Preliminary Combat Tier List (Alectai)
Preliminary Combat Tier List
Relax! It's just a bit of friendly quantification!
One of the great headaches with the baseline of Orthstirr Cultivation being so... Fluid in nature is that it's difficult to eyeball the Threat Rating of a given entity. Fortunately, as there are no formal numbers, we have the freedom to make them up ourselves

Enclosed are my current Best Guesses as to how the combat tiers shake out.

Mortal-class
The level expected of a human being who doesn't perform any cultivation what-so-ever. Generally has a total dice pool not exceeding 10, and only 1 to 2 endurance points. Rarely--if ever--has anything that could qualify as a Trick. Mortal-class foes are only threats to established experts either in overwhelming numbers, or when augmented by actual Cultivators.
Examples: Troll-Men, Men-at-Arms

Novice-class
Cultivators who have some power, but don't see fit to translate that into combat ability. Relatively uncommon, as few will stay in the Novice-class for long, but it can show up when attacking someone's base of operations, and while they're weak and inexperienced, they can't be entirely dismissed, as if they commit their full dice pool to an attack, they might very well manage to tilt an otherwise even battle. Generally has a total dice pool not exceeding 20 dice, and no more than 4 Endurance. Might have one or two notable Tricks.
Examples: Pages, Norse Women and Children, Sergeant-at-Arms

Warmain-class
Cultivators who have gained a comfortable familiarity with their craft, and can be trusted to meaningfully contribute to greater conflicts. This is the level of amateur Raiders and junior Squires, and each is likely to pose a threat even to higher ranked Cultivators, to the point where this is the first rank that genuinely contributes to a faction's war potential. Generally has a total dice pool not exceeding 40 dice, and around 5-6 Endurance. Will definitely have one potent Trick up their sleeves and a coherent battle strategy, though will rarely have something potent to fall back on if that falls through for any reason.
Examples: Junior Squires, Typical Raid-Ready Norseman. Weaker Monsters.

Adept-class
Cultivators who have seen the proverbial elephant and come back in one piece, an Adept is a survivor of at least one modest campaign, and can rest easy knowing that they can secure their home against most kinds of threats. While not exceptional in any particular sense, an Adept has sanded the worst of the sharp-edges off of their technique, and gained the confidence of a warrior--even if they decide not to advance further. Generally has a total dice pool not exceeding 70 dice, and between 7-9 Endurance. Has further refined their primary battle strategy and developed the rudiments of secondary options if their favored choice isn't viable for some reason.
Examples: Junior Stonesons, Many Errants, Most Adult Norsemen who haven't made war their trade

Expert-class
Cultivators who have risen above the levels of their peers and gained a measure of renown, Experts can challenge Monsters, serve as strongpoints in war, and are often the peak of what can be called 'Deniable' assets in the various intrigues of Europe. While far from unassailable, an Expert is a genuine threat to all but the very pinnacle fighters. Many elite orders will seek to gain the allegiance of an Expert, as they serve as the mailed fist of Europe's forces. Generally has a total dice pool not exceeding 110 dice, with anywhere from 10-11 Endurance. Has a fully mature combat strategy, and several offramps to handle difficult situations comfortably. Are almost never considered Trivial Opponents.
Examples: Senior Squires and Knights up to the 5th Decade, Senior Stonesons, presumably Varangian Guard, experienced Thanes

Master-class
Cultivators who have beaten the odds again and again, reaching a level of power that lesser folk can only dream of. They have often forgotten more about warfare than ordinary people have ever learned, and refined their tactics and strength of will over and over again in the hottest of furnaces. A true Master is one to be feared, and are usually considered to be the peak of what is considered 'Possible' to the majority of the populace, as most regions will require a few Masters as security against the work of monsters or hostile factions. Generally has less than 160 combat dice in their pool, with somewhere between 12-14 Endurance. Are usually completely unassailable within their home ground, and can likely make short work of single Experts in a fight.
Examples: Junior Ironbrothers, Knights up to the Eighth Decade, Presumably Varangian Veterans. Thanes with a great amount of territory to control.

Champion-Class
There are Masters, and then there are those who the Masters look up to, a Champion is the strong right hand of Kings and Warlords, challenged by few, and bested by fewer still. They have the right to demand nearly any price for their service, and the presence of a Champion in any territory can be expected to deter all but the most determined of foes. A proper Champion has no discernable weaknesses, either having mastered their specialty to such a degree that evading it is nigh impossible, or having mastered a diverse set of abilities to claim victory in any scenario. Generally does not exceed 220 combat dice in their pool, though degrees of Endurance vary at this level, and is largely irrelevant, because for any Champion to sustain all but the most glancing of injuries risks being outright destroyed at the level of power being displayed here.
Examples: Knights up to the 11th Decade, Greater Monsters, Senior Ironbrothers

Heroic-Class
The absolute pinnacle of the Secular World, those who backstop entire nations--or forces with similar influence. A Hero is a force of nature given form, and nothing short of another Hero can hope to bring one down. Specific details are currently unknown, but it takes some truly outrageous nonsense to rise above 'Mere' Mastery to reach the Heroic-class.
Examples: Steelfathers, Knights above the Eleventh Decade. Legendary Monsters.

????-Class and Beyond
Higher tiers than Heroic-Class exist, but for whatever reason, they seem to concern themselves with Other Affairs beyond the Secular World. No concrete examples of Beyond Heroic Class have been confirmed--though it is likely that Atilla is in this range, as are Crucifix Knights (Those who have reached the Fifteenth Decade) and presumably elite Einherjar
 
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Now, with that said.

I'd probably peg Halla as being about middle-Expert, Sten at either the very tip-top of Expert or just barely into Master, and Steinarr as defining the uttermost peak of Master-class. When using Punching-Up and considering her Odr Boosts, I'd say Halla can just barely inch her way into the very bottom of Master-class, but that only applies when she's fighting a Master, so that's a dubious benefit.

Blackhand in his prime was either a peak Hero or into a hypothetical tier above that. Though the implication I get is that once you're above the Heroic-class, you're mostly swearing off secular fuckery and focused on more esoteric conflicts.
 
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There is no a hard and fast rule that three segments is fine, it is at best a rough benchmark that moderators extend out of kindness, and may stop extending when there is a consistent pattern of spaghetti posting. It goes against the spirit of Rule 4.

The reason we have this rule is that multiple quotes makes the discussion hard to follow, and tends to disaggregate discussions into an incoherent mess of individual tangents which go on forever. A single reply means that you need to actually make a coherently argued point with a clear thesis. There is a reason articles and essays are not written as a long chain of individual disorganised snippets.
The problem with the spaghetti rule is that no one ever punishes someone for talking about two, three, five, or for that matter ten disparate things in the same post when there aren't quote blocks involved.

As such, the argument that it's necessary to keep posts from being incoherent masses of individual tangents seems quite badly misaligned with the rule that supposedly fulfills this necessity. Because it looks at a purely superficial structural feature of the post (the presence or absence of quote blocks) and not at the underlying coherence of the posts.

It makes great sense as something that exists to legislate someone's aesthetic dislike of the quote box function, and very little sense as a way to force people to post nice, cohesive, single-topic essays as posts.

If that's even desirable, given that nice, cohesive, single-topic essays aren't really a good match for this format or for the context of, say, a quest thread.
 
Preliminary Combat Tier List

I think the dice number for Master is too broad. The same category for people with 85 dice and more than double that? It just stops being useful, IMO.

Also, I think the Endurance numbers are a bit off. For most Norse, barring Odr, having more than, like, 12 Endurance is not possible even if you're the baddest of the bad. Like, Steinarr, I suspect, has less Endurance than the Master level, or the very bottom end of it at best.

So basically I think Master should cap at, like, 120-150 dice and be 11-15 Endurance, with Heroic being anything higher.
 
I think the dice number for Master is too broad. The same category for people with 85 dice and more than double that? It just stops being useful, IMO.

Also, I think the Endurance numbers are a bit off. For most Norse, barring Odr, having more than, like, 12 Endurance is not possible even if you're the baddest of the bad. Like, Steinarr, I suspect, has less Endurance than the Master level, or the very bottom end of it at best.

So basically I think Master should cap at, like, 120-150 dice and be 11-15 Endurance, with Heroic being anything higher.

Hrm, maybe, like I said, it's preliminary!
 
Preliminary Combat Tier List
Good work, have a Reward Dice

I would maybe mention Men-at-Arms and Sergeants-at-Arms on there as well, likely at Mortal and Novice respectively. Men-at-Arms might be already covered by continental soldiery, but I think that it's worth at least mentioning a distinction between Sergeants-at-Arms and the regular soldiery.
 
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Is may take on Master about right? Or should I scale it down like Deadman suggests?

To be clear, you could also scale it up and put a new category between Expert and Master and I'd be just as happy. My issue is mostly with people with 90 dice and 180 dice being in the same category, because it makes the category not actually that useful as a descriptor since it encompasses too many wildly divergent things.

Like, if 'Master' can mean either Lars or Steinarr (and I think the current one can) we need a new category, because those two are not playing on anything close to the same level.
 
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[X] Hey, Gary Tuskpuncher is selling these weird, cheese-covered sticks of bread, maybe you should go buy one?
 
Good work, have a Reward Dice

I would maybe mention Men-at-Arms and Sergeants-at-Arms on there as well, likely at Mortal and Novice respectively. Men-at-Arms might be already covered by continental soldiery, but I think that it's worth at least mentioning a distinction between Sergeants-at-Arms and the regular soldiery.
Do their sergeants-at-arms cultivate?
 
I'm pretty sure Reidar Swordfury wasn't anywhere near as badass as Halfdan when we met him. Halfdan is in the 'Almost Peak' category, only a category up from Sten. By those metrics, I think Reidar tops out at around Lars power level, and that's a generous assessment leaving room for him to have grown in the intervening time. We, meanwhile, seem very likely to hit around the power level Sten was at when fighting Lars (note: Not Sten's actual power level, as he has not stopped advancing) by the time we next see Reidar.

I mean, he would've been above the 'Upper Top' category when he attacked him if he was around Lars' power level. Him being in the 'Almost Peak' category doesn't seem like an impossibility to me.
 
I mean, sure? But my point is that by that measure, so was Lars (since Sten is Upper Top and was less powerful than him by all the evidence).

Yeah, and Reidar has had 5 years to improve himself, and will presumably have more as I don't believe we're going to Vestfold anytime soon. While I'm not saying that him being in Halfdan's ballpark is guaranteed - it's on the 'unlikely' side of things, in my opinion - but I don't expect him to be comparable to Lars either.
 
Is may take on Master about right? Or should I scale it down like Deadman suggests?
Hmm, I think Deadman has a point with the too broad of a dice range. Maybe you can add in an 'Adept' rank between Warmain and Expert?

Also, the Endurance numbers are a little bit too high for Master and Heroic.
Do their sergeants-at-arms cultivate?
Technically, by attending mass all Christians cultivate, but they are not cultivators, no. It's just that Sergeants-at-Arms are typically old enough to have received enough of the Eucharist that they have a certain level of power beyond mortal. Not a lot, mind you, but it's enough that there should be a distinction.

0~0~0

Anyways, voting is now closed.
Scheduled vote count started by Imperial Fister on Jun 17, 2023 at 5:57 PM, finished with 59 posts and 13 votes.

  • [X] Hey, Gary Tuskpuncher is selling these weird, cheese-covered sticks of bread, maybe you should go buy one?
    [X] How would you go about reinforcing the gate and the pathways, specifically? Or guiding the energy to heal?
    [X] Is there any seidr for gathering information, or does that all fall under seersight?
    [X] How do curses work then? Defending against them seems like we'd need to know more about their mechanism. Ditto evil spirits.
    [X] You said a connection to the Dark Forest, I've heard it a time or two from Blackhand, how does that interact with Seidr and what are the big things I need to worry about with it?
    [X][Questions] Do you realize what you did to yourself by inviting my questions?
    [X] How much do you know about this... gate?
    [X] Is there a way to destabilize someone's gate if you prefer their soul be obliterated?
    [X] Would it be possible to manipulate another person's Aspects with seidr?
    [X] What would happen if you let some of the energy that came in through the gate remain?
    [X][Questions] You said that Stabilizing Palm opens a gate which the body closes. Is there Seidr to force close the gate?
    [X][Questions] You said that Stabilizing Palm opens a gate which the body closes. Is there Seidr to enter the gate, like with your Fylgja?
    [X][Questions] How long would it take to learn the fertility spell? would it make someone who is very good at it even better? Would be something good to train Seidr at home, i could judge its effectiveness, and thereby how well I made it, based on my husbands.... *cough cough*
    [X][Questions] You and Blackhand had this trick where you looked each other in the eye to talk, can you teach me that? Could i use that with my Fylgja to send messages?
    [X][Questions] How does the "need to earn learning Seidr" work? What would I have to have my kids do so i can teach them basics when they are old enough?
    [X][Questions] How does the spirit work, like finding a Nisse for your farm, work?
    [X][Questions] What kind of blessings are there?
    [X][Questions] Do Seeresses use runes like weapon smith do?
    [X][Questions] Do Seeresses use items to enhance their capabilities? Like fighters use high quality weapons.
    [X][Questions] Is there a use for ones Fylgja in Seidr?
    [X][Questions] Do you know anything about shapecrafting?
 
Yeah, that works, I'll shift the numbers then, figuring out a good fluff for the extra rank might be a headache though :(
 
...
I just realized i forgot to ask about if our fireberries have any use in Seid.
Oh well, next time. Or the time after. Or whenever Solrun allows questions again.
 
Maybe you can add in an 'Adept' rank between Warmain and Expert?

Hmm. Dice-wise this'd probably be something like:

Mortal: Max 10 dice, 2 Endurance (as listed)
Novice: Max 20 dice, 4 Endurance (as listed)
Warmain: Max 40 dice, 5-6 Endurance (basically as listed, slightly lower caps)
Adept: Max 70 dice, 7-9 Endurance
Expert: Max 110 dice, 10-11 Endurance
Master: Max 160 dice, 12-14 Endurance
Heroic: Anything above that.

Yeah, that looks a lot more usable to me. The range still expands a bit, but it flows a lot smoother. That's what I'd personally advise for categories.
 
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Technically, by attending mass all Christians cultivate, but they are not cultivators, no. It's just that Sergeants-at-Arms are typically old enough to have received enough of the Eucharist that they have a certain level of power beyond mortal. Not a lot, mind you, but it's enough that there should be a distinction.

...So, do Knights and Squires really get anything cultivation-wise out of engaging in combat, or is combat merely how they "pay the bills" for the resources they require for cultivation? I recall that Christian cultivators don't get Muna, and I don't believe their Fervor or Zeal is necessarily tied to how their culture percieves them like the Norse do.
 
Maybe not?

Norse don't get power from violence, they get power from acclaim, glory and Nordic virtues.

So unless it was virtuous Christian violence*, I… don't think so.

*(Going off the New Testament, as the Old is rendered null, that would effectively be extremely rare against mortals, although non sapient beings are fair game if you're not shockingly cruel about it…

But it looks like feudal Christians may not be taking all their cues from the New Testament.)

The other way to look at this is that they draw power from the concept of chivalry as well, which is much more encouraging of violence.
 
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