Time for Stigmar to get a massive power up in the form of learning to harness something ancient.

Or maybe just from gaining self confidence after knowing his family is, in fact, great, and he has the blood of greats too!
 
[X] Speak with Hasvir Hadingshero

Whatever Mom's relatives might warn us about is probably less of a big deal than knowing how to seal away Drysalt, if only because of how much of a pain in the ass Drysalt is if you don't know how to do that.
 
[X] Speak with Hasvir Hadingshero

We came here to do this. What's even the point of not doing this?
 
We came here to do this. What's even the point of not doing this?

Finding out about our cool powers we could be awakening from our mother's side, which have been implied time and time again?

It's not the smart thing to do, and I'm not voting for it, but it's probably at least something as cool as Stoker State, possibly even cooler, with how it's been hinted at.
 
[X] Speak with Hasvir Hadingshero

I mean, an actual deific being said "I can't recommend going out while you wait"...that's not a warning that should just be casually dismissed with 'nothing bad will happen'. You generally seem to assume that no matter what we do things will turn out fine and minimize risks and that's...really not true historically. We've been warned about getting overconfident quite a lot.

IF has also actually brought up the 'einherjar will just kill you, forgetting you can't come back' thing several times when talking about them. And we got this specific warning despite being people capable of coming to Folkvangr and showing the spotlight effect of Odr cultivators...the combination makes it seem real likely that something more than just getting to watch is likely to happen. Us getting blindsided by some sort of fairly extreme attack is very well foreshadowed.

And the real worry (and what got my vote away from going out) was, in fact, Shard bringing up Finales. A lot of those are AoE or otherwise might hit even bystanders, and the only defense we have against them is other Finales, which might not be sufficient if the Finale we're avoiding is Perfected since ours are only Mastered. Is that a sure 'we're gonna die'? No of course not, but it is a risk. And it's also one for our comrades...Stigmar and Abjorn are not gonna let Halla go out alone...could we save them with TSS? Maybe, but it's probably even more of a maybe.

Should we have gone out anyway? Also maybe. I was fairly torn to be honest, and presented the option partially simply because it seemed like there should be such an option, rather than the only voting option for the full three things taking the risk, but it was certainly not a risk free option to go outside.

At the risk of continuing the argument here, and trying to avoid being that guy who relitigates votes that are passed: To be clear, I absolutely agree there was some risk involved, including the risk of crossfire from a stray Finale, and I was not trying to deny that. My estimation of the danger is not as high as yours, but the risk definitely exists. Also, I appreciate you were on the fence, and my posting was not directed at you.

To go into why I am less worried about catching a stray Finale, on the specifics, I think a very relevant factor is that the fundamental metaphysics of the Shounen Sword Wizardry that powers Norse cultivation relies on a degree of intentionality and direct confrontation to the extent that ranged attacks are less likely to hit or do significant damage. Getting killed by accidental crossfire is an order of magnitude less intentional than that, and so is not a very narratively appropriate way for a hero to die, at the end of the day. This can meaningfully inform our expectations of how likely it is.

Now, to try and come up with an example of a danger scenario that I think would be more likely... I think it's possible we could have found ourselves in a dilemma where we have to work out how to save Stigmar from splash damage at additional risk to ourselves. (It would also dovetail with Stigmar's scenes in this update, which is what made me think of it.) But that kind of thing - a challenge we have to beat - also generally presents us with extra rewards or opportunities for character growth. It's a two way street.

My point isn't that risk does not exist, or that there aren't meaningful conversations to be had about it balancing risk versus reward. Rather, what I've been saying is, that when some kinds of risks come into the equation, we can sometimes throw the baby away with the bath water to the extent that (A) we can systematically overrate risks of very extreme "disaster scenarios", sort of like worrying about shark attacks more than car crashes and (B) this sometimes blinds us to the considerable rewards of taking slightly more risks. In aggregate, I've worried in the past that at the margin this may actually be more risky in the long run, because of how it impacts Halla's growth. However, I am less worried about than I was, as we have definitely become notably more proactive in the last few years.

Not attempting to lecture or anything, and I am sorry if my previous posts had a slightly hector-y tone, that's never a great thing to have to respond to. Just wanted to lay out my thinking here, since you gave a substantive reply.

We came here to do this. What's even the point of not doing this?

I guess perhaps the implication is that we'd have to wait until the next morning? But I don't have a great sense of how long it's a good idea to remain here.
 
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I mean it mostly kind of feels like schmuck bait in this case.

re: Halla's decisions and the Bold trait.

I can't help but remember my extrapolations of what Berserkergang does being shot down as too pessimistic, then they turned out to actually be an underestimate.

It kinda feels like there's a whole lotta 'Difference between Bold and Reckless' going on here.
 
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Do you think that Fister, based on the quest as it has been for the last 1827 pages, tends to write in hidden traps for us to kill ourselves as "schmuck bait"?

Like, that's not me trying to make a pithy sarcastic point or anything, it's a genuine question. I think this kind of goes to the heart of the disconnect here because I think it's like... there can be quite a lot of focus sometimes on the idea of landmines that can instakill us through a second's inattention, whereas I think normally if we're in a life-or-death situation, it tends to be telegraphed.

Berserkergang is a good example here, because it did turn out to be really powerful (something I had no stance on either way, as far as I recall, though I could be wrong)... but it was after we said "yes" to a specifically signposted vote about whether we wanted to fight it or not. We didn't make some minor mistake, then immediately have seventeen guys with Berserkergang jump us in an alley.

Fister definitely did telegraph to us telegraph that the Einherjar to not mess around. But I read that as about warning what would happen if we got too close to the action or started to participate, rather than watching essentially from our doorway.



Anyway, sorry, I said I didn't want to relitigate the vote, but here I am, arguing.

Honestly I really enjoy the last update, I thought Stigmar's speech - and the dilemma he talks about - was really well done. I can see where he's coming from, it must be hard to live in this kind of competitive warrior culture, and feel like you're the Krillin of your group. Personally I think it's his loyalty to the ones he cares about is the trait that makes him truly special.
 
Do you think that Fister, based on the quest as it has been for the last 1827 pages, tends to write in hidden traps for us to kill ourselves as "schmuck bait"?

Like, that's not me trying to make a pithy sarcastic point or anything, it's a genuine question. I think this kind of goes to the heart of the disconnect here because I think it's like... there can be quite a lot of focus sometimes on the idea of landmines that can instakill us through a second's inattention, whereas I think normally if we're in a life-or-death situation, it tends to be telegraphed.
We had the option to go and steal the Brazen Bronzeleaf from the Buri family. We had the option to go fight Lars Forkbeard Forkbread 1v1. We now have the option to.... not.... do our Main Quest. One with an in-your-face extremely explicated You Will Die If You Fail attached to it.

So... yeah? We totally get schmuck baits.

e: Also I don't consider a schmuck bait a hidden trap. Schmuck baits have well-telegraphed (or otherwise easily deducable) extreme danger, meaning they aren't a 'hidden trap option'. Hidden traps do not have their dangers telegraphed.
 
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My point isn't that risk does not exist, or that there aren't meaningful conversations to be had about it balancing risk versus reward. Rather, what I've been saying is, that when some kinds of risks come into the equation, we can sometimes throw the baby away with the bath water to the extent that (A) we can systematically overrate risks of very extreme "disaster scenarios", sort of like worrying about shark attacks more than car crashes and (B) this sometimes blinds us to the considerable rewards of taking slightly more risks. In aggregate, I've worried in the past that at the margin this may actually be more risky in the long run, because of how it impacts Halla's growth. However, I am less worried about than I was, as we have definitely become notably more proactive in the last few years.

Not attempting to lecture or anything, and I am sorry if my previous posts had a slightly hector-y tone, that's never a great thing to have to respond to. Just wanted to lay out my thinking here, since you gave a substantive reply.

I absolutely agree with this as a general principle, I'm just not sure I entirely agree on where the line is in terms of which risks to take. I generally agree that we've certainly been taking plenty of risks for gain recently, though.

I think one of the big deciding factors on this specific decision, for me, was not that the risks were necessarily high, but that they straight-up killed us if they happened, and that the up sides seemed to me to be pretty small. Maybe that was wrong, but that was the feeling I had.
 
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Norse-Dogs - A Gabriel Omake (Kitty Empress)
Norse-Dogs - A Gabriel Omake

A crash echoed as two men spoke in perfect unison, "Sustain us in the hour of the combat and of the trial and, if we fall, make us experience the joy of the sacrament of forgiveness." The words were spoken with a pure fervor, a truth that could not be hidden from the world, as the two knights each said their prayer in the time before. The quaking of the gates had already begun, the splintering as force hit it from outside that made the wood buckle and bend. Another crash, and the older knight continued, "Almighty everlasting God, in thy arms may every man be strong, such that they may crush the heathens with belief only in their own ferocity."

The younger of the Knights must have looked perturbed, as the older spoke not in prayer as he regarded his fellow, "Gabriel, you look as penitent as a sinner come to be washed clean. You should be proud, we stand in defense of our proud people, we stand as heroes of Wessex, to defend it against the pagan hordes that would kill its men and defile its women." The older of the men bore a smile on his face - as if he enjoyed where he was, sat upon his steed, opposite the younger who looked miserable as he warred with himself, low to the ground as he was.

"Pride is a sin, Baldwin." The younger of the two said it simply, as he lowered his visor seconds before the gate splintered more. Now men were visible beyond it, men who were hulking, massive, brutish - men who were Norse. "Many men will die today, whether it be our people or theirs. Is it truly righteous to rejoice in ending their lives - is it what God would want, a slaughter?" Far be it from him to lecture his elders, but the words came free, as he thought of all he was taught..

"You mistake yourself, young Gabriel." The older knight lowered his faceplate as well, as his armor surged with strength, "These are not men. These are animals who have taken the shape of men. Animals who take, who consume, who destroy, and defile. You of all people should know that - we all know the story of your squiredom." The story that would follow Gabriel forever - enslaved and returned, the knight who came back. The knight of broken chains, all those names. "These monsters are not worthy of consideration, any moreso than a wolf should be amongst a herd of sheep."

"Perhaps." Could he argue, with the rage he still felt in his heart - his burning rage at his captor? Was that the measure of a Norseman, truly? Regretful or not, the Knight drew his blade as he moved forward in time with the Gate finally shattering. The first Norseman to catch the blade through his wrist did not look like a beast, as he yelled in pain and bled red blood, just like a man. The man channeled that rage as he stabbed forward, his entire body moving into the rush of the blow, as he cleaved further up the arm, splitting the arm practically in two as he carved from sword-hand to shoulder, leaving the Norseman writhing and howling in the pain of it, as rage took over for the moment.

"Aha, you have stolen first blood despite yourself! And yet, I claim the first to have fallen truly." Baldwin's lance pierced through the head of another Norseman, as Gabriel glanced over for just a split second - just long enough for the blood running into the man's blonde hair to send Gabriel into a fit of nausea, throwing off his parry of the next Norseman's blow - which bounced off his Armor as if it did not exist. Images of Halla overlaid themselves on what the boy saw, once more young and heart full of butterflies, as he imagined the face of the woman who showed him that the Norse were people, not animals. The boy held the food that was in his stomach in - and much as he forced down his lunch, he pressed his emotions downwards.

Even as he cleaved the man from shoulder to hip, the Knight was not watching the battle. The screams, the taunts, the lewd accusations, the yelling of challenges, they bled into the background as the boy forced himself to be a man once more. "Mother mary watch me as I walk upon these fields," The prayers were silent, as he focused himself, tearing his thoughts away from a red haired norsewoman who was nowhere near this battlefield, "Let kindness and devotion be my guides," The silent prayers drowned out everything as the Boy became the Man, and the Man became the Knight, rage and devotion mixing inside of the armor. "but let them not lead to weakness, but strength, as I protect His flock from those who would destroy it."

And at the end, the Knight stood tall and unbending as the Norsemen fled, carrying those they could on their back - the uninjured Knight allowing their escape. They were men, caring for each other in their own way. The Man stood still as he watched those who were left behind, the streets dyed red in their blood. They were men, bleeding just as men would bleed. The boy held back the choking breaths as he listened to those begging to be finished off, begging for a release from pain. And in every man he saw the few he knew, whom he did not hate - Halla, who freed him so readily, and sought to protect her family and kin. Stigmar, who showed the loyalty befitting of a Knight. Even Abjorn, loathe as he was to admit it, who was never in a day cruel or wrong to whom he said he loved. These were who the boy saw beneath his feet, as the Norsemen died.

"We certainly gave them a what-for, aha!" Baldwin was still in good spirits, despite his Steed's injury preventing him from chasing down the remnants, "I must say, you fight like a man possessed once you start moving - I suppose it must be personal for you, after all! At first I thought you a fool, moving without Steed or Hawk, but you truly have found your own way, my young compatriot! We are lucky to have had a man such as you return from the clutches of those vile animals." A slap on the back made the young man release his held breath. "I insist we celebrate! We drove those monsters off, and I cannot say anything deserves succor more than doing such work for our King and the Lord!"

"...I must excuse myself." The words were measured and chosen, "I would like to seek His guidance in prayer, after such. Do not allow me to keep you." It had become a... habit, now - the halls of stone and the colored glass giving comfort to the weary soul that was the Knight, the Man, and the Boy all at once. Gabriel of the Blackstone family removed his Knightly Armor, and kneeled in prayer. Every time, a prayer for clarity, a prayer for guidance, a prayer for something to calm his troubled soul.

"Heavenly Father, why must I suffer so?" The prayer was in quiet, the hero of the hour afforded his time to seek the Lord, "In my heart, I have one wish, and it is to kill a Man. And yet I see him as a Man. Even as I see him killing my teacher, I see him as a Man. Even when I remember the feelings of chains, I know they were put there by a Man. Heavenly Father, I need your guidance - you say that man should not kill man, but your followers say that some Others are not men at all. Am I wrong to seek to kill what I see as Man..." Another breath, another hesitation, as the Knight-Man-Boy all trembled, "Or am I wrong to give mercy to what others see as Monster?"

"Why must I wake feeling unfaithful to your teachings, and rest feeling guilty for those I slew? Is not one enough for a man?" There was no answer. There was never an answer. God worked in mysterious ways.

And the young Knight would have to find his answers on his own, as he tried to answer who he was.



I'm not sure I did this omake complete justice, but I've been wanting to do something Gabriel focused for awhile. The idea of him at a crossroads, pulled between ideals, desires, and emotions.

I can be bad at presenting stuff, so to explain how I characterized this;

The Boy/The Innocent - The Gabriel who sees people as people, who found those who he liked even amongst enemies, and does not want to inflict the violence he must upon them.
The Man/The Sinner - The Gabriel who wants nothing more than to kill Steinarr, not as a Knight taking victory over a heathen foe, but as personal vengeance. Who revels in it, even as it stains him.
The Knight/The Ideal - The Gabriel who pushes everything down and forces himself not to feel personally, who embraces his Armor and his Duty, and tries to pursue the impossible ideal.

This isn't meant to represent some weird multiple personality split or anything. Just... all the different ways Gabriel feels, that are contradictory perhaps, and perhaps the way he copes.
 
[X] Speak with Hasvir Hadingshero

Well, i suppose this should help Stigmar with his insecurities a bit.

I still prefer Hasvir aproach, who cares if you have a special heritage or not? The important part is that you are going to do great things.
 
It's kind of hard to argue that special heritages don't matter when you're the beneficiary of several of them (Volsung [Divine Blood], Sigurdr [Born in Fire/Stoker State] , Bram [Blaze of Glory], Steinarr [Father's Cindersoot Owl], Blackhand [Charred Soul], Whatever we got from Asveig).
 
It's kind of hard to argue that special heritages don't matter when you're the beneficiary of several of them (Volsung [Divine Blood], Sigurdr [Born in Fire/Stoker State] , Bram [Blaze of Glory], Steinarr [Father's Cindersoot Owl], Blackhand [Charred Soul], Whatever we got from Asveig).

I'm pretty sure not all of these are accurate (I don't think we have Blaze of Glory, and Father's Cindersoot Owl isn't really a bloodline thing per se), but we indisputably benefit from Born of Fire (including Stoker State) and Charred Soul, so it's sort of splitting hairs. I do agree that Hasvir's attitude is likely healthier, though.
 
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[X] Speak with your mother's kinsmen

You would think that they could take a little more time off from the fighting to talk to us. I kind of think that talking to Hasvir with Hasvir would be more productive but we can kind of guess where that conversation will go.
 
Of course Hasvir doesn't want ancestry to define people.

His father was an insane paranoid monster who murdered people and turned them into insanely powerful super draugr. And put bombs in his kids heads. And was generally just not a good dude.
 
[X] Speak with Hasvir Hadingshero

Perhaps if we are lucky we can catch one of our relatives still alive after the urgent and important stuff is done....
Or get tutored in the Hading Style.
Either works.
 
Honestly I really enjoy the last update, I thought Stigmar's speech - and the dilemma he talks about - was really well done. I can see where he's coming from, it must be hard to live in this kind of competitive warrior culture, and feel like you're the Krillin of your group. Personally I think it's his loyalty to the ones he cares about is the trait that makes him truly special.
Well that's really just one of the natures of Orthstirr, isn't it? And, Xianxia in general. When the exceptional are adored, what happens when you're *not* exceptional?
 
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