None of the landowners you lodged with were all too pleased with your presence, but none dared to do anything about it. They feed you basic vittles, gave you beer to drink, and let you rest your heads under their roofs, but nothing more than that.
Did we not pay the landowners anything for letting us stay? I thought we just needed a place with walls and a roof to sleep in and I expected us to use our own food and drink for the night.

This sounds like we just rocked up to a dudes house and expected him to feed a dozen people. They probably thought they'd get beaten up if they refused.
 
Did we not pay the landowners anything for letting us stay? I thought we just needed a place with walls and a roof to sleep in and I expected us to use our own food and drink for the night.

This sounds like we just rocked up to a dudes house and expected him to feed a dozen people. They probably thought they'd get beaten up if they refused.

Hospitality is standard in this time period, as it has to be or people can't travel.

That said, 1 Food is enough to feed one person for 2 months, so 60 days of Food, and they're feeding us for only one night. Even if they feed us very well, it costs them, like, 2 Food at most to do, and they get Orthstirr for it. We'd happily give 2 Food for some Orthstirr, as would most people who aren't operating on very narrow margins indeed.

Looked at in a more in-universe way (as opposed to mechanics), we're not stopping at small farms with three people, we're stopping at sizeable ones with, like, 15-20. Feeding us requires them to spend 5-6 normal days worth of food in one day, which is certainly not nothing, but it's also not a huge problem unless they were gonna be operating on real narrow margins this winter. In exchange they get a reputation as generous and a good host, which is pretty useful and important. And, as this is a cultivation world, some Orthstirr to reflect that.
 
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"No need. I know you and I know that you'll go ask someone else if I don't tell you myself," he sighs and hooks thumbs into his belt, the breeze playing through his red hair, "You wanna know what Steel is?" He snorts, letting his head dangle from side to side as he takes a deep breath, "Steel is the antithesis of progress. Steel is stagnancy made manifest, the physical status quo of existence. It doesn't change, it doesn't grow, it simply is."

"Thats..." you frown, struggling to wrap your head around it, "I don't understand."

The sky darkens as the sun fails to rise. Shadows drape themselves off Sten's body as he looms like a specter in the night, suddenly towering over you like the mountains in the distance.

"You wanna know what the the Price of Steel is?" He whispers, time seeming to stutter to a halt as your heartrate picks up to an ear-splitting pitch. "It's you," he pokes you in the chest. "It's me," he drives a thumb into himself, his eyes never leaving yours for even a moment. "It's all of our children," he waves a hand across the ship, gesturing at each and every thing he speaks of, "It's the very ground beneath our feet. It's the air we breathe. It's every damn blade of grass growing in every damn field! The Price of Steel, the price to lock the present in place," he drives a finger towards the heavens as hundreds of headless fish bob in the churning waves, "is the future!"
Living and growing, accepting that one day you will die and helping the next generation grow beyond what you could ever achieve, and understanding that there are many different ways to be a Dreng you may not even know about yet.
That is the lifestyle following from
  1. Power Requires Sacrifice.
  2. All Men Die.
  3. Memory Is Forever.
that is the biggest and most enduring antithesis to Steel.

Personally, I think in an ideal world, we might have hoped was the secret of Steel's creation would contain some kind of riddle which could provide leads on destroying it. This isn't quite that, but it does tell us a lot. The antithesis of Steel is... creation, innovation and more broadly, change?

Honestly, my difficulty putting that into a plan of action is less finding an option, and more that there are quite a few. Halla has already done at least one project which qualifies here in terms of creating the book, and if we manage to create a Norse version of Knightly Armour, then we'll have created two genuine innovations. But how do we use those to destroy Steel? Do we somehow... think about them and use that to help us gain a burning will to resist stagnation that empowers us or something? That honestly might not be impossible, but I don't know what the best ways to experiment with it could be.

Alternately, you know what else is unambiguously a force for change and allowing new growth? Destruction. The fires of Ragnarök, for example, will usher in a new age and end the old. So it feels like the Blackhand answer to all problems of "Skill issue: Use hotter fire." would also apply here. Which seems diametrically opposed to using creation, but fundamentally destruction and creation are two faces of the same coin - whilst stagnation is more about not letting the coin be flipped at all.

I'm less stumped on an approach so much as trying to figure out how this narrows down the field.
The way to defeat Steel?
Hurt it, again and again.
How to hurt it?
By being change more strongly than it is stagnation.

Every secret of true cultivation liberated (think shapecrafting, berserkr, Seers) is a scratch on Steel, a wound on the Enemy.
The bigger the secret the longer the scratch. The more widely available the liberated secret the deeper the scratch (since it is less of a secret -> more of a change from being a secret).

Break the circle of 'growing strong and it all ending with death' and turn it into an upwards spiral by spreading the secrets so they can't be lost with the death of an organization like a warband, so that the grows of the next turn starts standing on you shoulder, rather than in your position.

(This is before getting into creative approaches to dealing with Steelfathers which don't involve directly destroying Steel, which is arguably a totally separate line of research.)
Iirc Steelfathers cut themselves off of the circle of Orth by becoming Steel, using their masked followers participating in the circle in their stead to be able to gain Orth again.

There we got a weakness.
Remove their masked followers (easier said than done, I bet they are still hard to kill, but not protected by Steelness like the Steelfather).

This is pure speculation, but it could be that a Steelfather without masked followers is cut off from regenerating Orth and weaving aspects to cultivate to regain Odr.

So kill all their masked and they are cut off from regeneration until they gain new masked. So If we manage to make them waste their Orth &Odr they'd be reduced to their passive effects.
 
This is pure speculation, but it could be that a Steelfather without masked followers is cut off from regenerating Orth and weaving aspects to cultivate to regain Odr.

So kill all their masked and they are cut off from regeneration until they gain new masked. So If we manage to make them waste their Orth &Odr they'd be reduced to their passive effects.
It seems unlikely to me. I think they would still be able to regain their existing Orth upon usage and just be unable to get more Orth from deeds and such. I feel that the purpose of their masked followers is to gain Orth so they can then give some of that Orth to the Steelfather like how Farbjorn gave Halla some of his Orth. I'm not sure about Odr, but it might just work like normal since getting Odr is dependent on your Orth.
 
This is pure speculation, but it could be that a Steelfather without masked followers is cut off from regenerating Orth and weaving aspects to cultivate to regain Odr.

So kill all their masked and they are cut off from regeneration until they gain new masked. So If we manage to make them waste their Orth &Odr they'd be reduced to their passive effects.

I don't buy it. We know of Steelfathers who go without a retinue (Careful Stepper, most notably). That's viable even with not gaining Orthstirr, but your pool has to refill or it wouldn't happen.
 
why do we even think Steelfathers can't get orth?

We long speculated that, but IF confirmed it on Discord recently that they can only do so by proxy via their Ironmasks.

Careful Stepper has no masked at all?
OK, that throws a wrench in that hypothesis.

From what we've heard he wanders around by himself. So...probably not? We haven't technically had that confirmed but given his description I'd be real surprised if he did.
 
why do we even think Steelfathers can't get orth?
I believe it was suspected before due to relying upon their retinue to give them Orth and them cheating the Rules of Norse Cultivation. Now with the knowledge about how Steel works, it is basically confirmed that they can't get Orth on their own because they are locked in stasis and unable to change, which can be good aka not dying or bad aka not getting more Orth.
 
Did we not pay the landowners anything for letting us stay? I thought we just needed a place with walls and a roof to sleep in and I expected us to use our own food and drink for the night.

This sounds like we just rocked up to a dudes house and expected him to feed a dozen people. They probably thought they'd get beaten up if they refused.

That's why we have to have a lot of success at being Silver Tongued to not fuck it up, yeah. We are convincing them that its worth their time and effort to house and feed us for a night.

There might be an implicit level of 'if I don't follow through they'll attack me for it' but I doubt it. If so, you'd think convincing them to let us stay would get easier with more people, not harder. Since we probably far outnumber them and are mostly all armed and armored.


If we were more of an asshole we might have been able to even do just that, but its not really Halla's MO.
 
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If so, you'd think convincing them to let us stay would get easier with more people, not harder. Since we probably far outnumber them and are mostly all armed and armored.
I think more people would still be harder. Yes they are more likely to lose a fight, but we are taking more food. Depending on how lean their larder is they might not have enough to keep their family fed, which makes them more willing to start a fight on that tiny chance they win or we back down.
 
Hospitality is standard in this time period, as it has to be or people can't travel.

That said, 1 Food is enough to feed one person for 2 months, so 60 days of Food, and they're feeding us for only one night. Even if they feed us very well, it costs them, like, 2 Food at most to do, and they get Orthstirr for it. We'd happily give 2 Food for some Orthstirr, as would most people who aren't operating on very narrow margins indeed.

Looked at in a more in-universe way (as opposed to mechanics), we're not stopping at small farms with three people, we're stopping at sizeable ones with, like, 15-20. Feeding us requires them to spend 5-6 normal days worth of food in one day, which is certainly not nothing, but it's also not a huge problem unless they were gonna be operating on real narrow margins this winter. In exchange they get a reputation as generous and a good host, which is pretty useful and important. And, as this is a cultivation world, some Orthstirr to reflect that.
The way I figure it, on the one hand, you're right.

On the other hand, we're rolling up to these farms with a force that would make a pretty tough raiding party in its own right. So there's got to be some anxiety about whether our intentions are fully honest. About whether we're going to make offers they can't refuse. About whether, say, Helma Smiles isn't going to ravish one of the farmers' daughters. And so on, and so on.

The reason hospitality has to be so strongly enforced in this culture is because a lot of shit can go wrong very fast when large groups of heavily armed Norsemen roll up on a much smaller group of relatively civilianized Norsemen. For that to have a good ending, you need pretty strong restrictions on what can be allowed to happen, thus the strictures of hospitality... But that doesn't mean everyone isn't aware of all the shit that could go wrong.

From what we've heard he wanders around by himself. So...probably not? We haven't technically had that confirmed but given his description I'd be real surprised if he did.
Maybe he's just relying on passive orthstirr trickle from his deeds and reputation that he had before becoming a Steelfather.

As I understand it, Halla has an orthstirr pool that refills relatively rapidly, and gets a passive trickle from her good reputation and feats which causes her pool to grow over time. If Careful Stepper's pool can't grow, maybe he's at least still getting a flow of orthstirr from his existing passive trickle, which can refill his pool as he spends it.

As a Steelfather, he's got high damage reduction and general survivability in a fight. If he's cultivated a style of fighting which is orthstirr-efficient and is intentional about the kinds of fights he gets into, and if he's got a big and longstanding enough reputation, something like that might work... But it'd still be very slow orthstirr recharge rate compared to what a powerful warrior who isn't Steel would enjoy.
 
As a Steelfather, he's got high damage reduction and general survivability in a fight. If he's cultivated a style of fighting which is orthstirr-efficient and is intentional about the kinds of fights he gets into, and if he's got a big and longstanding enough reputation, something like that might work... But it'd still be very slow orthstirr recharge rate compared to what a powerful warrior who isn't Steel would enjoy.
You can get extremely orthficient with good enough stats. High levels of Hugr and Hugr Infusions can be very scary, and if you're inherently immune to everything you can just attack and don't bother defending.
 
I can't recall the theory, unfortunately
That d__n time-traveling sky-train getting interacted with by Halla's ancestors in a Named Character way, with a side of potential folklorical distortion as past conforms to current beliefs, thus turning the roaring starship(?) into a fire-belching flying beast with "scales" tougher than iron through the power of Cultural Warp.
 
The way to defeat Steel?
Hurt it, again and again.
How to hurt it?
By being change more strongly than it is stagnation.

Every secret of true cultivation liberated (think shapecrafting, berserkr, Seers) is a scratch on Steel, a wound on the Enemy.
The bigger the secret the longer the scratch. The more widely available the liberated secret the deeper the scratch (since it is less of a secret -> more of a change from being a secret).

Break the circle of 'growing strong and it all ending with death' and turn it into an upwards spiral by spreading the secrets so they can't be lost with the death of an organization like a warband, so that the grows of the next turn starts standing on you shoulder, rather than in your position.

I mean sure, this is all well and good on a philosophical level, and obviously we do want to do this. The grander struggle of progress passed on to the next generation fighting against stagnation is something I think we're all signed up for. It's something Halla has already made significant strides towards, and I will continue to do so for as long as she's able.

But I was speaking on a bit more of a practical level. We know that Blackhand and many other people can actually kill Steelfathers and physically melt or otherwise destroy Steel, which is more what we're shooting towards here.
 
I mean sure, this is all well and good on a philosophical level, and obviously we do want to do this. The grander struggle of progress passed on to the next generation fighting against stagnation is something I think we're all signed up for. It's something Halla has already made significant strides towards, and I will continue to do so for as long as she's able.

But I was speaking on a bit more of a practical level. We know that Blackhand and many other people can actually kill Steelfathers and physically melt or otherwise destroy Steel, which is more what we're shooting towards here.
We need something that has a conceptual oomph relevant against Stasis/Stagnation/Stagnant. That should be enough to start work on it.

Either that or start working on the mind whammy parts of Seidr.
 
But I was speaking on a bit more of a practical level. We know that Blackhand and many other people can actually kill Steelfathers and physically melt or otherwise destroy Steel, which is more what we're shooting towards here.
I mean, I wouldn't say many people. Im not even sure who can do it, beside Blackhand and other Steelfathers. not saying we can't or shouldn't find a way, but its not exactly a common ability.

in a way, Blackhand already greatly changed steel's stasis. killing the steelfathers he did explicitly shifted balance of power in the norselands
 
We long speculated that, but IF confirmed it on Discord recently that they can only do so by proxy via their Ironmasks.



From what we've heard he wanders around by himself. So...probably not? We haven't technically had that confirmed but given his description I'd be real surprised if he did.
Then i retract my retraction of the hypothesis.
That he wanders around by himself isn't evidence that he doesn't have masked people sending him Orth.


I mean sure, this is all well and good on a philosophical level, and obviously we do want to do this. The grander struggle of progress passed on to the next generation fighting against stagnation is something I think we're all signed up for. It's something Halla has already made significant strides towards, and I will continue to do so for as long as she's able.
I'm not convinced that we really are on the same page with that.
Those strides could just as well be towards establishing just another cult. To keep it among friends to grow stronger as just another main character with flashy battles.

But I was speaking on a bit more of a practical level. We know that Blackhand and many other people can actually kill Steelfathers and physically melt or otherwise destroy Steel, which is more what we're shooting towards here.
Not many.
And its probably higher cultivation levels using extreme levels of dakka or having a part of the weapon.
 
Those strides could just as well be towards establishing just another cult. To keep it among friends to grow stronger as just another main character with flashy battles.
I personally want to spread the knowledge far and wide, damn the consequences, but I think others have different ideas.
 
I'd be happy with spreading cultivation knowledge as long as we can be reasonably sure that nobody is going to use it against us.

Then we can't spread it, beyond a cult, and we are back to square one.

We are Norse. If we spread it, truly spread it on even a minor cultural scale? Someone we fight, some place, some time, will be able to make use of it.

There's just… too many, and too violent.
 
I'd be happy with spreading cultivation knowledge as long as we can be reasonably sure that nobody is going to use it against us.
Pretty much Shine said.

The only way to ensure knowledge will not be used against us is to clamp down on the knowledge utterly and selfishly, using it only for our own personal advancement and nobody else's.
 
Then we can't spread it, beyond a cult, and we are back to square one.

We are Norse. If we spread it, truly spread it on even a minor cultural scale? Someone we fight, some place, some time, will be able to make use of it.

There's just… too many, and too violent.

Pretty much Shine said.

The only way to ensure knowledge will not be used against us is to clamp down on the knowledge utterly and selfishly, using it only for our own personal advancement and nobody else's.
And that's my big issue with spreading knowledge far and wide.

We're going to fight a lot of Odr cultivators and it's going to be all our own fault.
 
And that's my big issue with spreading knowledge far and wide.

We're going to fight a lot of Odr cultivators and it's going to be all our own fault .

Yes.

It will be our fault. And yes, that philosophy will keep our family safe and secure and prosperous, and that is a good and worthy thing to strive for, and I will not fault it.

That philosophy is also one reason why Norse cultivation will go extinct, because its strongest members refuse to improve it.

Obviously, I want our family to be safe and happy, but the point of the game… is not that.

In fact, I would eve argue that that caution… is against the themes of this quest.

Everyone will die. You will die, I will die, and our family will die, sooner, later, and we cannot run from it. It is right and natural to be afraid of death.. but that attitude is useless, and it holds us back from our explicit goal.

Yes, to pursue this path is dangerous, but we are Norse. Isn't embracing risk for glory, for a real and lasting legacy… the ideal?
 
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