Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

Paradoxically, it would have gone very well for Ji Rong too, because he was specced to win that kind of contest too. Neither of them were equipped to win a wargame, but if it was just a series of impromptu brawls? Well...
The interesting thing here is that in such a scenario it's likely Ji Rong would have never ended up with Sun Liling, making him much weaker by the end. After all him going with Sun Liling wasn't just because she is hot, but also because of revenge and losing constantly humbling him.

He would still probably have been frozen by Xuan Shi, but afterwards he would probably have gone his own way after punching Xuan Shi's face in at thunderdom redux.
 
The interesting thing here is that in such a scenario it's likely Ji Rong would have never ended up with Sun Liling, making him much weaker by the end. After all him going with Sun Liling wasn't just because she is hot, but also because of revenge and losing constantly humbling him.

He would still probably have been frozen by Xuan Shi, but afterwards he would probably have gone his own way after punching Xuan Shi's face in at thunderdom redux.

Not quite, Ji Rong's super Talent means that he thrives in a condition where resources are scarce and harshly fought over. Because while times of plenty are still better for him--it's an even greater bonus for people who don't have ridiculous Talent, because he needs far less to grow faster than everyone else. It's plausible that he pulls second place in this timeline (Not first place though, that's going to Liling)

Not terribly likely, but plausible, especially given how Renxiang and Meizhen are unlikely to get any meaningful support in this timeline after Liling crushed both of them.
 
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Not quite, Ji Rong's super Talent means that he thrives in a condition where resources are scarce and harshly fought over. Because while times of plenty are still better for him--it's an even greater bonus for people who don't have ridiculous Talent, because he needs far less to grow faster than everyone else. It's plausible that he pulls second place in this timeline (Not first place though, that's going to Liling)

Not terribly likely, but plausible.
Ji Rong's super talent means he thrives even more when he has high ressources, and he had that thanks to Liling.

Without Liling he would have been weaker, no question. The question is whether Meizhen/CRX would have been weak enough to be taken down by him in the tournament, but I suspect that if CRX failed at her government she would have been going all in for power in order to show off in the tournament, so...
 
Ji Rong's super talent means he thrives even more when he has high ressources, and he had that thanks to Liling.

Without Liling he would have been weaker, no question. The question is whether Meizhen/CRX would have been weak enough to be taken down by him in the tournament, but I suspect that if CRX failed at her government she would have been going all in for power in order to show off in the tournament, so...

Which is why I say Ji Rong pulling second place is only plausible, not likely.

Basically, our key contribution to this year was preventing it from becoming a generic Xianxia society where it's every man for itself--and instead let it stay a decent model of a functioning feudal society where collective action is what lets settled groups compete against the individually superior bandits and barbarians.
 
Neither of them were equipped to win a wargame

Kind of disagree with that bit. They were specced into winning a war game, but war game needs someone else besides fighters and tactitians to be won - scouts, commanders, spies, strategists, suppliers. CRX's side had all that - LQ, GG, that 'frame them for me' guy, CRX herself and all production students in that order; SL had only a supplier YR (arguably the best one in the region) but he unfortunately got in the way of the best infiltrator in the region.
 
Yeah, basically, that's the issue.

Liling was prepped to win a smashmouth offense to break the back of resistance and then fund her dominance off of plunder. It worked as long as she could win that initial fight, but that never happened, and Renxiang was able to get logistical dominance.
 
I'm not so sure about if Sun Lilling would have beaten Cai had Ling Qi not been there. Firstly, remember we didn't contribute that much to the government before Thunderdome 2. I'd agree that it would have been far closer, though, particularly during the long campaign to actually force Sun to capitulate. I'd say what would have happened instead is Cai wouldn't have been able to force Sun to surrender unless Sun actually went far enough for the Elders to intervene (which I think they actually did do once, for that matter, since I think at one point Sun was barred from the residential areas by the Sect. Presumably the Sun's influence would be why she wasn't thrown out of the Sect entirely.)

but yeah, the biggest reason Cai won is she had an actual government, while Sun never truly did. Sun's "government" was more about people turning up when she wanted to attack someone (it's not entirely clear, for instance, how much help she actually gave her followers, while Cai definitely did. ( her enforcers were paid, for instance, and she had Gan training them as well. Combine that with defensive aid and that's what Cai offered her followers. Sun, however, offered just defensive aid. (I don't count finding a tutor for Ji Rong if that's canon since that was purely to make him more useful to her- and it was explicitly "beat some sense into him" IIRC, so I wouldn't be surprised if it actually held him back some since I doubt it was building on his existing cultivation.))
 
it's not entirely clear, for instance, how much help she actually gave her followers, while Cai definitely did

Because we don't see things from her perspective? Maybe she did all that.

I'm not so sure about if Sun Lilling would have beaten Cai had Ling Qi not been there

LQ was the one who decided that she and BM will take part in Tdd2 on CRX's side - and we all know that in an open combat SL will trash any Outer sect member who doesn't have sister Cui - so that CRX vs SL MU's already decided.
 
but yeah, the biggest reason Cai won is she had an actual government, while Sun never truly did. Sun's "government" was more about people turning up when she wanted to attack someone (it's not entirely clear, for instance, how much help she actually gave her followers, while Cai definitely did. ( her enforcers were paid, for instance, and she had Gan training them as well. Combine that with defensive aid and that's what Cai offered her followers. Sun, however, offered just defensive aid. (I don't count finding a tutor for Ji Rong if that's canon since that was purely to make him more useful to her- and it was explicitly "beat some sense into him" IIRC, so I wouldn't be surprised if it actually held him back some since I doubt it was building on his existing cultivation.))
Sun Liling equipped her fortress guards with custom equipment that was incredibly good. I have no doubt that she did equip and pay her followers.
 
Something to note is that CRX got Meizhen friendship from meizhen being compromised due to us. If Meizhen kept losing over and over again and had her clan tell her to shape up, she could be shaken enough to join CRX.
 
LQ was the one who decided that she and BM will take part in Tdd2 on CRX's side - and we all know that in an open combat SL will trash any Outer sect member who doesn't have sister Cui - so that CRX vs SL MU's already decided.

I dunno. Meizhen would probably have joined on CRXs side during Tdd2 anyways out of sheer hatred for the Sun and because CRX would probably still have protected her from Kangs attack during Tdd1. Ling Qi definitely brought the Golden Fields group into that battle, but i am not sure whether they actually were a decisive addition.
 
I dunno. Meizhen would probably have joined on CRXs side during Tdd2 anyways out of sheer hatred for the Sun and because CRX would probably still have protected her from Kangs attack during Tdd1. Ling Qi definitely brought the Golden Fields group into that battle, but i am not sure whether they actually were a decisive addition.

Not sure. W/o LQ Bai Meizhen stays injured after her initial clash with SL. Khang's attack probably still happens - and w/o LQ's support she's likely overwhelmed during the first round, robbed of everything, humiliated and beaten some more. Would she want to do anything with sect members, or hole up in her new house? Bai's default after-loss 'fuck you, I'm gonna sit on my territory' doctrine is well known, after all. So she might not even be there during Tdd2.
 
Not sure. W/o LQ Bai Meizhen stays injured after her initial clash with SL. Khang's attack probably still happens - and w/o LQ's support she's likely overwhelmed during the first round, robbed of everything, humiliated and beaten some more. Would she want to do anything with sect members, or hole up in her new house? Bai's default after-loss 'fuck you, I'm gonna sit on my territory' doctrine is well known, after all. So she might not even be there during Tdd2.

I doubt that the scrubs in the first ambush would have actually beaten her. Aside from drawing some bow fire Ling Qi didn't really do all that much during that fight, so i figure things would have proceeded roughly the same.
 
Aside from drawing some bow fire Ling Qi didn't really do all that much during that fight

The archers were scrubs, true, but the arrows were seriously enchanted from what I recall. And Meizhen had trouble with 4 of them, adding two more and those with decent punch? Could've gone either way I suppose.
 
Meizhen trouncing the scrubs would just allow for Kang to swoop in and "save them"

Pretty much this. If the entire group had been focusing on her rather than split attacking her and LQ, they may have had more luck. (They did clip Meizhen once or twice as is.)

Win or lose, she'd have to spend qi. Then Kang shows up and makes a grand entrance like a hero from a story book (in his head, at least) and fights the now substantially weakened and injured Meizhen.


It's actually a fairly good plan, and probably would have worked if CRX wasnt so 'JUSTICE!!!' about things.
 
Well, looking at the initial circumstances fallout:
1) Opening spar with Meizhen. According to Meizhen she'd had decided to squat in the ruins of her home to heal up because she expected to be jumped by Kang(who was already known to support Liling unless you were politically blind) the moment she leaves the girls' section, while Liling didn't have to worry because she had Kang waiting outside. She was right. This leads to Meizhen losing out on a week or two of exploration while she works on recovery using her own medicine with no healer.
1.1) In the event that Meizhen goes out to seek a healer, Kang's minions would ambush her with a purchased formation trap field right outside the girls' zone, with the expectation that even the injured and exhausted Meizhen would win, but either weaken herself too much or Cui would go overboard and the Elders step in to timeout her. Then Kang will show up and Meizhen isn't going to beat him AND the remaining minions. This would happen too quickly for support to arrive.
1.2) Outcome of this plot is that Meizhen would spend the first month of Thunderdome hiding in a cave somewhere meditating to recover, with choice pieces of her gear looted and used to fund Kang if she gambles on breaking out. Kang, by showing strength would gather more minions for himself and Liling. Liling, with Meizhen out of the way, would have free rein to explore the mountain without fear of attack.

Ling Qi cocked this up by dragging things out JUST long enough for Cai to come to Meizhen's rescue.
Cai cocked this up by not behaving to Liling's expectations, where it'd be logical for her to join in on the Bai-kicking and looting, or at least ignore it.

2) The First Council Meeting would have fell through. Bai Meizhen after her defeat would have gone full paranoid hermit and ignored the call for a meeting, fearing another trap. Which leaves the meeting as Cai(Duke) vs Sun(Duke) + Kang(Count), with Golden Fields(Various sub-ducal) Ji Rong(Commoner) and whatshisname(Count) standing neutral.

Ling Qi cocked this up by foiling Plot 1, and Cai cocked this up by winning the gratitude of Meizhen with her rescue, as two Dukes on the same side leaves Sun without much recourse.

3) Renshu sets about ostracizing talented commoners(identified from the class performances) from the nobility, provoking retaliation upon them and then Yan Sempai will offer them a contract to get out of their resource hole. A Kyubey hat may or may not be involved.
3.1) If theres no government order then it'd be straight up being ganged up on.
3.2) If theres a government order the high nobles probably won't even check to see if the commoners actually did it due to preset prejudices.

Ling Qi cocked this up by somehow befriending a high noble(more if you include ) within a month, which meant that Cai was required to at least give a cursory investigation, which means the plot fell through for her.
Liling cocked this up by intercepting and recruiting Ji Rong before Renshu could get him..

4) Sun Liling should have won the rebellion.
4.1) Meizhen should be doing the full hermit thing somewhere on the mountain and only noticed when the fighting started. If she wasn't, Kang is there and ready to pin her down from doing jack shit.
4.2) Golden Fields would have stayed out of the fight. They actually tried to.
4.3) Ji Rong was recruited by Liling.
4.4) Ling Qi should have been against Cai after Renshu's plot.
4.5) Nothing there was ready for Sunflower Field
4.6) Which means its a facepunch duel between Liling and Renxiang, which she only needs to fight to a draw to win

Ling Qi cocked 4.1 up by butterflying Plot 1, which meant that Meizhen was obligated to come to Renxiang's aid. Still, that just means Kang isn't free to act due to tarpitting Meizhen.

Ling Qi cocked 4.2 up by befriending Xiulan(Liling:"Where the fuck does she find the time?!"), dragging Xiulan into the fight, which meant that the rest of Golden Fields was dragged into the fight because one of theirs was in trouble. This also meant that Golden Fields became de-facto Cai supporters.

Due to Plot 3 going wrong, Ling Qi is there to cock up 4.5, as it turns out the Sunflower Field was countered by FVM just barely long enough that she didn't win anything before the Elders showed up.

5) Sun Liling should have won the second rebellion, she had the initiative, she had the help of the senior students and everything was wrecked.

Well...she did win it actually, all Ling Qi did was limit the damage from ruinous to painful by sweeping up all the scattered forces into one band.

6) Whatever Yan Renshu was up to. This isn't actually important, except for an infusion of resources via the loot to recover from 5.

Ling Qi: "I loot everything not nailed down. Also that book is nailed down but that won't stop me."

7) Sun Liling should have at least gotten a draw on the fortress game. She had a fortified position, specialized talismans to counter all known strategies of the Cai faction, specialist trick arrows and all that. If Cai didn't engage her she'd just sit there eroding their legitimacy, if Cai DID engage her she'd make the fighting so costly that Cai's order could well collapse from bankruptcy in paying the healing costs of everyone.
7.1) She decided to complicate a good thing by taking away most of her heavy hitters to set up a two pronged ambush for Ling Qi. She didn't need to guard the last approach because its monster filled mountains more dangerous to Ling Qi than to her...not.

Sun Liling left the defensible, prepared position with everyone she'd need to hold that position to hunt Bugs Bunny over the mountain and keep going even though it wasn't working, allowing the position to be torn apart. We honestly can't credit this fuckup to Ling Qi. It's all on Liling.
 
Well, looking at the initial circumstances fallout:
1) Opening spar with Meizhen. According to Meizhen she'd had decided to squat in the ruins of her home to heal up because she expected to be jumped by Kang(who was already known to support Liling unless you were politically blind) the moment she leaves the girls' section, while Liling didn't have to worry because she had Kang waiting outside. She was right. This leads to Meizhen losing out on a week or two of exploration while she works on recovery using her own medicine with no healer.
1.1) In the event that Meizhen goes out to seek a healer, Kang's minions would ambush her with a purchased formation trap field right outside the girls' zone, with the expectation that even the injured and exhausted Meizhen would win, but either weaken herself too much or Cui would go overboard and the Elders step in to timeout her. Then Kang will show up and Meizhen isn't going to beat him AND the remaining minions. This would happen too quickly for support to arrive.
1.2) Outcome of this plot is that Meizhen would spend the first month of Thunderdome hiding in a cave somewhere meditating to recover, with choice pieces of her gear looted and used to fund Kang if she gambles on breaking out. Kang, by showing strength would gather more minions for himself and Liling. Liling, with Meizhen out of the way, would have free rein to explore the mountain without fear of attack.

Ling Qi cocked this up by dragging things out JUST long enough for Cai to come to Meizhen's rescue.
Cai cocked this up by not behaving to Liling's expectations, where it'd be logical for her to join in on the Bai-kicking and looting, or at least ignore it.

2) The First Council Meeting would have fell through. Bai Meizhen after her defeat would have gone full paranoid hermit and ignored the call for a meeting, fearing another trap. Which leaves the meeting as Cai(Duke) vs Sun(Duke) + Kang(Count), with Golden Fields(Various sub-ducal) Ji Rong(Commoner) and whatshisname(Count) standing neutral.

Ling Qi cocked this up by foiling Plot 1, and Cai cocked this up by winning the gratitude of Meizhen with her rescue, as two Dukes on the same side leaves Sun without much recourse.

3) Renshu sets about ostracizing talented commoners(identified from the class performances) from the nobility, provoking retaliation upon them and then Yan Sempai will offer them a contract to get out of their resource hole. A Kyubey hat may or may not be involved.
3.1) If theres no government order then it'd be straight up being ganged up on.
3.2) If theres a government order the high nobles probably won't even check to see if the commoners actually did it due to preset prejudices.

Ling Qi cocked this up by somehow befriending a high noble(more if you include ) within a month, which meant that Cai was required to at least give a cursory investigation, which means the plot fell through for her.
Liling cocked this up by intercepting and recruiting Ji Rong before Renshu could get him..

4) Sun Liling should have won the rebellion.
4.1) Meizhen should be doing the full hermit thing somewhere on the mountain and only noticed when the fighting started. If she wasn't, Kang is there and ready to pin her down from doing jack shit.
4.2) Golden Fields would have stayed out of the fight. They actually tried to.
4.3) Ji Rong was recruited by Liling.
4.4) Ling Qi should have been against Cai after Renshu's plot.
4.5) Nothing there was ready for Sunflower Field
4.6) Which means its a facepunch duel between Liling and Renxiang, which she only needs to fight to a draw to win

Ling Qi cocked 4.1 up by butterflying Plot 1, which meant that Meizhen was obligated to come to Renxiang's aid. Still, that just means Kang isn't free to act due to tarpitting Meizhen.

Ling Qi cocked 4.2 up by befriending Xiulan(Liling:"Where the fuck does she find the time?!"), dragging Xiulan into the fight, which meant that the rest of Golden Fields was dragged into the fight because one of theirs was in trouble. This also meant that Golden Fields became de-facto Cai supporters.

Due to Plot 3 going wrong, Ling Qi is there to cock up 4.5, as it turns out the Sunflower Field was countered by FVM just barely long enough that she didn't win anything before the Elders showed up.

5) Sun Liling should have won the second rebellion, she had the initiative, she had the help of the senior students and everything was wrecked.

Well...she did win it actually, all Ling Qi did was limit the damage from ruinous to painful by sweeping up all the scattered forces into one band.

6) Whatever Yan Renshu was up to. This isn't actually important, except for an infusion of resources via the loot to recover from 5.

Ling Qi: "I loot everything not nailed down. Also that book is nailed down but that won't stop me."

7) Sun Liling should have at least gotten a draw on the fortress game. She had a fortified position, specialized talismans to counter all known strategies of the Cai faction, specialist trick arrows and all that. If Cai didn't engage her she'd just sit there eroding their legitimacy, if Cai DID engage her she'd make the fighting so costly that Cai's order could well collapse from bankruptcy in paying the healing costs of everyone.
7.1) She decided to complicate a good thing by taking away most of her heavy hitters to set up a two pronged ambush for Ling Qi. She didn't need to guard the last approach because its monster filled mountains more dangerous to Ling Qi than to her...not.

Sun Liling left the defensible, prepared position with everyone she'd need to hold that position to hunt Bugs Bunny over the mountain and keep going even though it wasn't working, allowing the position to be torn apart. We honestly can't credit this fuckup to Ling Qi. It's all on Liling.

I agree with everything except that Liling've been planning rebellion/Kang alliance from the start. Imo she just wanted to have a good fight - and, rightfully, only Bai Snek can provide that. She even started her rebellion cuz she was bored that noone's fighting.
 
I agree with everything except that Liling've been planning rebellion/Kang alliance from the start. Imo she just wanted to have a good fight - and, rightfully, only Bai Snek can provide that. She even started her rebellion cuz she was bored that noone's fighting.

Also, I'm still thinking it's reasonable that Liling's Cultivation Art can farm successes off of combat in some way the same way we do off of thievery and/or discovering mysteries.
 
Also, I'm still thinking it's reasonable that Liling's Cultivation Art can farm successes off of combat in some way the same way we do off of thievery and/or discovering mysteries.

I mean, I think it is basically canon ?

"As if I'd end such a good fight before it's even over," The redhead laughed. "This is doing just fine at settling my foundations Cai. Come at me."

>Liling speaking about Thunderdome Redux
 
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I'm not sure that Sun Liling would have bothered jail-breaking Ji Rong and hopping him up on berserker drugs if Meizhen was being a grumpy hermit away from Cai's council. She might've, just to lock down Xuan Shi for sure, but it's not a guarantee. If the council was already dysfunctional, in-house muscle might've been enough in her estimation. This would've left Ji Rong much more firmly in Chu Song's camp, whose own efforts could have turned out less self-destructive thanks to the general chaos.
 
Xuan Shi is from a ducal family too and also has a crush on Cai.

I think AbeoLogos meant that Ji Rong would have been Sun Lilling's counter for Xuan Shi- which actually plays into a point I've made before. This year is going to shake up the usual Outer Sect factions some, IMHO, because you have abnormalyl successful commoners. Specifically, normally things would presumably go:
1. The scions of the highest-ranking nobles present create their own factions (so the main factions would have been Bai, Cai, Sun and Xuan)
2. the scions of the next- highest rank of nobles would tend to be the lieutenants of the leaders of the major factions, similar to vassals in the wider Empire. In this case, the Count-Level heirs (so Han and Kang for sure, I think various others too, but I can't remember for sure)
3. the scions of the third-highest ranking nobles present act similarly for the 2nd-rankers. This would this year be the viscount heirs, though it can be baronial heirs (or talented commoners) in a year with no ducal heirs.
4. the scions of Baronial Houses often either form the rank-and-file, or are put in charge of groups of common cultivators. Talented commoners might be put at this level, since it's quite rare for commoners to reach higher, partly because most commoners don't actually have ambitions above rising to the nobility and partly because they rarely have sufficient resources, particularly due to the usual low-level attacks.
5. Commoners, frnakly, are often all but below the notice of the factions except to exploit them.

How this year has shaken it up somewhat is that commoners have held roles considered appropriate for Count Heirs. Yes, LQ isn't that unusual for a cultivator (though I would question if she really would be considered to have done only as well as a Count Scion) but the whole point is she wound up wielding disproportionate influence. Indeed, in some ways while I disagree with them I accept that it's arguable LQ functioned as a Kingmaker in the Outer Sect this year. As a commoner. Not to mention that she has actually developed sufficient connections that if she was a boy, the Ling Clan would probably be tipped for great things. (I say if she was a boy because of the obvious problem that if she marries a noble, she would join their clan, so the name would die out.)
 
Commoners, frnakly, are often all but below the notice of the factions except to exploit them.

Incorrect, any commoner in Sect would be firmly above average. MoI won't bother with lower talents and clans would provide their background to those they find.

I say if she was a boy because of the obvious problem that if she marries a noble, she would join their clan, so the name would die out.

I thought that in this world both to-be-spouses can be forced to marry into the family, not only wife?
 
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