NorseQuest (A Norse Xianxia)

fearsome hill · Jul 14, 2023

Amazing story thus far. Cant wait for more. Inspired me to write a spell.

Finnish version:

älä rauta verta vuodata
älä minulta sitä tiputa
takoi sinut ilmarinen
sepitteli kaunihisti
miekaksi ja kirveeksi
eikä verta vuodattamaan
vaan miestä auttamahan
miekka oli johtajille
kirves työmiehille
mutta hiisi vei meden eestä
laitto sankoon kalkkivettä
siitäpä sie vihastuit
viilsit paloiksi valasi
miehen verta vuodatit
emäsi ompi ilman impi
raudan äiti ukon lapsi
älä emoasi suututa
suututa ja suruta
älä vuoata ihmisen verta
vaan auta häntä

The English translation:

iron take not my blood
do not make it drip from my body
you were shaped by ilmarinen
smithed and made beautifull by his hands
into sword and axe
not to take mans blood
but to help him
the sword was for the leader
the axe for the craftsman
but the troll stole away the sweet nectar
put the chalk water in the bucket
from that you became angry
and tore up your oaths
mans blood you spilled
your mother is a lady of the sky
the daughter of ukko and the mother of iron
dont make your mother mad
mad and sad
dont spill the blood of man
help him instead

The spell essentially reminds iron that it swore an oath to not draw blood and that its mother would be sad if it drew blood again

TheCount · Jul 14, 2023

Oh, you were talking about the full disclosure.
I thought it was about the Gabriel chat that's coming next turn.....

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
To be clear, I'm not wildly invested in telling him, I just also don't think it's a problem if we do.

Like, if he decides to go back to Wessex before we do a disclosure we're sure not hunting him down...but if he's around I'd at least like him standing guard outside while we tell people stuff, and if he wants to know about it along with everyone else, I don't think it's that big a deal as long as we get his word to keep it a secret.

That works.

If we run into Odin or Thor again before the disclosure though, we can just ask them if they are alright with it.

Toboe · Jul 14, 2023

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
I don't see why we wouldn't do that at the time? This is super premature and weird. Also, as this is not a plan vote, me changing my own wording doesn't change anyone else's. Asking him to keep it a secret is something we do right before telling him an actual secret.

The currently leading vote includes telling him that she will work hard to make sure he is there when she tells others. Going back on your word is nid. So this isn't just telling him that there is a secret, its practically promising that she will share the secret with him. This isn't seperate from telling him a secret, this is the first thin slice of the big secret salami.
>I'm working on a way to tell others, and I'll work hard to make sure you're there when I do. I suspect I'll need your aid then.

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Honestly, I'm pretty sure they can't do this specific example. Claiming pagan magics are the works of Christ seems Sin-heavy in the extreme, especially since they don't actually have any ability to open the Gate and help them deal with Odr.

Or, much more likely to be honest, they can instead do this already as part of teaching Norsemen how to access Zeal. In which case this information is pretty useless to them since they can do the same thing already for converts. Like, we know that a Norseman can learn to use another culture's internal resource as long as they have not revealed their Fylgja (Sten has done exactly this, for example), so I'm pretty sure them teaching the Norse how to do Zeal cultivation is a real option they already possess. They don't have to fake it with Odr stuff.

They can use the Gate to convince the Norse that their cultivation is lacking something and then use that as an in to preach Christ and teach Zeal.
Tell them that they can't open the door, that it would kill them, because they lack faith in God.
Then the few in the group who try are proof for the rest.
Norse learn Zeal? Proof of God!

Nothing in that would be 'claiming pagan magics as the work of Christ'.

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Does it? The Norse model is pretty much as individualized as possible in terms of actual capabilities. Knowing how the cultivation system works does not help much at figuring out what actual abilities a specific Norseman might have. It seems singularly useless as any kind of combat insight to me. Like, there are useful generalities about the Norse, sure, but nothing Odr does seems like one of them to me. Could you give a specific example of this? Because I'm really not seeing it.

Its a shard of the big mosaic.
For specific examples I'd have to see what is in the disclosure we are promising him.
Before that, I can't give specific examples and only say that it would contribute to them understanding the Norse and them understanding the Norse too much would be an advantage for them.
Yeah, I admit thats vague.

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
I mean, people would need to buy that the Christians have insight into cultivation that they lack for this to work, and then, if it did, the Christians have suddenly murdered all the people likely to convert because they've killed all the ones who are willing to listen to Christians. This isn't impossible, but it's wildly and obviously counterproductive.

Only if they go for openly telling them and not for anonymous rumors or reverse psychology.

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
This is all basically irrelevant due to the rarity of Odr cultivators. Using Orthstirr doesn't require your own land, and that's what, like, 99% of the Norse use. Trying to do this sort of thing to catch out the 1% who need it is probably worse than futile.

Freeing true cultivatio and spreading it is our goal, isn't it?
(With completely freeing it requiring the end of the enemy)

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
This assumes that the 'viper's nest' both believe he has some useful info to give them and can get it out of a Knight sworn to secrecy. Both seem kind of unlikely to be honest. Like, I have no doubt that he'll give them tactical advice on how to fight Norsemen and stuff like that...but the secrets of Odr aren't useful in the same way. Why would he even bring up or reveal he knows them? He's not exactly the chattiest guy around.

So he'd give them tactical advice, but they wouldn't pry to get every bit he knows to make their own judgements?
And the questions would only be of martial nature and priests/people hoping to spread christianity wouldn't have questions of their own?

Shard · Jul 14, 2023

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
To be clear, I'm not wildly invested in telling him, I just also don't think it's a problem if we do.

Like, if he decides to go back to Wessex before we do a disclosure we're sure not hunting him down...but if he's around I'd at least like him standing guard outside while we tell people stuff, and if he wants to know about it along with everyone else, I don't think it's that big a deal as long as we get his word to keep it a secret.

...

Let me just continue the respective Gabriel Quests.

Gabriel Quest Discussion Continuation

LivegirltalkingIX said:
So I guess we can shelve the plans to go back to Wessex, lol.

Fragment said:
On one hand, maybe we shouldn't have beelined 4th Decade, on the other hand, we'd have died to that Elephant if we hadn't done so, so well you know. You win some, you lose some.

Republican Clubber said:
Funny story about that.

If you hadn't like, gone berserk and then gotten yourself into a debt to Halla, she would have brought up a planned trading trip to Wessex with her new boat. As it was, it was kind of like. Socially awkward to bring it up. Given you know, the whole debt thing and all.

On the upside, you get to learn about Norse Debts!

They're a big deal.

Delectai said:
Well, at least it's a debt to someone who still considers us a Friend thus isn't likely to Fuck Us Over, like Michael and Thomas 100% would have.

GoldenPrince said:
Halla has to be the chilliest Norsewoman alive to try and talk us down while we were literally trying to kill her.

Like, hell, even Robert would probably have like, lopped our limbs off something.

Republican Clubber said:
Norsemen don't fear death. Or maiming. Can always just stick their limbs back on, or have their body regrown (as you saw with Stigandr and Stigmar).

Social situations though. Man. That's a whole different ballgame.

Delectai said:
Man, that Stigr scene still gets me.

Making a desperate stand against the trollmen to keep the babies alive.

Sword breaks, just stabs it into his arm to keep fighting on anyway.

Then he dies, still killing Trollmen as he goes down.

And then he just gets his entire fucking body regrown like nothing happened.

Moon Freiza said:
I guess when even death is just a slap on the wrist you just care about other things a lot more huh?

Republican Clubber said:
You haven't really seen it come up, but where in Christendom a Dishonor attack would 'just' lower your standing and embarrass you..

..For the Norse an equivalent Dishonor attempt would actually cause your cultivation to regress. Like, no kidding, if someone insulted you, you could actually bring them to court and get them fined or even outlawed depending on how bad the insult was.

Fragment said:
@Republican Clubber

Do we know which gods Halla sacrifices to at her Blot?
And what she sacrifices during those Blots?

When Halla says 'neither of us can afford that price' it makes me wonder if she's, like, making enough sacrifices over time to pay off whatever the metaphysical cost of sharing her secret knowledge with us and her friends/family? Like she needs to make installments to pay for a copyright license of True Norse Cultivation something before Odin will let her share the details or something without being smited.

LivegirltalkingIX said:
Sigurd Fafnirsbane is descended from Odin, so probably not?

Though we don't know how the Norse treat with their gods.

Republican Clubber said:
You don't know to whom she sacrifices her stuff (or what she sacrifices for that matter) to at the Blots, on account of, well, not attending them.

There was that time when the sky was booming madly with thunder and Steinarr screamed at Thor to quieten down so he could sleep and Sterki would stop crying. The weather cleared up after.

TimmyClown said:
Man, what the fuck, lmao.

---

The culture clash between Christian Cultivation and Norse Cultivation is pretty funny.

Oh, uhh, if I overflow my reward dice cap, just, idk, put the excess into improving the Runework interpretation/outcome for Aki's horn I guess?

Koguyra · Jul 14, 2023

I wonder if we can immediately burn the favor he owes us to learn Blackstone Blade.

If anything, coal seems like it'd actually have some synergy to Stoker State given the fireplace/steam engine analogy they have.

DeadmanwalkingXI · Jul 14, 2023

Toboe said:
The currently leading vote includes telling him that she will work hard to make sure he is there when she tells others. Going back on your word is nid. So this isn't just telling him that there is a secret, its practically promising that she will share the secret with him. This isn't seperate from telling him a secret, this is the first thin slice of the big secret salami.
>I'm working on a way to tell others, and I'll work hard to make sure you're there when I do. I suspect I'll need your aid then.

Him waiting outside the room to guard it from attack while we disclose is still 'being there'. Exact words matter and all. The intent is certainly that he learn it as well, but if he's not willing to swear to secrecy it's not an absolute promise to include him in the actual instruction.

Toboe said:
They can use the Gate to convince the Norse that their cultivation is lacking something and then use that as an in to preach Christ and teach Zeal.
Tell them that they can't open the door, that it would kill them, because they lack faith in God.
Then the few in the group who try are proof for the rest.
Norse learn Zeal? Proof of God!

Nothing in that would be 'claiming pagan magics as the work of Christ'.

Well, the Gate is seemingly universal to all cultivation, under different names, so, uh, they know this already and can do this already. Or at least as well now as they could even knowing about Odr. How do you think they get Zeal, after all?

Toboe said:
Its a shard of the big mosaic.
For specific examples I'd have to see what is in the disclosure we are promising him.
Before that, I can't give specific examples and only say that it would contribute to them understanding the Norse and them understanding the Norse too much would be an advantage for them.
Yeah, I admit thats vague.

I mean, the plan for any eventual disclosure is how Odr cultivation works. As best we understand it. Like, the methods people can use to become an Odr cultivator, what Odr does, and so on. Revolutionary stuff to the Norse, but I suspect to a Christian it amounts to "Most Norsemen don't have a Zeal equivalent? And this is how they'd get one? Huh."

Toboe said:
Only if they go for openly telling them and not for anonymous rumors or reverse psychology.

Reverse psychology is gonna be hard to get people to do something hideously dangerous and borderline suicidal like this "Christians agree with our own wise men, do not jump off cliffs." is, uh, not the sort of thing that's gonna get a lot of people jumping off cliffs. Rumors are even harder since actually spreading rumors about the initiation to True Cultivation as a Norsemen is likely gonna cause the Enemy to kill you if you're close to correct.

Toboe said:
Freeing true cultivatio and spreading it is our goal, isn't it?
(With completely freeing it requiring the end of the enemy)

Sure, but once everyone knows this the Christians will learn it rapidly. Like, if all Norsemen know a 'secret' then it's not gonna be much of a secret for long, is it? As I've said before, anything taught to large numbers of kids is not gonna be a secret for long.

Toboe said:
So he'd give them tactical advice, but they wouldn't pry to get every bit he knows to make their own judgements?
And the questions would only be of martial nature and priests/people hoping to spread christianity wouldn't have questions of their own?

I would generally assume that they are unlikely to think he has any deep insights into cultivation since anyone in a 'nest of vipers' style court is very likely not to have a high opinion of him as a scholar.

And people wanting to spread Christianity peacefully aren't gonna care about in-depth cultivation stuff. You don't need to be a Feudal Cultivator to become Christian. They'll care about cultural stuff, but he already knows that, or could learn it without us.

Constenanto · Jul 14, 2023

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Well, the Gate is seemingly universal to all cultivation, under different names

How do we know this?

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Sure, but once everyone knows this the Christians will learn it rapidly. Like, if all Norsemen know a 'secret' then it's not gonna be much of a secret for long, is it? As I've said before, anything taught to kids is not gonna be a secret for long.

This... isn't necessarily true? We know nothing about Knight's cultivations beyond their terminology. Blackhand didn't know much, either, but to be fair he has memory loss so he may have actually known more. Although I'm not convinced on that.

DeadmanwalkingXI · Jul 14, 2023

Constenanto said:
How do we know this?

I mean, all evidence suggests that all cultivators are mainlining the same kind of energy (as mutated by their own faith and culture), or at least all getting some kinda energy into their soulscape somehow. Like, Gabriel has a Tabernacle in which he stores his Zeal just like we have a Well for our Odr and gains X Zeal per turn by meditating...details certainly differ, but I think it's pretty clear he has a way to open his soul and let that energy in.

Constenanto said:
This... isn't necessarily true? We know nothing about Knight's cultivations beyond their terminology. Blackhand didn't know much, either, but to be fair he has memory loss so he may have actually known more. Although I'm not convinced on that.

Sure, and every Knight wouldn't know it about the Norse even then, but we're talking about the consequences of a single Knight knowing here. If all Norsemen know something, then at least a few Knights finding out is inevitable.

The reverse is also true, and I will bet you anything you like that out there is at least one Norsemen who knows quite a lot about chivalric cultivation and exactly how it works. Halla, and even Hallr, who was not a specialist in knowledge of Knights and Feudal Cultivators, are not the specific people with that knowledge, but I'm sure they exist.

Constenanto · Jul 14, 2023

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
I mean, all evidence suggests that all cultivators are mainlining the same kind of energy (as mutated by their own faith and culture), or at least all getting some kinda energy into their soulscape somehow. Like, Gabriel has a Tabernacle in which he stores his Zeal just like we have a Well for our Odr and gains X Zeal per turn by meditating...details certainly differ, but I think it's pretty clear he has a way to open his soul and let that energy in.

I guess you're right... has some implications that I don't really like though. Does that mean that every culture is connected to the Dark Forest in someway, and they just have different names for it? Wouldn't be the biggest fan of that.

Alectai · Jul 14, 2023

We were told that the Gate is universal to all thinking beings by the Seeress, that feels important, just like how the Fundamental Truths seem to be universal.

("All Men Die" sounds like it's a Norse thing only, but it's really not, most paths to enlightenment tend to eject from the Secular World eventually, which might as well be dead as far as the world is concerned. "All Men Die, but some paths eventually make you no longer be human." We've also seen that the Norse system is no exception, with the presence of Einherjar which we previously confirmed--formerly dead people who were headhunted by a God or other powerful force and trained into potent servants--but ones who don't generally fuck around in Midgaard )

At the end of the day, one's culture and mythology are people trying to make sense of universal phenomena, "The Gate is a universal trait, but what people pull out of it is colored by their culture" isn't a huge stretch.

Constenanto · Jul 14, 2023

Alectai said:
("All Men Die" sounds like it's a Norse thing only, but it's really not, most paths to enlightenment tend to eject from the Secular World eventually, which might as well be dead as far as the world is concerned. "All Men Die, but some paths eventually make you no longer be human" )

Given that the typical Chinese cultivation goal is immortality, I'm not so sure of this.

Shard · Jul 14, 2023

Imperial Fister said:
[Gabriel Blackstone]
Endurance: (7/16) | Focus: (0/7) (33 Replenish/66 With Armor)
Capacity: (14)

Third Bead of the Fourth Decade
Fervor: 23/99 (Replenish: 33|66) | Zeal: 150 (105 Left)

Grace: (12) (36 Zeal)
Soma: (8) | Infusion: (8)
Psyche: (7) | Infusion: (7)
Pneuma: (5) | Infusion: (5)

Combat Dice: (164d4)

3 Meditation Slots

Armor
Armor: (33/33) | Rebuke: 6 (11)
Boost: +15 to Rolls/+3 Speed | Charges: (1/3)
Armor Blessings
-Freedom of Motion
-Defying the Onslaught
-Long Lost Companions

Martial Styles
-Blackstone Blade - Mastery: (6) | Dice: (36d4)

Looking at Feudal Cultivation:

Unlike the Norse, Feudal Europe is much more individual, which reflects in how their Fervor/Zeal is gained. The Norse get Orthsirr from others, Odr from internalizing Orthsirr (something along those lines).

A Feudal Cultivator seems to:

1) Have Grace, which gives Zeal. Probably get Grace by going to church and having revelatory moments or somesuch. Or eating Blessed Bread that has bits of Jesus in it.
2) Use that Zeal to generate Fervor and/or break into 1st Bead of 1st Decade (3 Fervor Max, 1 Fervor Regen - No Armor boost yet)
3) Start looping, using Fervor to generate Zeal to break into 2nd, 3rd, etc Beads, which increases Fervor cap, which lets you get more Zeal, etc. Presumably at some point, seemingly at the 5th Decade, you start hitting sharply diminishing returns to this looping process.

Other things worth noting:

Endurance seems to be Body Stat + Body Infusion Stat.
Feudal Cultivation seems to start from Internal, then External. No Zeal equals no Fervor. Norse Cultivation is the opposite, External into Internal. This makes sense culturally, because Feudal Europe is stratified as hell.
Orthsirr based cultivation is notably vulnerable to conversion, you retain your Orthsirr and you get an entire extra cultivation base to work off from. Without knowledge of Odr Norse Cultivation is screwed culturally.
Gabriel's Base Fervor Regen is the same as his Armor. Coincidence?

Things worth studying:

The hell does Finnish Cultivation work? Internal -> External? External - > Internal?

Constenanto said:
This... isn't necessarily true? We know nothing about Knight's cultivations beyond their terminology. Blackhand didn't know much, either, but to be fair he has memory loss so he may have actually known more. Although I'm not convinced on that.

Blackhand once knew Latin. Supposedly.

......WAIT

Guys, did we save the Shadowbear's Heart? Did we give it to Abjorn to eat it for cool Shadow Powers????

Or is the Bear just not magic enough.

Alectai · Jul 14, 2023

Constenanto said:
Given that the typical Chinese cultivation goal is immortality, I'm not so sure of this.

A Xian is not considered to be human. The entire point of Daoist Cultivation is to use internal alchemy to transmute yourself to a perfect, undying Celestial Immortal, free of all mortal concerns.

Shard · Jul 14, 2023

Also worth noting is that Gabriel could draw Fervor/Gain Zeal/Whatever even though he was in Norselands.

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Sure, but once everyone knows this the Christians will learn it rapidly. Like, if all Norsemen know a 'secret' then it's not gonna be much of a secret for long, is it? As I've said before, anything taught to large numbers of kids is not gonna be a secret for long.

Gabriel didn't even know about Shapeshifting..

..Or the Gift of Tongues, for that matter.

Constenanto · Jul 14, 2023

Alectai said:
A Xian is not considered to be human. The entire point of Daoist Cultivation is to use internal alchemy to transmute yourself to a perfect, undying Celestial Immortal, free of all mortal concerns.

Uh, right? I feel like that's more technical if anything. I got the impression the Norse's tenet of 'All Men Die' wasn't 'everyone can be killed some way' but rather that true immortality is impossible. Whereas the Chinese want to achieve transcendence as a result of it become immortal/perfect. Or at least that's how I usually see it in novels. Never heard about this internal alchemy stuff I'm going to be honest. Or a Xian.

DeadmanwalkingXI · Jul 14, 2023

Constenanto said:
I guess you're right... has some implications that I don't really like though. Does that mean that every culture is connected to the Dark Forest in someway, and they just have different names for it? Wouldn't be the biggest fan of that.

I think different Cultivation paths may open your soul up to different places (ie: the Dark Forest, Heaven, and so on) but the soul itself is still structurally the same.

Shard said:
A Feudal Cultivator seems to:

1) Have Grace, which gives Zeal. Probably get Grace by going to church and having revelatory moments or somesuch. Or eating Blessed Bread that has bits of Jesus in it.
2) Use that Zeal to generate Fervor and/or break into 1st Bead of 1st Decade (3 Fervor Max, 1 Fervor Regen - No Armor boost yet)
3) Start looping, using Fervor to generate Zeal to break into 2nd, 3rd, etc Beads, which increases Fervor cap, which lets you get more Zeal, etc. Presumably at some point, seemingly at the 5th Decade, you start hitting sharply diminishing returns to this looping process.

Steps #2 and #3 of this process are pretty speculative. It's not clear whether Fervor or Grace comes first for one thing. It's plausible, but it's not proven.

Shard said:
Orthsirr based cultivation is notably vulnerable to conversion, you retain your Orthsirr and you get an entire extra cultivation base to work off from.

Given that most people in Christian lands are not cultivators at all, I'm not sure this is a viable route to converting more than a few people. We dunno how it works exactly, but it can't be done on larger scales, or they'd all be cultivators. Maybe that's just it being risky, but it seems more like an inherent numbers limitation of some sort.

Shard said:
Gabriel's Base Fervor Regen is the same as his Armor. Coincidence?

Good catch. Yeah, that's probably not entirely a coincidence.

Shard said:
Gabriel didn't even know about Shapeshifting..

..Or the Gift of Tongues, for that matter.

Indeed, but many Christians clearly know about both. Again, not saying 'all Christians will know this as soon as Norsemen do', I'm saying once all Norsemen do some Christian somewhere will learn it. It becoming common knowledge would be an entirely different matter...but telling Gabriel things doesn't result in that anyway.

Shard · Jul 14, 2023

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
I think different Cultivation paths may open your soul up to different places (ie: the Dark Forest, Heaven, and so on) but the soul itself is still structurally the same.

The soul seems to be restructured the moment you start internal cultivation.

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Given that most people in Christian lands are not cultivators at all, I'm not sure this is a viable route to converting more than a few people. We dunno how it works exactly, but it can't be done on larger scales, or they'd all be cultivators. Maybe that's just it being risky, but it seems more like an inherent numbers limitation of some sort.

The limitation could be Grace. Which seems more valuable for a Feudal Cultivator than a Norse cultivator comapratively, since it gives cultivation resources on top of presumably a 2d4 training dice (which if the 2d4 is something like [0,0,1,1] would make them ~50% better than hamingja for training purposes especially for a single stat).

.......I wonder if eating that Blessed Bread would have given us Grace, which would have been !!!FUN!!! stuff.

Speedrunning a Neutral End that way would have been briefly humorous. Briefly.

Oshha · Jul 14, 2023

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Given that most people in Christian lands are not cultivators at all, I'm not sure this is a viable route to converting more than a few people. We dunno how it works exactly, but it can't be done on larger scales, or they'd all be cultivators. Maybe that's just it being risky, but it seems more like an inherent numbers limitation of some sort.

From the below statement, I do believe that all Christians can cultivate given that they technically do so whenever they attend mass.

Imperial Fister said:
Technically, by attending mass all Christians cultivate, but they are not cultivators, no. It's just that Sergeants-at-Arms are typically old enough to have received enough of the Eucharist that they have a certain level of power beyond mortal. Not a lot, mind you, but it's enough that there should be a distinction.

Alectai · Jul 14, 2023

Yeah, it's probably Grace that's the bottleneck. The vast majority of Christians only have Grace 1 or 2, which isn't enough to make much progress or leave you with a great deal of Fervor or Zeal to upgrade your stuff, especially since you have other things to do as well.

Imagine that we had a budget of maybe 5 to 10 Orthstirr per turn that had to be distributed across every stat we had, no fucking wonder the majority of Christians are weak.

It also means that more potent Sacraments or just being born in the right social class gives you a gigantic advantage over everyone else. Let's say the average Page starts training with a Grace of 6-8? They'd be able to very quickly become formidable. While Norse don't really start accumulating Hamingja beyond what they're born with until they're old enough to go on adventures, even if they start with simpler ones. If you also include that their base training dice are something like 2d4 per point of Grace... Well, that adds up real fast.

Skippy · Jul 14, 2023

Great update, and what a satisfying conclusion to an epic battle of rivals, with real emotional weight. Feels like this was quite closely matched, and if Gabriel had a better read on our tactics and how we'd approach the fight, he could definitely have won this.

Also, big congrats to @DeadmanwalkingXI on a very successful plan which seems like it got us basically the best possible outcome.

JustGazzer said:
That is a good point, but I'm thinking like...

At what point does he stop being an English In Norse Society and just starts Being...Norse?

What age did he come to Norse a Thrall? 14? 15? Came during Year Two. He's been here 6 years. He's spent long, formative years here. If he came here at fifteen, he's spent what, 30%~ of his life here so far? That number is only increasing. It doesn't seem like he very much wants to leave. He could, he's not a Thrall anymore, iirc. He's a freeman.

But I have a feeling he won't

Not while Halla still lives, at least.

At some point, not to long from now, in 4 years, it'll be 40%, five years after that, 9 Years from now, it'll be 50% of his life.

Half of his life then, spent among the Norse, in less then a decade's time

At what point will he catch himself thinking of the Northlands as home?

Has it already happened? Would we notice?
At what point does he hear the Thunder and think- if just for a moment- not of The Christ-God, but of Thor?
I've always been of the thought that conversion happened on both sides, Historically, I mean, even if Christianity won out in the end.

What would a Crisis of Faith like that do to his Cultivation? What if it's already happening?

That sort of stuff

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
The culture and the religion are separate, though related. I can see Gabriel gradually becoming part of the culture...part of the religion? Not so much. He's clearly quite devout.

On the one hand, that's true, but on the other hand... I feel like it might not be that quite simple, like there's probably some bleedover from culture into faith, and vice-versa.

He's definitely going to have some interesting stories to tell when he gets home.

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
...though that pace was wildly unsustainable for us, obviously...we could maybe have managed a round 4, but he would've wrecked us on Round 5.

In fairness, we would have also killed him in Round 3. But yeah, definitely implications for if we're in a situation where we're fighting a few fights roughly in our weight class without time to rest in between.

On this note, one thing I was thinking about whilst nursing a migraine today is what our "maximum sustainable" combat output would look like, I.E. the best defence we could put up without spending Orthstirr like water. I think it would look something like using only our Combat Pool to power our Sword/Atgeir Bodyguard plus some Perfect Defences where situationally viable, and then mostly using Basic Attacks to refill our our Stoked Pool which powers one Contested Movement/turn, or is added onto the dice pool for the one attack a turn we're spending Orthstirr on.

Constenanto · Jul 14, 2023

So like, is Christian power based on genuine belief rather than fame? As in, instead of having to go out and get achievments, someone that is theoretically super pious could just stay in one spot and become a super cultivator if they stay for long enough?

DeadmanwalkingXI · Jul 14, 2023

Shard said:
The soul seems to be restructured the moment you start internal cultivation.

Sure. I meant structurally the same as a baseline before you start.

Shard said:
The limitation could be Grace. Which seems more valuable for a Feudal Cultivator than a Norse cultivator comapratively, since it gives cultivation resources on top of presumably a 2d4 training dice (which if the 2d4 is something like [0,0,1,1] would make them ~50% better than hamingja for training purposes especially for a single stat).

I think 2d4 Training Dice is kinda speculative (though plausible) and the dice going like that is wildly speculative. Like, we do not have the least clue of how their d4s work for non-combat stuff so any numbers are pure guesswork with no evidence to back it up at all.

Oshha said:
From the below statement, I do believe that all Christians can cultivate given that they technically do so whenever they attend mass.

Sure, but they don't seem to do so in a way Norsemen would find super useful comparatively, so I don't think it's a major conversion tool.

Alectai said:
Yeah, it's probably Grace that's the bottleneck. The vast majority of Christians only have Grace 1 or 2, which isn't enough to make much progress or leave you with a great deal of Fervor or Zeal to upgrade your stuff, especially since you have other things to do as well.

Imagine that we had a budget of maybe 5 to 10 Orthstirr per turn that had to be distributed across every stat we had, no fucking wonder the majority of Christians are weak.

I don't think most can even qualify for a single point of Grace on the scale Gabriel has it or it'd work out differently. Like, with Grace 1 and 3 Zeal per turn (again, based on Gabriel), if their costs are the same as Norsemen's they could get to Infused 3 in every stat within less than 2 years. Getting the stats to 3 in the first place would take a little longer with only a few Training Dice...but not so long they wouldn't have them by adulthood. And that alone would be 6 Endurance each, Focus 3, and rolling at least 3d on pretty much everything...which they very much do not have. Even 1 Zeal a turn would rapidly get them to Infusion 1 in everything...which is to say Endurance 2 and Focus 1, and again, that's not true of most of those Christians we fought.

Most of them have to have, like, 1/10 that Grace or less. Probably much less. We're talking less than 1 Zeal a year kind of less.

Skippy said:
Great update, and what a satisfying conclusion to an epic battle of rivals, with real emotional weight. Feels like this was quite closely matched, and if Gabriel had a better read on our tactics and how we'd approach the fight, he could definitely have won this.

Also, big congrats to @DeadmanwalkingXI on a very successful plan which seems like it got us basically the best possible outcome.

Thanks!

Skippy said:
On the one hand, that's true, but on the other hand... I feel like it might not be that quite simple, like there's probably some bleedover from culture into faith, and vice-versa.

He's definitely going to have some interesting stories to tell when he gets home.

Oh definitely. Assuming he decides to go any time soon.

Skippy said:
In fairness, we would have also killed him in Round 3. But yeah, definitely implications for if we're in a situation where we're fighting a few fights roughly in our weight class without time to rest in between.

True, but yeah, I was talking about needing to fight other people afterwards, or having to fight someone even slightly more hardcore than Gabriel.

Skippy said:
On this note, one thing I was thinking about whilst nursing a migraine today is what our "maximum sustainable" combat output would look like, I.E. the best defence we could put up without spending Orthstirr like water. I think it would look something like using only our Combat Pool to power our Sword/Atgeir Bodyguard plus some Perfect Defences where situationally viable, and then mostly using Basic Attacks to refill our our Stoked Pool which powers one Contested Movement/turn, or is added onto the dice pool for the one attack a turn we're spending Orthstirr on.

It's too circumstance dependent, I think. When fighting nothing enemies like mortals or troll-men, our 'maximum sustainable' looks very different from fighting a peer-level opponent. And it'll all change as we develop, as well.

Constenanto said:
So like, is Christian power based on genuine belief rather than fame? As in, instead of having to go out and get achievments, someone that is theoretically super pious could just stay in one spot and become a super cultivator if they stay for long enough?

I think they probably could under the right circumstances, yes.

Shard · Jul 14, 2023

Skippy said:
Great update, and what a satisfying conclusion to an epic battle of rivals, with real emotional weight. Feels like this was quite closely matched, and if Gabriel had a better read on our tactics and how we'd approach the fight, he could definitely have won this.

Meanwhile in Gabrielquest Halla Rematch 2.1:

"Fucking hell, how did we manage to roll ZERO successes on our 24d4 Psyche(Tactics) roll????"

DeadmanwalkingXI · Jul 14, 2023

Shard said:
Meanwhile in Gabrielquest Halla Rematch 2.1:

"Fucking hell, how did we manage to roll ZERO successes on our 24d4 Tactics roll????"

For the record, I suspect his Tactics is more on par with ours in number of dice. Stats seem to be the same scale so I suspect skills are as well for non-combat stuff...whether that results in less successes or more depends on how their dice work.

Shard · Jul 14, 2023

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
For the record, I suspect his Tactics is more on par with ours in number of dice. Stats seem to be the same scale so I suspect skills are as well for non-combat stuff...whether that results in less successes or more depends on how their dice work.

I assume Psyche 7 for 14d4, and probably Tactics 5 for 10d4. I also figure successes is probably [0,0,1,1], average 1 success per rank in either Psyche/Tactics.

---

Also an interesting parallel between Christian and Norse Cultivation:

In Norse Cultivation, you're descended from the Gods through Aske and Emblar. You are naturally already a bit divine, a Cultivator.
In Christian Cultivation, you're not inherently special, but you can eat a bit of god to become divine (Blessed Bread), and thereby become a Cultivator.

NorseQuest (A Norse Xianxia)

One and Many

Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion

One and Many

Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion

One and Many

One and Many

Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion

Labrador Wrestling Champion

One and Many

One and Many