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May The Invisible Hand Be With You - (Star Wars CK2-Style Quest)

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Sometimes I wonder how much different characters actually know about the Abyss. Like the Abyss Watchers are a know mercenary group that I think most people know are connected to Ciaran. But these guys seems to be talking about the Abyss Watchers as the galactic organization that basically controls large parts of the underworld and the CNS.
 
One of the other problems this causes is that we REALLY can't bring the High Council in on the truth until the very last moment. They WILL immediately jump the gun.
 
Slaggedfire said:
Windu bashing... It don't feel good, but I'll endure.
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Wounds in the Force were created whenever a massive loss of life occurred. All life in the galaxy was interconnected and when a significant number of lives were suddenly ended, the Force sustained a localized injury much like a sentient who had lost a limb. The epicenter of the wound became a dark place, filled with the reverberating echoes of the pain, terror, and suffering of the life forms who had lost their lives. Wounds in the Force were most often centered in astrographical locations where traumatic events took place, such as Malachor V or Alderaan, but they could also form within individuals such as Meetra Surik or Darth Nihilus.
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Is it really bashing when a Jedi Council member who deliberately channels his own darker emotions is being forced to spend a significant amount of time near the epicenter? Feeling the pain, terror, suffering and betrayal of people cut down by the closest thing to family they have?

Not just once, not just for a time, but constantly?

And then some more people betray the order!? Maybe it's not a betrayal to us, but to those who stayed behind, to the ones who clung to the order as it was, it'd be abandonment of all they'd fought and died for.

It'd be enough that the constant reminder would lead to harsher and harsher actions and thoughts towards the ones who left.

And the guilt that would exist on some level for that behaviour would provide a feedback loop.
 
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Oh boy... It's something of a perfect storm, isn't it?

The Temple Massacre kicks off this thing, but everyone's already been fearful and tense for a long while so really it's just exacerbating what's already there. Then the Tython group splits off and everyone knows Jedi schisms never go smoothly so yeah ratchet up the tension some more. The debate in the Senate about restrictions for the Order also made things worse, and stops the Jedi from just leaving. Before you know it everything is on fire and most people haven't even noticed, because they can't notice from the inside.

Yoda presumably knows something is wrong but he's been sitting in the middle of it so he has no clue what, and while he works to figure it out the more vulnerable members of the Council get free reign.
Vanguard_D said:
Sometimes I wonder how much different characters actually know about the Abyss. Like the Abyss Watchers are a know mercenary group that I think most people know are connected to Ciaran. But these guys seems to be talking about the Abyss Watchers as the galactic organization that basically controls large parts of the underworld and the CNS.
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They are Jedi spies, they know something is up with Ciaran because the Jedi Council does and it's their job to follow these leads. Even they do not know the full extent of what is up with Ciaran because very few people know exactly how many pies she has a finger in, but actually many people have pieces of the puzzle.
 
Darrenb209 said:
Is it really bashing when a Jedi Council member who deliberately channels his own darker emotions is being forced to spend a significant amount of time near the epicenter? Feeling the pain, terror, suffering and betrayal of people cut down by the closest thing to family they have?

And then some more people betray the order!? Maybe it's not a betrayal to us, but to those who stayed behind, to the ones who clung to the order as it was, it'd be abandonment of all they'd fought and died for.

It'd be enough that the constant reminder would lead to harsher and harsher actions towards the ones who left.
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It's bashing when the first person they think of as an unreasonable person is Windu.

"It's more of a subtle thing, but the signs are there if you know where to look. The Tython Order is a particularly hot topic for one; some Masters have suggested taking 'punitive measures' against them, though so far no one can justify it. So far."

"Okay...who is making those suggestions? I've had to testify in front of the Council before so I know some names. Lemme guess...that sounds like Mace Windu, that Cerean one also seemed like the type..."
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I don't want to get into an argument about this, it's pointless. Windu has been bashed throughout the quest, so don't try to make me think he isn't being bashed here. I like the quest, just some elements of it don't agree with me.
 
Slaggedfire said:
Windu bashing... It don't feel good, but I'll endure.
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Windu has his good points and his bad points. It's just that some of them are the same points.

In terms of combat ability, he can't be matched. Sidious vs RubberBouncingBall!Yoda did not go terribly well for Yoda, whilst Windu managed to take down SIdious effectively solo. (I mean, he had backup but they died so quickly they don't really count.)

Other pluses. Dude is resolute and incorruptible. Windu is not the type to fall to the Dark Side, no matter the circumstances.

He's deep into Jedi Orthodoxy, and for him that's worked very well.

But what looks like incorruptible resolve from one angle looks like zealotry from another angle.

At his best he's a bastion of the Order, at his worst he can't understand why everyone can't just do it all right, like he can.
 
deadcrystal said:
Windu has his good points and his bad points. It's just that some of them are the same points.

In terms of combat ability, he can't be matched. Sidious vs RubberBouncingBall!Yoda did not go terribly well for Yoda, whilst Windu managed to take down SIdious effectively solo. (I mean, he had backup but they died so quickly they don't really count.)

Other pluses. Dude is resolute and incorruptible. Windu is not the type to fall to the Dark Side, no matter the circumstances.

He's deep into Jedi Orthodoxy, and for him that's worked very well.

But what looks like incorruptible resolve from one angle looks like zealotry from another angle.

At his best he's a bastion of the Order, at his worst he can't understand why everyone can't just do it all right, like he can.
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Plus you know he uses Vaapad, which explicitly makes people vulnerable to the Dark Side. I mean sure he handles it but it's fair to say that the fact no one else ever successfully handles it shows that it's dangerous enough that things could ugly even for him if, say, his mental stability got subtly debuffed without him noticing.

Windu isn't the time to fall to the Dark Side, unless it was subtle enough he never noticed anything until it was too late.
 
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Bass11 said:
Are we going have to kick the Jedi out of their own temple for their own good? Cause that sounds kind of fun.
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"I am sorry, Masters, but your lease on the land has run out. I guess you were too busy with the war to renew it. Fortunately, we have a new spot ready for your temple. It's in the middle of the industrial district, true, but think how peaceful it will be without all that hatred and treachery you have to feel from the Senate every day."
 
Dr. Snark said:
Remember the Temple Massacre? And how a lot of Jedi and Dark Jedi alike killed each other in what was basically a mini-civil war?

That many Force users dying in one place and causing that much trauma has...consequences.
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Stroth said:
A combination of the people that died in the bomb with the force users that died fighting, amplified massively by the sheer betrayal fealt by all of the other Jedi and the terror that they're it safe even in their own temple.

Add in the fact that the temple is built on a Force nexus and you have a recipe for some really bad shit.
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Palpatine must never find out about this, ever. He'd turn the Jedi Temple into his own Malachor in order to build an army of Dark Acolytes that would make up a much larger Inquisition.

Darrenb209 said:
Is it really bashing when a Jedi Council member who deliberately channels his own darker emotions is being forced to spend a significant amount of time near the epicenter? Feeling the pain, terror, suffering and betrayal of people cut down by the closest thing to family they have?

And then some more people betray the order!? Maybe it's not a betrayal to us, but to those who stayed behind, to the ones who clung to the order as it was, it'd be abandonment of all they'd fought and died for.

It'd be enough that the constant reminder would lead to harsher and harsher actions and thoughts towards the ones who left.

And the guilt that would exist on some level for that behaviour would provide a feedback loop.
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It's worse, the Temple's supposed to be the Jedi's place of tranquility, their refuge from a galaxy at war that seems to hate them more and more each day. Now it's become a place that generates paranoia and fear of everything outside those walls. In summary it's slowly turning them into the fearful caricature that the anti-Jedi groups portray them as.
 
deadcrystal said:
But what looks like incorruptible resolve from one angle looks like zealotry from another angle.

At his best he's a bastion of the Order, at his worst he can't understand why everyone can't just do it all right, like he can.
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I get that, I just don't like only having his bad qualities on display. Maybe show some good of Windu, but this quest so far has seemingly only focused on his bad side.

He's a zealot and set in his ways, that ain't something I'm arguing against, but he's a Jedi. Jedi are protectors of the peace and diplomats, Windu knows how to be reasonable. At least, when the situation calls for it.
 
Slaggedfire said:
I get that, I just don't like only having his bad qualities on display. Maybe show some good of Windu, but this quest so far has seemingly only focused on his bad side.

He's a zealot and set in his ways, that ain't something I'm arguing against, but he's a Jedi. Jedi are protectors of the peace and diplomats, Windu knows how to be reasonable. At least, when the situation calls for it.
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It's because we never meet him when he's on a mission in this quest. Which is understandable because why would Ciaran ever get between Mace Windu and whatever he wants to do in a Martial context? She likes her body parts attached.

While he certainly can into diplomacy, I imagine he tends to play the strict guy in the context of the Jedi Council, since there's Yoda and others to bounce off of. And again we don't really meet him alone because Ciaran wouldn't unless she had to and 'Mace Windu is in the place we want to go to' has never come up because he's either leading troops or in the temple.
 
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Slaggedfire said:
I get that, I just don't like only having his bad qualities on display. Maybe show some good of Windu, but this quest so far has seemingly only focused on his bad side.

He's a zealot and set in his ways, that ain't something I'm arguing against, but he's a Jedi. Jedi are protectors of the peace and diplomats, Windu knows how to be reasonable. At least, when the situation calls for it.
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Silas is assuming it's Windu and Mundi because from what he knows of them they're a pair stubborn, inflexible arseholes (and hypocritical, in Mundi's case). Keep in mind that, while they're both capable of being reasonable, the character speaking has no reason to think that.

Please do not confuse the opinions of a non-mind reading character with those of the author, no bashing is happening.
 
Assuming that "Traitor" is canon, and Vergere is not lying (which, to be fair, she does an awful lot of telling the truth in lying), it's more of just a nexus of The Force.

Dr. Snark said:
First off, you'll notice a lack of rewards, and no, it's not because I'm trying to screw you over or anything.
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To be fair, you have given enough quest rewards that we are a credible threat to Palpatine when we started from being a mildly sensitive bartender. I doubt that not rewarding us now is going to be that upsetting to people.
 
Vanguard_D said:
Sometimes I wonder how much different characters actually know about the Abyss. Like the Abyss Watchers are a know mercenary group that I think most people know are connected to Ciaran. But these guys seems to be talking about the Abyss Watchers as the galactic organization that basically controls large parts of the underworld and the CNS.
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065tdsa said:
They are Jedi spies, they know something is up with Ciaran because the Jedi Council does and it's their job to follow these leads. Even they do not know the full extent of what is up with Ciaran because very few people know exactly how many pies she has a finger in, but actually many people have pieces of the puzzle.
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While I generally agree with @065tdsa, it would be nice to get an official response from @Dr. Snark.
 
Hells bells - how are we supposed to fix this?

.... actually, wait, no - we don't fix this. Make Obi-wan fix this.

Ciaran: "Oh by the way, your main temple is driving you're dudes crazy. khavefunbaialsostealingyourapprenticeagain!"
 
So what actually caused this Force Wound thingy? Bunch of Jedi dying at once? Is that really all that's needed?
 
We do not want Windu falling, he's the only person in the Galaxy who can wield Vapaad.

But oh lordy this could go very wrong, if they legit try to Coup the Republic that gives Palpatine the go ahead for Order 66 before we're ready.

Then there's issues with Tython, because 'punitive measures' sounds very much like attacking the planet with Younglings, the elderly and wounded veterans of the Jedi.

We may want to station some Agents and Walkers at Tython just to be safe and buy time for reinforcements to arrive, I really don't want to hear about the Coruscant Order slaughtering the Tython Order in its fear and anger at the current situation.

I'm not really sure what to do other than find Yoda and convince him to take as many Jedi as he can away from Coruscant, someone is going to snap, the more Jedi we get away the better I say.

I wonder what the wound is doing to Coruscant? Force Wounds can have quite a large reach.
 
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