Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

I thought that in this world both to-be-spouses can be forced to marry into the family, not only wife?
Yep, Marriage precedence depends entirely on the individual marriage contract. A minor member of a Ducal clan can marry into a Count or Baronial clan just fine, keeping in mind that of course, most of the ancient Ducal clans consist of tens of thousands of members, most of who are not important at all beyond their name. Likewise, the Baronial vassal of a powerful Duke cannot be assimilated by marriage, at least not without the consent of their liege.
Incorrect, any commoner in Sect would be firmly above average. MoI won't bother with lower talents and clans would provide their background to those they find.
Theres a great deal of depth that was missed out in the discussion.
You got:
-High Nobles(Dukes)
-Mid Nobles(Counts)
-Low Nobles(Barons)
-Common Cultivators(lifetime Red Guards, Soldiers, Artisans, Farmers, see Ma sisters)
-Rich Commoners(Merchants)
-Poor Commoners(Talented, 'wild' Spiritblooded, etc)

Thus the weakest are those from a Rich Merchant background, who are from a family wealthy enough to send one of them to become a cultivator, yet not rich enough to be significant in terms of cultivation resources, nor starting awakened, nor born with enough Talent to get the MoI entry. Likewise the Commoners are probably just plain unable to compete with the High Nobles, no matter their Talent, because the High Nobles will only be sending their Talented anyways, so as not to lose face.
 
So, there was some discussion on discord regarding the state of our arts. This post is meant to contest a specific allegation made during that discussion, that SCS and FVM don't have enough synergy to be core arts. Since this post is going to be fairly long, discord is not the best location to post it, hence here.

1. FVM and SCS Synergy

The main thrust of the argument against the synergy of FVM and SCS, to my understanding, is that the ducal clans and our other peers have arts that are highly synergistic while FVM and SCS appear to only have incidental synergy. The strongest point of synergy between FVM and SCS is their respective stealth aspects which have failed to actually be used effectively in combat against peer level opponents.

To a point, I also agree that FVM and SCS's stealth aspects have failed to be effectively used in combat, but that is primarily a problem with the past stealth system which has led to difficulty in stealth being relevant to fighting. However, the preceding argument suffers from two critical errors in my opinion. One of definition and the other of application.

How does one define what is "highly synergistic" and then create a distinction between nominally synergistic? Where is the line drawn? Why is the line drawn there and not elsewhere? We can say that by definition the ducal clan arts are highly synergistic because they result in powerful combat tricks, but that could just as easily be explained by the quality and power of the individual arts, and not their synergy. Another definition is that the Ducal Clan arts all revolve around a theme of combat (for instance the Meizhen's counter-strategy is supported by her offensive arts reducing the opponents offensive strength) and that is where the synergy comes from.

The latter definition seems more helpful to how we approach art choices as well as simply a more robust definition. So that is the definition that I am going to be using. It does create a problem though. If arts support a theme for combat, but can't compete against the members of a ducal clan, does that mean that those arts aren't synergistic? That seems like an incredibly dangerous road to go down as it defines the synergy of our arts around the strength of our opponents. If they can beat us than our arts weren't synergistic enough. That sounds like a terrible guideline to use. It is purely subjective because the status of our opponents will always be changing and thus the synergy of our arts will be constantly changing. No, achieving an objective standard of how synergistic our arts are is much more helpful and productive in my opinion. While this post isn't about setting up an objective means of establishing synergy, an idea is to figure out how helpful an art is to how Ling Qi fights.

The next problem of the original argument is the application. Or, in other words, how to apply the standard of "highly synergistic" to what SCS and FVM do in order to determine if they are synergistic or not. The argument against SCS and FVM having synergy looks at SCS and FVM in a vacuum and notes that stealth is an area where they overlap; stealth, then, is where SCS and FVM have synergy, but that synergy hasn't been very effective and so SCS and FVM don't have good synergy.

The problem with this train of argumentation is that it relies on a problematic stealth system and only focuses on one aspect of the respective arts rather than looking at how the arts as a whole help with a style of combat. For as cool as stealth is... it isn't a style of combat; it needs to be combined with something else in order to be effective. And even if it was a style of combat, it isn't a style of combat that Ling Qi has used against peer opponents.

2. How FVM and SCS are Synergistic

Now, using the previous definition of synergy (arts revolve around a theme of combat) how is it that FVM and SCS are synergistic? Well, as Ling Qi has shown in the Preliminary Fight, the Chu Song fight, and the Ji Rong fight, Ling Qi generally prefers a combat theme of attrition. Of whittling down the opponent over a period of time. So the question then becomes "Does FVM and SCS synergize well in a combat theme revolving around attrition?"

Well, SCS promotes striking first and FVM benefits from hitting first before the opponent can truly get their spiritual defenses up. FVM then reduces the opponents' ability to strike at us which SCS capitalizes on by boosting our defenses. FVM then makes it so that it can be difficult to get close to us which SCS capitalizes on by granting us mobility. SCS then allows us to stick our more potent FVM debuffs to a target, and those debuffs reinforce the inability of our opponents to hit us while draining the opponent's qi. This allows us to outlast our opponent as they are slowly whittled down over a period of time.

While stealth is an area that FVM and SCS have in common, it should be apparent that SCS has some very solid synergy with FVM. It does this by providing offensive boosts to FVM in it's most difficult stage (the opener), and then FVM assists SCS in keeping us alive throughout the fight by reducing the opponent's ability to hit us and get close to us. At this point, SCS can assist FVM land it's more powerful debuffs should it be required. All in all, FVM and SCS create a neat package where each art appears to greatly assist each other in an attrition style of play. Which means that they should be classified as highly synergistic.

The Chu Song fight is a prime example of the synergies that these arts have in an attrition theme of combat. Despite Chu Song's seemingly synergistic build, we absolutely dominated her. One could argue that Chu Song wasn't a peer, and so her fight shouldn't count as a benchmark for how synergistic our arts are. This type of argument against art synergies was discussed in part one, where I found it lacking.

Tl;dr: FVM and SCS are synergistic and saying arts aren't synergistic because of the strength of our opponents is begging for trouble.
 
Yrsillar was on the Discord for about 8 hours or so. Naturally, that means WOG. LOTS of WoG. I hope you guys appreciate the effort I put into this.

First RoyalRoadl chapter is gonna be on Thursday. The next thread will be up within a week or two.

Interesting things about the new mechanics. Yrs is obviously doing away with exact measurements of speed as well as combat dice, but he is also doing away with skill checks and tests, at least in terms of rolling. Instead, there will be "Challenges tiered to skill" and the mechanics are more focused on you stacking favorable conditions rather than luck. This also means stats, attributes and skills will be much more important than they currently are.

Another tidbit. Apparently we were supposed to lose to Sun Liling, and the loss would have been our first big loss resulting in character development and stuff. If she had beat us immediately then she could have gone back to the fort in time to protect it from Cai. The dice really saved us there.

The Outer Sect mountain is stupidly and impossibly large in scale apparently. Zeqing's house is well above the cloudline.

I'd suggest checking the RoyalRoad version of the story, because Yrs has said he wanted to cut away and alter a few things in terms of the story to make it more polished. Especially since he cut edges to give himself a consistent update schedule. This includes stuff like possibly making an adventure chapter in the Weilu Tomb we found instead of just instantly finding materials. Also, a fair portion of the endgame Renshu stuff is going to be changed.

Meizhen's lowest stats are Strength (still higher than Ling Qi's) and Manipulation, but she's overall really good at most stats.

Diao Lingqin is older than Shenhua by about 200 years, marking her as approximately 450 years old. Roughly in the same age range as Suzhen (almost 400) and Empress Xiang (roughly 400).

There will be no timeskip, the next thread picks up shortly after the end of the Epilogue.

The Bai branches are color coded. It was implied by Cai in story, but now also stated by Yrs.

Renxiang's asexuality was apparently a side effect of, and I quote, "other tweaks".

Su Ling's mom has about 2-5 children at any given time. It's stated by Yrs that "not all of them are lucky enough to have someone willing to take care of a fox baby". The implication here being that someone raised Su Ling, and it clearly wasn't her mom.

Huang Da was apparently told to stop stalking Ling Qi by his own dad, who had found out what kind of circles his son was dabbling in by bothering Ling Qi. He then went back to stalking Suyin for a while, only to stop once Spider Girl aka Bao Qingling. The Huang have a pretty strong intrigue game, but leave much to be desired when it comes to other areas. It's also stated by Yrsillar that he kinda regrets leaving the Huang Da storyline to fizzle out, but on the other hand, he was a creep that Yrs didn't enjoy writing.

The Sage Emperor had a Snake Wife (Bai), a Monkey Wife (Zheng), Deer Wife (Weilu), Sea Monster Wife (Jin) and Phoenix Wife (Lu). This confirms that Deers are the Weilu animal and Phoenix is the Lu animal. He was pretty vague with Jin, and obviously he didn't marry a Xuan woman, they joined later.

The ocean has been described by Yrs to be a "terrible place full of abominations". He also implied that the Jin and Sea Folk were from the Ethnic grouping "back then" when Erebeal asked him if the Sea Folk were mad about the Jin "stealing their schtick".

FoD was originally an RP world, and as a result there are equivalents to all the major real life cultures somewhere in the world. While the FoD world is a globe, it does not have poles. There is a Black Forest equivalent in FoD (the one in Germany) where cannibals live. Elves also exist in FoD. Past the Sea Folk, you can move through the lands of "The Pillarmen Egyptians", "blood soaked lands of the eternally warring island states of Pythos" and then you get to the cannibals of the Black Forest. If you go past the cannibals, you'll loop back to the frozen wastes at the south of the Empire's continent (or at least that's how I think it looks). There is no equivalent to the Roman Empire, and the British Isles equivalent never left Celtic dominance. All of this information is probably irrelevant, as Yrs said "it'll never be relevant to the story". Probably out of the scope of the quest.

The Empire, in comparison to all the other states, is not the weakest state around. It is one of the most advanced and stable states around.

The Sun is one of the more benevolent spirits around in the FoD verse, as opposed to the mercurial Moon. Yrs said that if the sun wasn't benevolent everyone would be dead otherwise. Whereas the moon sometimes protects you from gribblies with its gentle light and sometimes compels you to dance in a magic drug rave until you die. The sun does have some negative aspects, but they're seen in less temperate lands, such as Golden Fields.

The Phoenix Sublime Ancestor of the Lu, Purifying Sun was considered a Sun spirit. Now its not. While traces of her power remain, the entity known as the Purifying Sun is gone. When it was asked how killing the Twilight King resulted in the Purifying Sun's death, considering the best the Sage Emperor could do against the White Serpent was stall her, Yrs said "The Twilight King had gotten up to some real spooky shit".

When speaking about the Twilight King, Yrs said the following: "Like peopel have pointed out that sunflower goddess doesn;t act like a great spirit, and some folks have even dismissed her influence because of that
but there are a lot more endpoints to power than exist in the limited PoV of the imperial system
they all have their ups and downs, just like the cultivation systems that spawn them
Nagash is a good comparison
or possibly a successful Kemmler
or both"
When somebody said they bet that the Twilight King was stronger than the Sage Emperor, Yrs said "In a straight fight, probably. Cultivation had advanced quite a bit since those days". It's also implied he was single. He later went on to say that while the cultivation system had changed quite a bit since the SE's days, he would be considered on the upper reaches of White.

Surviving object spirits from the days of the Sage Emperor are considered weapons of mass destruction, but they are still considered primitive at their base considering how much talismans evolved.

The Zheng were described as "Merry kings of mountain and river" and that they constantly raided and plundered everyone around them and wondered why they were all so pissy about it. Yrs wants to exposit more about them, as they are one of the more alien cultures in the empire, at least as far as standard sensibilities.

Abeologos said: "What if we captured a Zheng and married him. If he's not swole enough to escape, can he really complain?"

And Yrs replied: "I mean kind of yes? That's basically what happened with the Reveler and Zhi the conqueror"

It is then stated that Zhi the conquerer was female, and that the Zheng and Bai had only met after Zhi and Yao the Fisher had ascended, due to the gap between them with Celestial Peaks in the center. It's also stated by Yrs that the "three of them ascended", referring likely to Zhi the Conquerer, Tsu the Diviner and Yao the Fisher. It's also stated that a lot of people ascended in the founding clans, not hundreds or anything, but a steady drip of ascensions. He does state that there have been various failures in regards to individuals who couldn't make it very far. Most notably two of the White Serpent/Yao's daughters, the 5th and 7th daughters, which formed the 5th and 7th branches of the Bai, who are the "commoner branches" of the Bai. A bunch of the first generation of the Zheng have also failed to accomplish much of note, including ascension.

"The White Serpent agreed to marry the man who had the ambition to bring her the heads of eight kings, still wet with their blood. The Stone Monkey submitted to the disciple who defeated him in battle and shattered the spine of the Umbral Dragon God. And the Horned Lord made a bond of brotherhood with the man who stood with him through the war against the resurgent beast gods of the Emerald Seas". It's clarified that Tsu the Diviner and the Horned Lord killed all the Beast Gods, so they're not an issue anymore.

Yao is called the Fisher for killing eight kings with a fishing spear, but also for dredging up resources from the bottom of the Thousand Lakes with the help of his wife. This resulted in an influx of spirit stones and tin, making them the first guys to get bronzeworking.

It's clarified that Dragons loved the creativity of humans, praising the pretty sounds and painted images of dragons that humans made. Essentially, they valued humans for their ability to perform delicate crafts and entertain. Heavenly dragons could also work and shape clouds into solid objects.

Due to a weird tangent, we find out that despite his fabulous hair, Lu Feng is straight.

There's nothing in the legal code enforcing monogamy, so generally polygamous marriages are not forbidden. It's generally not done for the most part.

We were talking about reality marbles and how they factored into Yrs' inspiration. He said that reality marbles were part of the inspiration for the conceptual building blocks of Domain, and that Domain was effectively the expression of the self on the world around them. What we saw with Suzhen and Shenhua was effectively a metaphorical representation of what was actually happening. Domains are also effectively a self contained world, and once that world fully metastizes, you ascend and leave this world behind.

When somebody said that the team composition of GF was two tanks and a support, Yrs corrected them to say "a tank, a support and an assassin", referring to Han Fang. Despite his big size, Yrs says that it's an obfuscation. He's far better at stealth. Yrs also said outright that Fan Yu's biggest problem was that his self confidence was shot behind a shed, which isn't good for your cultivation.

SCS+ will probably split off and specialize instead of being the catch all thing that it is right now.
 
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So, there was some discussion on discord regarding the state of our arts. This post is meant to contest a specific allegation made during that discussion, that SCS and FVM don't have enough synergy to be core arts. Since this post is going to be fairly long, discord is not the best location to post it, hence here.

1. FVM and SCS Synergy

The main thrust of the argument against the synergy of FVM and SCS, to my understanding, is that the ducal clans and our other peers have arts that are highly synergistic while FVM and SCS appear to only have incidental synergy. The strongest point of synergy between FVM and SCS is their respective stealth aspects which have failed to actually be used effectively in combat against peer level opponents.

To a point, I also agree that FVM and SCS's stealth aspects have failed to be effectively used in combat, but that is primarily a problem with the past stealth system which has led to difficulty in stealth being relevant to fighting. However, the preceding argument suffers from two critical errors in my opinion. One of definition and the other of application.

How does one define what is "highly synergistic" and then create a distinction between nominally synergistic? Where is the line drawn? Why is the line drawn there and not elsewhere? We can say that by definition the ducal clan arts are highly synergistic because they result in powerful combat tricks, but that could just as easily be explained by the quality and power of the individual arts, and not their synergy. Another definition is that the Ducal Clan arts all revolve around a theme of combat (for instance the Meizhen's counter-strategy is supported by her offensive arts reducing the opponents offensive strength) and that is where the synergy comes from.

The latter definition seems more helpful to how we approach art choices as well as simply a more robust definition. So that is the definition that I am going to be using. It does create a problem though. If arts support a theme for combat, but can't compete against the members of a ducal clan, does that mean that those arts aren't synergistic? That seems like an incredibly dangerous road to go down as it defines the synergy of our arts around the strength of our opponents. If they can beat us than our arts weren't synergistic enough. That sounds like a terrible guideline to use. It is purely subjective because the status of our opponents will always be changing and thus the synergy of our arts will be constantly changing. No, achieving an objective standard of how synergistic our arts are is much more helpful and productive in my opinion. While this post isn't about setting up an objective means of establishing synergy, an idea is to figure out how helpful an art is to how Ling Qi fights.

The next problem of the original argument is the application. Or, in other words, how to apply the standard of "highly synergistic" to what SCS and FVM do in order to determine if they are synergistic or not. The argument against SCS and FVM having synergy looks at SCS and FVM in a vacuum and notes that stealth is an area where they overlap; stealth, then, is where SCS and FVM have synergy, but that synergy hasn't been very effective and so SCS and FVM don't have good synergy.

The problem with this train of argumentation is that it relies on a problematic stealth system and only focuses on one aspect of the respective arts rather than looking at how the arts as a whole help with a style of combat. For as cool as stealth is... it isn't a style of combat; it needs to be combined with something else in order to be effective. And even if it was a style of combat, it isn't a style of combat that Ling Qi has used against peer opponents.
I mean, here you are basically saying "Well yeah, they aren't synergistic, but maybe they will be in the future!"

The point of saying they aren't synergistic is that they aren't synergistic now, not in a potential future system where nothing can be determined, because at that point we are basically entering tautology of "they are synergistic because they might maybe become so".

I am not sure why you are bringing up "it's not about not working against ducal scions", because no one is saying that. People are saying that be it Suyin, or Su Ling, or Xiulan, or Fan Yu, or Ji Rong, or Shen Hu, they clearly have core arts working together, and we don't.
2. How FVM and SCS are Synergistic

Now, using the previous definition of synergy (arts revolve around a theme of combat) how is it that FVM and SCS are synergistic? Well, as Ling Qi has shown in the Preliminary Fight, the Chu Song fight, and the Ji Rong fight, Ling Qi generally prefers a combat theme of attrition. Of whittling down the opponent over a period of time. So the question then becomes "Does FVM and SCS synergize well in a combat theme revolving around attrition?"

Well, SCS promotes striking first and FVM benefits from hitting first before the opponent can truly get their spiritual defenses up. FVM then reduces the opponents' ability to strike at us which SCS capitalizes on by boosting our defenses. FVM then makes it so that it can be difficult to get close to us which SCS capitalizes on by granting us mobility. SCS then allows us to stick our more potent FVM debuffs to a target, and those debuffs reinforce the inability of our opponents to hit us while draining the opponent's qi. This allows us to outlast our opponent as they are slowly whittled down over a period of time.

While stealth is an area that FVM and SCS have in common, it should be apparent that SCS has some very solid synergy with FVM. It does this by providing offensive boosts to FVM in it's most difficult stage (the opener), and then FVM assists SCS in keeping us alive throughout the fight by reducing the opponent's ability to hit us and get close to us. At this point, SCS can assist FVM land it's more powerful debuffs should it be required. All in all, FVM and SCS create a neat package where each art appears to greatly assist each other in an attrition style of play. Which means that they should be classified as highly synergistic.

The Chu Song fight is a prime example of the synergies that these arts have in an attrition theme of combat. Despite Chu Song's seemingly synergistic build, we absolutely dominated her. One could argue that Chu Song wasn't a peer, and so her fight shouldn't count as a benchmark for how synergistic our arts are. This type of argument against art synergies was discussed in part one, where I found it lacking.

Tl;dr: FVM and SCS are synergistic and saying arts aren't synergistic because of the strength of our opponents is begging for trouble.

For in-details, it doesn't have to do with "if they can beat us they aren't synergistic enough", it has to do with how SCS and FVM were given to us purposefully as two arts that "work together" at the time, and they began by having FVM enabling the use of SCS, SCS increasing our ability to tag people with FVM, and SCS/FVM both having some stealth themes. However, both SCS and FVM developped everything but their stealth themes, and SCS's assassin themes for better striking became actively anti-synergistic with FVM (needing melee to work) while FVM's ability to support SCS disappeared (not only was SCS able to work in full light, but the parts of SCS needing darkness were never supported by FVM).

We determine if two arts are synergistic by looking at their interactions together, and if we look at SCS and FVM, the more we mastered them and the less they had to do with each others. They can still work together, but they are now very much two different styles that happen to have some things in common, instead of two arts meant to work together, as they were told to Ling Qi they were.

You say that "they are working well together", but they don't anymore. The Chu Song fight is a prime example of how they don't, because SCS's stealth didn't improve the Diapason stealth tests, and so we had to have FVM overpower Chu Song by itself, and SCS basically doing nothing. We didn't strike first, we didn't stealth, and we barely used movements. FVM did all the leg work.

SCS is a core art, TRF is a core art, and FVM is a core art.... but they are core arts that don't actually have the synergy of core arts of everyone else we know of, not just 'ducal scions'.

tl;dr: FVM and SCS used to have synergy at lower levels, but they lost synergy as they levelled up, and now are two distinct arts for two distinct purposes, and any synergy they have is incidental.

Putting on a blindfold and pretending we shouldn't look at problems is helping no one.
 
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Minor correction. I said elves only exist obliquely, referring to the Weilu and the cannibal guys who have some of the traits usually assigned to elves in fantasy, which lead into the rest. There are no explicit elves.
 
Yeah, fortunately, most of these issues are salvagable--and not catastrophic in the meantime. Ling Qi's still punching at the Count Scion level based on her performance in the Tournament, and if our build is a bit too much of a mess to fully count as a Ducal Scion level, that's not on us.

And I'm pretty sure our patrons will help bring us up that next little bit, now that we've proven to be a viable asset.

I will say I'm pretty hyped to see SCS+ will Specialize like Fleeting Zephyr did, spatial manipulation is just my favorite thing in general, and focusing on that will be super.
 
Huang Da was apparently told to stop stalking Ling Qi by his own dad, who had found out what kind of circles his son was dabbling in by bothering Ling Qi. He then went back to stalking Suyin for a while, only to stop once Spider Girl aka Bao Qingling. The Huang have a pretty strong intrigue game, but leave much to be desired when it comes to other areas. It's also stated by Yrsillar that he kinda regrets leaving the Huang Da storyline to fizzle out, but on the other hand, he was a creep that Yrs didn't enjoy writing.
Huang Dad: "Son, why do you keep going after all the dangerous girls?"
The Sun is one of the more benevolent spirits around in the FoD verse, as opposed to the mercurial Moon. Yrs said that if the sun wasn't benevolent everyone would be dead otherwise. Whereas the moon sometimes protects you from gribblies with its gentle light and sometimes compels you to dance in a magic drug rave until you die. The sun does have some negative aspects, but they're seen in less temperate lands, such as Golden Fields.
...that sounds like Ling Qi's reputation!
When speaking about the Twilight King, Yrs said the following: "Like peopel have pointed out that sunflower goddess doesn;t act like a great spirit, and some folks have even dismissed her influence because of that
but there are a lot more endpoints to power than exist in the limited PoV of the imperial system
they all have their ups and downs, just like the cultivation systems that spawn them
Nagash is a good comparison
or possibly a successful Kemmler
or both"
When somebody said they bet that the Twilight King was stronger than the Sage Emperor, Yrs said "In a straight fight, probably. Cultivation had advanced quite a bit since those days". It's also implied he was single. He later went on to say that while the cultivation system had changed quite a bit since the SE's days, he would be considered on the upper reaches of White.
You know...we just accepted that the barbarians can't White/Ascend as gospel.
It sounds a lot like Sunflower Goddess was the result of spirit Symbiosis?

Like, Sublime Ancestors fall asleep and their souls go out exploring the greater universe, while White Ascensions means your pocket universe is fully mature and you don't really FIT in this universe anymore...but could it be that the Sunflower Goddess basically IS an Ascended White + Sublime Ancestor fused into one type of thing?
The White Serpent agreed to marry the man who had the ambition to bring her the heads of eight kings, still wet with their blood.

Yao is called the Fisher for killing eight kings with a fishing spear, but also for dredging up resources from the bottom of the Thousand Lakes with the help of his wife. This resulted in an influx of spirit stones and tin, making them the first guys to get bronzeworking.
Dang, man would go to GREAT LENGTHS for tail.

Also that explains so much of the Bai, as the founding culture of a Bronze Age civilization that pretty much means they expanded explosively unimpeded up to the physical limits of their ability to administrate ANYTHING. So they're basically Chalcolithic Culture when Mama Snek's girls ascended and carved Principles of Bai Rule into the universe.

Which lines up with their social strategies.
When somebody said that the team composition of GF was two tanks and a support, Yrs corrected them to say "a tank, a support and an assassin", referring to Han Fang. Despite his big size, Yrs says that it's an obfuscation. He's far better at stealth. Yrs also said outright that Fan Yu's biggest problem was that his self confidence was shot behind a shed, which isn't good for your cultivation.
Well, maybe he can heal with Xiulan no longer visible.
SCS+ will probably split off and specialize instead of being the catch all thing that it is right now.
So Dodge Good, Move Good and Stealth Good branches?
 
I admit, I feel considerable regret that we will not meet the Egyptian Pillarmen.

I mean, if we did, Ling Qi would probably need Sixiang to handle all the observations and politics and talking and pretty much everything that doesn't involve starring blankly.
 
while FVM's ability to support SCS disappeared (not only was SCS able to work in full light, but the parts of SCS needing darkness were never supported by FVM).
Mmm, this in particular is an good point. At the start, SCS was a very strong defensive buff (+3 dice to all defenses in Red?), but was restricted by needing low-light setup. As time went on, SCS continued to be a good buff, but we lost those restrictions for convenience's sake. Perhaps partly due to us having problems during that time with FVM and our terrible dice (due to our poor build decisions). Of course, those FVM problems have now been rectified.

I wonder: what if SCS was tweaked so that its baseline was lower, but the buffs it provides are stronger in low-light/darkness? Something like, idk, GCD is 4 dice normally, but goes up to 8 in low-light? Maybe it also gives a couple of points of stealth in low-light as well?

I'd suggest adding a bit of speed and stealth to OwS in low-light, but that might be giving it too much stuff.

It still wouldn't make it a great assassin art - but really as a movement art it's more about enabling sneak attacks rather than actually doing damage.

Thoughts?
 
Mmm, this in particular is an good point. At the start, SCS was a very strong defensive buff (+3 dice to all defenses in Red?), but was restricted by needing low-light setup. As time went on, SCS continued to be a good buff, but we lost those restrictions for convenience's sake. Perhaps partly due to us having problems during that time with FVM and our terrible dice (due to our poor build decisions). Of course, those FVM problems have now been rectified.

I wonder: what if SCS was tweaked so that its baseline was lower, but the buffs it provides are stronger in low-light/darkness? Something like, idk, GCD is 4 dice normally, but goes up to 8 in low-light? Maybe it also gives a couple of points of stealth in low-light as well?

I'd suggest adding a bit of speed and stealth to OwS in low-light, but that might be giving it too much stuff.

It still wouldn't make it a great assassin art - but really as a movement art it's more about enabling sneak attacks rather than actually doing damage.

Thoughts?

I mean, with the change in systems, it's kinda irrelevant.
 
Mmm, this in particular is an good point. At the start, SCS was a very strong defensive buff (+3 dice to all defenses in Red?), but was restricted by needing low-light setup. As time went on, SCS continued to be a good buff, but we lost those restrictions for convenience's sake. Perhaps partly due to us having problems during that time with FVM and our terrible dice (due to our poor build decisions). Of course, those FVM problems have now been rectified.

I wonder: what if SCS was tweaked so that its baseline was lower, but the buffs it provides are stronger in low-light/darkness? Something like, idk, GCD is 4 dice normally, but goes up to 8 in low-light? Maybe it also gives a couple of points of stealth in low-light as well?

I'd suggest adding a bit of speed and stealth to OwS in low-light, but that might be giving it too much stuff.

It still wouldn't make it a great assassin art - but really as a movement art it's more about enabling sneak attacks rather than actually doing damage.

Thoughts?
Well, the thing to note is that by green low light and full light basically don't matter for opponents, so the bonus they should give to ourself should be minimal... but both FVM and SCS should have switched to darkness, there.

So, say, GCD gives 4 dice normally, but another +4 while in darkness. Likewise, you could give it "can renew as a free action while in darkness". Continuing to give it the darkness theme, and if FVM then gives darkness, it continues the synergy somewhat.

@AbeoLogos also has the best idea that instead of SCS giving "bonus attack while hidden", FVM should (MOTV)... but it should also be part of the 'package' we give to allies we immunise, enhancing its aspect as a support art, and continuing the synergy between the two even further.
 
Well, the thing to note is that by green low light and full light basically don't matter for opponents, so the bonus they should give to ourself should be minimal... but both FVM and SCS should have switched to darkness, there
Good point. I wouldn't say that FVM should create darkness though. Rather, I'd say that the problem is that FVM has never really been given credit in the mechanics for being a thick fog bank.

The benefits of FVM to SCS shouldn't come from it muting the light levels a bit. They should come from it creating a veil of obscuring fog.

I'd suggest that a simple tweak from "in darkness" to "darkness or equivalently obscuring environment" or something would handle it?
 
Journey to the West is absolutely Xianxia yes.
-Prologue 1: Monkey is born from stone bathed by the cosmic power of Heaven and Earth. Monkey is blessed with natural flesh with the strength and resilience of stone, the agility and cunning of monkeys, and the limitless energy of the Heaven and Earth. Monkey creates a kingdom of monkeys upon the magical Flower Fruit Mountain using his innate talents and superiority over all the locals, and has like a thousand baby monkeys like a very hairy Young Master. Monkey realizes his mortality when one of the monkeys in his paradise dies of old age and goes out to find a solution.

-Prologue 2: Monkey journeys the land seeking, and his great talent catches the attention of a Taoist elder sage, who invites him into their Sect to pursue immortality via Taoist Enlightenment. He proves to be prodigiously talented and rapidly masters the Sect's art of Transformation to its greatest extent of 72 Transformations(other Talented people usually only get to 36 Transformations), as well as the Taoist rituals(water breathing, elemental resistance, divination, spirit calling, etc, basically Formations). However, he does stereotypical Arrogant Xianxia Protagonist things, showing off his mad transformation skillz, and gets kicked out for distracting the other students.

-Prologue 3: Now armed with magical kung fu and very pissed off, Monkey heads home. He decides to invade the Dragon King's palace and find someone who'd respect him, and they, very amused at this arrogant Monkey, challenges him to lift the pillar of red gold used to hold the tides down, planted in the sea since the time of Creation and immovable unless your strength was greater than the ocean. He does lift. He claims it for himself then shrinks it down to use it as his weapon, as he had so far not found any tool capable of withstanding his full strength. The Dragon King, now no longer amused at all and freaking terrified of this super monkey, quickly offers him further artifacts of Cloud Striding Boots(can walk on smoke or clouds), Golden Armor(is superbly defensive) and Phoenix Tail Headdress(is pimpin rad), while frantically sending messengers to Heaven about this terrifying monster.

-Prologue 4: Heaven got the message, passed it down to a branch office and wound up sending Monkey a job offer as Lord of the Celestial Stables. Monkey, having no social skills, does not realize the insultingly low status and takes the job. Its a fine job for a magic monkey since he got to play with the horses all day and get paid for it.

-Prologue 5: Heaven throws a party. The stableboylord is not invited. Monkey decided to see what the fuss is about, so he sneaks into the festival hall on the eve of the party, where he discovers lots of magic wine, magic fruit, and the star attraction of the party are magic drugs. He gets drunk(apparently its the first time he found a drink powerful enough to affect him), eats all the magic fruits which only grows once every thousand years, eats all the magic drugs, then runs around drunk, high as fuck and very heavily armed. They eventually capture him when he's sleeping off the bender and try to cook him into a drug on the basis that they're going to get those damned drugs back and hey, this monkey is sort of an S-rank ingredient anyway.

-Prologue 6: Unfortunately for Heaven he's surprisingly durable, so being cooked in elemental fire for 49 days didn't do anything except give him magic eyes and well justified pyrophobia. When they open the furnace he smashes his way out, causing a lot of the magical talismans and spirit beasts to escape, as well as the furnace falling from Heaven and making a volcano. He invades Hell, beats up everyone who gets in his way, and rips out all the pages relating to his family line, so they don't know when the monkeys will die and can't divine for him.

-Prologue 7: Then he goes home and declares himself the Great Sage Equal to Heaven, raising a rebellion force of terrestrial spirits and magical beasts. Heaven is not amused. He winds up fighting all of Heaven's armies at once with his army of magic kung fu monkeys, and allied spirits from around the world, traumatizing basically every minor god(theres a very good reason why on the pilgrimage every god he encounters is immediately very very cooperative). Eventually they were forced to call upon the Buddha, a transcendental being from another pantheon to capture him with higher tier conceptual attacks. But the Buddha wouldn't let Heaven kill off the monkeys, so they got to live. And Monkey was too durable for them to kill.

Then you have the Pilgrimage, during which he learns the meaning of peace, brotherhood and restraint, at the end of which he ascends to the Buddha of Victory.
Totes Xianxia Protagonist.
Fuck yeah. My local library had it as a kids series when I was a wee lad...

I can honestly say that Journey to the West and the Monkey King himself shaped Alot of my interests and expectation in mythological story telling. And I was a little Caribbean kid who didn't know what 'chinese' was at the time. I was probably about 7 when I started the series too.


Baby's first Xianxia adventure!!!
 
My concerns are deeper than the interactions of two of our arts, per se. So. Hm. It's difficult to say, because we don't have the clearest idea of what other cultivators are capable of, but it appears that in general, cultivators from established disciplines have 2-3 core Arts which synergize with their Cultivation Arts to create a signature style or approach or theory of combat that acts as their bedrock while they feel out other possibilities. Adding, mixing, swapping, and removing other bits while maintaining a seed ethos.

Gu Xiulan has overlapping elemental offense with a Cultivation Art that lets her burn hot; Bai Meizhen very early on dsiplayed high-synergy between her fear effects that slowed enemies from fleeing and debuffed all their actions unless they hit her, which baited them into her counter-attack mantle art; Sun Liling's spear weakens the enemy while empowering her armor which sprouts extra pointy bits that pin the enemy so she can spear them better, also she has go-fast; Han Jian has powerful support paired with good single-target attacks that cut through defenses, which fits him being prepared as a general; Hong Lin had heavy-hitting melee and dash movement to use it. I'm stretching no, but like I said, we mostly have insights into a few people, but it's not a benefit restricted to Ducal scions by any means(even if they're a step above).

FVM, SCS, and EPC are Ling Qi's core, most signature Arts. FSS and TRF are up there too, and they're solid adds, but if we're talking the nidus of Ling Qi's cultivation career and what should form the fundamentals of her combat style, it's those three Arts. The common theme is stealth, the clear strategy is hiding and harassing the enemy, but that's never really solidified as a reliable go-to strategy. It hasn't been a core competence, and it's consistently driven us to branch out in... sometimes unreliable, and ultimately unsustainable, ways. What this means is Ling Qi's had to pick up other things to form a baseline, and bluntly we've made some mistakes there, but in practical terms it also means that our foundation is a lot less secure than it feels like it should be with an Art trio that was curated for us, moving forwards.

The concern is the shakiness of our base while correcting some of our less stellar build decisions. We don't, under the current system at least, have a strong core competence to rely on while straining the good from the chaotic goop of the rest of our build. It's a disadvantage which should exist for Ling Qi to some extent due to her background, but that we're on the path to get hit by harder than can be justified based on the source of our core Arts, and the fact that we received the trio together, sold to us as a collaborative set.

Meanwhile, others aren't only insulated from much of the risks of experimentation, they're also reliably building on their core competencies with highly curated successor Arts which simply pick up where the old one left off and work from day one with no dead time. We, frankly, don't have the time to break in new Arts. They'll have to work right from right when we get them, or there's no viable competition with the denizens of the Inner Sect. Thankfully, I don't think this is a major risk; Arts in Green have been pretty immediately useful for the most part, from the two examples we've had.

So Dodge Good, Move Good and Stealth Good branches?
This? Looks like the opposite of what others are doing in Green, almost. I don't think strong specialization of this nature, of a signature Art, quite accomplishes addressing where the fault is in having an underperforming signature Art. Pivoting so narrowly risks cleaving open huge gaps in our other flank, which is what signature Arts are there to not do. Dodging, movement, and stealth are all kind of thematic and practical core competencies of Ling Qi, and leaving any by the wayside would be fairly crippling. Granted, PLR exists, but we arguably shouldn't be allowed to choose a successor that undercuts foundational competencies reinforced by our Cultivation Art(EPC) itself. It starts toeing into awkward narrative territory where we, for example, accepted a job as a spy mistress and then progressively got worse at it for unclear reasons. It's anti-cultivator, at least at our level of development. The foundation is still being built, it's a tad early to be hacking chunks of it off. We need choices that reinforce themes, not ones that pinball us between them.


So. Yeah. These are the structural issues as I see them. It's not just a matter of how two or three Arts interact, but the benefits their interactions are supposed to be bringing to our cultivation path as a whole by acting as a reliable anchor.
 
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I mean, here you are basically saying "Well yeah, they aren't synergistic, but maybe they will be in the future!"

The point of saying they aren't synergistic is that they aren't synergistic now, not in a potential future system where nothing can be determined, because at that point we are basically entering tautology of "they are synergistic because they might maybe become so".

I am not sure why you are bringing up "it's not about not working against ducal scions", because no one is saying that. People are saying that be it Suyin, or Su Ling, or Xiulan, or Fan Yu, or Ji Rong, or Shen Hu, they clearly have core arts working together, and we don't.
For in-details, it doesn't have to do with "if they can beat us they aren't synergistic enough", it has to do with how SCS and FVM were given to us purposefully as two arts that "work together" at the time, and they began by having FVM enabling the use of SCS, SCS increasing our ability to tag people with FVM, and SCS/FVM both having some stealth themes. However, both SCS and FVM developped everything but their stealth themes, and SCS's assassin themes for better striking became actively anti-synergistic with FVM (needing melee to work) while FVM's ability to support SCS disappeared (not only was SCS able to work in full light, but the parts of SCS needing darkness were never supported by FVM).

We determine if two arts are synergistic by looking at their interactions together, and if we look at SCS and FVM, the more we mastered them and the less they had to do with each others. They can still work together, but they are now very much two different styles that happen to have some things in common, instead of two arts meant to work together, as they were told to Ling Qi they were.

You say that "they are working well together", but they don't anymore. The Chu Song fight is a prime example of how they don't, because SCS's stealth didn't improve the Diapason stealth tests, and so we had to have FVM overpower Chu Song by itself, and SCS basically doing nothing. We didn't strike first, we didn't stealth, and we barely used movements. FVM did all the leg work.

SCS is a core art, TRF is a core art, and FVM is a core art.... but they are core arts that don't actually have the synergy of core arts of everyone else we know of, not just 'ducal scions'.

tl;dr: FVM and SCS used to have synergy at lower levels, but they lost synergy as they levelled up, and now are two distinct arts for two distinct purposes, and any synergy they have is incidental.

Putting on a blindfold and pretending we shouldn't look at problems is helping no one.
So, addressing the first part of your response.

We've been through this enough that at this point it has become either that you are intentionally misrepresenting what I say, or you have no understanding of what I said. Nowhere did I say that FVM and SCS don't have synergy now but might have in the future. I conceded that SCS and FVM don't have much synergy with stealth, but that doesn't mean that I think, or stated, that they don't have synergy now. The first part was not even whether they were synergistic now but how to define synergy. Because without defining what synergy is, then all we are is flapping our gums in the wind.

Also... I would love for you to point to two core arts that "Suyin, or Su Ling, or Xiulan, or Fan Yu, or Ji Rong, or Shen Hu" have that are "working together." Do you mean enabled by the other art, or what? Because as far as we know not even Meizhen has an art that is enabled by another art. They have consistent themes but how synergistic are their core arts? We have no clue.

Now on to the meat of your response.

It seems like the meat of your answer to why SCS and FVM lie in themes and interactions. You say that FVM and SCS were given to us purposefully as two arts that "work together" at the time... which is patently false. FVM was given to us to mitigate the conditional requirement that SCS has, to the best guess of Meizhen.
It is comparatively limited due to the conditional nature of its techniques, but I believe that whoever gave this to you intended for you to use it together with the flute technique to mitigate such things."
I can't find anywhere else that discusses whether FVM and SCS were meant to "work together" but if you can provide the quote where it was said directly that FVM and SCS were meant to "work together" in more of a capacity than FVM mitigating SCS's conditional technique use that would be great.

The rest of your first paragraph seems... completely misleading. SCS's assassin themes never became purely melee focused, only "One With Shadow" needed to be close, but the rest is completely fine at 200m. FVM's ability to support SCS never disappeared (given that it reduces the offense of an opponent and still provides stealth bonuses and perception decreases) but as we grew better with SCS we didn't need the condition of low light to activate its technique which means that FVM's need to mitigate SCS's weakness disappeared.

The second paragraph starts off with a definition of synergistic arts but doesn't classify what interactions are. But... if that is your definition of synergistic then the Argent Arts aren't synergistic. AM has no interactions with AC or AS. The passives don't assist each other, and the techniques don't assist each other. AS and AC have some synergy in that they both boost up physical melee attack, but that's about it.

As for the next part of the paragraph, they were always two distinctly separate themed arts that both happened to intersect in stealth. If you judge synergy by how alike the arts are and how much they have to do with each other then FVM and SCS have the same amount of synergy as they started out with. Only now the mitigation that occurs is in the form of reduced qi costs rather than an inability to use it. Also, as discussed above, it was never told to Ling Qi that they were meant to work together, only that FVM was meant to mitigate SCS's conditional nature.

As for the third paragraph... you and I remember a completely different fight. So let me quote the relevant part.
Ling Qi flitted through the mist like a shadow, battering the older girl at the center with bone chilling cold carried on the notes of a sad, lonely song, and fed. Always just out of reach of her swords physical blade, she lead her on a merry chase without hope. When a wind blade clipped her shoulder, it served only to chip at her recovering aura. When Chu Song tried to link back up with her spirit, crying out his name, Ling Qi buried her deeper still in the mist, until she could not even perceive the great bear any longer.
It's interesting that you say that SCS did nothing when we "flitted through the mists like a shadow" and was "always just out of reach of her sword's physical blade," and "we led her on a merry chase without hope." TRF certainly isn't the art that is known to keep distance and keep moving through the mists. It seems that SCS did most of the defensive work after FVM was placed and that TRF did very defense wise for the majority of the fight. It seems that we used a lot of movement and that was primarily our defense in the fight, without which Chu Song would have been able to hit us a lot more frequently. FVM did a lot of work, but so did SCS.

The last paragraph is simply the reiteration of what has come before, that because FVM isn't required to enable SCS anymore and hasn't kept up its stealth aspect it isn't synergistic with SCS. I reject that notion. As you've tacitly admitted SCS increases our ability to tag people with FVM (which hasn't changed), and in addition, FVM makes SCS cheaper to use and the defensive ability of SCS allows us to keep playing FVM while safe. Furthermore, the only change to SCS and FVM's interaction from the beginning is that SCS no longer needs FVM to activate. So if that small change was enough to make them non-synergistic, were they ever synergistic?

I'm not blind to the problems that Ling Qi's build has. There is a plethora. We have a lot going on in terms of projectiles, music, field creation, Aoe, summons, support, and defense.

SCS, FVM, and TRF create a powerful synergy of outlasting the opponent with a strong defense while slowly whittling them away with strong debuffs and qi drain. There is very little thematic synergy, but narratively and mechanically it has proven to be a powerful synergistic combo.
 
I think the essential problem is that we're being pulled in two different directions by our role in combat and our specialty out of combat, and it's to the detriment of some things that don't agree between those.

In Combat: Defensive Support
In combat we have taken a defensive support role mostly at the behest of FVM, an excellent defensive supporting art. We establish large fields that hamper our opponents and debuff/drain them into helplessness. We're optimally configured to fight many weaker opponents at once doing this, and favor a strategy of attrition, slowly and reliably wearing down the opposition.

Defensively, this strategy favors consistency, surviving a few hard rounds with some kind of ablative defense until the clean up stage of battle is reached and defense becomes irrelevant. Herein lies a lot of the reason why TRF rose to such a prominent position: its soak based defense is a reliable defense in this mode, and reliable defense and attrition go hand in hand.

On the subject of stealth, while our large fields do encourage others to be stealthy, as the source of the field our general position is actually somewhat obvious even if the fine grained detail of where we might be is not. Therefore in combat we're losing the strategic benefit of stealth right off the bat and keeping only the tactical benefit.

Out of Combat: Stealth Rogue
Juxtaposing this, out of combat our competencies lie in the area of basically being a stealthy rogue who breaks into places and steals shit. This was originally due to our background skills and inclinations, but SCS has also been a helpful art in this regard, especially for infiltration. Earlier @yrsillar mentioned Han Fang as an "assassin" on the Discord, and this is the combat role that these competencies generally encourage instead of the one we have taken. Assassins generally deliver a lot of immediate damage to specific weaker opponents very quickly and by surprise. They are very comfortable punching up at stronger opponents, especially in a many vs. one, and dislike being the focus of enemy aggro.

Defensively, assassins like all-or-nothing dodge and all-or-nothing stealth. Since they often dedicate more resources to offense than defense, and additionally often punch up, reliable defenses will never be invested high enough to be useful, and without being "risky" on defense their defenses will just not be efficient enough. Additionally with others taking the brunt of the aggro and/or fights being very quick they hope not to have their defenses tested again and again and again, and they don't like getting into many-vs-them situations where a number of opponents per round will test their risky defense. SCS obviously is an art suited to this kind of defense, and both normal stealth in combat and stacked filters (from PLR, and amusingly FVM) are the sorts of additional layers of defenses like this want.

So I think the main issue is that our job is telling us to be Spymaster, and the way we have of doing that is being a stealth rogue, but in combat we are not a stealth rogue assassin at all, but a defensive support. This means when we are trying to fight in combat our Roguey arts aren't the most appropriate type of defense, which ties into the fundamental conflict we've been having between TRF and SCS aka Soak vs Dodge.
 
My concerns are deeper than the interactions of two of our arts, per se. So. Hm. It's difficult to say, because we don't have the clearest idea of what other cultivators are capable of, but it appears that in general, cultivators from established disciplines have 2-3 core Arts which synergize with their Cultivation Arts to create a signature style or approach or theory of combat that acts as their bedrock while they feel out other possibilities. Adding, mixing, swapping, and removing other bits while maintaining a seed ethos.

Gu Xiulan has overlapping elemental offense with a Cultivation Art that lets her burn hot; Bai Meizhen very early on dsiplayed high-synergy between her fear effects that slowed enemies from fleeing and debuffed all their actions unless they hit her, which baited them into her counter-attack mantle art; Sun Liling's spear weakens the enemy while empowering her armor which sprouts extra pointy bits that pin the enemy so she can spear them better, also she has go-fast; Han Jian has powerful support paired with good single-target attacks that cut through defenses, which fits him being prepared as a general; Hong Lin had heavy-hitting melee and dash movement to use it. I'm stretching no, but like I said, we mostly have insights into a few people, but it's not a benefit restricted to Ducal scions by any means(even if they're a step above).

FVM, SCS, and EPC are Ling Qi's core, most signature Arts. FSS and TRF are up there too, and they're solid adds, but if we're talking the nidus of Ling Qi's cultivation career and what should form the fundamentals of her combat style, it's those three Arts. The common theme is stealth, the clear strategy is hiding and harassing the enemy, but that's never really solidified as a reliable go-to strategy. It hasn't been a core competence, and it's consistently driven us to branch out in... sometimes unreliable, and ultimately unsustainable, ways. What this means is Ling Qi's had to pick up other things to form a baseline, and bluntly we've made some mistakes there, but in practical terms it also means that our foundation is a lot less secure than it feels like it should be with an Art trio that was curated for us, moving forwards.

The concern is the shakiness of our base while correcting some of our less stellar build decisions. We don't, under the current system at least, have a strong core competence to rely on while straining the good from the chaotic goop of the rest of our build. It's a disadvantage which should exist for Ling Qi to some extent due to her background, but that we're on the path to get hit by harder than can be justified based on the source of our core Arts, and the fact that we received the trio together, sold to us as a collaborative set.

Meanwhile, others aren't only insulated from much of the risks of experimentation, they're also reliably building on their core competencies with highly curated successor Arts which simply pick up where the old one left off and work from day one with no dead time. We, frankly, don't have the time to break in new Arts. They'll have to work right from right when we get them, or there's no viable competition with the denizens of the Inner Sect. Thankfully, I don't think this is a major risk; Arts in Green have been pretty immediately useful for the most part, from the two examples we've had.


This? Looks like the opposite of what others are doing in Green, almost. I don't think strong specialization of this nature, of a signature Art, quite accomplishes addressing where the fault is in having an underperforming signature Art. Pivoting so narrowly risks cleaving open huge gaps in our other side, which is what signature Arts are there to not do. Dodging, movement, and stealth are all kind of thematic and practical core competencies of Ling Qi, and leaving any by the wayside would be fairly crippling. Granted, PLR exists, but we arguably shouldn't be allowed to choose a successor that undercuts foundational competencies reinforced by our Cultivation Art(EPC) itself. It starts toeing into awkward narrative territory where we, for example, accepted a job as a spy mistress and then progressively got worse at it for unclear reasons. It's anti-cultivator, at least at our level of development. The foundation is still being built, it's a tad early to be hacking chunks of it off. We need choices that reinforce themes, not ones that pinball us between them.


So. Yeah. These are the structural issues as I see them. It's not just a matter of how two or three Arts interact, but the benefits their interactions are supposed to be bringing to our cultivation path as a whole by acting as a reliable anchor.

I think that you bring up some great points with art interactions. There is a point I would like to look at though. You have stated that FVM and SCS are meant to work together because we received them together. I would question this.

While FVM was supposed to support SCS in the early stages so it wasn't just useless in the early stages there has not been very much internal synergies as you pointed out. FVM doesn't have anything that supports SCS first strike bonus. SCS doesn't decrease perception. I think that is ok. They were given to us not because they combined well with each other but because they are solid and easy first steps down a really hard element dark. A babies first steps as it were. We know from descriptions in game that dark is a rare element. We have only really seen clans that specialize in dark. I do not remember seeing anyone that went "yah dark is my choice for an element." I am fairly confident in saying that dark has some pitfalls and hurdles that make it really hard for people without a support structure to learn how to use that element.

I believe that having FVM and SCS was to ease us into the dark element and was really important in order to not go crazy and just try and steal from everyone all the time. They are not meant to be super synergistic together. Just because we receive somethings together does not mean that they are meant to be used together.

However green is the stage in which the cultivator starts to warp arts to them. We see this when we gained that defense bonus from TRF. I have full confidence that as we continue to explore dark arts and put FVM and SCS into our domain they will change and become more and more synergistic together with all of our other arts that we keep.

Green is a time to explore and establish. We are in a new world and Ling Qi still has no idea of what is going on and what to do next. Our first build may look like a sticky hot mess, and it is, but that doesn't mean that it won't turn in a well oiled machine filled with internal synergies and clear goals for fights that can be achieved at nearly every match. We have a very solid end game for our conflicts. I fully believe that as we progress through green and find new arts and twist the arts we want to keep towards synergies with each other that a consistent and stable path towards that end game will come about.
 
Yeah, our build has issues, genuine ones. But they're symptoms of yrsillar designing them stage by stage, and the original intents get diluted over time.

It's an issue he's aware of, and has committed to correcting.

So why is it something we need to castigate ourselves over? That NPCs have perfect art suites compared to our hot mess doesn't mean we should have done nothing to compete because a perfectly curated package didn't fall in our laps.

Just have some faith that we're not going to be crippled by acknowledged, mechanics side issues.
 
Didn't Cai primarily want us for our stealth shenanigans? So we should at least keep up in that department even if we don't want to focus on it.
 
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I think the essential problem is that we're being pulled in two different directions by our role in combat and our specialty out of combat, and it's to the detriment of some things that don't agree between those.

In Combat: Defensive Support
In combat we have taken a defensive support role mostly at the behest of FVM, an excellent defensive supporting art. We establish large fields that hamper our opponents and debuff/drain them into helplessness. We're optimally configured to fight many weaker opponents at once doing this, and favor a strategy of attrition, slowly and reliably wearing down the opposition.

Defensively, this strategy favors consistency, surviving a few hard rounds with some kind of ablative defense until the clean up stage of battle is reached and defense becomes irrelevant. Herein lies a lot of the reason why TRF rose to such a prominent position: its soak based defense is a reliable defense in this mode, and reliable defense and attrition go hand in hand.

On the subject of stealth, while our large fields do encourage others to be stealthy, as the source of the field our general position is actually somewhat obvious even if the fine grained detail of where we might be is not. Therefore in combat we're losing the strategic benefit of stealth right off the bat and keeping only the tactical benefit.

Out of Combat: Stealth Rogue
Juxtaposing this, out of combat our competencies lie in the area of basically being a stealthy rogue who breaks into places and steals shit. This was originally due to our background skills and inclinations, but SCS has also been a helpful art in this regard, especially for infiltration. Earlier @yrsillar mentioned Han Fang as an "assassin" on the Discord, and this is the combat role that these competencies generally encourage instead of the one we have taken. Assassins generally deliver a lot of immediate damage to specific weaker opponents very quickly and by surprise. They are very comfortable punching up at stronger opponents, especially in a many vs. one, and dislike being the focus of enemy aggro.

Defensively, assassins like all-or-nothing dodge and all-or-nothing stealth. Since they often dedicate more resources to offense than defense, and additionally often punch up, reliable defenses will never be invested high enough to be useful, and without being "risky" on defense their defenses will just not be efficient enough. Additionally with others taking the brunt of the aggro and/or fights being very quick they hope not to have their defenses tested again and again and again, and they don't like getting into many-vs-them situations where a number of opponents per round will test their risky defense. SCS obviously is an art suited to this kind of defense, and both normal stealth in combat and stacked filters (from PLR, and amusingly FVM) are the sorts of additional layers of defenses like this want.

So I think the main issue is that our job is telling us to be Spymaster, and the way we have of doing that is being a stealth rogue, but in combat we are not a stealth rogue assassin at all, but a defensive support. This means when we are trying to fight in combat our Roguey arts aren't the most appropriate type of defense, which ties into the fundamental conflict we've been having between TRF and SCS aka Soak vs Dodge.
Good post, but two critiques.

FVM isn't a particularly defensive support art. It provides a little bit of defense, but that never scaled as high as the offensive portions of the Art did, and the Art even hinders enemy defenses more than their offense. It's traditionally been slow at causing direct harm to the enemy which makes defense a high priority, but by itself it contributes little to this consideration. FVM, as it currently sits, is a primarily offensive support Art that balances at the edge of being an attack Art.

Second, part of the issue is that FVM doesn't support our out-of-combat stealth efforts, which has always been awkward from a numbers/balance perspective. We've not actually been a particularly amazing stealth user out of combat due to this. The fact that FVM gives stealth dice at all -and from the start- must also mean that it was always intended to support in-combat stealth efforts, by the very nature of its quite obvious occlusion. FVM's nature making it ill-suited to combat stealth would mean the Art itself is fundamentally incoherent.

I think that you bring up some great points with art interactions. There is a point I would like to look at though. You have stated that FVM and SCS are meant to work together because we received them together. I would question this.

While FVM was supposed to support SCS in the early stages so it wasn't just useless in the early stages there has not been very much internal synergies as you pointed out. FVM doesn't have anything that supports SCS first strike bonus. SCS doesn't decrease perception. I think that is ok. They were given to us not because they combined well with each other but because they are solid and easy first steps down a really hard element dark. A babies first steps as it were. We know from descriptions in game that dark is a rare element. We have only really seen clans that specialize in dark. I do not remember seeing anyone that went "yah dark is my choice for an element." I am fairly confident in saying that dark has some pitfalls and hurdles that make it really hard for people without a support structure to learn how to use that element.

I believe that having FVM and SCS was to ease us into the dark element and was really important in order to not go crazy and just try and steal from everyone all the time. They are not meant to be super synergistic together. Just because we receive somethings together does not mean that they are meant to be used together.

However green is the stage in which the cultivator starts to warp arts to them. We see this when we gained that defense bonus from TRF. I have full confidence that as we continue to explore dark arts and put FVM and SCS into our domain they will change and become more and more synergistic together with all of our other arts that we keep.

Green is a time to explore and establish. We are in a new world and Ling Qi still has no idea of what is going on and what to do next. Our first build may look like a sticky hot mess, and it is, but that doesn't mean that it won't turn in a well oiled machine filled with internal synergies and clear goals for fights that can be achieved at nearly every match. We have a very solid end game for our conflicts. I fully believe that as we progress through green and find new arts and twist the arts we want to keep towards synergies with each other that a consistent and stable path towards that end game will come about.
Two issues with this post as well.

First, if we follow your logic that Darkness Arts are rare, dangerous to learn, and require a safe support structure to master, then it would make less sense for the Arts to not be intended as synergistic. If Darkness Arts are rare, why would they give us a pair that don't fit particularly well together? What's the point of starting us on an elemental path that we will find above-average difficulty adding to in a coherent fashion? The logic doesn't work, it would basically be sabotage. Further, there's nothing about introducing Ling Qi to Darkness in baby steps that requires the Arts to not have close synergy. That purpose isn't served by the claimed means. This logic simply doesn't hold up.

Second, last time we were told, slotting Arts to our Domain has no effect on the Art itself. None. Zero. We can alter Arts, or will be able to in a few stages, but Domain slotting has absolutely nothing to do with that process. The main issue with relying on extensive Art augmentation is, well, Ling Qi won't be good at it compared to the people who designed the Arts we'll have access to in the Inner Sect, and there's no indication that it would be any time saver. Hammering Arts into a shape we like is no guarantee to be any better or faster than simply finding Arts that suite our needs. It's quite probably less effective. We're not at the stage, and with the lack of relevant resources, that extensive Art crafting makes sense for Ling Qi.

And the fact that it's necessary isn't changed. I believe that when we received Arts from a Great Spirit patron, they were intended as a holistically sound set. They haven't been. This is a discrepancy with pretty significant knock-on effects. One that I'm also certain will be addressed in some way moving forwards. But to do that, it needs to be acknowledged on some level, instead of plastered over.

edit: had dropped some words
 
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My concerns are deeper than the interactions of two of our arts, per se. So. Hm. It's difficult to say, because we don't have the clearest idea of what other cultivators are capable of, but it appears that in general, cultivators from established disciplines have 2-3 core Arts which synergize with their Cultivation Arts to create a signature style or approach or theory of combat that acts as their bedrock while they feel out other possibilities. Adding, mixing, swapping, and removing other bits while maintaining a seed ethos.

Gu Xiulan has overlapping elemental offense with a Cultivation Art that lets her burn hot; Bai Meizhen very early on dsiplayed high-synergy between her fear effects that slowed enemies from fleeing and debuffed all their actions unless they hit her, which baited them into her counter-attack mantle art; Sun Liling's spear weakens the enemy while empowering her armor which sprouts extra pointy bits that pin the enemy so she can spear them better, also she has go-fast; Han Jian has powerful support paired with good single-target attacks that cut through defenses, which fits him being prepared as a general; Hong Lin had heavy-hitting melee and dash movement to use it. I'm stretching no, but like I said, we mostly have insights into a few people, but it's not a benefit restricted to Ducal scions by any means(even if they're a step above).

FVM, SCS, and EPC are Ling Qi's core, most signature Arts. FSS and TRF are up there too, and they're solid adds, but if we're talking the nidus of Ling Qi's cultivation career and what should form the fundamentals of her combat style, it's those three Arts. The common theme is stealth, the clear strategy is hiding and harassing the enemy, but that's never really solidified as a reliable go-to strategy. It hasn't been a core competence, and it's consistently driven us to branch out in... sometimes unreliable, and ultimately unsustainable, ways. What this means is Ling Qi's had to pick up other things to form a baseline, and bluntly we've made some mistakes there, but in practical terms it also means that our foundation is a lot less secure than it feels like it should be with an Art trio that was curated for us, moving forwards.

The concern is the shakiness of our base while correcting some of our less stellar build decisions. We don't, under the current system at least, have a strong core competence to rely on while straining the good from the chaotic goop of the rest of our build. It's a disadvantage which should exist for Ling Qi to some extent due to her background, but that we're on the path to get hit by harder than can be justified based on the source of our core Arts, and the fact that we received the trio together, sold to us as a collaborative set.

Meanwhile, others aren't only insulated from much of the risks of experimentation, they're also reliably building on their core competencies with highly curated successor Arts which simply pick up where the old one left off and work from day one with no dead time. We, frankly, don't have the time to break in new Arts. They'll have to work right from right when we get them, or there's no viable competition with the denizens of the Inner Sect. Thankfully, I don't think this is a major risk; Arts in Green have been pretty immediately useful for the most part, from the two examples we've had.
While I think you have valid concerns about how to strain the chaotic mush into a good foundation, I'm going to disagree with you on a foundational principle that you've put forth, and that is what our cultivation art should be doing in combat.

You've claimed that our cultivation art is supposed to be a core component of our combat. I disagree. I believe that whether or not the cultivation art synergizes with our combat style is purely dependent on what the cultivation art is. The primary purpose of the cultivation art is too assist a cultivatior in cultivation, it's why out of all the other arts they have a unique moniker and unique rules (regardless of whether you think the rules should be there). Anything else they do is incidental to assisting the cultivator in cultivating. It would be extremely hard to synergize a social cultivation art with going out and being in combat, or a cultivation art that is purely focused on foundational aspects of something (such as Argent Soul).

Out of all the cultivation arts in the Argent Sect, EPC is special because it provides a direct, if inconsistent, line of communication with Greater Spirits. Furthermore, it continues to specialize as we progress through it. However, so far what it has specialized in is more non-combat. It has stealth, yes, and perception, which can both be very useful in combat, but it rewards us for going out and using that stealth and perception to find and retrieve hidden information without people knowing that we did so, something that doesn't mesh well with combat.

I don't think that trying to mesh EPC with our combat style is the appropriate way to think about cultivation arts, and I think it could actually be detrimental by trying to find synergies in an art for combat when it doesn't direct itself towards combat. EPC puts us on a very specific path that is independent of combat and leans more towards being sneaking in the gathering of information.

And if we remove EPC from consideration for synergies for combat... then we can select two aspects of our combat that works really well for us. Having a strong defense and strong spiritual attacks through expression. Using that as a guideline, we can strain around 5 to 6 arts from our build creating a core of 4 arts that is supported by another 2. And those 6 arts create a unique style of combat that we haven't seen in the Argent Sect outside of ourselves.

Eventually, EPC might assist us in our spiritual attacks through a connection with the Dreaming Moon, but for now I don't think we should consider it when contemplating how to best strain our build and the combat style we want to go for.
 
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