Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

Given the complete lack of this there must be some reason this is not the case. Maybe that sort of mind control damages your ability to cultivate? Cultivation is all about becoming more yourself. If someone else is influencing you that strongly it might hurt your progress.

I'm not talking about any kind of mind control. I'm talking about having supernaturally competent parents and coaches that can simply reliably manage what purely mortal parents can do (look at successful classical musicians and athletes in sports like tennis or swimming). Cultivation is about becoming more something, but your character is strongly determined by parental and peer influences as a child, which a clan can control.

The complete lack of it in the sect isn't strong evidence that it doesn't exist. As I say at the bottom of my post, it's just as much evidence that the kind of people that benefit from that don't get sent to a sect. It all makes sense if most of the nobles we're seeing are the failures and drop outs from the clan programmes, the ones who don't respond to the clans' curricula and weren't worth the opportunity cost in terms of scarce resources like adult time to motivate to do better. The Monsters are exceptions to this for various reasons (CRX, for example, because this is part of her tailored motivational package).
 
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I'm pretty sure that White Rooms predate Shenhua, so probably aren't compromised.
Uh, as far as I'm aware they're a Cai family thing. With the Cai being third generation cultivators counting Renxiang. They were very likely invented by, or perfected by Shenhua.

Also noting that nobody really remembers what happens inside a White Room.

Looking at the list, I think it may be incomplete. The big things I think it's missing are:

Formations: the White Rooms show us, I think that you can have Cultivation boosting Formations. They're unusually good and in high demand, but I doubt they're unique.
The White Rooms function as Cultivation Sites and we know those can be artificially induced or moved around, at least, for up to Green sites.

Not meaningfully different from simply having cultivation sites, other than the usual of old and powerful clans being able to obtain them more easily.

Talismans: Although we've not seen it, I would expect that the same would be true for Talismans. They're reasonably arbitrary magic.
We've seen it. Suyin's Impurity Magnet is one such.
That we don't see them in more use does point to them being uneconomical for Reds and Yellows in some way, Yrs made a point of noting that if its easy to do and effective, the noble clans would be doing it already.

Based on Suyin's one device, we can speculate that it takes sufficient skill to produce and have limited enough production runs that they're likely bottlenecking on "anyone who could make one has better things to do than make one for Reds".

Might be more common at Green and up however. We'll see
Teaching Focused Arts: A big advantage of a decent sized noble clan is that they're big enough for members to specialise. That mean that you can have some of the elders that have started to stagnate in pure Cultivation terms develop/learn arts that make them very good at helping their juniors Cultivate/channel energy into them/whatever.
We know Bureaucramancers exist. Guiding Moon almost certainly has Enhanced Education arts, Mother Moon likewise for Child Raising Arts. Reasonable conclusion, but I folded all that under Tutors. Good quality tutors are invariably cultivators of significant potency, and thus their time is a rationed Clan Resource.

Incidentally theres likely some Argent Path Inner Sect disciples with Teaching Arts, because they can teach any element, which means that they can take a wide enough range of Tutoring missions for their sect points on a regular basis(and probably find a cultivation art that gives cultivation progress for teaching).

It WOULD certainly be very very lucrative for a newly minted Baron/Viscount to get some of these.
Coaching: adults in Cultivation schools will have both transhuman intellects and social skills as well as the general bonus that comes from having massively superior Cultivation levels. Given that purely mortal parents and teachers can manage this pretty reliably, they should be more than capable of instilling young nobles with phenomenal levels of intrinsic motivation and the other characteristics that make up lower case t talent that it makes Ling Qi look like a disorganised slacker.

Cram Schools: Clans also have scale efficiencies when teaching batches of young Cultivators the same arts.
All these were listed as early tutoring. Their availability is likely lower for pre-teens who get less out of it however.

I'm not sure about cram school efficiencies as much, since it takes a very large clan(or a Sect) to have enough students on a regular basis to make them worthwhile. Noble clans like to space out their kids so they got enough good stuff to go around, while at higher cultivation things become too personalized for such efficiencies to apply well.

However, they WOULD probably be a great way to develop House Guards and artificers for Reds and Yellows to feed the economy.

Blessings: Those noble clans with ancestors descended from Great Spirits should really have a pretty effective inside track about how to attract their blessings for their descendants. We've seen how powerful these can be.
Hadn't really seen any blessings going around, but they're by nature hard to notice.

Lastly, synergies: the older clans have also had thousands of years of trial and error or even active research programs by superhuman intellects to work out how to best combine all these factors for multiple effects. We've recently seen how even the combination of a talisman and a pill is better than each alone, so how much better would all of these factors added together be.
We see this already. Just consider what kind of cultivation bonuses Meizhen gets for:
-A cultivation art which boosts Water(like their built in water based cultivation art we knew she actively suffered in cultivation from until we found a nice lake for snek)
-A cultivation site which boosts Water(like you know, one of their Thousand Lakes)
-An A-class spirit which boosts Water(hi Cui!)
-A spirit bloodline which boosts Water(hi White Snek!)
-Bai specific drugs

A Bai cultivating Water at Yellow could easily progress thrice as fast as anyone else of the same Talent.

But do note that age does not equate to innovations. Most clans are likely going to grow much faster in their first three centuries than their last three millennia, because they'd have found a comfortable and efficient pattern to fall into, and as is human tendency, grows conservative(especially when the Good Old Days codger is still around and powerful)

For example, say that a Ji Rong level talent showed up in a Ducal clan. They'd be crazy to send him to a sect rather than educate him at home during the peak Cultivation years. To be honest though, this should apply to all nobles. They should be coming to the sect in their twenties as Cyans for the equivalent of post-graduate studies. Of course, this is true irrelevant of Cultivation, fourteen year olds are too young and impressionable to be removed from their clan's direct guidance and exposed to the hostile environment of a sect (particularly Imperial sects that are enemies of the nobility, it's just asking for their loyalty to be subverted).
The bolded is the deliberate intent.

And also paints a more antagonistic picture than is reality, since the whole stunt largely seems to go by:
-Low Nobles are attracted to the Sect by the opportunity and ability to tap on resources(particularly arts!) they can't get easily otherwise. They also get a lot of connections above their level. They'd gladly send their best and brightest, because frankly they NEED that advantage.

-Mid Nobles are attracted to the Sect for the purpose of poaching talents amongst the commoners and low nobility, the Sect lets them because it keeps them coming. They also get a lot of networking done with each other. They would be sending a scattering of future leaders to hobnob.

-High Nobles are there as political statement.
--The Imperial Seat supports the Sects, so the high nobility must show at least token support for the Imperial initiative. A branch family member every decade or so maybe?
--However, they cannot send total embarrassments because that'd shame them, whoever they send should comfortably punk the best that the Low Nobles will be sending. Not hard given the resource gap.
--In addition, the more High Nobles are sending the scions to the Sects, the more all the OTHER High Nobles must match the move, to avoid being politically isolated(not too different from the Sun King strategy no?).
--Which means they must start sending actual quality scions because fuck letting rival noble clan get one up on them.

Meizhen should be the typical Ducal scion in Sect setting. She's talented enough to make a good show, she's not popular internally so if she gets 'corrupted' by the Sect's ideas, so be it.

Renxiang is here as a political move...evidently Shenhua supports the idea of the Sects, it actually fits quite well with the Way of her Domain to bring all the diverse clans of the empire in line...but also as a Ducal Clan of two her motivation is ALSO to make sure her heir has her own allies and connections, if she wants the clan to stand after her ascension.

Liling is here as a surprise. Meta wise we know Sun Shao wants her as far away from the bloody jungle as physically possible, and he could hardly send her to another clan for fostering without getting funky looks.

This year is a bit of a game changer. I have to wonder how many clans changed up their Sect candidate after hearing that three ducal scions are showing up this time.
 
Also noting that nobody really remembers what happens inside a White Room.
As an aside, I don't think that's an assertion we can make. Ling Qi certainly doesn't remember it. Back when the White Room were made (they were the main source of income of the Cai clan back before they took over), Shenhua was likely at most Indigo-Violet. It is extremely unlikely the people for whom the white room are meant, Cyan+, also can't recall anything that goes on there.
 
As an aside, I don't think that's an assertion we can make. Ling Qi certainly doesn't remember it. Back when the White Room were made (they were the main source of income of the Cai clan back before they took over), Shenhua was likely at most Indigo-Violet. It is extremely unlikely the people for whom the white room are meant, Cyan+, also can't recall anything that goes on there.
then if it were a vulnerability at the time, I would expect her to not cater to those who has a chance of figuring it out.

Heck, Im sure many have tried to reinvent them due to how Profitable they are.

So we can likely assume that:
A.) it could be a secret held with the highest of informational security (not likely)
B.) requires something which cannot be substituted with another, be it techniqe, material, or something else
C.) Nature of said room ensures its own security and/or protection
- maybe the domain theory
- or formation shenanigans
 
then if it were a vulnerability at the time, I would expect her to not cater to those who has a chance of figuring it out.

Heck, Im sure many have tried to reinvent them due to how Profitable they are.

So we can likely assume that:
A.) it could be a secret held with the highest of informational security (not likely)
B.) requires something which cannot be substituted with another, be it techniqe, material, or something else
C.) Nature of said room ensures its own security and/or protection
- maybe the domain theory
- or formation shenanigans
We know even low end production stuff like the current production exam is more or less tinker tech that each one needs to get to in their own ways. White room? It's the indigo+ version of that. The very nature of how production works in this setting means that copying other people's work when you don't possess a similar Way as that person is next to impossible, and even then you need to learn "the beginning" of how they did it, rather than the current product.

There is a reason that clans can keep secret formations fairly 'easily', after all. No need to go through a "It is special for no one to have copied it" when lack of copying appears to be something fairly common amongst high end production work.

As for 'not catering to those having a chance to not looking at the work'? Well, those were also the people having the dough to make the white room profitable.
 
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Mmm, thats a thing yeah. The 'common' formations are just those that are simple enough in concept to be attained similarly through different Ways.

Which actually puts Pills at an odd place because they seem remarkably standardized for such an approach until we go right back to Drugs 101 by Su Ling(? been a while).
Pills are reductive. You take a spiritual core, then you use various additives to purify away all but the portions you want. So your personal Way matters less, because you could arrive at the same Sable Light Pill from the same type of Moon core through hundreds of methods, as long as the active ingredients left does only Sable Light Pill things.
And most spirits of a given type are identical with no individuality.

Which then highlights why people keep cultivation sites and pill ingredient to product paths obfuscated. If someone knows your key materials for a given drug, they can probably arrive at the same drug even with different process.
 
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Has anyone thought about what we do if we beat Sun Liling? Meizahn and Ren would both be terribly awkward to fight.
 
Has anyone thought about what we do if we beat Sun Liling? Meizahn and Ren would both be terribly awkward to fight.
Wasn't it either make a token show off or outright bowing out?

Addressed for Renxiang's end at least.
Ling Qi frowned a little, that prep time would probably work against her. She didn't really have any secondary arts to attune in preparation for specific opponents. "...What do I do if I am paired with you?" She asked quietly. There were other worrying match ups, but that was the one that concerned her the most.

"That will not happen tomorrow," Cai Renxiang stated flatly. "It would be a blatant insult to the Cai, if it occurs in a later round though…" she paused for a moment. "I will give you the opportunity to display your talents. I cannot afford to display certain abilities before the final rounds however," she stated bluntly, meeting Ling Qi's eyes.

Taking a deep breath, she nodded. It would sting to willingly lose… but Ling Qi was well practiced with casting aside pride. Such a thing would be a minor issue at most. "Alright then, was there anything else?" She asked confidently.
 
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Wasn't it either make a token show off or outright bowing out?

Addressed for Renxiang's end at least.
Its basically a case of where we give each other face, mostly by letting Renxiang show off us by beating on us and Ling Qi giving a good show fight.

Under no circumstances are we supposed to bow out or win against Renxiang, given her current standing orders.
 
Uh, as far as I'm aware they're a Cai family thing. With the Cai being third generation cultivators counting Renxiang. They were very likely invented by, or perfected by Shenhua.

Also noting that nobody really remembers what happens inside a White Room.
Renxiang's fourth generation I thought. Yrs mentioned how Shenhua's father and grandfather died to Ogodei.
 
Renxiang's fourth generation I thought. Yrs mentioned how Shenhua's father and grandfather died to Ogodei.
Renxiang is fourth generation but they died 150 years ago in an incursion that was not Ogodei.

The last big incursion was around a bit over 150-ish years ago, Cai's Grandfather died in that one

Ogodei was something like 400 years ago from what I recall from... somewhere. *is annoyed it is escaping him*
 
Has anyone thought about what we do if we beat Sun Liling? Meizahn and Ren would both be terribly awkward to fight.
Given how well we fought against Meizhen(made her try, did not make her strain) the odds are negligible, but we'd give a good show fight and then get our ass kicked with grace.
A commoner winding up as tourney champion would be very disruptive.
 
Renxiang's fourth generation I thought. Yrs mentioned how Shenhua's father and grandfather died to Ogodei.
Her older brother and father, actually:
He died along with Shenhua's older brother fighting a Cloud Tribe incursion a decade or so before the overthrow. Ling Qi wouldn't know what he was like.

Also, Cai Renxiang being third or fourth generation is a bit vague, as the wording was a bit unclear, and previous discussions in discords made me think that Shenhua's dad was first generation.

@yrsillar, was Shenhua's dad first gen or second gen?
 
Notice what she says there: can't reveal her abilities until the final rounds. You can't get more final of a round than a theoretical Ling vs. Cai match. I think it was more of a need to keep some trump cards for Sun and Bai than a blanket ban on winning.
It's both. Ling Qi certainly understood it to be "if that happens, you'll take a fall, but we'll make it look good".

Now, if it's final round, then Cai gets to show off a few more techniques, which means that Ling Qi can go all out more (not that we'll have any more secrets after Ji Rong and Sun Liling... or any further need to demonstrate our abilities). At that point, the trick is going to be showing off enough to let CRX be sufficiently impressive in defeating us.

Ah! I just realized one more little way in which Cai Shenhua tweaked the tournament. The Sun Liling/Li Qing fight, if it happens, is going to happen *before* the CRX/Meizhen fight... which means the two of them can tweak their strategies depending on whether Sun Liling is still int eh docket or not. Part of that is going to be things like "how much do you show off?" It might go as far as who throws the fight to whom, though. If Sun Liling is still out there, then Bai Meizhen is obviously the one to be fighting her. If she's not, though, then it might tweak the political statement better to have CRX win it. (It might not. Hard to say.) Regardless, it's another little thread of political advantage that Shenhua spun out of this whole thing.
 
It's both. Ling Qi certainly understood it to be "if that happens, you'll take a fall, but we'll make it look good".

Now, if it's final round, then Cai gets to show off a few more techniques, which means that Ling Qi can go all out more (not that we'll have any more secrets after Ji Rong and Sun Liling... or any further need to demonstrate our abilities). At that point, the trick is going to be showing off enough to let CRX be sufficiently impressive in defeating us.

Ah! I just realized one more little way in which Cai Shenhua tweaked the tournament. The Sun Liling/Li Qing fight, if it happens, is going to happen *before* the CRX/Meizhen fight... which means the two of them can tweak their strategies depending on whether Sun Liling is still int eh docket or not. Part of that is going to be things like "how much do you show off?" It might go as far as who throws the fight to whom, though. If Sun Liling is still out there, then Bai Meizhen is obviously the one to be fighting her. If she's not, though, then it might tweak the political statement better to have CRX win it. (It might not. Hard to say.) Regardless, it's another little thread of political advantage that Shenhua spun out of this whole thing.
While this is technically correct, and I guess there can be an argument about "Shenhua keeps in mind long odds", there is absolutely no way that this was a major concern in how Shenhua tweaked the tournament, as the odds of it happening are too low for it to be such.

However, something like "If Ji Rong fights Sun Liling before Meizhen vs CRX, Liling will look bad by comparison" and "If Ling Qi fights Sun Liling before Meizhen vs CRX, Liling will also look bad by comparison". Though in the latter case, Liling can still have an outlier chance of managing to win easily enough against Ling Qi without showing any of her techniques so that she still keep her face. It's just going to be hard, because Liling is supposed to be able to utterly Stomp Ling Qi, but she also can't show off her techs either.

Same as her Shen Hu fight, to be honest. She'll almost certainly be the one with the most humiliating fight out of the monsters in the incoming round, unless Kang Zihao is vastly stronger than I expect... and even then, taking a while against Kang Zihao loses less face than against a low noble.
 
-High Nobles are there as political statement.
--The Imperial Seat supports the Sects, so the high nobility must show at least token support for the Imperial initiative. A branch family member every decade or so maybe?
--However, they cannot send total embarrassments because that'd shame them, whoever they send should comfortably punk the best that the Low Nobles will be sending. Not hard given the resource gap.
--In addition, the more High Nobles are sending the scions to the Sects, the more all the OTHER High Nobles must match the move, to avoid being politically isolated(not too different from the Sun King strategy no?).
--Which means they must start sending actual quality scions because fuck letting rival noble clan get one up on them.

Meizhen should be the typical Ducal scion in Sect setting. She's talented enough to make a good show, she's not popular internally so if she gets 'corrupted' by the Sect's ideas, so be it.

Renxiang is here as a political move...evidently Shenhua supports the idea of the Sects, it actually fits quite well with the Way of her Domain to bring all the diverse clans of the empire in line...but also as a Ducal Clan of two her motivation is ALSO to make sure her heir has her own allies and connections, if she wants the clan to stand after her ascension.

Liling is here as a surprise. Meta wise we know Sun Shao wants her as far away from the bloody jungle as physically possible, and he could hardly send her to another clan for fostering without getting funky looks.

This year is a bit of a game changer. I have to wonder how many clans changed up their Sect candidate after hearing that three ducal scions are showing up this time.

I know Xuan Shi is a bit low impact, but he's a ducal member too... albeit under your classification, he'd be similar to Meizhen. Good enough to show off and still Xuan, but perhaps not among the most favored given his lack of a xuan wu partner.

Shenhua's Dad was first gen.

Update will be out today, but it might come later in the evening, depending.

"One should at least maintain basic civic awareness," Bai Meizhen responded with disappointment. "Really, if that is the state of education in these southern cities…" Ling Qi shifted uncomfortably, reminded suddenly that she had never really made it clear to Bai Meizhen exactly how low her birth was. "Cai Renxiang is the daughter and heiress to the Duchess of this province," Meizhen continued after shaking her head. "The Cai family is very new of course, a mere three generations from their first cultivator, but Cai Shenhua is the youngest White cultivator in the empire, so it is not surprising that they seized the governorship of a province."

Yep, so CRX is third generation.

Also, it wasn't the grandpa that died, it was Shenhua's father and brother, I thought.
 
While this is technically correct, and I guess there can be an argument about "Shenhua keeps in mind long odds", there is absolutely no way that this was a major concern in how Shenhua tweaked the tournament, as the odds of it happening are too low for it to be such.

However, something like "If Ji Rong fights Sun Liling before Meizhen vs CRX, Liling will look bad by comparison" and "If Ling Qi fights Sun Liling before Meizhen vs CRX, Liling will also look bad by comparison". Though in the latter case, Liling can still have an outlier chance of managing to win easily enough against Ling Qi without showing any of her techniques so that she still keep her face. It's just going to be hard, because Liling is supposed to be able to utterly Stomp Ling Qi, but she also can't show off her techs either.

Same as her Shen Hu fight, to be honest. She'll almost certainly be the one with the most humiliating fight out of the monsters in the incoming round, unless Kang Zihao is vastly stronger than I expect... and even then, taking a while against Kang Zihao loses less face than against a low noble.
I was meaning it as a kind of "Shenhua keeps in mind long odds". More particularly, it was a "Shenhua will tweak absolutely everything to squeeze every possible advantage out of the situation." It's long odds, sure - but there's still a potential advantage to be scavenged.

Your thoughts on it making Sun Liling look bad are also plausible.
 
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The more likely cause of the brackets structure is that Sun Shao made his preferences clear, only for the Sect to later show it to Shenhua as an act of deference which inevitably led to an amused chuckle as she filled in the rest herself for maximum hilarity
 
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