Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

Sun Liling has at least two ranged attacks. One is an explodey AoE, remember?

Anyway, @yrsillar I've been thinking about the fight and I have two... and a half main concerns.

The first is the big one, and it's the use of PLR in the fight. Ling Qi kept the whole thing till the very end of the fight, and it doesn't seem to make sense on, well, multiple levels. The plan that won was more or less Mists - > Defenses -> Worms + Buff -> Lunatic Whirl. IPF is a defensive technique, and since LW requires it to be active in the field, the logical move was to deploy IPF during that second phase, before the worms, so that it would benefit us for most of the fight and Ling Qi would be able to drop the capstone technique of her plan at a moment's notice. Two details of the fight make this especially troublesome: Ji Rong was managing to punch through our defenses even when they were up, and Ling Qi should have been able to estimate what kind of heat he was bringing... to her face, and the only time Ling Qi totally avoided damage was when she did eventually use IPF.

Every viewer of the fight should be wondering why we didn't deploy something useful like that earlier, and when we did use it, there was zero reason to. PLR is our slowest art, and Ji Rong was so weakened that he passed out once we used it... so we could have just frozen him again and won that way. Ling Qi took longer to do a thing worse for unclear reasons. This is the kind of thing that not being too explicit in plans was supposed to prevent, but it looks like it was the direct cause here. No offense, but you made Ling Qi look like an idiot in front of the audience. This really sucks because this was our best opportunity to really impress while fighting a peer, and especially to showcase PLR. It's an art that will have 0 effect on Sun Liling, to the point that its slowness means we can't even afford to bring it out, so this was the biggest best chance. In all, a serious, though not irrecoverable, blow to Ling Qi's long-term strategic social goals.

Second issue is pacing and sense of time. Contrast the fight with Chu Song with this one and things look really weird. Chu Song took 'minutes' from refusing to concede while already beat to Ling Qi downing her, and we were using our freezing attacks. This whole fight seems to have taken maybe 5 minutes in total. I get that a lot of this is probably conflicts between mechanics and narrative, but it creates a strong sense of dissonance towards Ling Qi's abilities and what she can accomplish in a given period of time. Or it means that she was explicitly and deliberately dragging out the Chu Song fight in order to be deliberately cruel, because even playing things defensively cannot account for the discrepancy in pace. Ling Qi needs to be able to consistently accomplish roughly the same amount of Stuff in a given span of time if we're to make plans, especially in the narrative system we're moving into in the sequel.

The half of an issue is debuffs on Ling Qi were mentioned, but no mention of Sixiang doing anything about them, which is mildly jarring given it's the only thing the moon maiden does, for a not insignificant chunk of our qi reserves. I get how s/he just didn't fit into the narrative though. I get the impression this fight could have used another day of polishing. We're not that impatient, you know? I'd rather wait another couple days while the seems get ironed out.

While Ling Qi did not use her arts as effectively as she could if the tread micromanaged her, neither did Ji Rong.
Both used their arts with the skill yrsillar has in the system which matches that both should be roughly equal in knowledge using their arts.

If Ling Qi were to fight mechanically optimally then Ji Rong would also have to do so.
So first yrsillar would need to exactly stat out his entire art suit of ~10 arts with passives and 30+ techniques and balance them all.
Second he would need to spend as much time as the tread on optimizing technique usage or recruit a set of players to control Ji Rong.
Third he would need to turn the entire thing into a readable story.

This could easily add a week to the update.
And for me such a thing would also kill motivation.

The problem is that system complexity grows linearly with amount of cultivation into arts.
There are so many techniques that choosing a optimal usage becomes difficult.
And the full stat sheet of a enemy cultivator is to much work to create so he has to approximate.
 
I would dispute three assumptions here:

(1) We are not guaranteed to lose. There's many a slip twixt cup and lip. If we can make a plan to move from 1% to win to 5% to win I think it's worthwhile. Crits happen.

(2) A kilometer in distance gives us more than one turn to prepare. Especially since we can move immediately after using the talisman, meaning that the closing speed will be limited to Liling's speed advantage over us, not just her raw speed.

(3) Even if Liling can buff beyond what we can buff, it's better for us that the buffing happen at a civilized distance than the buffing happen while she is stabbing us in the face. We don't have the option of a buff-free fight.
Fundamentally, Lilings top end exceeds ours just by scaling from Meizhen. Ergo, our best bet is to try and get good shots in before that gap grows.

Using the escape talisman isnt improving our odds.

Its throwing away our 5% chance in the hopes of eking out a 1% chance of beating her in a fair fight.

Gonna be honest, I stopped reading right here. This is a bad attitude to take. If you believe you can't win, you won't. We're cultivators. Our entire life is a struggle against the will of the heavens. We're following Cai. We're going to face worse odds than this. If we falter now, if we don't have a will to win now, when we have a safety net, when will we? As long as your logic is based on "WE'RE GOING TO LOSE AND THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO ABOUT IT!" we aren't going to see eye to eye.
You dont have a gameplan for victory though.

You have an idea for maxing out Ling Qis dice and a rationalization for why that ought to be enough. There are no further steps. No win condition or how to obtain it. Yes, we can get lucky.

But why would you think that a plan can be made on such a vague and uncertain premise as that?

If we make the assumption that Sun's spirit starts underground in it's ambush form, which given the last two fights seems like an assumption I can make, then a basic idea can be made. This is to separate Sun from her spirit. Nothing we know of has unlimited range so all the buffs that the spirit gives can be negated if distance is created between the two. We have yet to see the spirit use a movement art. Therefore it may be slower than Sun. However if it uses a movement art to keep up with Sun's chase then that is good information for our friends and completes our stated goal. If it the spirit does not have a movement art and distance is created then Sun may use another self buff art that has been kept secret so far. This is also good information and completes our stated goal. Now how do we do this?

Step 1: Trigger Grinning Crescent Dancer as our instant
Step 2: Begin movement phase by going as far backwards as possible to create space away from ambush and Sun
Step 3: Trigger Mist of the Vale expanded to 100 meters as main action; this is to hope to get decrease the dice thrown at us and increase the amount of times she has to make that delicious perception check while racing towards us.
Running away just gives Liling time to get her buff cycle going, and she already is plenty fast. Plus, under that scenario she's going to score a hit from Gae Bolg and have Dhartiris bonuses to tracking on hand so the perception checks wont be doing much for us.

Step 6: Continue moving in away from Sun but shifting as to form a spiral away from Sun's beginning point; this is to force Sun to change directions often(will likely make no difference but every variable we add increases the chance of a mistake) and keep her spirit in a position where it could act yet increasing the distance between Sun and her spirit.
Step 7: After several revolutions of the spiral express Zhengui in order to tag team Sun (this is likely to make little difference but buy some more turns for a mistake to happen); Sun's spirit seems really interested in eating other spirits and by expressing Zhengui we force it to make a choice, either it advances quickly to try and get food or it sits still or it advances slowly. If it sits still then we have a numbers advantage which will help us force Sun to revel techs or if it advances quickly then we revel it's movement tech or if it advances slowly we revel that it likely does not have a movement tech. All of this is good information and completes our stated goal.
This all relies on the assumption that Liling cant close the distance on us ordinarily, which simply isnt a safe bet to make.

Additionally, we saw her break through Shen Hus defensive domain weapon in three turns of attacks (Gae Bolg, two turns of stalling), when it absorbed far more of our own strikes to it. If we go into the match without an actual gameplan to keep her from murderblending us in the first two turns we're fucked.

In that regard, the talisman plan is actually superior to your approach. It keeps us from dying and goes for optimal dice, even if it lacks an actual win condition to pursue.
 
While Ling Qi did not use her arts as effectively as she could if the tread micromanaged her, neither did Ji Rong.
Both used their arts with the skill yrsillar has in the system which matches that both should be roughly equal in knowledge using their arts.

If Ling Qi were to fight mechanically optimally then Ji Rong would also have to do so.
So first yrsillar would need to exactly stat out his entire art suit of ~10 arts with passives and 30+ techniques and balance them all.
Second he would need to spend as much time as the tread on optimizing technique usage or recruit a set of players to control Ji Rong.
Third he would need to turn the entire thing into a readable story.

This could easily add a week to the update.
And for me such a thing would also kill motivation.

The problem is that system complexity grows linearly with amount of cultivation into arts.
There are so many techniques that choosing a optimal usage becomes difficult.
And the full stat sheet of a enemy cultivator is to much work to create so he has to approximate.
Uh, how do you know this? Your argument relies on Ji Rong's abilities being a black box, so how can you tell that he used his abilities suboptimally? You have no way of knowing that it's true, and it's logically inconsistent to claim that knowledge.

I'm not complaining that Ling Qi didn't perfectly optimize her every move in the precisely ideal combinations. The issue is she didn't use a defensive technique her finisher relied on until after the defensive and ambush phases of the plan, while she was tanking hits the whole time, while also delaying the use of the finisher during the phase of the plan that she wants to finisherize him. I'm noting that Ling Qi's use of PLR was significantly incongruous with the plan that the players voted on and didn't meet basic tactical proficiency standards. By all rights, Xin is going to chastise Ling Qi for her foolishness, and it sucks because it just makes no sense. Throwing up illusions to make distance when some dude is in your face punching it isn't some kind of tactical masterstroke- using the art should have been basic instinct regardless of the logical necessity of its use at that point to cleave to the plan we voted on.

It was a cool fight, but there's some real fridge logic issues with it. The issues are fundamentally narrative, not mechanical.
 
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Uh, how do you know this? Your argument relies on Ji Rong's abilities being a black box, so how can you tell that he used his abilities suboptimally? You have no way of knowing that it's true, and it's logically inconsistent to claim that knowledge.

I'm not complaining that Ling Qi didn't perfectly optimize her every move in the precisely ideal combinations. The issue is she didn't use a defensive technique her finisher relied on until after the defensive and ambush phases of the plan, while she was tanking hits the whole time, while also delaying the use of the finisher during the phase of the plan that she wants to finisherize him. I'm noting that Ling Qi's use of PLR was significantly incongruous with the plan that the players voted on and didn't meet basic tactical proficiency standards. By all rights, Xin is going to chastise Ling Qi for her foolishness, and it sucks because it just makes no sense. Throwing up illusions to make distance when some dude is in your face punching it isn't some kind of tactical masterstroke- using the art should have been basic instinct regardless of the logical necessity of its use at that point to cleave to the plan we voted on.

It was a cool fight, but there's some real fridge logic issues with it.
Per yrsillar, the fight as written is not precisely the fight as rolled.

The correct tactical decisions could have been made, and simply skimmed over or rearranged to avoid making the narrative a bit too much of a straight back and forth, "he did x she did y he did z she did a...".

Not to say that the feeling that Ling Qi isn't being portrayed as tactically ingenius in the moment as some might prefer, simply that we are not seeing the exact by play.

I personally dislike straight micromanagement of a quest PC by the thread and am pleased with the end result.
 
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Per yrsillar, the fight as written is not precisely the fight as rolled.

The correct tactical decisions could have been made, and simply skimmed over or rearranged to avoid making the narrative a bit too much of a straight back and forth, "he did x she did y he did z she did a...".

Not to say that the feeling that Ling Qi isn't being portrayed as tactically ingenius in the moment as some might prefer, simply that we are not seeing the exact by play.

I personally dislike straight micromanagement of a quest PC by the thread and am pleased with the end result.
Man, we're talking about a gap of nearly the entire fight in the technique's use that makes her look like a bit of a dolt because it left her comparatively open to attack and her finishing move sluggish. There's no benefit to it narratively. If we had used it and it wasn't effective, it would only heighten the tension by making Ji Rong look more impressive, and it's not like the dancing pixies flying around would have interfered with the other description going on. No, it's really unlikely yrsillar swapped things around in the way you're suggesting.
 
Uh, how do you know this? Your argument relies on Ji Rong's abilities being a black box, so how can you tell that he used his abilities suboptimally? You have no way of knowing that it's true, and it's logically inconsistent to claim that knowledge.

I'm not complaining that Ling Qi didn't perfectly optimize her every move in the precisely ideal combinations. The issue is she didn't use a defensive technique her finisher relied on until after the defensive and ambush phases of the plan, while she was tanking hits the whole time, while also delaying the use of the finisher during the phase of the plan that she wants to finisherize him. I'm noting that Ling Qi's use of PLR was significantly incongruous with the plan that the players voted on and didn't meet basic tactical proficiency standards. By all rights, Xin is going to chastise Ling Qi for her foolishness, and it sucks because it just makes no sense. Throwing up illusions to make distance when some dude is in your face punching it isn't some kind of tactical masterstroke- using the art should have been basic instinct regardless of the logical necessity of its use at that point to cleave to the plan we voted on.

It was a cool fight, but there's some real fridge logic issues with it.

The main point is that is that Ji Rong was played using the same level of system skill as Ling Qi did.
Now he probably did not have the entire arts set stated out so there never was the same level of optimization possible.
In return I don't think yrsillar really did the math how powerful a focused face puncher build should be in it's focus.

This is all just a hypothesis unrelated to main argument.

Assuming that most cultivators have one useful bound spirit, any multi-target passive or technique has at-least two targets in most fights.
And assuming that single target techniques are not a sub-optimal in almost any situation and are better in direct cultivator vs cultivator (+spirits) fights.
Then passives or techniques that only have a single target should be over twice as strong.

Now there are exceptions for things like friendly fire and benefits of defeat in detail.
And not necessarily double the dice as dice pools are not linear in effect.

I'll concede that the ending is a bit of, after we got PLR to hit, Ji Rong should have been down in a few turns.
I read that as the fight being effectively over and the dice rolls stopped there, just summarizing the forgone conclusion as a few minutes.
 
Alright, locking up. Can I get the tally?

I'll go back and poke at the previous update a bit too, try to improve the issues pointed out.
Here you go.
 
Gonna be honest, I stopped reading right here. This is a bad attitude to take. If you believe you can't win, you won't. We're cultivators. Our entire life is a struggle against the will of the heavens. We're following Cai. We're going to face worse odds than this. If we falter now, if we don't have a will to win now, when we have a safety net, when will we? As long as your logic is based on "WE'RE GOING TO LOSE AND THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO ABOUT IT!" we aren't going to see eye to eye.
Self awareness is also pretty important for a cultivator, and one thing that we learnt from that spar with Meizhen is not to not grow overconfident.

By all accounts we can give Sun Liling a good fight, and make her bleed for a victory. But it is in no way giving up to assume we're going to lose the match, when the fact that we can even think about matching her considering our background is astounding.

Believing in something hard enough doesn't mean you'll achieve it, and in fact shouldn't be enough on it's own.

And besides, no-one ever said we didn't want Ling Qi putting her heart and soul into trying to win. It's just winning for us means forcing Sun to reveal her trump cards ahead of her fight with Meizhen.
 
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Self awareness is also pretty important for a cultivator, and one thing that we learnt from that spar with Meizhen is not to not grow overconfident.

By all accounts we can give Sun Liking a good fight, and make her bleed for a victory. But it is in no way giving up to assume we're going to lose the match, when the fact that we can even think about matching her considering our background is astounding.

Believing in something hard enough doesn't mean you'll achieve it, and in fact shouldn't be enough on it's own.

And besides, no-one ever said we didn't want Ling Qi putting her heart and soul into trying to win. It's just winning for us means forcing Sun to reveal her trump cards ahead of her fight with Meizhen.
Sometimes winning is just making the other guy lose.

And there's little doubt to be had that for Sun Liling a defeat at Meizhens hands is, on all levels, definitely losing.
 
Ok, I've been looking back at the Qi card Cai gave us and I think it might be the key to this fight. On a successful clash it dispels a defensive technique, deals one damage and prevents that technique from being reactivated next turn, then gives us a 6 dice bonus on a spiritual attack next turn.

The key point here is that Liling's defensive armour is also key to her offense, with the extra arms and weapons they produce being a great part of it.

This means that we could severely weaken her for a turn (and force her to re-establish her armour, costing her moves and qi). If we have had the 2 turns to establish pressure crack and spring's end aria we can hit pretty high dice, and if it goes through we could use hoarfrost caress at massive spike to actually start the debuff train on our target (dharti or Liling, possibly Liling to slow down her mulching us/recovery).

If Liling had base defences about 10 dice higher than us it might also give the horror an even chance to hit with scalding streams, pressure crack and the multi-attacker penalty.

If we can land it(a big if I know) this could be our key to victory, or at least forcing Liling to reach deeply into her bag of tricks and giving us (and Cai) some nice face.
 
Considering buff cycles, we don't know If Sun Liling have any permament buffs like Traveler's End, if she don't it is our advantage, if she do have one it is usefull information for Meizhen.

Travelers End: oooo
Cost: 8 Qi
In a distant, misty valley, far from the works of mankind, a traveler completed a melody and offered it too the moon, the final notes echoing long after his last breath. This melody is but a shadow of that… but even shadows hold power. Only usable if all other Forgotten Vale Melody techniques are active. Once activated, the mist no longer fades, even if the user ceases playing. In addition, attempts to dispel any Forgotten Vale techniques must dispel Travelers End, first and separately, even if it would otherwise dispel multiple techniques. While Travelers End is active, the qi loss from Elegy is increased by two, and the damage from Dissonance becomes semi perfect.
 
Well, thats another benefit to Ganking Dharitri off the bat:

She really is a key facet to Lilings build as presented, by serving as a sustainability safety net and all around combat multiplier. By removing her from the equation observers can see what her core fighting style looks like, all we have to do is drag it out of her.

Combining Renxiangs Qi Card tech with Breath of Stygian Depths can definitely throw off Lilings armor techs as well. Same with dropping worms on her. Can she hit multiple targets with her dance, or just one?

Theres just a lot of stuff we can tease out when the safety net Dharitri represents is taken off the table.
 
I wouldn't mind using an escape talisman, but I think the opponents of that plan are right that using one immediately as the bout begins essentially cedes the match to Sun Liling, because SL+Dharitri has a better buff cycle than LQ+Zhengui. Has anyone considered the case where we focus on Dharitri first, then use an escape talisman to make distance, recover some of the near-crippling damage we definitely took, and avoid at least for a short time Sun Liling's revenge escalation? Is that something that could be viable?
 
I wouldn't mind using an escape talisman, but I think the opponents of that plan are right that using one immediately as the bout begins essentially cedes the match to Sun Liling, because SL+Dharitri has a better buff cycle than LQ+Zhengui. Has anyone considered the case where we focus on Dharitri first, then use an escape talisman to make distance, recover some of the near-crippling damage we definitely took, and avoid at least for a short time Sun Liling's revenge escalation? Is that something that could be viable?

Well it might be. Assuming Sun Liling doesn't take us out in the first few rounds.

And that's not something we should assume. Sun Liling is good at what she does. Monstrously good. I don't think we should rely on trying to tank her, even for a few rounds, as odds are, she'll just blow past our defenses.
 
I wouldn't mind using an escape talisman, but I think the opponents of that plan are right that using one immediately as the bout begins essentially cedes the match to Sun Liling, because SL+Dharitri has a better buff cycle than LQ+Zhengui. Has anyone considered the case where we focus on Dharitri first, then use an escape talisman to make distance, recover some of the near-crippling damage we definitely took, and avoid at least for a short time Sun Liling's revenge escalation? Is that something that could be viable?
Sun uses blood to buff. If we are away then she has to use her own blood. Something I would much prefer.

Also we don't know if she has permanent buffs.
 
The benefit of ganking Dharitri and bailing is that it allows us to disengage and prep a more advantageous battlefield where Liling is denied half her known support kit.

The idea has a very nice boss battle aesthetic to it as well

Besides, one way or another our best bet to survive is to lean on tanking. Thats not going to change whether we're tanking at the start or after blowing an escape talisman. Taking out Dharitri also has the benefit of making Lilings tracking skill actively worse, so if any approach is likely to increase our odds of surviving itll be that one
 
I wouldn't mind using an escape talisman, but I think the opponents of that plan are right that using one immediately as the bout begins essentially cedes the match to Sun Liling, because SL+Dharitri has a better buff cycle than LQ+Zhengui. Has anyone considered the case where we focus on Dharitri first, then use an escape talisman to make distance, recover some of the near-crippling damage we definitely took, and avoid at least for a short time Sun Liling's revenge escalation? Is that something that could be viable?
It seems to be relying on two assumptions:

1. Ling Qi would have to do damage to Dharitri faster than Sun Liling and Dharitri could do damage to Ling Qi.
2. Ling Qi would have to be able to hit Dharitri from turn 1, or at least target her with debuffs.

You could maybe substitute qi draining for damage, but I doubt Ling Qi can drain qi faster than she can dish out damage, even with her lackluster burst damage.

Maybe with Ossuary Horror, we can take an extra two or three hits, but that still doesn't seem to solve our damage output problem.
 
Hmmmm what would it mean, if anything, if Sun uses qi cards and escape talismans too?
That would be what we call a moral victory.

Our sliver of an iota of a chance at victory comes from the fact that Liling very badly wants to not only win but to look good doing it. Given our relative positions if we are able to make her behave cautiously and adopt conservative tactics then we've earned some polite applause from the crowd.
 
It seems to be relying on two assumptions:

1. Ling Qi would have to do damage to Dharitri faster than Sun Liling and Dharitri could do damage to Ling Qi.
2. Ling Qi would have to be able to hit Dharitri from turn 1, or at least target her with debuffs.

You could maybe substitute qi draining for damage, but I doubt Ling Qi can drain qi faster than she can dish out damage, even with her lackluster burst damage.

Maybe with Ossuary Horror, we can take an extra two or three hits, but that still doesn't seem to solve our damage output problem.
As others have mentioned, some things have to be assumed in order to gamble on a wincon in the first place.

And Hoarfrost Caress with bonus dice behind it hits very hard. Given damage negation, ablative HP, and Zhengui Healing i believe we can survive long enough to pull it off if we go Full Tank from the very start.

Erebeal already demonstrated how we'd be even more tanky than at any point prior in the Ji Rong match, and by ramping that up by Turn 2 theres a chance there to survive long enough to make those shots count.

Fundamentally, cultivation levels being equal, a bound spirit isnt going to be pound for pound more powerful than their partner. Thus, rather than leveraging that small window of opportunity on hitting Liling with a poor chance of looking good while doing it.

Why not use that chance to achieve something a bit more concrete and leverage that into even more opportunities?

No one believes that Dharitri leaving the field makes Liling stronger. At worst she'll escalate.

Which is fine, because thats what we wanted in the first place.
 
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Fundamentally, Lilings top end exceeds ours just by scaling from Meizhen. Ergo, our best bet is to try and get good shots in before that gap grows.

Using the escape talisman isnt improving our odds.

Its throwing away our 5% chance in the hopes of eking out a 1% chance of beating her in a fair fight.


You dont have a gameplan for victory though.

You have an idea for maxing out Ling Qis dice and a rationalization for why that ought to be enough. There are no further steps. No win condition or how to obtain it. Yes, we can get lucky.

But why would you think that a plan can be made on such a vague and uncertain premise as that?


Running away just gives Liling time to get her buff cycle going, and she already is plenty fast. Plus, under that scenario she's going to score a hit from Gae Bolg and have Dhartiris bonuses to tracking on hand so the perception checks wont be doing much for us.


This all relies on the assumption that Liling cant close the distance on us ordinarily, which simply isnt a safe bet to make.

Additionally, we saw her break through Shen Hus defensive domain weapon in three turns of attacks (Gae Bolg, two turns of stalling), when it absorbed far more of our own strikes to it. If we go into the match without an actual gameplan to keep her from murderblending us in the first two turns we're fucked.

In that regard, the talisman plan is actually superior to your approach. It keeps us from dying and goes for optimal dice, even if it lacks an actual win condition to pursue.

The plan relies on abusing the turn based system. If Ling Qi moves at least 20.1 meters away from Sun then Sun is forced to make another preception check. If we use a talisman this can happen too. But we just used a ton of red stones to do it. Does not seem worth it even before we add in that Sun will be buffing while moving towards us. If we are near her than that increases the chance of a slip up and Sun reveling a hidden tech. The plan I threw out tries it's best to get the spirit or Sun to reveal something. The escape talisman plan tries only to get sun to waste time moving towards is. It also wastes money.

Gonna be honest, I stopped reading right here. This is a bad attitude to take. If you believe you can't win, you won't. We're cultivators. Our entire life is a struggle against the will of the heavens. We're following Cai. We're going to face worse odds than this. If we falter now, if we don't have a will to win now, when we have a safety net, when will we? As long as your logic is based on "WE'RE GOING TO LOSE AND THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO ABOUT IT!" we aren't going to see eye to eye.

The sheer arrogance that you have. Where is your plan to win? How are you going to get the 20+ dice we need to give us good odds of winning? All I have seen from you is a vague idea that does not change the odds and the belief that "IF WE CLOSE OUR EYES AND HOPE REALLY HARD WE WILL WIN." Give us a plan that abuses the system. Give us a plan a plan that gives a chance of victory. Excuse me if I don't want to support a plan that throws money down a hole and screams "now we have a chance." If you don't have a plan that can change the odds in a statistically significant way then maybe you need to start looking at other goals and starting reading others posts.
 
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