So... just thinking about the various revelations about the Enemy holistically.

In effect, Norse Cultivation as it is practiced, was carefully crafted by the Norse Gods as a xianxia-style Inheritance to pass down to their children. Somewhere along the way, they killed Ymir, and he got all bitter about it. So now he is constantly messing with the norse, trying to prevent them from advancing in every way he can find, because he knows that's what the Gods want, and (bleep) those guys.

Like, there's no grand plan. There's no Deeper Truth. The Christian Cultivators don't have a problem with him because he doesn't ahve a problem with them. It's not that their cultivation style is somehow less vulnerable or anything. It's that Jesus Christ didn't murder Ymir at the dawn of time, so he doesn't care about Christian Cultivators.

This is all one long, enormously drawn out vendetta that this one guy has but he can't usefully attack the people he actually hates so he takes it out on their kids instead.

That... feels kind of appropriate, actually.

I think this is about 80-90% correct, but that Ymir does in fact hate all humans, just not as much as he does the Norse. I think, particularly based on the Neanderthals who serve him, that his death is to some degree a literalized metaphor for, well, the destruction of the Neanderthals...which kind of leads to hating all humans pretty directly. But it being a literalized metaphor also means his grudge with Odin and the Norse is a lot more personal and direct. I do still think he's probably tried to steer the Norse into attacking others to make everyone's lives worse via the conflict that creates, but it's definitely a tertiary priority at best if so.

But either way, yeah, he's just being vindictive for the sake of vindictiveness, no greater plan or anything.
 
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Why does everyone want to tell Gabriel actual secrets of Norse cultivation? What is there to gain?
Unless he actively keeps it a secret, that will leak the info into Christianity.
The same Christianity that wants to convert the Norse.

The best way to keep a secret is to not tell it.
[X] Offer to tell him what you meant if he tells you why he freaked out like that.
-[X] I want to grow into a strong warrior, not just like my father, but like my grandfather. The kind that does grand heroic deeds that my people will remember forever.

It is true. It is plausible. It avoids leaking info about Norse true Cultivation (and its weaknesses) to those not part of it.
 
So... just thinking about the various revelations about the Enemy holistically.

In effect, Norse Cultivation as it is practiced, was carefully crafted by the Norse Gods as a xianxia-style Inheritance to pass down to their children. Somewhere along the way, they killed Ymir, and he got all bitter about it. So now he is constantly messing with the norse, trying to prevent them from advancing in every way he can find, because he knows that's what the Gods want, and (bleep) those guys.

Like, there's no grand plan. There's no Deeper Truth. The Christian Cultivators don't have a problem with him because he doesn't ahve a problem with them. It's not that their cultivation style is somehow less vulnerable or anything. It's that Jesus Christ didn't murder Ymir at the dawn of time, so he doesn't care about Christian Cultivators.

This is all one long, enormously drawn out vendetta that this one guy has but he can't usefully attack the people he actually hates so he takes it out on their kids instead.

That... feels kind of appropriate, actually.
Mythologically speaking, Ymir got murdered in order to create the world, and everything we have, we got by plundering his corpse for it.

I think that the Norse belief that everything has a spirit was what created Ymir though.

Actually I think the Foemen were using the prior cultivation style that the Norsemen displaced.
 
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Why does everyone want to tell Gabriel actual secrets of Norse cultivation? What is there to gain?
Unless he actively keeps it a secret, that will leak the info into Christianity.
The same Christianity that wants to convert the Norse.

Well, nothing we tell him in the current plan is all that secret or actionable. Like, Norse cultivation being story-based is not all that secret, and the Three Truths are taught to children...there are plenty of Christians who know those things already (because anything taught to children is gonna get spread around). As for the implication that we have more secrets...I think we owe him that much.

We can argue about whether to tell him the details of Odr cultivation later when we actually think about doing that.
 
So... just thinking about the various revelations about the Enemy holistically.

In effect, Norse Cultivation as it is practiced, was carefully crafted by the Norse Gods as a xianxia-style Inheritance to pass down to their children. Somewhere along the way, they killed Ymir, and he got all bitter about it. So now he is constantly messing with the norse, trying to prevent them from advancing in every way he can find, because he knows that's what the Gods want, and (bleep) those guys.

Like, there's no grand plan. There's no Deeper Truth. The Christian Cultivators don't have a problem with him because he doesn't ahve a problem with them. It's not that their cultivation style is somehow less vulnerable or anything. It's that Jesus Christ didn't murder Ymir at the dawn of time, so he doesn't care about Christian Cultivators.

This is all one long, enormously drawn out vendetta that this one guy has but he can't usefully attack the people he actually hates so he takes it out on their kids instead.

That... feels kind of appropriate, actually.
You know, I am sure it has been brought up every time The Enemy is discussed, but we are fighting a daurg of them?
 
I think it's probably worth noting that from a mythological/mystical perspective, literally everyone and everything in Norse culture can trace descent from Ymir, who represents The World Before, what came before Ragnarok destroyed them, everything we leave behind when we became civilized people of villages and farms and not men of the forest and earth and spirits.

Also, I think cultures are actually very distinct in a real way. In a, the rules and context don't even match up, way.
 
Also, I think cultures are actually very distinct in a real way. In a, the rules and context don't even match up, way.

They definitely are to some degree, yeah. We know that the Danelaw brought Troll-Men to the British Isles for instance...cultures in this universe warp the laws of the world around them and make the world how they believe it to be by their presence.
 
We can argue about whether to tell him the details of Odr cultivation later when we actually think about doing that.
We are already making promises about involving him in that in the plan.
I'm working on a way to tell others, and I'll work hard to make sure you're there when I do. I suspect I'll need your aid then.

How many slices of the salami are we gonna make before we stop and ask If what we are doing is a good idea? Or will we just continue slice after slice, because we will always say about the slice in discussion "Where is the harm in telling him that? That is such a tiny piece of information!"?
 
We are already making promises about involving him in that in the plan.

How many slices of the salami are we gonna make before we stop and ask If what we are doing is a good idea? Or will we just continue slice after slice, because we will always say about the slice in discussion "Where is the harm in telling him that? That is such a tiny piece of information!"?

Fair enough, I suppose. Personally, I think telling Gabriel about Odr Cultivation probably is a fine idea for a few reasons.

Firstly, he owes us, if we ask him to keep quiet about Odr stuff he likely will. It's not the sort of secret he'd feel obligated to share, for reasons I'll get into below.

Secondly, and perhaps most importantly, it's not actually that useful to Christians anyway given its rarity among the Norse...like, what is the actionable military information there? That most of the Norse are weirdly fragile by the standards of Knights (and basically no other standards) due to uninfused stats? They knew that. That they have an Enemy who is attempting to restrict their Cultivation? They can't really utilize that without allying with a literal foreign devil...I can't imagine that not being more Sin than you can shake a stick at and thus not really viable...assuming the Enemy would even go for that (I suspect he would not). That the Norse need to own land to cultivate? I'm pretty sure feudalism was already the plan if they actively conquered the populace, and it doesn't stop Orthstirr use anyway. Like, knowing what we know about how Odr cultivation works doesn't actually reveal a whole lot of weaknesses that are militarily relevant, so I'm unclear why one Christian knowing that info is an issue.

Thirdly, all they need to learn this is to convert a single Odr cultivator to Christianity. You think that's never gonna happen? I'm pretty much positive it will, and hell, maybe already has. Like, Odr cultivation is a secret but it's not a secret you don't want to tell your friends, so some Christian is gonna learn this at some point, there's value in putting it off when it becomes widespread, but see the first point above.

Fourthly, Gabriel is from a full cultivation tradition with its secrets not all jealously guarded by a petty dick. I'll bet we can get him to reciprocate with some of the real secrets of Feudal cultivation, which may well be very worthwhile in figuring out the Norse version. An information swap of what we know for what he knows is very much in our favor.

Fifthly, Gabriel presents a possible way around the Enemy's disclosure restrictions. Does him telling the Enemy about Odr Cultivation provoke a lethal attack? We do not know, but I'd very much like to. That would be an interesting thing to experiment with...
 
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Why? Converting doesn't stop your cultivation, not inherently anyway, and it's not like Christianity doesn't have things to offer even the powerful.
More that the kind of people who are likely to unlock Odr cultivation are likely to be people who are.. unreceptive to being converted.

===

It's actually pretty wild that the Enemy, while freaking dead, can gank a full 90% of people initiating into Odr Cultivation with their traps and landmines alone. The hell did they even die in the first place,
 
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More that the kind of people who are likely to unlock Odr cultivation are likely to be people who are.. unreceptive to being converted.

I don't really agree with that. The type of people who unlock Odr cultivation are experimental and maybe a bit crazy...that sounds like exactly the kind of people who might convert to a new religion, at least potentially. There are other factors and I suspect them converting is gonna be rare...but not nonexistent. Not over the course of centuries.

It's actually pretty wild that the Enemy, while freaking dead, can gank a full 90% of people initiating into Odr Cultivation with their traps and landmines alone. The hell did they even die in the first place,

Odin is good at killing things.
 
We still need to ask Gabriel what is the deal with the Animal Companions of Knights and Squires. I am really interested in seeing if there is a Norse equivalent for them.

Are they "just" domesticated Spirit Beasts? or is there some deeper connection between them and a Cultivator?
 
I wonder if Ymir and Pangu are one and the same? They're pretty similar. Well, there are enough differences in the legend for them to be distinct, but I wonder if in this universe, the Pangu myth is merely a misinterpretation of what happened?

Eh, doesn't sound too likely at all, since I assume the Chinese can still cultivate properly. Although that doesn't necessarily mean they didn't have an Enemy like we do.
 
He cuts you off, indignation in his eyes and voice. "How can you say that? I lost! Not only that, but after losing I tried to kill you!" He spreads his arms wide, showing how defenseless he is. "By right, you could cut me down for such a breach of trust."

"A dreng is magnanimous in victory and gracious in defeat," you lean on Sagaseeker as you shrug. "Besides, neither of us won or lost."
So I do wonder,

How closely do Knightly ideals map up to the ideals of being a Dreng in Norse society? Like, is Gabriel's expectations based on Feudal Knight expectations or Norse Dreng expectations?

===

Is there a 'Herblore' skill or skill-trick we can pick up?

===

Would Gabriel get to know about our Twists?

Dressed in Rags, I think he and our extended family and everyone in Asvir knows at this point. (Thanks, Veny!)
Puncture, he got a rude surprise to here.
Punching Up did not get used.
 
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Firstly, he owes us, if we ask him to keep quiet about Odr stuff he likely will. It's not the sort of secret he'd feel obligated to share, for reasons I'll get into below.
He owes us, true.
Not the kind of secret he'd feel obligated to share?
I doubt that. I highly doubt it.
He may not feel it important or appropriate to share, but I bet other Christian cultivators will ask him about his stay and find it interesting and try to bore for things he isn't telling.
Not certain doom, but a real risk.

If i can't convince you that it is a bad idea, could you include asking him to swear "to keep secret what we tell him and other secrets of the Norse he may come to hear"?
Secondly, and perhaps most importantly, it's not actually that useful to Christians anyway given its rarity among the Norse...like, what is the actionable military information there? That most of the Norse are weirdly fragile by the standards of Knights (and basically no other standards) due to uninfused stats? They knew that. That they have an Enemy who is attempting to restrict their Cultivation? They can't really utilize that without allying with a literal foreign devil...I can't imagine that not being more Sin than you can shake a stick at and thus not really viable...assuming the Enemy would even go for that (I suspect he would not). That the Norse need to own land to cultivate? I'm pretty sure feudalism was already the plan if they actively conquered the populace, and it doesn't stop Orthstirr use anyway. Like, knowing what we know about how Odr cultivation works doesn't actually reveal a whole lot of weaknesses that are militarily relevant, so I'm unclear why one Christian knowing that info is an issue.
It can help them figure out other clues they find.

It allows them to customize their messaging when trying to convert.
(One option: make the Gate out to be a secret proving the power of Christ, something only true believes in Christ may open. Then show the convertee how to reach the Gate. If someone tries to open the Gate and dies use that as proof of the power of Christ as they weren't true believers yet. (True believers being deep into Feudal Christian cultivation))

It gives them a better model to understand the strength and weaknesses of Norse cultivators.

They need not work with the enemy to understand that it limits Norse cultivators growth, they could make traps based on it (like hints to true cultivation that are misleading and make the attempts much deadlier).

The land ownership part?
Has implications on the mobility of Norse cultivators for prolonged conflict (needs to return home to cultivate).
Has implications for backhanded deals (if you have to give land to Norse, try to make sure it isn't valid for true cultivation).
I'm unclear why one Christian knowing that info is an issue.
Both for the uses and the danger of spreading:
Gabriel will be exposed to courtly intrigue again when he returns.

His will and ability to keep it secret will be challenged by the vipersnest that is courtly intrigue.
If he fails, how to use it to harm us will be worked on by the same vipersnest.
Thirdly, all they need to learn this is to convert a single Odr cultivator to Christianity. You think that's never gonna happen? I'm pretty much positive it will, and hell, maybe already has. Like, Odr cultivation is a secret but it's not a secret you don't want to tell your friends, so some Christian is gonna learn this at some point, there's value in putting it off when it becomes widespread, but see the first point above.
They'd need an Odr cultivator.
Something rare.
One Faction knowing that secret has the goal of freeing the Norse (Blackhand, Ironjaw who knows how many more, potentially all Blackhand descendants named Hallr, (we may be the odd one out by not knowing If/how many allies we have in this fight ) ), a goal very at odds with conversion.
A different potential faction being those who embrace the curse of Steel and want to keep Odr a secret, because being stronger than others gives you power over them. Highly unlikely to convert and give up their privileged positions. (If they embrace Steel for its unchangingness, then conversion would be a huge change)
Fourthly, Gabriel is from a full cultivation tradition with its secrets not all jealously guarded by a petty dick. I'll bet we can get him to reciprocate with some of the real secrets of Feudal cultivation, which may well be very worthwhile in figuring out the Norse version. An information swap of what we know for what he knows is very much in our favor.
We could learn things about his cultivation, true.
We might want to try to steer the discussion to him telling us stuff if that is our goal.
Also, lesser caveat: He may remember that he isn't supposed to share Christian cultivation secrets. (With Jerasmus I'd call it a problem, but with Gabriel its probably just gonna dampen a bit how much we get)

Using Christian cultivation info to figure out Norse cultivation... might work, with the culture is foundation of cultivation I'm much more interested in exploding Halla to more facets of Norse culture and seing how those facets could fit into cultivation, but thats just a personal preference.
Fifthly, Gabriel presents a possible way around the Enemy's disclosure restrictions. Does him telling the Enemy about Odr Cultibvation provoke a lethal attack? We do not know, but I'd very much like to. That would be an interesting thing to experiment with...
Possible, interesting to learn.
Not very interesting option to take, imho. But would be good to know.

Hopefully he doesn't decide that our Enemy must be his God.
Nah, he knows we wouldn't expect him to help us in that case.
If he had the idea (not saying he would), the "but would she ask us for help against God?!" question could be answered easily with "How would she know that herb 'enemy' is Good?".
 
Jerasmus gained a lot from teaching us the Bible, and we still don't know just how exactly is it going to bite us in the ass down the line.

And that didn't involve any bit of cultivation knowledge.
 
Is there a 'Herblore' skill or skill-trick we can pick up?

We know the full skill list, so it's not a skill. It probably falls under Wildcraft, though I dunno if it'd require a Skill-Trick for most stuff. Maybe if we wanted seriously specialized stuff like poisons or something.

Dressed in Rags, I think he and our extended family and everyone in Asvir knows at this point. (Thanks, Veny!)

Actually, I don't think everyone in Asvir knows about Dressed In Rags, exactly. What was said at the trial was that we sent our fylgja 'under a magical shroud'. So that's all people know.

He owes us, true.
Not the kind of secret he'd feel obligated to share?
I doubt that. I highly doubt it.
He may not feel it important or appropriate to share, but I bet other Christian cultivators will ask him about his stay and find it interesting and try to bore for things he isn't telling.
Not certain doom, but a real risk.

If i can't convince you that it is a bad idea, could you include asking him to swear "to keep secret what we tell him and other secrets of the Norse he may come to hear"?

I don't see why we wouldn't do that at the time? This is super premature and weird. Also, as this is not a plan vote, me changing my own wording doesn't change anyone else's. Asking him to keep it a secret is something we do right before telling him an actual secret.

It can help them figure out other clues they find.

It allows them to customize their messaging when trying to convert.
(One option: make the Gate out to be a secret proving the power of Christ, something only true believes in Christ may open. Then show the convertee how to reach the Gate. If someone tries to open the Gate and dies use that as proof of the power of Christ as they weren't true believers yet. (True believers being deep into Feudal Christian cultivation))

Honestly, I'm pretty sure they can't do this specific example. Claiming pagan magics are the works of Christ seems Sin-heavy in the extreme, especially since they don't actually have any ability to open the Gate and help them deal with Odr.

Or, much more likely to be honest, they can instead do this already as part of teaching Norsemen how to access Zeal. In which case this information is pretty useless to them since they can do the same thing already for converts. Like, we know that a Norseman can learn to use another culture's internal resource as long as they have not revealed their Fylgja (Sten has done exactly this, for example), so I'm pretty sure them teaching the Norse how to do Zeal cultivation is a real option they already possess. They don't have to fake it with Odr stuff.

It gives them a better model to understand the strength and weaknesses of Norse cultivators.

Does it? The Norse model is pretty much as individualized as possible in terms of actual capabilities. Knowing how the cultivation system works does not help much at figuring out what actual abilities a specific Norseman might have. It seems singularly useless as any kind of combat insight to me. Like, there are useful generalities about the Norse, sure, but nothing Odr does seems like one of them to me. Could you give a specific example of this? Because I'm really not seeing it.

They need not work with the enemy to understand that it limits Norse cultivators growth, they could make traps based on it (like hints to true cultivation that are misleading and make the attempts much deadlier).

I mean, people would need to buy that the Christians have insight into cultivation that they lack for this to work, and then, if it did, the Christians have suddenly murdered all the people likely to convert because they've killed all the ones who are willing to listen to Christians. This isn't impossible, but it's wildly and obviously counterproductive.

The land ownership part?
Has implications on the mobility of Norse cultivators for prolonged conflict (needs to return home to cultivate).
Has implications for backhanded deals (if you have to give land to Norse, try to make sure it isn't valid for true cultivation).

This is all basically irrelevant due to the rarity of Odr cultivators. Using Orthstirr doesn't require your own land, and that's what, like, 99% of the Norse use. Trying to do this sort of thing to catch out the 1% who need it is probably worse than futile.

Both for the uses and the danger of spreading:
Gabriel will be exposed to courtly intrigue again when he returns.

His will and ability to keep it secret will be challenged by the vipersnest that is courtly intrigue.
If he fails, how to use it to harm us will be worked on by the same vipersnest.

This assumes that the 'viper's nest' both believe he has some useful info to give them and can get it out of a Knight sworn to secrecy. Both seem kind of unlikely to be honest. Like, I have no doubt that he'll give them tactical advice on how to fight Norsemen and stuff like that...but the secrets of Odr aren't useful in the same way. Why would he even bring up or reveal he knows them? He's not exactly the chattiest guy around.

They'd need an Odr cultivator.
Something rare.
One Faction knowing that secret has the goal of freeing the Norse (Blackhand, Ironjaw who knows how many more, potentially all Blackhand descendants named Hallr, (we may be the odd one out by not knowing If/how many allies we have in this fight ) ), a goal very at odds with conversion.
A different potential faction being those who embrace the curse of Steel and want to keep Odr a secret, because being stronger than others gives you power over them. Highly unlikely to convert and give up their privileged positions. (If they embrace Steel for its unchangingness, then conversion would be a huge change)

Most people who know about True Odr Cultivation figured it out themselves and are thus not part of any faction at all from their own perspective. You can lump them into these categories, but I doubt most Steelfathers see themselves as on the same side as the other Steelfathers, for example. To draw a comparison to the real world, when the Norse were converted it was very much from the top down, with kings being enticed by trade deals with Christian monarchs if they converted. Being powerful does not make you immune to being enticed with offers of more power...quite the opposite in many ways. I do not think it is unlikely at all that a powerful Odr cultivator will eventually convert to Christianity...I'd say it's inevitable eventually.

We could learn things about his cultivation, true.
We might want to try to steer the discussion to him telling us stuff if that is our goal.
Also, lesser caveat: He may remember that he isn't supposed to share Christian cultivation secrets. (With Jerasmus I'd call it a problem, but with Gabriel its probably just gonna dampen a bit how much we get)

Using Christian cultivation info to figure out Norse cultivation... might work, with the culture is foundation of cultivation I'm much more interested in exploding Halla to more facets of Norse culture and seing how those facets could fit into cultivation, but thats just a personal preference.

I'm not at all against trying to get more information out of him. That seems very much like what we're aiming for here, to be honest. It also wasn't the question asked by the vote, though...that was about what secrets we tell him (or don't, as the case may be).

Possible, interesting to learn.
Not very interesting option to take, imho. But would be good to know.

I wouldn't want it as our primary way to pass along info, but it seems like an interesting backup depending.

If he had the idea (not saying he would), the "but would she ask us for help against God?!" question could be answered easily with "How would she know that herb 'enemy' is Good?".

I'm very dubious he'd assume God is our enemy under the circumstances.
 
Eh.... We are only hinting at the existence of true cultivation, not telling him everything.

Like, we could get away with just telling him we plan to go and join the raids on the jornvikingars now that the other warcamps feel they have a chance.

That is obviously not what we will do, because he is a friend. But we can't even talk about it directly, so him knowing we have a second stage isn't that big a deal.

Especially with the amount of things the knight cultivation has that he can't say.

Hint for hint is a fair trade imo.
 
I mean, to be honest, I don't really see any need to tell Gabriel about true cultivation - the question about non-Norse people disclosing is interesting, but I'd rather not make it our main way of disclosure. The entire thing just feels pretty unnecessary.
 
To be clear, I'm not wildly invested in telling him, I just also don't think it's a problem if we do.

Like, if he decides to go back to Wessex before we do a disclosure we're sure not hunting him down...but if he's around I'd at least like him standing guard outside while we tell people stuff, and if he wants to know about it along with everyone else, I don't think it's that big a deal as long as we get his word to keep it a secret.
 
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