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Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

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George said:
Could you cite that please?
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Everything on other people's sheets displays relative to us, including cultivation bonuses/penalties. That much is clear. What is less clear is what exactly the stats on our sheet are displaying relative to, and I'm guessing it's relative to our realm in general, though even that is a bit of a weird notion (why should it be relative to our whole realm and not our CL, for example)
 
I'm not sure, but I think how it works can be explained fairly simply, though this is illustrative, not intended to use the actual values:

Average Red Cultivator: 1 dot
Average Yellow Cultivator: 2 dot
Average Green Cultivator: 3 dot
Average Cyan Cultivator 4 dot
Average Indigo Cultivator: 5 dot
Average Violet Cultivator: 6 dot
Average Prism Cultivator: 7 dot
Average White Cultivator: 10 dot

anyway, C rank would be an average cultivator at LQ's current cultivation level. Changing realm doesn't change the underlying stat- either them changing, or us changing. however, if there is a difference in cultivation level, then the weaker party gets a 1-rank penalty. That penalty will change on other people ranking up. When LQ breaks through to a new Realm, it's simply that the average cultivator had a higher underlying stat.
 
The more I think about it the more this whole display system seems on kind of shaky ground. Everything is relative to LQ's reference frame, but LQ's reference frame is actually kind of ill-defined. It's not relative to how stats appear to someone in Green 1, since LQ won't have the +10 CL bonuses applied to her sheet. It isn't really relative to LQ's CL either though, since presumably the average expected stat would get higher with level: A Dex for a Green 1 (if you consider "A" to mean like, the top 20% of Cultivators for that stat), statistically, is going to be less than A Dex for a Green 5, even before CL differences are applied.

It's like, LQ's statistics are being measured on an absolute scale calibrated to Green as a whole, but continuously adjusted to match whatever her own specific CL is, which is sort of a weirder and weirder concept the more you keep thinking about it.

EDIT: Like, to expand on this, isn't it kind of strange that when we improve by training our Dex, we see our Dex go up, but when we improve by leveling our physical CL, we see everyone else's physical stats go down instead? Both things are improvements by Ling Qi, but we see one of them on Ling Qi's sheet and the other on everyone else's sheet. Like, we aren't watching in Ling Qi's reference frame, OR in an absolute reference frame, it's a weird amalgamation of both.
 
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The scale really ought to be fixed for either Green as a whole or an Appraisal Green baseline since that's what the upcoming quest will mostly revolve around for a significant chunk of real time. That and there should be sensible and well documented rules for how stats change when one ranks up a stage or a Realm, and how contests are resolved between cultivators on different stages and realms.

At least that's the sane thing to do. If @yrsillar wants to stick to a LQ-relative moving scale that adjusts everyone else's statsheet based on her cultivation progress... well. To make it work it should be acknowledged that others have a "base" statsheet relative to their own level, one which then (from what I understand) gets assorted bonuses and debuffs added, then cultivation gap adjustments and rank-down/ups made to get a final LQ-relative statsheet. One that will have to be updated at least as often as we rise in stages, and potentially as often as buffs and debuffs are applied (since cultivation adjustments happen last, and I can see buffs significantly shifting the base rank).

Whatever @yrsillar goes with it, documentation is really important as are testing and sanity checks (which can happen naturally if said documentation is provided).
 
I dunno, if I just fix the scale to green, how many other things is that going to break? Given the timescales real and in quest involved, I will be genuinely surprised if this lasts all the way to Ling Qi's cyan ascension. I guess I can tack on a bonus to your stats instead somewhere if that reads better to people?

Bluntly, the whole system only really exists to give numerical representation to your growth and make it easy for me to provide some simplified statblocks at the beginnings of combats to address the complaints about people not knowing the relative strengths of enemies. I have never intended to track npc statistics on a constant basis, so I never really considered the trouble in other characters going up and down ranks over time, since I would just make a revision of the statblock the next time they were involved in a relevant combat or contest to take into account their growth.

So anyway yeah you're probably right, even if I don't quite understand the problem, enough people have said it that it's clearly an issue on my end.
 
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NotAlwaysFanfic said:
No chocolate? NOOOOO!

We must correct this grave injustice upon the Empire, and find the legendary plant that gives life and meaning to all!
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On the other hand, Thousand Lakes is basically SEA, so you got curry and basically every damned spice in the world. And lotsa tropical fruits.

I think the jungle probably has durian dryads...
Black Noise said:
If stats don't get weaker as one increases in realm then low resolution at the low end isn't the only problem. This basically becomes a "relative to 3d realm" scale, and it should be describing the entirety of 3d realm, something that even a rising talent like Ling Qi can only cross in a matter of 4-5 years.

With S as the "natural" cap (and does this mean S0 or S59?), Early and Appraisal Green cultivators with A rank abilities don't make sense, let alone S. Even B and C seem like a stretch since they're supposedly "above/average foot a cultivator of this realm". This gets even more ridiculous with Yellow cultivators that have A-rank abilities as is their natural cap, with the implication that they fully retain it as they go up in realm.

Basically a system like that leaves us with poor resolution below the C level and very little room to meaningfully grow in the upcoming 4-5 years, growth that some like the monsters seem to have already completed.
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Actually it looks like the intended growth path is that you got the following breakdowns(higher rank signifies where you're expected to be at end of stage, lower where you'd be at early stage):
-Primary skill: Raise to A-B rank, then split the skill into further specialized subskills(which means you gain a functional rankup vs competitors, . You generally never see someone train to S rank unless they've been stuck unable to breakthrough for a long while or if that specific mastery is critical to their Way, its always more efficient to find an even more specialized application. This is where our Expression->Music/Dance goes.

-Secondary skills: Raise to B-C rank, specialize into your focus area. This is enough to let you contest most fights with peers except in their primary skill. Theres enough leeway for strategy to win the day. This is where Formations, Occult, Stealth, etc sits for Ling Qi.

-Tertiary skills: Raise to C-D rank, specialize into the aspect you're actually using because you aren't actually interested in the full skill. This lets you do what you're expected to be competent at in your Realm(i.e. this is where Bureaucracy, First Aid, Survival, Archery, Unarmed, Noble Weapon will eventually be sitting). Ling Qi is probably not interested in Medicine, she just wants First Aid and Identifying Drugs to be enough to get to a real medic.

This is because specializations train faster, so if you're pushing Functional S rank you're better off taking two forks of an A rank specialized skill for 300+200+200 time units than S rank unspecialized skill for 900 time units.
 
Yeah, considering the whole point is "This is so that when you get a rundown of someone's abilities at a given moment, it's how it stacks up to you"

People are just ruining it by reading more crunch into it as intended by trying to find interactions where it breaks, like this is intented to be a hardcore RP system rather than a narrative set of guidelines like how the big narrative games do the whole "Adept/Skilled/Veteran/Master" thing.
 
There is no problem. People are just confused by the descriptions of the scale.

It functions fine for its purpose.

I would explicitly show cultivation penalties/bonuses because it's clearer though.
 
All I'm unclear on is whether gaining a realm increases your abilities by the same amount as gaining a regular stage or more than that.
 
I think the main, pressing issues are:

1) Having scales be relative in two ways at once is confusing. I wouldn't factor CL and CR autos into character sheets, since that way at least they won't seem to change in appearance every time we gain a level. (This is honestly going to make for less confusing paperwork too, since character sheets don't have to be re-updated every time LQ levels)

2) Order of operations with respect to realm ranks/deranks is confusing and unintuitive. Whether you apply a realm + or - before or after other mods changes the final result. This convolves issue #1, since its confusing how debuffs we apply to people (and buffs they get applied to them) can take effect after their rank adjustment for realm. I'd venture to say that this is actually important for LQ as she might meaningfully engage huge organized groups of Yellows at some point, especially groups under heavy buffs to make them competitive. The realm adjustment should probably happen consistently to either the attacker, the defender, the lower ranked, or the higher ranked in any interaction (I'm not sure which, but it should definitely be a protag-agnostic thing), and it should probably happen after all other mods have been applied, for maximum consistency.
 
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My previous post was kind of snippy, sorry for that, just got frustrated for a sec.

Main thing I'll be doing is editing out most of the descriptors from the letter ranks, they really did confuse way more than they helped.
 
Alectai said:
Yeah, considering the whole point is "This is so that when you get a rundown of someone's abilities at a given moment, it's how it stacks up to you"

People are just ruining it by reading more crunch into it as intended by trying to find interactions where it breaks, like this is intented to be a hardcore RP system rather than a narrative set of guidelines like how the big narrative games do the whole "Adept/Skilled/Veteran/Master" thing.
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Don't tempt me into going even softer mechanically by mentioning Number None :p
 
yrsillar said:
Don't tempt me into going even softer mechanically by mentioning Number None :p
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yrs just snaps and scraps everything, number crunchers scream in existential horror as complicated stats are replaced by an ordinal scale, their spreadsheets auto-deleting themselves in utter shame at their purposelessness, the people storm the mechanical academy and take the students hostage, the professors filled filled with throwing knives and arrows as their murderers shout, 'IT FIT THEMATICALLY YOU ANIMALS WHY DID YOU LEAVE IT BEHIND'
 
It's a pretty good system TBH.

The way I see it, your system's fine for what it sets out to do, to let people determine comparative advantages. I'd rather a fun game than a mechanically crunchy one.
 
Don't forget to make Specialties for the Specialties to make the crunch-cultists happy.

Maybe even Specialties for the Specialties of Specialties.
 
The Sandman said:
Don't forget to make Specialties for the Specialties to make the crunch-cultists happy.

Maybe even Specialties for the Specialties of Specialties.
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The Redundancy Department of Redundancy regrets to inform you that any attempt to get overly redundant must first be approved by three independent members of the Redundancy Department of Redundancy by submitting the pre-approved paperwork in triplicate. Should they grant approval for your attempt to be overly redundant, then you may have permission to request the three members of the Redundancy Board of Redundancy to approve the project, using the pre-approved forms in triplicate.

We thank you for your understanding regarding this matter.
 
yrsillar said:
Bluntly, the whole system only really exists to give numerical representation to your growth and make it easy for me to provide some simplified statblocks at the beginnings of combats to address the complaints about people not knowing the relative strengths of enemies. I have never intended to track npc statistics on a constant basis, so I never really considered the trouble in other characters going up and down ranks over time, since I would just make a revision of the statblock the next time they were involved in a relevant combat or contest to take into account their growth.
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This, I think, is what has been missing from the discussion so far; a mission statement. If npc statistics are basically generated on an as-needed basis then much of my objections fall away. (though whatever rules remain should still be at least explicit enough to be applied consistently).

Of course that can lead to its own issues like others advancing too fast or too slowly due to poor tracking on your end, but then that's something you'd have to deal with regardless of any system presence. Tracking you should do it however is most convenient to you.

Also there's really nothing to apologize for, that response was mild at best and I'm sure most of us here just want the sequel to not collapse under its mechanical complexity, and the incomplete information we've been extrapolating from seemed worrying without due context.
 
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