Orc Quest; or, A Critical Examination of Agency Through in Interactive Fiction (Warcraft)

Couple of points, 1, I roll for specific things which may or may not be related to what you think they're for.

To explain further and for my own use:
Travel = 47, you arrive in decent time, and are able to delay Forneus
Encounter = 42, He's willing to stop and talk to you rahter than just squashing you and moving on
Discussion rolls, 11, 26,11, you arguments go poorly you're not able to convince him
Forneus = 6, but he's not really invested either, therefore you just get knocked out rather than him tearing about after you, but this also means he's not invested in killing you and you don't delay him as long
Damage? = 98, Orgrimmar smashed
Defences? = 5, goes very poorly, shaman unable to muster elements or something, not many people about
Thrall = 21, editing this to a more general roll
Feldad = 97, how fast does he get back, is he able to return to the city fast enough to take part in subsequent events, if that had been a low roll then he'd have been busy etc. He got such a high roll he did a Gul'dan and fought the elemental, as @Algalon observes this has various cultural effects to people's perception.

I'm aware that the rolls can be somewhat unclear sometimes, and I'm trying out a more structured system in my other quest, but for this it really helps me write the narrative based on the interactions between different groups.

2. On Feldad in general, blame blizz's writing on a lot of it. They literally replace Nerru with some other guy, also called Fireblade and with Neeru's quests and lines.
 
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Hunh.
So it sounds like the Shamans just lost EPIC FACE, with Fel getting some serious legitimacy...
I wonder, does this mean Orcs discovering the arts of the Demon Hunters?
 
yeah, so this is going to throw a real spanner in Thrall's plans

One could spin this as the fel practices spurring the elements into action and put the blame on the warlocks, but as it is, we've not only caused serious harm to our own clan, but we have also caused the capital to get completely wrecked.

One wonders what becomes of Durotar after something this massive.
 
Well shit, that went about as bad as we could have imagined...

sigh...****ing dice, why did you have to have only 2 above really good rolls in almost entirely the worst possible ****ing places!
 
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as @Algalon observes this has various cultural effects to people's perception.
I'm sure it will, but man. I'll be very disappointed in the orc's collective memories if they forget the giant demon war that was only what...6 years ago. Or the how the last time the warlocks got in charge it ended with them all in concentration camps.

Oh who am I kidding, the orcs are Blizzards designated "we need idiots" faction.

Somewhat reductionist, but hey ho.

I think you mean increasingly "drivel." But yes, hopefully you have something more planned for him. If nothing else canon Neru doesn't seem to have the oomph required to do a Gul'dan.

yeah, so this is going to throw a real spanner in Thrall's plans

One could spin this as the fel practices spurring the elements into action and put the blame on the warlocks, but as it is, we've not only caused serious harm to our own clan, but we have also caused the capital to get completely wrecked.

One wonders what becomes of Durotar after something this massive.
He can do that, but as the Orcs value actions over words and Neeru managed to save the city where Thrall didn't that speaks to them excessively larger than anything he's right about.

It likely doesn't help that Proudpeek etc. wasn't told about so the fact that it was us directly is even more obscured unless we talk about it...which we will hopefully.
 
the inherent danger of running a game with dice is that it can easily turn everything upside down. Even if you had the greatest plan of all time, the dice gods can completely route you on a whim.
 
the inherent danger of running a game with dice is that it can easily turn everything upside down. Even if you had the greatest plan of all time, the dice gods can completely route you on a whim.
I know, still dissapointing but c'est la vie.

We're not dead and (hopefully) we can fix this...or who knows maybe we'll keep Taylor Hebert "I'm Halping" our way to ever-escalating disaster.

Either or.

That said I've repeatedly stated my desire to get kicked out of the horde and current events mean that is 110% up in the air.
 
the inherent danger of running a game with dice is that it can easily turn everything upside down. Even if you had the greatest plan of all time, the dice gods can completely route you on a whim.
Eh, danger yes, but also part of the fun, I think that out of these rolls can come out a pretty good story.....although not necessarily one where we are victorious, defeat can be just as interesting to read as victory, so long as it isn't frustrating for the players of the quest it's fine. Honestly it was a giant rock elemental heading for the Capital City so it's not like I was expecting anything good to happen.

That said I've repeatedly stated my desire to get kicked out of the horde and current events mean that is 110% up in the air.
Yeah given our objective is to fight "For Azeroth",not having to deal with Horde politics could be a boon to us,letting us focus on helping where it's most needed rather than worrying about the constant skirmish and wars between horde and alliance.
 
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Yeah given our objective is to fight "For Azeroth",not having to deal with Horde politics could be a boon to us,letting us focus on helping where it's most needed rather than worrying about the constant skirmish and wars between horde and alliance.
This is true, however given that the horde is frequently the biggest threat to Azeroth on a meta level staying it is to try and minimise that could be a good thing.
 
This is true, however given that the horde is frequently the biggest threat to Azeroth on a meta level staying it is to try and minimise that could be a good thing.
Yeah not sure about that actually,we're very prone to following rules and respecting authority (like a lot of orcish culture as a whole) this works out somewhat when someone like Thrall is leading but given that horde leadership changes hands every couple of years or so and about half of the people who get it are crazed assholes with a murderboner the horde as a whole isn't really reliable as a force for good, of course that hinges on things going as they have in game, which as we have seen is not necessarily the case, maybe without Blizzard writing to hit the Warchief with the Villain or Death mallet every two expansions the horde could have a more consistent identity.
 
Yeah not sure about that actually,we're very prone to following rules and respecting authority (like a lot of orcish culture as a whole) this works out somewhat when someone like Thrall is leading but given that horde leadership changes hands every couple of years or so and about half of the people who get it are crazed assholes with a murderboner the horde as a whole isn't really reliable as a force for good, of course that hinges on things going as they have in game, which as we have seen is not necessarily the case, maybe without Blizzard writing to hit the Warchief with the Villain or Death mallet every two expansions the horde could have a more consistent identity.
I agree, hence the conditional as we're hopefully moving towards the view that the horde isn't something to follow.

That said we seem to have created the conditions for such a situation to arrise without needing to smash them with the idiot ball, since I doubt feldad would be a peace loving warchief.

Insert grumbling about blizzards shitty writing. Why even have Vo'jin if you're just going to kill him off after a single expansion where he does absolutely nothing!
 
The March of Forneus 3
"Go!" you call, making your fatal decision, "Go, I will delay him!"

"How?" Kartha exclaims in surprise, "One orc against a mountain!"

"There's no time!" you roar back, spurring your wolf forward, it's mouth panting, eyes wide with tiredness already. "Warn the city, if I die, I die, at least I do so with worth. Only I know enough about Forneus, you two between you can warn the Warchief."

Their protestations follow you down the scree slope as you steer your warg toward the river. With a bound your mount dives into it, paddling strongly as you swim alongside, long strokes with one hand still on the bridle. The water is foul and muddy, slow flowing as the silt of a hundred miles is carried along toward the sea and you almost feel as if the distraught earth is sucking you down before you finally reach the far bank and climb atop the wolf once again.

Where the Barrens have been set aflame, Durotar has been quenched. You ride amist the ruined hovels of harpy tribes, racing along the tops of massive ridges, now the new islands of the province. Already the floodwaters of the Southfury are draining away and in some places you see the marks of a higher tide, yet you still have to swim several more times, heading east across the old flats of the northern region. Forneus is ahead of you, rarely out of sight and some way off to your south and you know you'll be able to just about meet him while the giant is still slowed by narrow canyons and before he's able to get out onto the plains toward Orgrimmar.

Whatever you do, you have to delay the creature long enough for the capital's shaman to mount a defence. Whether they prepare some ritual to banish Forneus back to the Stonecore or whether they take some other course is useless to consider, you have too little understanding of Shamanism to even attempt an answer and truly even if you did, your mind wanders sluggishly as you barely manage to cling on as the wolf charges between stones and over the sundered landscape of the new Orcish homeland.

You can spend little thought on strategy on magic when every muscle aches, even your bones seeming to throb with pain as you ride on, sometimes filling your vision with blackness and once almost causing you to fall from your seat. After that you make yourself more secure, twisting the leather of the bridle around your hands so that in the short spaces the blackness returns you're still tied to the wolf.

The creature is hardly better. The animals of the Warsong are well known for their obedience and steadfastness but the journey is a taxing one for both of you and the wolf grows slower and slower, its mouth foaming, tongue lolling and when it tries to take some refreshment from a pool on the way you twist the reins again, having little time to waste, even if the pace kills the both of you.

And it almost does. The wolf's legs finally give out and it slows to a walk, then a pathetic shamble as you run alongside, shouting encouragement and at least trying to drag it back to strength, but ultimately failing. The fine beast slumps to the floor, eyes unfocused, it's breath coming in sporadic pants as you look on.

You turn away before it dies. You're far enough and you climb to the peak of a pillar of stone, naked but for the scraps of leather that you once wore as armour, battered and bloodied, exhausted.

Forneus is there. A immense triangular shape of crystal and stone, enormous geodes extruding from his body in apparently random projections, some perhaps possible to mistake for muscles and others utterly alien. In the dim light of soot-darkened sun the giant appears out of place, a creature from another world, some immense underground kingdom where he himself is a ruler, rather than an invader to the muck and dust of the overworld. His limbs are but suggestions amidst his massive bulk and had you expected merely a stony figure you'd find yourself mistaken when looking at this shining crystalline destroyer.

He looks at you. Or at least, many of the brighter crystals seem to face you, and although the ground shakes occasionally he appears still, perhaps he doesn't know what you are, you certainly wouldn't after all given your appearance.

"For-" you cough, your throat aflame, your lips cracked and bleeding, water denying itself to you. "Forneus!"

The mountain bows toward you, the crystals seeming to vibrate whether in excitement, curiosity, or merely anticipation of violence.

"Forneus!" you call again, "I am the one who called you! The Kolkar sent you here to face me! Can I purchase your departure with my death?"

You hadn't heard the voice of Proudpeak, rather you'd felt it in your boots, rippling up your legs and beating in your chest, the vibration of a spirit as great as your own.

This is different, this time you hear the grinding of boulders from below as the giant shifts, yet at the same time the crystals sing in elegant music as you hear the answer.

"Fleshling." the word comes as a brand, a disinterest and a distain from the being that could crush you as easily as breathing. "I come to serve my master, but no mortal calls me, from the noble to the base, whether elf or dwarf, not even the sons of demons."

Once again there's that phrase, the same the unnamed centaur shaman had used before his suicide. Were the Orcs truly so regarded?

"We are not the sons of demons!" you shout back, "We rose up from the earth, up from the Elements! The Forgers made us and we are their sons!"

Once again the crystals sing, this time in query. "Then name yourselves before me, name yourself before the earth."
Of all the things you'd expected you'd not thought to explain the history of Draenor. You'd thought you might perhaps try to gain a foothold on Forneus and distract him by climbing, or maybe even persuade him to retreat, offering your own life in barter. But no, instead you begin what is without doubt the most bizarre exposition of your life, standing bare atop this pillar as you speak of Grond and Gor-grond the Great, of the caves that spawned your people and the lines of Gruul the Dragoneater, of the Ogres of Highmaul and the burning of the Evergreen, of battles between Genesaur and Gronn and of your own place in the world.

Even if Forneus is uninterested you buy time. With each history as you speak you buy more time. A minute turns into ten, and ten to twenty and for each twitch of a crystal or wink of light you wonder how the Elemental perceives you.

"So why then, fleshling, do you stink of corruption?"

Again the crystals sing, this time in anger, in disharmony. You feel your chest constrict, the ground shaking beneath you and you fall to your knees, clinging onto the stone pillar as you shout back, bellowing the explanation, words streaming from your mouth as you explain the battle, the summoning of the Ur'zul and all that happened.

Then you look up, the crystals all around you like a cave. "All you do is futile, fleshling." the giant pronounces above you, "Not even if you lived ten thousand thousand years would you have seen the wonders I have. Not a single of your fleeting folk will ever matter. You scurry this way and that, your works utterly without meaning. All your kind have forgotten the Earth. I grant you your request, die now, die in failure, die forgotten."

The ground moves beneath you and without a moment to react you're falling. Rocks fall from above and though your abused body doesn't feel the impacts, your mind refusing to process the agony you know you should be feeling as blackness closes in.

You dream in the blackness. You watch as light leaps from the city, as Forneus swipes aside the great gate of Orgrimmar with a contemptuous hand, as shadows and fire leap from his form and all manner of creatures assail your people as the hallucinations grow more fanciful. You watch a great shadow stoop upon you like a doom.

The ground shakes and darkness takes you.
 
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TBH, I can't bring myself to follow this quest anymore, it's all the stupid bullshit about Blizzard and world shattering threats emerging from nowhere to ruin anything good about the setting except made even worse because a fig leaf is made to characterization instead of bouncing back and forth between "What will cause the most fighting?"

That this was probably the intended result doesn't make it any less infuriating to read. Because for all this this is quest theoretically about agency, the only thing that's been established so far is that expertise, ability, and planning don't matter because competence boils down to whatever the RNG spits out in a given day, and literally nobody has any margin for error or ability to adapt to a changing circumstance.

It seemed pretty interesting at the start, but any time I come back from work to see the shit has poured down even more because our MC and everyone around him except the Warlocks are useless. A discussion on Agency requires Agency to be an actual thing instead of driven entirely by dice rolls.
 
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TBH, I can't bring myself to follow this quest anymore, it's all the stupid bullshit about Blizzard and world shattering threats emerging from nowhere to ruin anything good about the setting except made even worse because a fig leaf is made to characterization instead of bouncing back and forth between "What will cause the most fighting?"

That this was probably the intended result doesn't make it any less infuriating to read. Because for all this this is quest theoretically about agency, the only thing that's been established so far is that expertise, ability, and planning don't matter because competence boils down to whatever the RNG spits out in a given day, and literally nobody has any margin for error or ability to adapt to a changing circumstance.

It seemed pretty interesting at the start, but any time I come back from work to see the shit has poured down even more because our MC and everyone around him except the Warlocks are useless. A discussion on Agency requires Agency to be an actual thing instead of driven entirely by dice rolls.
That's an interesting reflection so thanks for noting it. I think I've set things up sufficiently, particular the events of the last few chapters and how the various themes are active in the battle such as shamanism, colonialism and ways and means relating to fel magic.

As for agency, I agree agency has been significantly constrained, which is to the objective of the quest:

In my 'Agency Quest' therefore you'll be constrained by clan ties, by the time and resources you have to pursue your profession, by the reactions of other people toward you, and by the characteristics you establish in the MC
There's been comments from others regarding committing to particular actions to make the best use of time and the turn economy, particularly regarding the actions necessary to become a blademaster, there's been agency relating to the reactions of others and yes there are consequences to having no trait to be able to navigate more easily between competing obligations, there's constraints to clan ties because of all the BB stuff and there's the slowly established character of the MC who does or doesn't want to take certain actions based on both the chargen traits and also the ideals you've established in various actions like respect for tradition. A lot of the constraints stem from the leadership strata where I mentioned in chargen that it would have various obligations.

Regarding dice, I'll certainly admit I use them in a specific way rather than for certain purposes. This is partly deliberate, but it's also partly that this is my first quest. Some options are impossible or very difficult, for example a big rock monster was indeed going to be very damaging to anything it attacks, and you were always very unlikely to be able to just persuade it not to. Forneus has been issued a task, maybe if you got a crit success he would have turned around but that's a 1% chance.

I think agency is also represented in the interactions of others. Jubei'thos didn't just jump out from behind a bush and stab you, he planned and waited, he subverted locals and used them. Proudpeak didn't just sit around in your bag, he gathered his strength to try and break free from his captor. Events don't remain static just because you're not involved in them. Sometimes I'm explicit about this, like in the news update, other times I'm less specific and we proceed with hints and sometimes nothing at all.

But again, thanks for reading and glad you enjoyed at least some of it. If anyone else had reflections on the above let me know.
 
it's all the stupid bullshit about Blizzard and world shattering threats emerging from nowhere to ruin anything good about the setting
That's an interesting reflection so thanks for noting it. I think I've set things up sufficiently, particular the events of the last few chapters and how the various themes are active in the battle such as shamanism, colonialism and ways and means relating to fel magic.
The themes are welcome; I remember my disappointment with the Mass Effect game series, that set up an interesting galaxy with factions, alien species, complex environments, competing concerns etc. and then used it in a very 1-dimensional way to battle the Chtulu Mechatron 3000, a.k.a. the apocalyptic Reapers and their wight zombie husk armies.

Events don't remain static just because you're not involved in them.
That's cool.
Sometimes I'm explicit about this, like in the news update, other times I'm less specific and we proceed with hints and sometimes nothing at all.
That's... a bit less cool. I accept it, but I understand why people can feel frustrated about this, when things ambush us out of left field.
On the other hand, making things too explicit would reveal optimal choices too easily, and remove the necessity for reflection and discussion to find a good decision. It's difficult to make this perfectly balanced as all things should be. I would just remove the "nothing at all" cases.
 
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"There's no time!" you roar back, spurring your wolf forward, it's mouth foaming, eyes wide with exhaustion already.
its
the wolf grows sower and slower, its' mouth foaming
slower, its

Hm, I wonder what could have made Forneus interested enough, even in a negative way, to delay the assault on the city. Was this a choice at all? If it was, how would it have gone on a more successful attempt to produce the result desired by the players* (exempting crit successes and other unlikely events).

* stemming from the actions they take. If the city handled its defense better, it would be a desired result, but the players would have little say in it, and so it doesn't count.
 
My view's that I'm OK with this, I am dissapointed that the dice screwed us, but I'm not upset with it because well that was my choice and my consequence. Its the same reason I wasn't annoyed by Jub we knew he was coming.

Furthermore, the rolls are a thing that's always going to be problematic. In my experience the players are always going to think the DCs are too high and the bonuses too small compared to what the QM thinks, which is why I'm just going to assume you've been generally reasonable.

My main issue has generally been along the same lines as @Netos and the rule of cool stuff.

That's... a bit less cool. I accept it, but I understand why people can feel frustrated about this, when things ambush us out of left field.
On the other hand, making things too explicit would reveal optimal choices too easily, and remove the necessity for reflection and discussion to find a good decision. It's difficult to make this perfectly balanced as all things should be. I would just remove the "nothing at all" cases.

But I've already blathered about it at length. Yes it is very tricky to balance properly, if for no other reason than there's a lot of things to remember and its unreasonable to expect the QM to remember every possible thing.

Like for this update, my only irritation* was that seemingly the only other person who got the opportunity to intervene after Thrall was Feldad, but I didn't mention it because I am assuming its for additional drama later. If he'd done badly if he did well or even if he did averagely.

*edit, in hindsight I've realised no I do have another much bigger irritation.

And yeah I do like the deeper role-playing aspect, I certainly prefer it. My fear is that the rule of cool thing is that its essentially robs us of the ability to roleplay by knowledge of its inclusion. See here, I did do my best to justify why we'd do this in character, the problem is that I also picked it cause I felt it'd be cool and I was hoping that I could get bonuses to our DCs because it hoped it'd be cool.

I probably won't be doing that in the future cause so far every time we've tried to do that the dice have just said "how about you can't roll over a 6 ever please and thank you" (this is me letting out some of my salt at your stupid blasted dice), and I'm a superstitious enough person to know when to an idea is cursed.

Yeah, I guess that was another complaint. The intent was never to persuade him to back down I felt that I had made that perfectly clear, the talking was meant as at best a hopeful distraction, but with the knowledge that actually talking him down was near impossible. At the same time though, we didn't even get a chance to try and dodge. I suppose I do understand it we're a level 10 max going up against a boss, but even that can be kited. I dunno, just felt disappointing we didn't even get the chance to try, even if I understand why you didn't do it.

I guess to go back to the rule of cool, I proposed the plan with the expectation of doing a cool thing, it seemed like you were behind that cool thing and we might be able to do cool thing, so even though it was essentially impossible (like say flying a wyvern through a cataclysmic thunder storm), we might be allowed to do it.

But instead we got splatted.

Ok thinking on it, yes that I do find frustrating and consider more evidence for why I feel the rule of cool thing distorts expectations of the quest. We don't know the boundaries for what you consider personally cool enough to allow shit through.

The themes are welcome; I remember my disappointment with the Mass Effect game series, that set up an interesting galaxy with factions, alien species, complex environments, competing concerns etc. and then used it in a very 1-dimensional way to battle the Chtulu Mechatron 3000, a.k.a. the apocalyptic Reapers and their wight zombie husk armies.
I feel you brother.

Hm, I wonder what could have made Forneus interested enough, even in a negative way, to delay the assault on the city. Was this a choice at all? If it was, how would it have gone on a more successful attempt to produce the result desired by the players* (exempting crit successes and other unlikely events).
Eh lot of evil shit we could have done, but as it reads now we fundamentally had no option to even try and do the kiting thing I wanted to do. As far as I can tell the only option we had was to draw him into debate, which I am now annoyed over, because I predicated my entire plan on "talk first, then dodge until he haymakers us." Instead it seems the roll was "how much effort does he put into killing you" which means that no matter what we did we were going down barring a crit fail from him.

In fact it seems like a low roll was better for him than a high one, since the implication seems to be he'd have wasted a few more seconds ensuring we were compressed flat as a pancake before stomping onwards.
 
he apocalyptic Reapers and their wight zombie husk armies.
To be fair, although if you remove the Reapers the narrative doesn't change that much, it does become essentially a standard space sci fi. It would presumably be either a human-council war or the geth or someone else messing about. The reapers provide a narrative thread to situate everyone along and develop over time, yes it ended poorly, I don't think anyone really contests that, but while it was going it worked. It goes back to Tolkein really and the idea of a single villain that's generally responsible for evil in the world.
That's... a bit less cool. I accept it, but I understand why people can feel frustrated about this, when things ambush us out of left field.
On the other hand, making things too explicit would reveal optimal choices too easily, and remove the necessity for reflection and discussion to find a good decision. It's difficult to make this perfectly balanced as all things should be. I would just remove the "nothing at all" cases.
It's tricky. For example, say I had a big Kul Tiran fleet show up with the same foreshadowing of people mentioning they were about and were troublesome in the past, how would that have gone down? There'd be no specific intelligence by the character to know that such a thing might occur and therefore no expectation, so I think it would have been received poorly. For example, even if (as indeed I have) I indicated the canonical information that there's a missing Kul Tiran fleet somewhere in Kalimdor, this would really fall into the 'nothing at all' category.
Was this a choice at all? If it was, how would it have gone on a more successful attempt to produce the result desired by the players* (exempting crit successes and other unlikely events).

* stemming from the actions they take. If the city handled its defense better, it would be a desired result, but the players would have little say in it, and so it doesn't count.
For action that you yourself could have taken, there are certainly very few. The only thing I could think of was the whole 'overdose on sapta and hope that helps or something'. You're trying to go up against a big rock monster. You're very unlikely to persuade it because it doesn't care what you think and only finds you mildly amusing, and you're not a top tier wizard so you can't really fight it. You did however manage to delay it
the rule of cool stuff.
I'll note that I've rather consciously stepped back from this. Somewhat of a miscommunication on my part as although yes I'll indulge ambitious plans, I don't want to have you trying to guess what I'll think is cool etc. Make your decisions on your own logic not some model of my amusement. I'll also say that I realised as I was writing this that the fight against Forneus wasn't really the climatic confrontation of the arc and adapted accordingly.
seemingly the only other person who got the opportunity to intervene after Thrall was Feldad, but I didn't mention it because I am assuming its for additional drama later. If he'd done badly if he did well or even if he did averagely.
Like who? The Trolls in Org? The arc has been about the challenges navigating the clan vs horde, shaman vs fel divide. I agree there were others who could have come up but that kind of ruins the theme if the conclusion is 'a third party resolved the issue'
Yeah, I guess that was another complaint. The intent was never to persuade him to back down I felt that I had made that perfectly clear, the talking was meant as at best a hopeful distraction, but with the knowledge that actually talking him down was near impossible. At the same time though, we didn't even get a chance to try and dodge. I suppose I do understand it we're a level 10 max going up against a boss, but even that can be kited. I dunno, just felt disappointing we didn't even get the chance to try, even if I understand why you didn't do it.
So on this, there were 3 aspects of the confrontation, firstly persuasion, secondly self sacrifice and thirdly delay. The first two didn't work, the third definitely did. You delayed him for a reasonable amount of time in which Thrall did his preparations doing shaman things and Feldad flew back to your position to involve himself. As for dodging, you fought a battle for a day, taking injuries, then got stabbed and thrown off a mountain, then marched for a week and finally rode rode across broken ground for 3 days, occasionally blacking out as you did so because of your fatigue etc, yes in theory you could have dodged but the delay was already accomplished so I didn't really think it necessary to include in the narrative.

And on a more general point, yes you delayed Forneus, yes Thrall still didn't do well in defending the city with the other shaman. Reasons for victories and defeats are often complex. It reminds me of a paper I wrote a couple of years ago about the Spanish Armada. The Armada had unsuitable tactics, equipment, leadership, and also the weather against them. In quest terms you might look at a roll for each, but even if they had really good leadership and 'you' the character led them well, if you get blown off course by weather you can't control that still causes failures. Here you managed to delay Forneus for at least half an hour. That's probably enough time to carry a ballista across the city or get the goblins to make a big bomb or something, but the point being despite the delay the actual battle is out of your control.
 
To be fair, although if you remove the Reapers the narrative doesn't change that much, it does become essentially a standard space sci fi. It would presumably be either a human-council war or the geth or someone else messing about. The reapers provide a narrative thread to situate everyone along and develop over time, yes it ended poorly, I don't think anyone really contests that, but while it was going it worked. It goes back to Tolkein really and the idea of a single villain that's generally responsible for evil in the world.
Eh. IMO I wanted something more akin to James Bond in space I guess.

Its not so much that I dislike it, more that the most boring part of the games was typically the reapers. If they'd found a solution that wasn't choose your scoop of laser beam then I'm sure there'd be much less grumbling.

And that's the thing though, I love Tolkien's books, but I don't think it should be taken too much that way. More that one villian can funnel the evil of the world, but evil is kinda endemic too the world, even taking away the whole concept of Morgoth's ring.

It's tricky. For example, say I had a big Kul Tiran fleet show up with the same foreshadowing of people mentioning they were about and were troublesome in the past, how would that have gone down? There'd be no specific intelligence by the character to know that such a thing might occur and therefore no expectation, so I think it would have been received poorly. For example, even if (as indeed I have) I indicated the canonical information that there's a missing Kul Tiran fleet somewhere in Kalimdor, this would really fall into the 'nothing at all' category.
A large part of it is the personal element. If a large Kul Tiran fleet shows up on top of us with the MC as a specific target for them to want to kill with no IC indication that this might happen so we're suddenly drowning in ninjas, then it'd be one thing. On the other hand if a Kul Tiran fleet shows up, the horde reacts because it knew that it might happen and we're a target cause we're a combatant, a clan heir and have messed with them in the past then its quite another.

Its also another thing if we had options that could have gotten the information that this might happen and we didn't pick it. Some QMs I know tend to start hint dropping that something might happen in advance, and if we still don't notice until it smacks us over the head then that's on us.

I'll also say that I realised as I was writing this that the fight against Forneus wasn't really the climatic confrontation of the arc and adapted accordingly.
So it was intended as such? Huh...

I assumed the climax was always going to be talky talky to either Thrall or Feldad.

Like who? The Trolls in Org? The arc has been about the challenges navigating the clan vs horde, shaman vs fel divide. I agree there were others who could have come up but that kind of ruins the theme if the conclusion is 'a third party resolved the issue'
Which is a thing you do have to confront. Which bends more for which, the events or the narrative. As you said just because we are not personally involved doesn't mean that things won't keep happening and just because the narrative is there doesn't mean that other characters who are entirely unrelated to it can't get involved with the events happening because of it.

On the specific thing narrative in this case, if you wanted a vs horde part then the horde is made up of many more than just the orcs right now. To Grok personally and the Orcs as a whole having one of the other horde member races come in to save the day surely is also speaks to the themes of what you are going for there, as would say the big save being done by some one like high priest Zayus Zayus since it would introduce to Grok in a more direct manner that there's the shaman fel divide but there are more things than just that.

So on this, there were 3 aspects of the confrontation, firstly persuasion, secondly self sacrifice and thirdly delay. The first two didn't work, the third definitely did. You delayed him for a reasonable amount of time in which Thrall did his preparations doing shaman things and Feldad flew back to your position to involve himself. As for dodging, you fought a battle for a day, taking injuries, then got stabbed and thrown off a mountain, then marched for a week and finally rode rode across broken ground for 3 days, occasionally blacking out as you did so because of your fatigue etc, yes in theory you could have dodged but the delay was already accomplished so I didn't really think it necessary to include in the narrative.

And on a more general point, yes you delayed Forneus, yes Thrall still didn't do well in defending the city with the other shaman. Reasons for victories and defeats are often complex. It reminds me of a paper I wrote a couple of years ago about the Spanish Armada. The Armada had unsuitable tactics, equipment, leadership, and also the weather against them. In quest terms you might look at a roll for each, but even if they had really good leadership and 'you' the character led them well, if you get blown off course by weather you can't control that still causes failures. Here you managed to delay Forneus for at least half an hour. That's probably enough time to carry a ballista across the city or get the goblins to make a big bomb or something, but the point being despite the delay the actual battle is out of your control.
Which as I said was reasonable. The only reason I thought the "dodge wildly" part of it was possible was because I was working from the assumption that we might have some heroic second wind then get turned into a pan cake because I was trying to operate on rule of cool logic.

As for delaying, thing is I didn't think we delayed him much at all. At least going by what you said above
Forneus = 6, but he's not really invested either, therefore you just get knocked out rather than him tearing about after you, but this also means he's not invested in killing you and you don't delay him as long
We don't delay him as long. + with those crap tier diplo rolls I wasn't exactly assuming we managed to get much of a conversation in either. I don't know if I merely missed it, or if it was added in later, but I didn't think we managed to keep his attention for 30 minutes.

Anyway back on topic, I get what you mean about not wanting to include it, but at least from a never giving up point of view/interest point it would have been neat to see. Hell even a meta point of view our goal is to delay as long as possible, an extra few seconds might be meaningless, but you never can tell.

Anyway as for your last point I'm not sure I get why you included it? I know that the reasons for victories and defeats are complicated and what's more we were well aware that regardless of what we did we were going to have no direct impact on the final battle, that was known pretty much the second we fell off the mountain.

I'm disappointed Thrall fluffed it, and hope in the future the dice give us a bit more favour for once but I always knew that might happen and that it was out of our control beyond the things we could have done and did.

That said with what Forneaus said...mmm seems like the main information we could have given Thrall is the scale of Fel Shenanigans going on since that seems to have been Forneaus's biggest gripe about the orcs personally. Forneaus seems to give no damns about Proudpeek, or care for the Kolkar in particular while we do not know who his master is (and at the time did not know he even had one).
 
Which is a thing you do have to confront
fair point, I'll have a think. In a few chapters you'll choose the next arc and it's content so I'll think about the themes of that one and how best to consider them.
As for delaying, thing is I didn't think we delayed him much at all. At least going by what you said above
A minute turns into ten, and ten to twenty and for each twitch of a crystal or wink of light you wonder how the Elemental perceives you.
You got about half an hour, which was decent in term so delaying given your capabilities
Anyway as for your last point I'm not sure I get why you included it?
Ah that wasn't specific to you, more to a couple of other points that had come up
 
Personally I have no problem with how this update turned out unlike the last one, despite the fact that the rolls have still made it turn out pretty badly, here I expected that things would turn out badly, and depending on the rolls catastrophically bad, I didn't think even for a second we'd be able to stop Forneaus or even meaningfully delay him for too long, frankly the fact that we survived (I assume we did atleast) and delayed him for a good half an hour is probably better than I was expecting.

Sure the dice decided that Forneaus would smash Orgrimmar and made Thrall be more ineffective but honestly I don't feel frustrated by the results, after all it's not like we could affect the what happened to Orgrimmar too much (except I guess by stopping Forneaus completely but that was basically impossible), if we could go back and vote again I'd probably still vote for the same plan.

I think the lesson here is that a lot of frustration can be avoided by properly managing the audience's expectations.
That said I want to thank you for calmly taking in criticism, some authors just can't deal with that and it really limits their ability to improve, despite some of the problems that I've mentioned in previous posts I'm still enjoying the quest which is not a bad result for your first quest.
 
That said I want to thank you for calmly taking in criticism, some authors just can't deal with that and it really limits their ability to improve, despite some of the problems that I've mentioned in previous posts I'm still enjoying the quest which is not a bad result for your first quest.
Hear hear.

Thrall be more ineffective
On a personal level I do find this quite distressing, I like Thrall a lot compared to most of warcraft's protagonists :(
 
The March of Forneus 4
In your sleep you dream. Blue masks, fiery hands, a headless wolf and a shrieking hawk, meaningless symbols as your unconscious thoughts replay the events of the last few weeks. The spectres of the past haunt you, the death of Akinos replaying in your mind a dozen ways. In your dreams you somehow fly back toward the mountain and strike the shadow down, raise up the fallen and win the battle. In other dreams you walk a desolate land bearing a heavy burden, the straps of a pack biting into your shoulders, menaced by deadly beasts and hounded by enemies.

You dream of all this, but eventually you wake.

The world is dark and smoky and you think for a moment that you're still dreaming, that you're still back on Deadmist's ruined peak, but then somehow you know you're awake.

You know better than to try and raise yourself from the bed and as your mind reaches for wakefulness you check your body, flexing each muscle a little, feeling the twinges and bindings on your limbs as marks of your injuries. Your belly throbs in pain and there's a hard cast around your arm and shoulder.

You are, however, alive.

It's more that you hoped for and for a time you simply lie there in contemplation. Clearly someone had recovered you from the battlefield, which you reflected was the second time that had happened in two weeks. Had you managed to delay Forneus long enough?

It's a strange feeling but you simply can't muster up the will to care.

You feel empty. Your body aches and you feel the urge to move from a dozen pains that have made themselves apparent in the short time you've been conscious but while the physical world pokes at you it's difficult to bring yourself back to it.

You'd gone to confront Forneus fully expecting to die. You'd been in a daze for many days before the battle, first that brawl in darkness, the howling wind in your ears, your boots slushing with blood as you waded through the centaur, sword rising and falling in abandon, slaying anything within reach. Then came the horror on the mountaintop, then the duel against the shadow, then the fall, the wakening, the march, the Crossroads, the frantic ride and the fires and the floods and the pillar… the second fall.

The events flash through your mind again and you slip back into nightmare, the sensations of the days coming to you again. You feel the throb in your gut where Jubei'thos stabbed you, the graze on your left side from a spear of one of the centaur chiefs, the ache across your body from the wild gallop through the devastation of Durotar.

And most of all the guilt which eats at your heart. The deaths of your warriors, of your mentor and no doubt of all the people who'd been affected by this… Cataclysm.

You've passed through grief to such an extent that you simply feel empty. As if all your ambitions and dreams have gone out of you.

You comprehend that something is wrong but you simply can't grasp at it, you don't have the will to do so. Instead there's only what comes next. What is the next step? The one after that?

You open your eyes again, your breathing slowing. You recognise this place now, not the ruin of Dreadmist but simply your family's dwelling in Orgrimmar. There's a hint of light under the walls and around the door, and in the gloom you see items moving on their own, a shadow slipping between them.

"Demon." you speak in a raspy whisper, "Fetch my father."
 
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