TBF, Mags, you have been doing a lot of the heavylifting for the quest, so this will be in good hands.
To be clear to everyone, this is just me burning out on imagination of the quest, since my muse has been hitting me over the head a lot with so many different ideas that I just can't find myself too interested in this.
I'll still hang out here, though, since this still does have a sepcial place in my heart.
I'd like to thank you all for making this a wonderful experience while it lasted.
I'd also like to thank @Magoose, @Fluffy_serpent, and @Martin Noctis for doing so much to help prepare and write this quest. I couldn't have done it without you all.
...Wait what? DC is owned by Columbia, Disney owns the Looney Tunes. And if Disney at any point moves for Columbia I'll be the first to push for a breaking of relations there, and a doubling down in buying Marvel.
The thing is, if we get Cameron, then he won't work on Piranha 2 (Yaaaay!) But then he won't get sick and severely overstressed and overworked (from being fucked by the studios), which in turn will cause him to not have the nightmare that inspired The Terminator (aka one of my favorite movies).
Also, he originally wanted Lance Henriksen as the T-101 (T-800), but was convinced into switching to Arnold after interviewing him for the role of Kyle Reese.
So, what do you guys think of being Batman for more movies going forward? Because i think an adaptation of Reeves "The Batman" with some changes (don't spoonfeed the audience the clues, actually make Batman a competent detective, remove Catwoman, or at least remove the whole "Kill the rich" and "Destroy the city" narrative that just kills anything that relates to Batman) could work. Perhaps adopting a Columbo framework where we, the audience, know who the culprit is (The Riddler= but we want to see how batman figures it out and smokes him out.
Or perhaps have him work with Penguin, or Scarecrow. I don't know, I just think we can do something good using it as a base for a future movie. Then again, we could do a "Hush" adaptation as well, though instead of having his rogues fight him, we could make it so that he has to go through much of his past history, remembering his previous challenges, perhaps hinting at the League of Assassins and Ra's Al Ghul at some point.
Batman 2 could be about Bruce trying to make sure Cobblepot doesn't manage to become what Falcone was, however, in the midst of all this is an 'admirer' an obsessive fan called the Riddler, who also is out to kill Cobblepot. Leading Batman to have to save the Penguin…and face down the Riddler, leaving Cobblepot still a threat at the end of the movie even as the Riddler is sent to jail. A subplot could be Barbara discovering the identity of Batman.
I am working on Batman 2-5 pitches, even got some names down, and I am taking on board peoples objections to the original rough ideas (ie Bruce dying at the end of 5)
Preliminary titles are:
Batman-1979
Batman Returns- Maybe 1981?
Batman Forever
Batman Rises
Batman Legacy
The movie opens with a young teen running from a gang, chased into a subway, there the lights suddenly explode. The leader of the group chasing the teen sees a silhouette, and demands to know who's there. The figure walks past the teenager who tripped, slowly stalking forwards, stepping into the light.
A reply comes: "I'm Vengeance. I'm Batman"
Batman deals with the gang brutally, despite being outnumbered 10 to 1. He turns to the fallen teenager, who is terrified, and instead comforts him, cleaning the dirt off his face and accepting a tearful hug, the teenager admits to stealing cocaine from the gangs hideout, which Batman takes and then gives directions to the nearest Wayne's children shelter, the teen is terrified the gang will follow him, but Batman assures him 'they won't'.
We cut to the gang compound where the drugs are being packaged and prepared to be taken out, the gang leader shouting instructions. Suddenly the light go out, gangster start shooting into the darkness, until a shout rings out. "It's the Bat!"
The rest of the gangsters flee towards the exit, ignoring their leaders orders, as he fires his gun and grows more and more fearful until he turned around…and comes face to face with the Batman.
James Gordon and Sarah Essen turn up later to the scene, finding dozens of gangsters tied up and their warehouse on fire. Gordon sneaks away to the back alleys after noticing a figure, there he meets with Batman and they discuss crime in the city.
Despite the blow to the Falcone family and purge of many corrupt officers, it seems crime has increased, a new figure, calling himself the Penguin has risen up and brought a new wave of crime, meanwhile the Falcones have welcomed back in the Maroni family, marrying Sofia Falcone to Salvatore Maroni. Combining their resources to challenge the GCPD and Batman. Both assure each other however that they are making changes that will better Gotham. Though Gordon stated they have to become more focussed, beating up vassal gangs is meaningless in the end, they need to seek proper Justice.
Later at Wayne Manor however, Sarah Essen confronts Bruce Wayne after a GCPD fundraiser at Wayne Manor. She lambasts Bruce as selfish for dragging Gordon personally into his seemingly fruitless crusade (as she figured out Bruce was Batman in the prior movie). Claiming he is going to get Gordon killed for vengeance for his parents, who may not have been the saints he believed them to be.
However the reveal of the Bat signal cuts their conversation short, as Bruce turns up at a murder scene where Gordon reveals a puzzle box left behind. The victim was a Falcone-Maroni lieutenant. Solving the puzzle box reveals the assumed name of the culprit, The Riddler.
Returning home Bruce questions Alfred on what Essen meant, Alfred instead changed the subject, bringing up the fact that Sarah may be correct, Bruce may be dragging others into his crusade, pointing out the Riddler may have been inspired to attack criminals by Batman, and others may choose the same path.
We cut to Barbara Gordon training martial arts in her room, we see sketches of a 'Batgirl suit' and a detective/murder board where it's clear she's been trying to discover Batmans identity, with some of the suspects being Bruce Wayne, Thomas Elliot and Bruce O'Brian. She hides this from her father as best she can, but she's clearly become enamoured with the idea of Batman and wants to go out as a vigilante and help.
After a night partying to protect his identity Bruce is again called to investigate a murder with a puzzle, again of a Falcone-Maroni officer. The puzzle this time reveals pictures of Harvey Dent's assistant attorney, Gil Colson, cheating on his wife with a woman in a club they realise is the a place owned by Sofia Falcone and Salvatore Maroni.
Meanwhile Barbara Gordon, having followed her father, listens in to his and Batmans conversation with a planted listening device in his jacket.
Batman, as Bruce Wayne, goes to the Club and investigates, he is welcomed warmly by Salvatore Maroni, who brings him to the private suit. There he discovers that Colson was on Carmine Falcone's payroll, and now works for the Maroni-Falcone alliance.
He also finds out Salvatore is his godfather, and that the reason he never managed to visit was due to the Falcones running him out of the city when Bruce was young. Now he has made an alliance with the Falcones via marriage, he wants to 'renew the relationship' between the Maroni's and Wayne's. Horrified, Bruce makes excuses and flees.
At Wayne manor he gets in a confrontation with Alfred. Revealing he just stole the file on his parents the GCPD had, he confronts Alfred with the fact Salvatore Maroni was funding his fathers Mayoral campaign, and that a murdered Journalist was potentially traced back to Thomas and Maroni. He throws Alfred out before he can explain.
Bruce goes to the funeral of the Maroni-Falcone lieutenant that was Riddlers first victim, looking to investigate. He meets Salvatore and Sofia again, and also encounters The Penguin, who's presence causes discontent amongst his rival crime family, nonetheless Penguin attempts to point the blame for the Riddler at Batman, claiming the killer was clearly inspired by the vigilante, causing Bruce to worry about what Alfred said earlier and the Falcone-Maroni alliance to agree with Penguin, and swear to take down the Batman and Riddler.
The funeral is interrupted, as a car crashes through the wall of the church, driven by Gil Colson, with a bomb strapped to his chest. Bruce is the only one daring enough to approach, attempting to solve the riddles locking the vest on to Colson as the other people flee. Bruce manages to solve the puzzle and save Colson, but also notes the lack of fear or panic on Penguins face.
Gordon and Sarah take Colson in for questioning, where he describes the manic behaviour of the Riddler, disturbing Essen, who has to leave as Colson begins to describe the torture inflicted on him. Gordon and Essen have a conversation, where Essen reveals she doesn't believe the city can be saved, and that it's only getting worse, and asks Gordon if he would leave Gotham with her, which he replies no to.
Meanwhile, on a hunch, Batman drives down to confront the Penguin, believing he may be working with the Riddler. On his way he is ambushed by Maroni-Falcone thugs, and has to fight them off in a car chase before arriving at The Iceberg Lounge.
Hearing reports of the fight via the police frequencies she's hacked into, Barbara deduces where Batman is headed, donning a homemade costume she heads down to try and help out her hero.
At the Iceberg Lounge Batman fights his way to Cobblepot, there he begins to threaten the Penguin, but despite his small size and being a cripple, Penguin refuses to break, getting more and more violent, Batman breaks his healthy leg, Barbara, having snuck in the back, hears this and flees, Batman chases her, not realising who she is, she stumbles into a room with a dead body and a Riddler puzzle strapped to it, her scream making Batman realise who he was chasing.
Afterwards Gordon is enraged at Barbara for what she did and Batman for terrifying her. Cobblepot claims no knowledge of how the body got there, and as the Riddler has dumped his victims in odd places before, they can't draw a direct line to Penguin, letting him walk free. However Batman, contemplating wether he inspired the Riddler, and seeing the scared Barbara, questions wether he is doing good, or inspiring people to hurt others or get hurt, Gordon reassures him he is doing good, while Essen grows agitated and leaves.
Essen threatens to leave Gotham without Gordon, but is calmed down and agrees to wait to talk later due to Barbara being traumatised. When they get home Gordon finds and tears down Barbara's investigation board. Essen looks at the last remaining picture on the board, that of Bruce Wayne, and quietly takes it off, Barbara looks at Essen, and deduces from her expression that Batman is Bruce Wayne.
Meanwhile at the Maroni-Falcone club Alfred goes in to confront Salvatore and Sofia, getting in an argument with them, trying to threaten them to stay away from Bruce, however a bomb planted by Riddler under the table goes off, injuring Alfred, while Maroni and Sofia escape.
Rushing to the hospital Bruce admits he feels Alfred was right, he has inspired people in the wrong way and was possibly fighting, not for Justice, but Vengeance. However Alfred reassures him he's fighting for the right reasons, but that he has to be aware what he does will cause harm to people, and cause people to enact harm on others, Batman is a force for good, but Justice comes with a price.
Alfred further reveals that, when Thomas Wayne and Salvatore Maroni were friends, Maroni's criminal background was a secret. The Wayne's and the police only found out when that journalist ended up dead. Thomas offered to turn witness against Maroni before he was killed. Alfred admits he doesn't believe Maroni killed Thomas, and tells Bruce not to pursue Maroni over vengeance, but for Justice.
Sofia Falcone and Salvatore Maroni argue over what's been going on with the Riddler. Sofia notes that it was lieutenants initially loyal to her who have been killed, and the bomb was on her side of the room, and accuses Maroni of trying to kill her and take over the Falcone's, instead of maintaining the partnership, Salvatore manages to calm her down, but then the camera pans to Batman listening from outside.
Sofia is arrested by Essen, who brings her down to the station. Sofia refuses to even talk to Essen, who leaves the interrogation room. From out of a dark corner steps the Batman. During his harsher interrogation he 'accidentally' lets slip the fact they're interrogating her due to Maroni. After he 'fails' to break her, Gordon comes in, and states that he is sorry for her treatment, but they had to make sure she wasn't in on it. He spins an elaborate, and fake story about The Riddler working for Maroni to kill threats to his power. Sofia, with her fears 'confirmed' agrees to have an intermediary (not herself of course) leak evidence of an old murder to the GCPD to get Salvatore arrested, the murder of the journalist all those years ago.
Gordon, Essen and Batman had worked in the elaborate trick together, the truth is they don't know who the Riddler is working for still, or even if he is working alone. Essen however is disturbed by Gordon allowing Batman so much leeway and access, Gordon again delays their fight by claiming they have to arrest Maroni now.
Batman, with the aid of the police, storms Maroni's bar and arrests him. However, as they do so he is shot via sniper rifle by Riddler. Batman gives chase, managing to avoid or survive several booby traps Riddler attempts to use to help his escape, capturing him and arresting him.
At the station Riddler is revealed to be Edward Nigma, the former corrupt coroner fired after Batman took down Carmine. Nigma reveals he blamed Batman, the GCPD and the Falcone's for their the loss of his job, reputation and life. And so attempted to destroy the Falcone family via driving a rift between them and the Maroni that kept them in dominance, and in the process starting a gang war that would've drowned Gotham in blood and crime and ruined everything Gordon and Batman built.
Gordon questions why he's so open to admitting this, only for Nigma to state it doesn't matter. He's had a 'friend' install three bombs across the city, if he isn't released by midnight then the bombs go off and hundreds die. Further, Gordon and Batman HELPED him convince Sofia Falcone that the Maroni's were betraying her. With Salvatore dead, the two crime families will start a war anyway.
Batman manages to figure out via clues given by Nigma during his crime spree where the Bombs are placed. He, Gordon and Essen rush to find and disarm the bombs, only to find each needs to be disarmed by solving a riddle. Gordon solves his by guessing, Batman quickly figured out the answer, Essen has no clue, Batman and Gordon try to rush to her location to save her, but it's clear they won't arrive in time.
Instead, through her radio, the voice of Barbara Gordon gives Essen the answer. It turns out she was listening in to the police frequencies again.
With the final bomb disarmed Riddler is judged and sentenced, Gordon publicly releases his statement early, making Sofia realise she was tricked, and continue her alliance with the Maroni's via her child, Salvatore's child. She swears revenge on the Batman.
Sophia meanwhile packs up and prepared to leave Gotham, she states that the city is becoming too much for her, that what Batman is turning it into, what he's making Gordon into, isn't soemthing she wants to be a part of. She looks at Barbara, and hands her the picture of Bruce Wayne from her murder board, and wishes her good luck. Outside she sees Bruce Wayne, she tells him she respects what he's trying to do, but it's too much for her. Bruce states there's a price for Justice, and he and Gordon are willing to pay it. Essen questions wether he's looking for Justice or vengeance, Bruce confidently stated 'Justice'.
Batman meanwhile goes to Martha Wayne Hospital and confronts Penguin, who now walks in a 'Penguin shuffle' with both legs due to Batman's beating and his original crippled leg. Batman states he knows Cobblepot was funding Nigma's revenge scheme, that he helped plant the bombs, that he was attempting to destabilise the remaining Falcone's so he could sweep in and become the cities great crime lord. Batman has no proof, but he will get it eventually, because "I am the Justice, I am Batman".
In the epilogue Bruce helps Alfred home after the hospital, promising to look after him. He hears a knock and opens the door to see Barbara Gordon, again wearing an ad-hoc vigilante suit, she looks at him and states that 'we need to talk'. She knows he's Batman.
Meanwhile Cobblepot, Sofia, the head of the Triad and Cartel leader all sit around a table, and pledge an alliance to bring down The Batman.
Maybe for Batman Forever you'll have Barbara facing against Killer Moth? Have her comic's claim to fame? ...Or maybe have him as the main enforcer of one of the crime families who serves as the antagonist of Barbara's arc in that movie, where she struggles heavily and needs to be saved by Batman, but in the finale she fights him while after she and Batman have a scene where they work together in the first stage of the climax?
Maybe for Batman Forever you'll have Barbara facing against Killer Moth? Have her comic's claim to fame? ...Or maybe have him as the main enforcer of one of the crime families who serves as the antagonist of Barbara's arc in that movie, where she struggles heavily and needs to be saved by Batman, but in the finale she fights him while after she and Batman have a scene where they work together in the first stage of the climax?
The plan for Batman Forever was to have the crime families end up hiring the Joker (played by Robin Williams) to take out the Batman, with the Joker killing Sofia Falcone and Cobblepot and burning half of Harvey Dent's (who featured in Overmind's Batman pitch, and the Returns pitch briefly) face off.
Barbara would spend the movie trying to convince Bruce to let her help him, eventually suiting up at the end of the movie as Batgirl for the first time.
I could maybe have Drury Walker be Cobblepot's main enforcer who helps Joker kill him and joins his gang at the end? And Barbara has a solo fight with him?
Batman Rises was going to be Two Face and Catwoman with Robin featuring, and Batman Forever was going to be the League of Shadows and Joker Vs the Bat Family.
Also, also, the 1978 Superman movie is still gonna be a thing right? Because I have a few ideas on Superman and Batman…
Well...I mean, it's a bit difficult for me, as while I like the overall idea, it's the little details that have me question it. I mean, in my pitch I put that Sarah Essen suspected Bruce Wayne, and that she was the one who suggested it to Jim Gordon, but not that she was 100% sure or had figured it out. To have her know already and confront him just seems too much for me.
At the same time, Barbara Gordon managing to get one over Batman by bugging him? Or figuring out his identity via Essen? Both do a disservice to the characters in my opinion. Batman should be able to find out if he's being bugged, and Barbara sshould be able to discover his identity on her own (I know she's yet to be made Oracle, but her investigative skills are still there).
Also, perhaps it's my imagination but Batman in this pitch seems like he's unnecesarily brutal. I'm not saying Batman should hold back, but...I guess I imagined more like Nolan's Batman rather then Tim Burton's one. Notice that the previous movie will be balancing Batman between a vigilante who does not kill, and is even willing to save criminals.
The breaking up between Gordon and Essen over their trust of Batman is good, and organic. The Penguin taking advantage and expanding his criminal enterprise is perfect as well. The alliance at the end however feels a bit to tacked on, and while I can understand her want for revenge on Batman, at the same time he's the on who still helped her so it also confuses me a bit.
Overall, I feel it's a good and interesting Pitch, and I hope you don't mind if I take from it for a sequel pitch of my own.
To add in my two cents, I absolutely adore the part where Batman comforts the kid being chased by the gangsters and takes him to a children's shelter run by him. It's a very organic way to show that Bruce Wayne is helping the city even if not as directly as Batman is, and it showcases the compassion and empathy that make Batman as compelling as he can be.
To add in my two cents, I absolutely adore the part where Batman comforts the kid being chased by the gangsters and takes him to a children's shelter run by him. It's a very organic way to show that Bruce Wayne is helping the city even if not as directly as Batman is, and it showcases the compassion and empathy that make Batman as compelling as he can be.
Excellent way of showcasing Batman not only as a specter of vengeance, but also a compassionate one in my opinion. Too many just hear Batman is a vigilante and jsut assume he would be willing to kill, maim , and outright hurt any and all criminals without caring for the collateral damage or the innocent civilians (Looking at you Snyder, you two bit hack!!).
Well...I mean, it's a bit difficult for me, as while I like the overall idea, it's the little details that have me question it. I mean, in my pitch I put that Sarah Essen suspected Bruce Wayne, and that she was the one who suggested it to Jim Gordon, but not that she was 100% sure or had figured it out. To have her know already and confront him just seems too much for me.
At the same time, Barbara Gordon managing to get one over Batman by bugging him? Or figuring out his identity via Essen? Both do a disservice to the characters in my opinion. Batman should be able to find out if he's being bugged, and Barbara sshould be able to discover his identity on her own (I know she's yet to be made Oracle, but her investigative skills are still there).
Also, perhaps it's my imagination but Batman in this pitch seems like he's unnecesarily brutal. I'm not saying Batman should hold back, but...I guess I imagined more like Nolan's Batman rather then Tim Burton's one. Notice that the previous movie will be balancing Batman between a vigilante who does not kill, and is even willing to save criminals.
The breaking up between Gordon and Essen over their trust of Batman is good, and organic. The Penguin taking advantage and expanding his criminal enterprise is perfect as well. The alliance at the end however feels a bit to tacked on, and while I can understand her want for revenge on Batman, at the same time he's the on who still helped her so it also confuses me a bit.
Overall, I feel it's a good and interesting Pitch, and I hope you don't mind if I take from it for a sequel pitch of my own.
I reread the pitch and couldn't decide wether you intended for Essen to have figured out Bruce is Batman or just suspect it. I went with know, but honestly those scenes with Bruce van kinda be edited out or given to Alfred or Maroni? Apologies if I stepped on your toes.
As for Barbara, from my read of your pitch she was a teenaged girl. Planting a bug on her unsuspecting father and listening in to him doesn't feel like a disservice to Gordon or Batman. Gordon just…wouldn't suspect his own daughter to put a listening device on him, and Batman would trust Gordon enough to believe he's secure to talk to. A teenager doing all this (I thought she would be about mid teens?) seems impressive to me, while also not doing Batman or Gordon dirty.
As for Essen basically letting her know? Barbara put Bruce Wayne on her board, Essen just low-key confirmed one of her suspects. I thought it would be a good expansion of the Essen-Barbara relationship, that Essen goes from protecting her in the first movie, to realising she's going to do this dangerous thing and at least making sure she goes in the right direction, in a way recognising, like with Gordon, that this is what they're going to do, and Sarah herself can't stand in their way or stop it from happening, she just has to let them do it.
And Batman being brutal here? Yeah, that was intentional. Bruce in the start of the movie states he is 'vengeance' and that's a theme through the movie, revenge, and the destruction it causes. Over the course of the movie Bruce chooses to be Justice instead. Disregarding the philosophy of Nigma, revenge and destruction at all costs, and doing as Gordon says in their first meeting, looking for Justice instead.
That conflict of Justice v Vengeance, his doubts about his parentage, the feeling that things are actually worse then they were when Carmine Falcone ran Gotham all adds up and pushes Bruce to the limit where he horrifies Barbara and terrifies and chases her by accident. Becoming the opposite of what he is at the start of the film, the protector who comforts and aids the young teenager chased by the gangs, at the end of the movie as he helps Alfred, and meets Barbara face to face, he doesn't frighten her and he's again a caring protective figure, having come through that period of self doubt and rage and come out of it a good man in contrast to Riddler.
As for Sofia Falcone wanting revenge and the alliance? Sofia doesn't know Cobblepot was the one helping Riddler, only Batman/Bruce does. What she does know is Batman tricked her into handing over Salvatore, leading to the death of her husband and the father of her child, while theirs was a political marriage, it was still a marriage, which meant something.
If tim Burton is still in school I 100% want to snatch him up right as he graduates. There aren't enough of that wonderful creepiness out in the world and far too few films.
I'd love to see what he does with our animation group. Claymation, like puppetry (speaking of which a certain puppeteer involved with the Labyrinth movie needs to be earmarked for recruitment), is an art form there needs to be more of and put into more prominence due to the storytelling potential it gives.
I could maybe have Drury Walker be Cobblepot's main enforcer who helps Joker kill him and joins his gang at the end? And Barbara has a solo fight with him?
This might just be me, but I prefer the Killer Moth who isn't just another criminal. I like him when he's more of the somewhat bumbling criminal and father. Having him team up with the Joker to help kill Penguin just feels wrong to me.
This might just be me, but I prefer the Killer Moth who isn't just another criminal. I like him when he's more of the somewhat bumbling criminal and father. Having him team up with the Joker to help kill Penguin just feels wrong to me.
I reread the pitch and couldn't decide wether you intended for Essen to have figured out Bruce is Batman or just suspect it. I went with know, but honestly those scenes with Bruce van kinda be edited out or given to Alfred or Maroni? Apologies if I stepped on your toes.
As for Barbara, from my read of your pitch she was a teenaged girl. Planting a bug on her unsuspecting father and listening in to him doesn't feel like a disservice to Gordon or Batman. Gordon just…wouldn't suspect his own daughter to put a listening device on him, and Batman would trust Gordon enough to believe he's secure to talk to. A teenager doing all this (I thought she would be about mid teens?) seems impressive to me, while also not doing Batman or Gordon dirty.
As for Essen basically letting her know? Barbara put Bruce Wayne on her board, Essen just low-key confirmed one of her suspects. I thought it would be a good expansion of the Essen-Barbara relationship, that Essen goes from protecting her in the first movie, to realising she's going to do this dangerous thing and at least making sure she goes in the right direction, in a way recognising, like with Gordon, that this is what they're going to do, and Sarah herself can't stand in their way or stop it from happening, she just has to let them do it.
And Batman being brutal here? Yeah, that was intentional. Bruce in the start of the movie states he is 'vengeance' and that's a theme through the movie, revenge, and the destruction it causes. Over the course of the movie Bruce chooses to be Justice instead. Disregarding the philosophy of Nigma, revenge and destruction at all costs, and doing as Gordon says in their first meeting, looking for Justice instead.
That conflict of Justice v Vengeance, his doubts about his parentage, the feeling that things are actually worse then they were when Carmine Falcone ran Gotham all adds up and pushes Bruce to the limit where he horrifies Barbara and terrifies and chases her by accident. Becoming the opposite of what he is at the start of the film, the protector who comforts and aids the young teenager chased by the gangs, at the end of the movie as he helps Alfred, and meets Barbara face to face, he doesn't frighten her and he's again a caring protective figure, having come through that period of self doubt and rage and come out of it a good man in contrast to Riddler.
As for Sofia Falcone wanting revenge and the alliance? Sofia doesn't know Cobblepot was the one helping Riddler, only Batman/Bruce does. What she does know is Batman tricked her into handing over Salvatore, leading to the death of her husband and the father of her child, while theirs was a political marriage, it was still a marriage, which meant something.
As I've said, it's a good pitch overall, but it's the small details that just seem to rub me wrong. All in all, aside from the Essen parts (and perhaps the brutality and Barbara revealing herself at the end) it all works out. Thank you for explaining it to me better.
-[X]Being Called Out: You looked at the TV screen and looked at the Heavyweight Champion look at you. Ali wanted your Head and said you were nothing but a nobody. DC: 0 (You must line tail a response below this vote)
--[X] Give a counter statement to Ali defending your athletic career and your accomplishments. Emphasize how you faced the toughest boxers in America and the world, went the distance with Bob Foster and Sixto Soria and that to say you were nothing was to say that all of your opponents were nothing. If Ali wants a fight, then we'll have a fight in LA. Rolled:D100 => 100
Reaction:D100 => 1 (Ali you should not have done that.)
The Reaction was honestly… something you really did not wish to hear.
"I think the man is utterly incapable of winning, all he does is emphasize his failures against the old Foster while saying his victory over a boxer from Cuba is his great accomplishment. I have gold as well, and I threw it away because I did not want to be a symbol for the racist man that is in Washington who still lords over my brothers and sisters. Bruce O'Brian is the Man using him, finally striking back to strike down at all brothers and sisters who have won! This man, this Irish bum is the White Man's desperate attempt to shut us all down again, to put us all in our place again when we have finally become free to know our own strength and courage. And I will never let them shut me down again. I accept your challenge Goose, and I will go out on top of the world, where you can only win in your movies, like the bum Stallone."
It was staged, and you could see his eyes read from a script, it was someone else's words, not his own, but it didn't matter. He was making you into something you were not. Making you angry.
And above all else, disrespecting your friends.
Reward: In two turns, there will be A match for the Heavyweight title. Prepare for the fight of your life.
How do you drum up interest in a fight? That question was going around Bullpens of newspapers and fight promoters' offices.
Man is not a logical creature. Numbers and probability rarely mean anything in the face of hope. Why else do stories of David versus Goliath fights, thrilling risks, and million-to-one chances resonate through the ages? Man wants to believe that someone can beat the odds, that Good triumphs over Evil, that the fish was that big. Man wants to believe, wants to hear the Story again and wants to have seen it happen with their own eyes. If the Story is told right, you can make Man think history is about to be crafted, and he can come and see it happen for a price. The Story doesn't have to be realistic, but it must be told well. Facts and odds don't matter to Man, not really. What matters is the Story.
Logically, a Movie Star, even one that has Won a Gold medal in the Olympics, versus a Professional boxer, the recently dethroned Heavyweight Champion of the World, should not even be a contest. Statistically, the heavyweight should win, case closed, and continue with your life. Without an emotional connection, why wouldn't you just wait for the results in the sports section, read it over breakfast and go on with your day?
For a fight promoter, having the public read the results in the paper and leave it by their breakfast as they went to work represented an unacceptable lack of interest. Expected outcomes do not get seats sold, do not make for expensive broadcast rights and certainly do not fill prize purses for cash-strapped Boxers. So, how do you sell the fight? Give the public a story; boy, this was shaping up to be a good one.
The usual Story for any of Ali's fights was one of defiance against the Man, of fighting a White Oppressor or a witless colluder in the ongoing race war. Except this time, Ali had misstepped, and Bruce O'Brian had almost perfectly countered, potentially casting Ali as the villain for significant parts of the American Populace. It wasn't the planned Story, but it was compelling nonetheless and, more importantly, one that would sell.
How the Story came to be, that of a young honorable underdog standing up for his previous foes versus an out-of-touch and possibly traitorous has been clinging to power by any means possible, needs some explanation.
Bruce O'Brian is a good choice on paper for a confidant Reigning Heavyweight Champion Muhammad Ali to fight. Bruce is a famous enough boxer even if he is primarily known as an actor, and, more importantly, he is White and therefore is an acceptable target. It should be an easy fight. Bruce is probably out of shape or practice as he has been focusing on his movie career. The most recent is Based on Conan, a story about some tough guy barbarian. Bruce's last few movies have sold millions and made him famous. If Ali can become known as the Man who beat up Conan just before the movie releases, every time the movie is shown, Ali will receive a little bit of the glory. Bruce is known to have a temper, so he should be an easy mark. So Ali makes a few claims on TV before Christmas 1977, sticking to his usual "this person is a Black oppressor" script.
If Bruce Accepts, it will be one of several similar matches Ali has set up to keep himself in the public eye. If Bruce refuses or ignores Ali, he can use the refusal to claim Bruce is a coward and afraid of Ali. While that will not divert as much attention to Ali as a fight before a blockbuster movie release, it is also far less effort on Ali's Part. Either way, it will be either an easy opponent to fight or a talking point, both good for keeping Ali in the public's awareness and the money coming in. If Ali has been influenced by the boxing community's jealousy at Bruce's success and ability to draw a crowd, then that is carefully not stated. Then, things start to go wrong for Ali. The fight with Leonard Sprinks in February 1978 goes poorly.
Mohamad Ali had just lost his belt to Leonard Sprinks in an underwhelming Match by a split decision from the Judges. It is not a good look. Ali has badly underprepared and underperformed, resulting in a massive hit to his Pride and, more importantly, his Image and its marketing potential. He needs to get back into shape and quickly. Retiring now, no matter how much his body hints that it might be a good idea, is unthinkable. Look at what happened to Sonny Liston and how he went from heavyweight champion to a nobody. Ali can't let it end like this, or he will be forgotten too. Besides, Ali still has bills to pay. Ali needs more matches fast and to win his belt back soon. He needs someone, preferably multiple someones he can bash on and be seen as a hero. He needs easy fights to get back into shape and to face Sprinks or whoever beats Sprinks to reclaim his belt. Then, with a metaphorical record scratch Ali's plans are derailed. Bruce O'Brian steps onto the scene and accepts the Heavyweight Champions Challenge.
Technically, this is a success for Ali, as the King of Trash talk has managed to make a successful actor, studio head and new father furious enough to accept the fight Ali has been asking for since Christmas. In theory, Bruce could still be a good opponent, but the high profile nature of the battle only highlights the loss of the belt as Bruce and, by extension, the media is expecting a fight against the heavyweight champion. Someting Ali is no longer. Preparing properly for the fight against Bruce will also cost time and effort that could be spent getting his belt back and not on this sideshow. A loss here to Bruce could be disastrous, could confirm that Ali doesn't have what it takes anymore, and that would severely affect his future fights, potentially even making it so he is never offered another chance at his belt. Not to mention what a loss would do to his Image and, therefore, sponsorship potential. Ali saw what happened to Sonny Liston after he beat him and how fast he became a nobody. Ali doesn't want that to be his Story either.
Ali's dark thoughts are not shared by everybody. As far as the Media is concerned, Bruce is a perfect Opponent for Ali. Most journalists sense a credible and, more importantly, a Saleable story can be crafted. The public is interested in the reclusive Hollywood A-Lister enough to buy seats for fights or newspapers with stories about him. He has sufficient history to be built up into a credible threat to Ali.
Bruce, like Ali, has an Olympic Gold medal for boxing, if not the heavyweight one. He is a famous Boxer after he did a miniseries for the American Olympic team before Defeating the Soviet champ in a match reminiscent of Ali's fight against Sonny Liston, just without the Phantom punch controversy. As added symmetry, Bruce is only slightly older than Ali when he performed that feat. There had been many a schoolyard debate since reignited whenever Bruce O'Brian Jumped back into the public consciousness about who could beat up who. Hot off some of the most popular movies of the year, having fought Hollywood and won and having a recent baby, those discussions and occasional scuffle in the yard had been far more commonplace of late. Bruce is famous and seemingly capable. This fight draws crowds hoping to have that question answered once and for all, the ultimate question in boxing fight promoters hope. Or at least the ultimate until Ali can beat Bruce, and the focus can be shifted to Leonard Sprinks and the rematch of the century.
While the actual Match is still to come, the pre-match in the media is just beginning. Individually Driven by a need to sell newspapers, magazines and eventually seats at the ringside, Journalists and fight promoters go over all the available data and watch the fighters like hawks. They need the public to be interested, and for that, they need to craft a story.
Unlike a match in the ring, the fighters are not physically injured in this pre-match contest of Story and reputation. Still, the consequences are just as potentially life-changing as severe injuries within the ring. Neither fighter fully controls their side of the fight as their actions and statements are viewed and reinterpreted through the media lens and the most salable Story that can be created now. That is not to say the Media is all-powerful. The fighters can encourage the Story's development in specific directions by offering exclusive access and interviews and threatening lawsuits and libel if a story direction is not to their liking. But most of all, they can direct the Story by their actions.
In a sense, the fight started when the fighters first entered public awareness, and it is only now the media are trying to turn it into a story that it is possible to score how the fight is going.
In image and reputation terms, Bruce has come out swinging against Ali's formidable reputation as a truth speaker and a champion for justice. Instead of a furious response insulting Ali back or belittling him, the actor with a known temper delivers a measured and thoughtful response focusing on the disrespect Ali is showing to Bruce's past opponents rather than focusing on Bruce's own achievements or the falsities Ali has stated about Bruce himself. The Match is on, but Ali's Image takes severe body blows.
Despite the fight being what Ali has been agitating about for Months, The battle against Bruce is now a sideshow to Ali's real focus, regaining his belt from Sprinks, and it shows in his actions. He does not have the energy or focus to tailor the response to Bruce O'Brian and delivers a Generic and somewhat tone-deaf "You are an oppressor" response to Bruce's acceptance. Why shouldn't he, This is just an exhibition match, and Ali is busy with other things. Like setting up to practice against new opponents both here in the states and…
In Russia, the great enemy of the Cold War.
Ali has just walked into that hit to his Image. Another fumble and an ever-aware media despite for the next Story, not the following fact, is on hand to mark his loss.
Bruce O'Brian's counter hits far more effectively than Ali's attack. The Story Bruce's media supporters start pushing is that Ali has gone too far disrespecting Past boxing opponents, and someone, anyone needs to call him to account. If no Boxer can or will Hollywood A-lister, Movie star Bruce O'Brian will take time out from running a movie studio, being a new father and making some of the most beloved films of the last few years to do so. He also reminds the public of his American hero image via reruns of his Olympic miniseries resurrected due to the interest in the upcoming fight. The documentary highlights his past USA Olympic gold, a sharp contrast to Ali's Soviet Adventure. Ali's Image takes another body blow.
Under Ali's lack of leadership, Ali's media camp ignores this warning. It continues along its usual narrative strategy, the tried and true tactics of accusing any and all of Ali's opponents of being white oppressors of the black Man, of Ali being right to doge the draft, and standing up to the Man. The blows designed to cast O'Brian as the Villain are blocked. In the past, Ali had more of the media spotlight to overshadow his opponents, usually by banking on his Image as an honest speaker created by his past efforts to fight the draft. This had worked well against most opponents, even "Smokin' Joe" Frazier, whose lived experience was far more typical of the Black community of the era rather than the relatively more privileged and luckier Ali.
Not only is Bruce's Image too big and solid for the blow to do much, but Bruce's camp has the perfect counter already. Unlike many of Ali's previous opponents, Bruce O'Brian is not being introduced to the public by Ali but challenging him as one already as famous. Bruce has Led the USA Olympic team to Glory in Boxing by defeating all opponents and has made a fantastic Documentary series sharing the glory. The next counter is his charity work, first by helping the veterans involuntarily sent to Vietnam and then forgotten because the war was not a glorious victory. Bruce then followed it up by rescuing the displaced Vietnamese. His effort turns the narrative from a War Lost and a people enslaved to a Land Lost and a people saved. Bruce is Credited with snatching victory from the jaws of defeat and restoring a great deal of national Pride. He had taken the other end of Ali's implicit "America should not have gone to war, and everything that went wrong is because you did" argument with "Well, we did go to war. Live with it and Help me win the Peace". An implicit message of possibility rather than blame. Ali's tactic of being a Draft dodger and proud of it has its answer. Bruce has decisively won this round. Ali's Image is battered further.
The next round is initiated when the Media begins to consider the fighters most recent actions, as Ali is now actually on the plane to Moscow, not just saying he wants to go. Many do not see Ali as a credible diplomat to most. It is easily reframed as him seeking Soviet assistance to regain his belt through dark boxing tricks or mysterious Soviet super science. These are not the actions of a man America can easily get behind. In reply, Bruce delivers a one-two hit that stuns the public. Bruce Appears in probably the best episodes of the best season of Wonder Woman and Becomes Ares, the God of War. He then follows it up with A Visit to Mr Rogers Neighborhood and talks about being a better person with the help of your friends. Both land masterfully. Bruce is a physical threat and again highlights his grievance with Ali's disrespect. The media, as judges, declare that round for Bruce O'Brian as well.
The fight for reputation is not over, but the bell has rung, and both camps are back in their corners, contemplating their next moves. The Story being crafted is not going well for Ali; even winning the physical Match may leave Ali's Image crippled. While Ali is used to being booed by a crowd, it makes a fight harder.
Analysists circle and without actions from Ali or Bruce, they speculate on possible future moves the men might make. Bruce has more offensive options left and is in an excellent position, media-wise. He has a blank check from the public to do anything to any media that displeases him. The recent home invasion by a paparazzi member and the subsequent court case against the paper has dominated paper rivals' headlines. Likewise, Bruce's current threat of legal action has many papers back off and wait for official statements from the Man himself rather than engage in baseless speculation. In the back of the minds of the more strategically minded paper is that Bruce is young and unlikely to disappear from the public eye if he loses the upcoming Match. Annoying him too much now might result in a source of valuable stories choosing their competitors out of spite for decades to come. The unofficial consensus is that Bruce's actions should be reported in the best light possible.
Ali has far less to offer the media. He is old for a boxer and, while making headlines, seems to be losing his touch. How much longer will he last? And how much will be lost if they publish a story that offends him now? While it is never official policy, the current media consensus is that Ali is the bad guy going into the fight. It is finally okay to publish all those stories that criticize and question. While not a has-been yet, he will be soon, one way or another. Better a big payday now than a future payday that may not arrive.
It will take incredible missteps by Bruce O'Brian and perfect moves by Muhammad Ali to change the Story now it is mostly hammered into shape. The tale of this bout is one of good and evil, of a young David seeing and responding to the taunts of an arrogant and lazy Goliath, that Incredible risks are being taken for justice to prevail and truth to be revealed to the world . Win or lose, history is about to be made.
Judgment Day LA . Bruce O'Brian versus Muhammad Ali. Don't you want to see this happen ? Do you want to see with your eyes if the fish really is that big? Well, for just a few dollars, you can sit at the ringside where you might just see the impossible with your own eyes.
Thanks. Judgment day La hit me while I was writing this as something that would fit in with other boxing titles of the era. That said there is still time both in story and out to come up with a better name. Poozer Punchup?
That said there is one more round of prep and then the fight. I am somewhat expecting Ali to still win . However Bruce having the 100 roll and Ali having the nat 1 has to have done some damage to his image. The above post was my reasoning of how that happened.
I have another omake idea that might give Bruce a further push but I will have to see if I can get it together in time
Spoiler below for the key points if anyone is interested.
Key points
Bruce Lee Studied Ali's footwork and potentially developed his one inch punch from the Anchor punch that Ali said he leared from Stepin Fetchit, who learned it from Jack Johnson.
The Acupunch that Ali used to defeat Richard Dunn was taught to him by Taekwondo Grandmaster Jhoon Rhee. Ree learned it from Bruce lee.
Ree was Ali's coach for two fingts and is not at present. (1978)
Bruce actions and open acknowledgment of Bruce Lee as his sensei probably means the Asian community is on his side.
Adhoc vote count started by Whenyouseeyou on Aug 21, 2023 at 8:23 PM, finished with 79 posts and 15 votes.
[X] Plan AutoGoose
-[X] I Love you. I Know: You and Carrie finally understand each other in a way that few people ever really can. (All Carrie Actions Autopass.)
-[x]Preparing for the Fights: You have planned three different fight scenes, a beginning, a middle, and final battle. You think it would be best to get everyone involved. DC: 30
-[x]The Rest of the Cast: So Colombia has brought in… Who? Like seriously, who, they won't tell you anything. DC:45
-[x]Finding Producers: Mike wants to bring more talent into the Company to work on more films of a lower budget variety than the blockbuster films that you all are producing. Mostly young talent, so he's asking you to scour Hollywood for the ideas. DC: ??? -[x]Finding Directors: You should not have opened your mouth, but now you have been asked to look for directors to hire. DC: ???
-[X]Distributing Deals: Since you have a Distribution Company, or rather, are one… You can meet the major movie theater companies and strike a Deal with them. Even when you had really nothing to offer them. DC: ???
--[X] Godzilla vs Mechagodzilla. Dodes'ka-den.
-[X]The Second Rocky: So Sly is making another Rocky with Alan Ladd as producer. And he wants you to join in for one day just to serve as a training camp. Also give him and you some free publicity. Something tells you there is more than just film on his mind. DC: 40
-[X]Every Breath You Take: You and Debbie finally sat down and talked. "Debbie, I have a question? Are you jealous of me and Carrie?" DC: 20
-[X]Carrie's Night Out: Carrie sauntered towards you with a very beautiful dress. "You know Bruce, we've had so few days without Mary, lets leave her at my moms and we'll have a good time." DC: 0 -[x]A Talk with an Old Man who loves westerns: Clint was waiting for you with a beer in hand. "Lets talk kid." DC: 30
-[X]Family Time: You enjoy every minute of this… "Mary, you need to eat your Broccoli so you can be big like your daddy!" She was not enjoying it. DC: 30
[X]Plan: A good balance
-[x]Preparing for the Fights: You have planned three different fight scenes, a beginning, a middle, and final battle. You think it would be best to get everyone involved. DC: 30
-[x]The Rest of the Cast: So Colombia has brought in… Who? Like seriously, who, they won't tell you anything. DC:45
-[x]Finding Producers: Mike wants to bring more talent into the Company to work on more films of a lower budget variety than the blockbuster films that you all are producing. Mostly young talent, so he's asking you to scour Hollywood for the ideas. DC: ??? -[x]Finding Directors: You should not have opened your mouth, but now you have been asked to look for directors to hire. DC: ??? -[x]Importing Foreign Films: So… you may have a way to get some films showing in American Theaters. Maybe you can go to other foreign film industries and… well, ask to distribute their films. Sure many of those foreign film companies never expected an American company to distribute their films in the US… but maybe you can get money without producing them. (Linetail where you try to get films from, and if there are any specific films, line tail them below) DC: ??? --[x]House (1977): Holy shit, Kung-Fu Horror Comedies are great! -[x]A Talk with an Old Man who loves westerns: Clint was waiting for you with a beer in hand. "Lets talk kid." DC: 30 -[x]Your Rival: Arnold Schwarzenegger. You have no idea who this guy is… also, why does he want to rival you. Also, what the fuck is he doing, going around saying you are the only reason that things got so weird? Whatever that means. DC: 30 -[x]The O'Riely Foundation Lobbying: You want California to help the men who have given nearly everything and more to this country. DC: ??? (Linetail how much money you want to throw at it, and what you want from the State) --[x] 10 Million -[x]Workout: A Healthy Mind and a Healthy Body are Key to having a good life, and you have been slacking as of late. Time to hit the workout and discipline, and perhaps, see things differently. DC: 30 Reward: You work out and feel better. -[x]Calling You're Parents: You are going to call your parents and see what they want. DC: 10
[x]Carrie is getting Back into the Game: Carrie hasn't acted in several years, but now she's back and wants to be better than ever. (Acting with Carrie now carry's a +100 to SP and Chemistry with you, and +50 with everyone else)
