NorseQuest (A Norse Xianxia)

[DeadmanwalkingXI]

Can we put Halting Vortex in our fylgja?

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We can, but then we can't use it ourselves. Which seems quite bad, right at the moment.

In the long run, if we get another really good defense, then that's a possibility, but we sort of need our really good defense for ourself right now.

 

[Constenanto]

We can, but then we can't use it ourselves. Which seems quite bad, right at the moment.

In the long run, if we get another really good defense, then that's a possibility, but we sort of need our really good defense for ourself right now.

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Oh. That sucks. I thought we'd still have access to it.

Why did we pick the owl over the 2x damage again?

 

[Alectai]

Oh. That sucks. I thought we'd still have access to it.

Why did we pick the owl over the 2x damage again?

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Because the Owl scales very well with our likely build. Having More Bullshit we can play means more synergies.

 

[DeadmanwalkingXI]

Oh. That sucks. I thought we'd still have access to it.

Why did we pick the owl over the 2x damage again?

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Our Capacity is currently 6/14. It will be 9/14 after the three hugareida tricks we're aiming for this turn...if we'd gone double damage, we'd be at 6/7 and couldn't even get all those tricks without putting some into the wolf (who would be just as vulnerable as the owl). And that's to say nothing of seidr spells and similar options.

Which is to say, putting tricks into the fylgja is not the advantage we got from picking an owl (you can do that with any fylgja), doubled capacity was, and we're actually starting to make use of it.

 

[Toboe]

[X] Discard the Poem

First, we obviously discard the poem. Second, the plan:

[X] Plan And Finally The Meteor

-[X] (Fire in the Sky) Alright, you've got the art skills, go see Aki to progress
-[X] (Poetry) Try to realize an Inspiration (Write in one of your Inspirations)
--[X] The Draugr
-[X] (Personal) Spend time with...(Write in)
--[X] Drifa

Training:
-[X] (Blackhand's Training) Try to develop old/train new hugareida tricks (Write in)
--[X] Train attack hugareida that charges thrown objects with explosive force 6d6 (3d6)
--[X] Train hugareida mobility trick using Ignite 6d6 (3d6)
--[X] Train a direct attack hugareida with Ignite that enhances our melee attacks (setting things we hit with a weapon on fire or making them explode) 4d6 (2d6)
-[X] (Steinarr's Training) Ask Steinarr to teach you a trick/some tricks (Write in)
--[X] Train Leaping-Cleave Trick 1d6
--[X] Ask about what tricks he would recommend for: defense, dodging, movement (mention the after images we seen by both the slagson and the draugr), and throwing. Preferably cheap ones.
-[X] (Training) Hamr (30 successes to rank up)
--[X] Train Glima 1d6
--[X] Train Throw 1d6
-[X] (Training) Hugr (31 successes to rank up)
--[X] Train Artcraft 1d6
--[X] Train Management 1d6
--[X] Train Scouting 1d6
--[X] Train Strategy 1d6
--[X] Train Wordplay 1d6
--[X] Train Weaponcraft 1d6

Orthstirr:
-[X] (Orthstirr Usage)
--[X] 5 Hamr
---[X] 3 Chop, 3 Defend, 3 Dodge, 2 Glima, (11 total)
--[X] 6 Hugr
---[X] 3/4 Artcraft, 3 Composure, 2 Scouting, 3 Silver-Tongue, 3 Tactics, 3/4 Wordplay (17/19 Total, depending on if Artcraft and Wordplay increase)
--[X] 4 Fylgja
--[X] 3/1 free for tricks (depending on if Artcraft and Wordplay go up)

So, for actions...we obviously want to do the meteor, and more orthstirr would be very nice, hence another go at poetry. For the third action...I'm not actually super confident on what to do, but Drifa is our one remaining family member with a negative opinion of us. I'd suggest checking on Stigandr, but we're hopefully doing that next turn after talking with the seeress, if we can arrange that.

For training, Ignite is sweet and those dounled dice are hard to turn down. We also want to keep progressing Leaping-Cleave and start researching the explosive charm if we can. Other than that, raising a bunch of skills that only need one or two successes seems the order of the day. Remember that going from 1 to 2 dice doesn't increase the odds of 2+ successes very much (it increases the odds of 1 success a lot, and adds the possibility of 3 or 4, but it's not a big advantage when attempting to get exactly 2).

EDIT: Dropped from 8d6 to 6d6 on our Ignite tricks to train Artcraft and Wordplay. 6d6 probably gets us to Rough Trick level and even 8d6 probably doesn't get them to Refined, so it's probably fine. Dropped Explosive Charm research for a hugareida needed to do something similar.

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For the third action:
How about smithing?
Another Chance to upgrade our +2 crafting tools to +3, another chance to make progress on the boon, another chance to make money.

And, probably next turn, asking Sten for ignition based forging skills.

Oh. That sucks. I thought we'd still have access to it.

Why did we pick the owl over the 2x damage again?

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"Murder witch" stuff.
But yeah, wolf would have fit Halla much better imho.
Heck, everyone present was surprised about it:

"An owl?" The Witch asks as her head quirks to the side. "I would have thought that you would have a wolf, or perhaps a bear."

"I guess I'm full of surprises." You shrug, uncertain on how to feel about your soul manifesting itself in the form of an owl of all things. To be honest, you had been expecting to see a wolf too.

But, an owl is what you see so an owl is what you are.
I had thought you were one of the Cat's, but you aren't, are you?

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[Alectai]

Ignition is not good at peaceful stuff based on yesterday's Q&A

 

[DeadmanwalkingXI]

For the third action:
How about smithing?
Another Chance to upgrade our +2 crafting tools to +3, another chance to make progress on the boon, another chance to make money.

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Not a bad idea, but I do want at least neutral relations with all our family members.

And, probably next turn, asking Sten for ignition based forging skills.

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Maybe not Ignition, but asking him for training in general seems like a reasonable thing to do...

EDIT: Actually, yeah, potentially acquiring training is important to do as soon as possible, I'm replacing Drifa with her dad for this turn. We still want to hang out with her soon...but training dice or bonuses to learning smithing would be really good.

"Murder witch" stuff.
But yeah, wolf would have fit Halla much better imho.
Heck, everyone present was surprised about it:

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I voted for wolf myself, but double capacity is turning out pretty nice, honestly. Capacity 7 would be really cramping our style right about now. We'd need to be making hard decisions about which tricks we actually kept available in the real near future.

 

[Sirrocco]

I'm going to note that the +1 success to fire-based hugareida means that (if I'm understanding correctly) investing 1 die per trick per turn results in really significant efficiency gains over investing more.

Long-term what we want to be doing is slowly working on fire hugareida, one die at a time each. Happily, this will also mean that we still have dice for other things. Basically, each fire trick has a certain point where it maxxes out, and a certain umebr of total dice it's goign to take to get there, and doing it a die at a time is going to mean a lot fewer dice get spent over the long term.

I mean... check me if I'm wrong, here?

 

[DeadmanwalkingXI]

I'm going to note that the +1 success to fire-based hugareida means that (if I'm understanding correctly) investing 1 die per trick per turn results in really significant efficiency gains over investing more.

Long-term what we want to be doing is slowly working on fire hugareida, one die at a time each. Happily, this will also mean that we still have dice for other things. Basically, each fire trick has a certain point where it maxxes out, and a certain umebr of total dice it's goign to take to get there, and doing it a die at a time is going to mean a lot fewer dice get spent over the long term.

I mean... check me if I'm wrong, here?

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Weirdly, the fact that Blackhand doubles the dice makes this somewhat less true, since it'll be 2 dice +1 success, not 1 die +1 success and the math of those is pretty different. The doubling is still better (it results in more successes on average), but it largely removes the advantage of only putting one die into it, which means that putting 4 or 6 in a single turn is much closer to the same amount of progress per die. It is, perhaps, appropriate that tutelage from the master of fire makes for explosive growth rather than slow and steady progress.

We do only get the +1 success on turns when we put some dice into them, so there is an efficiency bump by taking our time, but examining it, the math honestly winds up about the same as for investing more than one die on other things after accounting for everything (ie: at 2d+1 per turn, you get an average of 2.7 successes...at 6d +1 you average 5 successes, so you're getting 2/3 the value per die). That's worth it when it gets necessary stuff quickly. We're basically spending an extra die to get the results a turn sooner...we don't want to sustain that, but it's fine for a turn when uses for the stuff in question are imminent.

Basically, we should put more than one die into Ignition stuff under the same circumstances as anything else. It'll just be way faster with Ignition either way.

For this turn, however, getting three new Rough Tricks right before the boss fight seems really useful in terms of expanding our options. So that's definitely a reason to rush a bit.

 

[Toboe]

Ignition is not good at peaceful stuff based on yesterday's Q&A

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Care to quote the relevant parts?
All i see skimming is that Ignition is more for immeadiate/direct fire (think Avatar the last airbender style firebending) rather than widespread or long range.

Immeadiate/direct fire could still be usefull (getting the forge up to temperature much quicker, maybe adding back some heat to the metal each strike).
May also result in us learning about magic xianxia forging stuff that lets us forgen items with Ignition effects.

Welcome to the party!

Oh boy. Deadman has made a few posts about it, but essentially there's, like, a 10% increase or something to the success rate. I cannot recall the math for the life of me

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1 dice only

Range	Result
1-2	-1 0 (can't have negative overall results from Training)
3-4	1
5-6	2

( 2*0
+2*1
+2*2)/6
=6/6
=1
1 dice has expected value of 1 success per die.
2 dice

Range die 1	Range die 2	Result
1-2	1-2	-1 + -1= -2 0 (no negative overall results)
3-4	1-2	1 + -1 =0
5-6	1-2	2 + -1 =1
1-2	3-4	-1 + 1=0
3-4	3-4	1 + 1 =2
5-6	3-4	2 + 1 =3
1-2	5-6	-1 + 2 =1
3-4	5-6	1 + 2 =3
5-6	5-6	2 + 2 =4

( 4 * 0
+4 * 1
+4 * 0
+4 * 2
+4 * 3
+4 * 1
+4 * 3
+4 * 4) /(4 * 9)
= 4 * (0+1+0+2+3+1+3+4)/(4*9)
= (1+2+3+1+3+4)/9
= (3+4+7)/9
=14/9
≈1.55...
So expected value of 2 dice is 14/9≈1.55...
(14/9)/2
=(14/9) * (1/2)
=14/(9*2)
=14/18
≈0.77...
Expected value of 2 dice is 14/18≈0.77...
So, If we use 1 die instead of 2 our expected value is Higher by a factor of 1/(14/18)≈1.2857
So a single die is 28.57% more efficient than 2 die.
Though 2 dice are 55.56% more effective than 1.

 

[Alectai]

Care to quote the relevant parts?
All i see skimming is that Ignition is more for immeadiate/direct fire (think Avatar the last airbender style firebending) rather than widespread or long range.

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Sure

There is no weak hugareida, just weak applications of it. Ignition is great for explosions but not so much for burning a forest down. Wildfire can't create good explosions but you'd better believe that it's your guy if you need something burnt down. Neither of them are very good for practical, everyday uses. If you try and start a cooking fire with Ignition, you're gonna flash-cook the meat while Wildfire will burn down the house.

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There's the quote, it seems pretty clear.

 

[Sivantic]

Since we only have the one stake, I think the best way to use it is to kill a cow, clean it, and and stab it into the round and let it dry-age for a month without worry of it going bad, even in the summer. This gives you the absolutely best tasting steaks you will ever have.

To be sure since cows are not cheap and this is a long process, this is to really boost any celebration we may have in the future. With only one, this is really more of a luxury tool.

 

[DeadmanwalkingXI]

2 dice

Range die 1	Range die 2	Result
1-2	1-2	-1 + -1= -2 0 (no negative overall results)
3-4	1-2	1 + -1 =0
5-6	1-2	2 + -1 =1
1-2	3-4	-1 + 1=0
3-4	3-4	1 + 1 =2
5-6	3-4	2 + 1 =3
1-2	5-6	-1 + 2 =1
3-4	5-6	1 + 2 =3
5-6	5-6	2 + 2 =4

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This isn't quite right. If the result if 0 rather than negative, it counts as 1 success, which increases net successes slightly. Specifically, this means that, out of 9 possibilities, the options are 4, 3, 3, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 0. so 16/9 rather than 14/9.

That makes less and less difference as the die numbers become higher and higher as results of exactly zero become increasingly rare, but it's pretty relevant at 2 dice (it means that 2 dice have an 8/9 chance of getting at least one success, for instance, which is relevant if you need only one success but need it urgently).

 

[WhoTheHeckity]

[X] Discard the Poem

[X] Plan And Finally The Meteor

 

[TheCount]

@Imperial Fister , how would a general booster look like with ignition? like, using the same trick for movement, attack, dodge and such.

Just releasing an explosion behind whatever part Halla wants to boost?

Also, this:

Can we pull a Gambit - charge something with fire and then throw it?

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Hmmm.... Sure.

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Makes the explosive sphere kinda irrelevant, kinda sad but for a quick and dirty one that infusion isnt bad.
The rune granade just makes more sense if we learn it with the meteor pod imo.

 

[I.F. Ister]

@Imperial Fister , how would a general booster look like with ignition? like, using the same trick for movement, attack, dodge and such.

Just releasing an explosion behind whatever part Halla wants to boost?

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Pretty much this.

Makes the explosive sphere kinda irrelevant, kinda sad but for a quick and dirty one that infusion isnt bad.
The rune granade just makes more sense if we learn it with the meteor pod imo.

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The pros and cons in regards to gambit-rock, rune grenade, and generic explosion ability are along these lines;

Rune grenade wouldn't require orthstirr to function, so you could absolutely spam them out if you really wanted to and had the supply. On the other hand, it would take way longer to prepare than gambit rock and comparing it to generic explosion ability's speed is a laughable concept. Sure, the actual using them part is lickety-split, but you have to go through the process of making them first.

Gambit rock would require orthstirr to function and would be expensive. However, if you had the orthstirr to fuel it you could absolutely annihilate some poor moron. The only things you'd need to really worry about with it is 1) running out of orthstirr sooner than expected and 2) not having anything to infuse. Contrary to popular belief, good, throwable rocks aren't everywhere. To clarify, they are everywhere but not always in quantities large or dense enough to make much of a difference.

Generic explosion ability, unlike the others, would be able to be used purely by orthstirr alone. No rocks or pottery necessary here. It would also be a stronger explosion than the other two, though at a significantly shorter range. This would certainly be expensive, but probably not much more than gambit rock.

 

[DeadmanwalkingXI]

Makes the explosive sphere kinda irrelevant, kinda sad but for a quick and dirty one that infusion isnt bad.
The rune granade just makes more sense if we learn it with the meteor pod imo.

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It makes it lower priority but not irrelevant, I don't think.

If we learn to use the explosive charm we can make them and pass them to others, use them as set explosives or in traps, and other stuff that isn't 'I throw a grenade'...I doubt the same is true of the Ignition Trick, or at least not true to the same degree. There's also the othstirr question...at least from what we see with the one we've got it doesn't look like using the explosive charm costs orthstirr (whether creating one costs some is more ambiguous), which may mean we need a Throw Trick to make Trick Attacks with them (which would probably not be worth it, given the Ignition Trick), but would also mean that, especially vs. mooks or those not expecting it we could make a normal attack with exploding charms at no orthstirr cost.

Like, explosion magic and 'mundane' grenades/explosives actually have some pretty different use cases when examined. Now, how much investment are those use cases worth? That's a good question and depends on several factors...but they probably are worth tossing a few dice at explosive charm research...if it works as a trick getting it to Rough is reasonable, and if it works as a Skill-Trick (because it's crafting), completing it seems potentially worth it. More than 6 successes on it would be excessive, but 3-6 seems potentially valid.

EDIT: Well, ninja'd but the point stands.

Pretty much this.

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So how would a generic trick like that work and what's the down side over grabbing multiple tricks for specific functions? Is it less efficient or lower powered or what?

 

[I.F. Ister]

So how would a generic trick like that work and what's the down side over grabbing multiple tricks for specific functions? Is it less efficient or what?

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Well, it'd rapidly rack up quite the cost. I'm talking, like, at least 6 orthstirr a pop. Explosions aren't cheap, especially if you're using them for everything. It also wouldn't play very well with leading into other attacks or taking advantage of any openings made. If it throws you around to dodge, it'll throw you around as you attack.

 

[DeadmanwalkingXI]

Well, it'd rapidly rack up quite the cost. I'm talking, like, at least 6 orthstirr a pop. Explosions aren't cheap, especially if you're using them for everything. It also wouldn't play very well with leading into other attacks or taking advantage of any openings made. If it throws you around to dodge, it'll throw you around as you attack.

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Sounds like a good technique for people with Capacity issues who need all in one tricks to make their hugareida work for them. Which is to say, thanks to having gone Owl, people who are not us.

There's definitely some use cases if we Mastered or Perfected this, but it seems to me like Halla specifically has better options.

The only things you'd need to really worry about with it is 1) running out of orthstirr sooner than expected and 2) not having anything to infuse. Contrary to popular belief, good, throwable rocks aren't everywhere. To clarify, they are everywhere but not always in quantities large or dense enough to make much of a difference.

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Going back to this for a moment, do we need to add a specific note to acquire a bag and use it to carry around a bunch of sling stones? Because that was definitely my plan in regards to the ammo problem, and should be available given that slings are a decently common weapon. It's not unlimited ammo by any means but seems like it'd be enough ammo that orthstirr becomes our real limiting factor.

At some point once we've improved our eyesight I'd think we could even pick up Shoot 1 or 2 and a sling for extra range on our explosives.

 

[veekie]

'Speaking of Standstill,' Blackhand starts, more lessons on his tongue, 'my knowledge of it may be incomplete, but I haven't heard-nor-seen any Alloys made from it. I believe this is because Alloying doesn't work when the resulting hugareida is antithetical to one of the comprising hugareida. An example of this is Fire and Ice, which creates Water, which extinguishes Fire.'

"And Standstill doesn't play nicely with other hugareida..." You frown. That does put a knot in your plans.

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Hmm, Standstill is stasis based, which stops processes, meaning that it is at once a broad spanning counter for many Hugareida, because most of those we've heard of so far are actions and Standstill halts that action, but also that it doesn't blend well unless you had a second Hugareida thats fundamentally passive(and thus hard to use).

You need something which can be halted without negating it, which in turn would make a nightmarish Hugareida to do anything with because that means it doesn't DO anything.

So to get the picture right, Water + Standstill might get you Ice, but you'd have to use Water itself, because Waves, River, Rain, etc interacting with Standstill causes the phenomenon to cease being itself.

So...sounds like it'd be able to do much, if we had a philosophical Hugareida from somewhere.

Ignition can create quick jets/bursts of fire and explosions. Long-range stuff isn't its forte but melee-range stuff is.

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Like Ignition Knee Groin Trick?

 

[I.F. Ister]

Like Ignition Knee Groin Trick?

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I feel bad for your future enemies (but not that bad)

you had a second Hugareida thats fundamentally passive(and thus hard to use).

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And also extremely difficult to acquire.

 

[DeadmanwalkingXI]

Like Ignition Knee Groin Trick?

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Would this require a separate trick from the more general melee option, or would we just be able to combine the general melee option with Knee-Groin Trick?

 

[I.F. Ister]

Would this require a separate trick from the more general melee option, or would we just be able to combine the general melee option with Knee-Groin Trick?

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Sort of, you could call it 'Fiery-Knee-Groin Trick' to create a jet of flame while you knee, but that's a whole new trick (though you skip straight to rough, thanks to already knowing KGT). And honestly probably not worth it, thanks to increased cost. The more complex a trick, the higher the cost.

 

[TheCount]

Sort of, you could call it 'Fiery-Knee-Groin Trick' to create a jet of flame while you knee, but that's a whole new trick (though you skip straight to rough, thanks to already knowing KGT)

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THIS. CHANGES. EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING!!!

So, can we also combine tricks like this and get them to rough? or its only trick + hugraida?

 

[Toboe]

Sure



There's the quote, it seems pretty clear.

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@Imperial Fister
Is that a strong 'no' on non-battle-uses or a 'very unlikely'?
Could Ignition be used to add some heat back into the metal (or speed up lighting the furnace)?

Can smithing add muna based effects to the smithed item?

Pretty much this.


The pros and cons in regards to gambit-rock, rune grenade, and generic explosion ability are along these lines;

Rune grenade wouldn't require orthstirr to function, so you could absolutely spam them out if you really wanted to and had the supply. On the other hand, it would take way longer to prepare than gambit rock and comparing it to generic explosion ability's speed is a laughable concept. Sure, the actual using them part is lickety-split, but you have to go through the process of making them first.

Gambit rock would require orthstirr to function and would be expensive. However, if you had the orthstirr to fuel it you could absolutely annihilate some poor moron. The only things you'd need to really worry about with it is 1) running out of orthstirr sooner than expected and 2) not having anything to infuse. Contrary to popular belief, good, throwable rocks aren't everywhere. To clarify, they are everywhere but not always in quantities large or dense enough to make much of a difference.

Generic explosion ability, unlike the others, would be able to be used purely by orthstirr alone. No rocks or pottery necessary here. It would also be a stronger explosion than the other two, though at a significantly shorter range. This would certainly be expensive, but probably not much more than gambit rock.

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Can rune rock and rock grenade be combined for even more effectiveness?

Does the material need to be strong enough to reasonable explode, or does it only need to carry the runes which do the explosive damage?
(with the latter, part of Stigrs arrows could be rune painted)