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May The Invisible Hand Be With You - (Star Wars CK2-Style Quest)

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HavocKeeper said:
Everyone's still stuck on the Banite Sith being the only one. She's honestly way closer to what they were under Vitiate than anywhere near Bane's breed.

It might be an unpopular opinion around here, but I don't think she's following Kriea's legacy at all and what she's building is just another bastardized flavor of the Sith of yore, except this time it's based on Vectivus' teachings.
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Kriea's teachings were that both the light side and the dark side are incomplete parts of a greater whole, and that it is better to act indirectly, nudging people into taking action themselves rather than directly using your own power. Both of which we follow.

Also that the force needs to be murdered to truely free everyone, but we're gonna go ahead and mostly skip that one.
 
Varder said:
Your arguments are inconsistent.

First you say that the fact that she learned from Vectivus doesn't make her Sith because he wasn't her first teacher. Even if learning from Sith is usually a sign of another Sith.

Then you claim that Vectivus isn't a Sith. Then why did you bother with the first argument?
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No, they are not, I am addressing two different people from two different points. First I said that she couldn't be identified as a Sith because of how she fought or used the force. In response to if she goes all out the Jedi will find out she is a sith. The support was that she learned how to use the force from a not sith source and the sith she learned from didn't teach her force techniques. There isn't a combat technique that screams Sith; I then mentioned buried presence on top of that would hide her aura.

The second post was that from the Jedi perspective she would not be considered a Sith; as the Jedi see the the Sith as a philosophy of two that have the purpose of killing all jedi. I supported this by talking about the Interlude where Vectivus a Sith said that those who saw her force presence would not consider her of the line of bane and the Jedi would not recognize her as Sith but something that would shake the foundation of the world by redefining the dark side.

As for Vectivus being considered a Sith, think of it as (this is a really bad example but I can't think of another someone please step in and save me)

Dark Sider they use the dark side of the force sometimes people from outside confuse it with Sith
Dark Jedi Jedi that fell to the dark side
The line of Bane The official line and the leader of the dark faction they made it so that their could only be one Darth
Darth Sidious the current leader of the line of Bane
Count Dooku the understudy for the position

Lady Ciaran/Darth Traya A member with support from path darth's that is believed to have to talent to kill Sidious and take over the line. This allows her the ability to challenge the ruling line but it's the same as an honorary title from a university. It isn't worth anything until she kills Sidious and takes over the rules of two ​
 
The reason why Kreia liked the Exile was because of the potential to see the force die.

Ciaran on the other hand (via fracture manipulation) can say no to things that the Force wills and allows her to do things out of proportion to her means. Seeing the differences and similarities between Kreia and Ciaran is fascinating.
 
kitsune9 said:
No, they are not, I am addressing two different people from two different points. First I said that she couldn't be identified as a Sith because of how she fought or used the force. In response to if she goes all out the Jedi will find out she is a sith. The support was that she learned how to use the force from a not sith source and the sith she learned from didn't teach her force techniques. There isn't a combat technique that screams Sith; I then mentioned buried presence on top of that would hide her aura.

The second post was that from the Jedi perspective she would not be considered a Sith; as the Jedi see the the Sith as a philosophy of two that have the purpose of killing all jedi. I supported this by talking about the Interlude where Vectivus a Sith said that those who saw her force presence would not consider her of the line of bane and the Jedi would not recognize her as Sith but something that would shake the foundation of the world by redefining the dark side.

As for Vectivus being considered a Sith, think of it as (this is a really bad example but I can't think of another someone please step in and save me)

Dark Sider they use the dark side of the force sometimes people from outside confuse it with Sith
Dark Jedi Jedi that fell to the dark side
The line of Bane The official line and the leader of the dark faction they made it so that their could only be one Darth
Darth Sidious the current leader of the line of Bane
Count Dooku the understudy for the position

Lady Ciaran/Darth Traya A member with support from path darth's that is believed to have to talent to kill Sidious and take over the line. This allows her the ability to challenge the ruling line but it's the same as an honorary title from a university. It isn't worth anything until she kills Sidious and takes over the rules of two ​
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I don't really understand what you mean. She can't be identified as a Sith because she wasn't taught fighting by a Sith? Well, by your logic, she wasn't taught by a Sith at all. Since from your own words Sith are those who want to kill all Jedi. Vectivus never wanted such a thing, so he's not a Sith. Then even if he taught her fighting that wouldn't be a big difference.
 
Uh, just dipping back into the thread;

1)- Seriously, we gotta learn Tutaminis: it is so absurdly useful that it would be the height of stupidity to face palpatine without it, we have a nearby practitioner (Obi-wan) and as a defensive technique we can say we want to learn to deflect blasterfire- at higher levels we could learn to block lightsabers, and with true mastery (though this could likely only be taught by Yoda), mould Sith Lightning- which we should totally learn from Dooku. If not, Plo Koon knows electric judgement, and Kyle katarn was able to develop the ability on his own without falling- maybe we could try that.

2)- If we want more Jedi allies, what about Rahm Kota? He is an accomplished General, with no clones in his militia, estranged from the order (most believe hes and oddball) and also is a fairly advanced lightsaber combatant; he could teach us JUYO! (and as an apprentice of windu, there is a faint chance he knows a little Vaapad ) which would synergise well with shatterpoint. He'd also mesh well with Greivous and Thrawn in terms of personality, being a war vet and all. Just a thought
 
kitsune9 said:
It isn't worth anything until she kills Sidious and takes over the rules of two
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Why in gods name would she ever do that?

Okay, less facetiously: you do realize that the Baneites are only one faction of the Sith right? They're not the only ones. They do happen to currently be the most powerful faction but not everyone follows their philosophy.
 
Supermushu said:
If we want more Jedi allies, what about Rahm Kota? He is an accomplished General, with no clones in his militia, estranged from the order (most believe hes and oddball) and also is a fairly advanced lightsaber combatant; he could teach us JUYO! (and as an apprentice of windu, there is a faint chance he knows a little Vaapad ) which would synergise well with shatterpoint.
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Also of note: Kota was 18 when he started as a Padawan, which might have been related to the whole "estranged from the order" thing.
 
Varder said:
I don't really understand what you mean. She can't be identified as a Sith because she wasn't taught fighting by a Sith? Well, by your logic, she wasn't taught by a Sith at all. Since from your own words Sith are those who want to kill all Jedi. Vectivus never wanted such a thing, so he's not a Sith. Then even if he taught her fighting that wouldn't be a big difference.
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No, I'm saying that the titles Sith and Darth only have meaning to the group that wants to kill all the Jedi. Unless she goes hey losers i'm darth Traya no one will think that she is a Sith.

Stroth said:
Why in gods name would she ever do that?

Okay, less facetiously: you do realize that the Baneites are only one faction of the Sith right? They're not the only ones. They do happen to currently be the most powerful faction but not everyone follows their philosophy.
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No there really aren't; there are the Sith of the Baneite faction and their are all the other sith that don't exist anymore because Bane killed them. Other factions that use the force go by other names like the nightsisters. People can use the name Sith and Darth but Jedi have killed splinter factions openly calling themselves Sith and not considered them Sith because they lacked the tie to the line of Bane. Using the meaningless title Darth means that you are trying to take control of the Banite faction if you don't want to be one discard the title and call yourself anything else.
 
there are other force sects that name themselves sith and have been taught be sith, bane didnt get to kill everysingle one of them.
 
The Sith would call her 'not a real Sith', because they all have big egos and it takes much to get them to acknowledge a rival. The Jedi would not give a damn about sectarian details, they'd just lump her together with the Sith because they don't care that much, she uses the Darkside if not overwhelmingly and has learned things from Sith, it's good enough for them.
 
kitsune9 said:
No, I'm saying that the titles Sith and Darth only have meaning to the group that wants to kill all the Jedi. Unless she goes hey losers i'm darth Traya no one will think that she is a Sith.



No there really aren't; there are the Sith of the Baneite faction and their are all the other sith that don't exist anymore because Bane killed them. Other factions that use the force go by other names like the nightsisters. People can use the name Sith and Darth but Jedi have killed splinter factions openly calling themselves Sith and not considered them Sith because they lacked the tie to the line of Bane. Using the meaningless title Darth means that you are trying to take control of the Banite faction if you don't want to be one discard the title and call yourself anything else.
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The Jedi know Sith existed before Bane, they would certainly not define all Sith by purely Banite indicators. Furthermore Jedi are not so self-absorbed to define their mortal enemies by the simple metric of just being their mortal enemies. The Sith are about Rulership and Domination, both of which Ciran wants and is working towards even if she is doing it in a particularly sneaky way.
 
In the first movie Yoda stated their are always only two and which did we kill the master or the apprentice. They consider sith to be Banite. She would be a darksider but not a sith.


dredloki said:
there are other force sects that name themselves sith and have been taught be sith, bane didnt get to kill everysingle one of them.
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You would have to name them because the only time we saw a sith it was a sith fanboy who grabbed an artifact. A sect that came from a sith but didn't use the name or a sith ghost who's goal was to take over from the Banites.

065tdsa said:
The Sith would call her 'not a real Sith', because they all have big egos and it takes much to get them to acknowledge a rival. The Jedi would not give a damn about sectarian details, they'd just lump her together with the Sith because they don't care that much, she uses the Darkside if not overwhelmingly and has learned things from Sith, it's good enough for them.
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No the Jedi in this story have not considered Sith as sith, because they didn't have the connection and knowledge of the banite sith. Omake A brief history of the Baneite Order "Canon"
 
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kitsune9 said:
In the first movie Yoda stated their are always only two and which did we kill the master or the apprentice. They consider sith to be Banite. She would be a darksider but not a sith.
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Yoda is not the entirety of the Jedi order and one brief phrase about the nature of Sith does not encapsulate everything the Jedi may know or believe about them. For that matter why would the Jedi be incapable of believing he Sith could change their modus operandi when they know that did happen in the past?
 
kitsune9 said:
No there really aren't; there are the Sith of the Baneite faction and their are all the other sith that don't exist anymore because Bane killed them. Other factions that use the force go by other names like the nightsisters. People can use the name Sith and Darth but Jedi have killed splinter factions openly calling themselves Sith and not considered them Sith because they lacked the tie to the line of Bane. Using the meaningless title Darth means that you are trying to take control of the Banite faction if you don't want to be one discard the title and call yourself anything else.
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And when most people talk about Jedi they mean the Coruscant Temple Jedi because that order tries to absorb or dissolve other Jedi orders, but that doesn't make them the only Jedi.
 
Stroth said:
Kriea's teachings were that both the light side and the dark side are incomplete parts of a greater whole, and that it is better to act indirectly, nudging people into taking action themselves rather than directly using your own power. Both of which we follow.

Also that the force needs to be murdered to truely free everyone, but we're gonna go ahead and mostly skip that one.
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I get that, and I can see where you're coming from, but I disagree.

Ciaran is, first and foremost, a businesswoman. It's the basis for all of her goals. She ultimately wants power and influence, which in order to keep you need stability, or at least some from of controlled chaos. Palpatine is a threat to that, so she opposes him. She doesn't have any higher goals involving the force or any great ideologies (as far as I'm aware anyway, I don't follow the thread as closely as I used to). Approaching things from this angle, I believe that while our methods are similar to Kriea, Ciaran fits much closer to Vectivus, who left the overarching Sith goal for his own personal profit.
 
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GENTLEMEN. Please, cease trying to argue with Kitsune aka. A Wall. I'm feeling a rising tension here. Maybe. I'm not sure. Might also just be the DAMN HEATWAVE HERE. Besides, this entire argument made me forget what I actually wanted to say when I entered the thread.
 
My assumption had always been that Ciaran already knows force lightning, she just doesn't use it much because it is an inefficient technique that is more for torture than combat effectiveness.

She never had to learn to use force choke, force jump, etc., So I don't think she should have to spend actions to learn force lightning u less it is an esoteric version like electric judgement.
 
Teron said:
GENTLEMEN. Please, cease trying to argue with Kitsune aka. A Wall. I'm feeling a rising tension here. Maybe. I'm not sure. Might also just be the DAMN HEATWAVE HERE. Besides, this entire argument made me forget what I actually wanted to say when I entered the thread.
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Really I don't feel that I'm a wall,

I can stop arguing as this has gotten a bit far from me finding meta viewers thinking that Dooku was the true mastermind all along hilarious.

Edit: and now I'm bored stopping the argument wasn't supposed to stop the thread does anyone have anything interesting to say maybe.
 
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    Jedi Acts Face Renewed Debate:     After the dramatic turn to the proceedings of the first variant of the so-called "Jedi Acts" the Senate has become embroiled in a new round of debate over any potential new laws. While there is a general agreement that something should be done there has been considerable difficulty in creating laws that the entire Senate can actually agree upon.

    Pride of the Core Launched: In response to the Separatist fleet-killer destroying Republic Navy groups the Republic has launched a Mandator-class dreadnought specifically tasked to hunting down the mysterious weapon. However it remains to be seen if the mighty vessel will even have a chance of fighting against its mysterious nemesis.

    (Note from Gulan: This is much worse news than it sounds like. The cat-and-mouse game these two ships are playing runs the risk of the Malevolence moving through CNS space to try and shake the Pride's pursuit. And since there's no official way to confirm the ship exists or that the transport convoys and patrols it might destroy on the way weren't random pirate attacks...you can see the problem. Normally I'd be confident that Dooku could keep its captain in line, but given what else has been going on, well...)

    Galactic Games Held On Taris:     The Tarisian Galactic Games have proved to be incredibly successful, attracting thousands of spectators from across the galaxy to the reborn ecumenopolis. To the surprise of few the majority of the games were ultimately won by Team Mandalore though they were in close competition with Team Kalee in some of the games.

    Honoghr Devastated By Separatist Bioweapon Tests: Reports have come in from the Outer Rim world of Honoghr that a horrific Separatist bioweapon has been let loose on the planet, causing catastrophic damage to the planet's ecology and risking horrific long-term damage to the planet. This has sparked numerous cries of outrage across both Republic and CNS worlds alike, and movements have already started to provide aid to the devastated planet.

    (Note from Ciaran: HOW ARE THERE STILL MORE BIOWEAPONS DOES PALPATINE HAVE A FETISH FOR THEM OR ARE THE SEPARATISTS STRAIGHT UP ADDICTED TO THEM BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO BE THEIR ANSWER TO EVERYTHING. "CNS MIGHT BE GETTING TOO BIG, BETTER USE A BIOWEAPON, THE REPUBLIC IS INVADING, BETTER USE A BIOWEAPON, WE NEED MORE PUBLIC OUTRAGE SO THEY'LL SUPPORT THE WAR, BETTER USE A DAMMED BIOWEAPON" I HAVE HAD IT WITH THESE DAMMED BIOWEAPONS IN THIS DAMMED GALAXY AAAAAAAAAAAAA)

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    The Kidnapping of Galen Erso: Bounties have begun to circulate throughout various circles for information on the location of the renowned polymath Galen Erso, though it is currently unclear as to who has been sending them out. Whatever the case may be the mysterious employer is said to be willing to pay a high price for the chance to locate the missing scientist.

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    -------------

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    WARNING:
    THE FOLLOWING MESSAGES ARE CLASSIFIED TO THE HIGH COUNCIL



    Lady Ciaran,

    Our people have received word that Admiral Trench has taken a significant fleet with him and gone completely dark, and all of our efforts to track him have so far failed. While under normal circumstances I would expect him to strike at a Republic world recent events have led both myself and Commander Tano to believe that he has been ordered to strike at a Council world given our interference with the Jedi Acts and presumably other actions on your part. Regrettably we can provide no other information aside from that - we will do whatever we can to locate him but I would recommend that you expect the worst. Trench is an incredibly devious being and there is no telling what his plans may be.

    Given recent events you should also be made aware of the captain of the Pride of the Core - Maarisa Zsinj, who has garnered a considerable reputation as an admiral of the Outland Regions Security Forces. I suspect this move was largely political, as she is distant enough from the Tarkins to avoid stigma but close enough to them that any victories on her part will help strengthen them, as they are staunch supporters of Palpatine. She is proud to the point of arrogance, but given her ability it is somewhat justified. More worryingly she is a firm believer in the concept of "shock and awe" and is almost completely unrestrained in her fights. She will do whatever she deems necessary to claim victory.

    -Wullf Yularen

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    Ciaran,

    Your reports on Trench's disappearance are indeed accurate, and much to my dismay I can confirm that they were orders directly from my master that I had no idea were given until his ships vanished. While I cannot determine what his orders actually were, I can confirm that he has enough ships with him to at minimum heavily damage any world he targets. Thankfully with your help I have been able to move far more freely and I am doing what I can to minimize the potential political fallout, but I can only do so much with a disaster of this scale looming on the horizon without betraying our alliance. That being said I can provide you some aid, namely all of the records on Trench's personal and military history that you and Mitth'raw'nurudo can analyze. And as far as I determine, my master's direct interference was solely to ensure that his will was carried out - he still does not seem to be aware of my betrayal as of yet.

    Unfortunately I cannot ensure the loyalty of the Malevolence as it is currently being captained by the Super Tactical Droid "Kalani" and there is virtually nothing I can do at this point to prevent my master from simply overriding his current commands. At the very least though I can send you information on the current location of the Malevolence in case it does unexpectedly change course.

    May the Force be with you,

    -Dooku

    (P.S. Also I can indeed confirm that the disaster on Honoghr was entirely my master's doing as well. Please stop sending me messages expressing your frustration about the overabundance of bioweapons in the galaxy.)

    AN: *insert evil laughter here*

    You want a challenge? Here's your challenge!

    Also on a semi-related note it's really cool that Clone Wars is actually getting finished, but since we're so far off the rails at this point I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT ANY NEW EVENTS IT INTRODUCES! MWAHAHAHAHAHA - okay I'm done now.

    Edit: Also introducing the captain of the Pride! Have fun with that.
     
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    I still see you repli-Snark, do not think we have forgotten!
     
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