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Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

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Arkeus said:
but the way you do your comparison makes it obvious that such a comparison won't ever compare to direct damage. There is no point to summoning something if its role is basically the same as a fireball rather than survive and be useful for multiple turns.
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Right, but they basically aren't useful by themselves for multiple turns because their dice suck, and if we want them to be useful at all, it ties our instant to the usage of Pressure Crack each turn to get our +4 on the next turn. And we can also compare them to debuff techs that have an attack attached (SS, AtW, EW) which I did. The point is now and likely at AE3, even with a debuffed opponent, almost anything else we can do is better, including doing damage. And if the opponent manages to dodge some of the debuffs (most likely through dissonance not always hitting), AE will look even worse since the chances of the extra -4 grapple drop precipitously compared to debuff tech attacks with better dice.

The exercise is to quantify exactly what our capabilities are.
 
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uiopion said:
Right, but they basically aren't useful by themselves for multiple turns because their dice suck, and if we want them to be useful at all, it ties our instant to the usage of Pressure Crack each turn to get our +4 on the next turn. And we can also compare them to debuff techs that have an attack attached (SS, AtW, EW) which I did. The point is now and likely at AE3, even with a debuffed opponent, almost anything else we can do is better, including doing damage. And if the opponent manages to dodge some of the debuffs (most likely through dissonance not always hitting), AE will look even worse since the chances of the extra -4 grapple drop precipitously compared to debuff tech attacks with better dice.

The exercise is to quantify exactly what our capabilities are.
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Well, a worm's usability threshold becomes much lower if it can reliably survive more turn, as it has more turns to get lucky and hit. As for Pressure Crack:
Pressure Crack: ooo said:
Cost: 6 qi
Instant
Uttering a command or encouragement to their allies, the user fills themselves and up to five allies within forty meters with vigor and determination to strike down their foes manifesting as rising steam. Grants a four die bonus to the offensive pools of all affected allies for three turns. Allies who attack the same foe as the the user add an additional point of semi perfect damage on hit. In addition, for each ally who attacks the user's target, the user gains +2 die bonus to their offensive clash against the target the following turn. This effect may only apply to a single target at a time.
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PC lasts for three turns, so as such worms lasting longer also can take advantage of it (and also boost us) for a longer time without needing to use it each turn.

Not that I disagree that they really need better dicepool, as it shouldn't be assumed that a summon needs 1 offensive art passive + 1 offensive support tech + 15 debuff on enemies to even have a chance to hit an enemy.
 
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Arkeus said:
PC lasts for three turns, so as such worms lasting longer also can take advantage of it (and also boost us) for a longer time without needing to use it each turn.
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Yeah, that's true. So basically what we need for AE to be useful in its current state is to be able to boost worm survival so we can have +4 for 3 turns. But even then, we can get a differential of 3 to 5 while still doing damage using other techs.
 
uiopion said:
Yeah, that's true. So basically what we need for AE to be useful in its current state is to be able to boost worm survival so we can have +4 for 3 turns. But even then, we can get a differential of 3 to 5 while still doing damage using other techs.
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More or less yeah when talking in the context of actually fighting a peer opponent, i.e an Early Green. Now, it does make for a hilarious down punching tech if we want to fuck around with a late yellow for shits and giggles.
 
uiopion said:
First off, assume a 35 pdef / 30 sdef green 1
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Lower spiritual defense is explicitly an artifact of the "10 meridians or less" crowd. It doesn't apply to anyone at tournament level so it should be 35 pdef/35 sdef.

This makes sense because if people at our level did have lower spiritual defense everyone would start targeting that because it would give them an advantage. In response to a flood of people attacking spiritual defense, other people would start raising their spiritual defense. The end result of the arms race is that physical and spiritual defenses even out.
uiopion said:
Followed up with FSS's attacks (Hoarfrost is really good guys)
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The HC debuff only kicks in when they take health damage. If they can't negate semi-perfect that means they're a scrub, and that we can straight-up murder them with Falling Star Shot. Regardless of our weapon choice someone like that is a walking dead man rather than a real opponent.

I'm not particularly a fan of AE, mind you, but since we're probably going to be cultivating it to AE3 next sable light pill week regardless, arguing about the specifics now won't accomplish much.
 
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uiopion said:
Yeah, that's true. So basically what we need for AE to be useful in its current state is to be able to boost worm survival so we can have +4 for 3 turns. But even then, we can get a differential of 3 to 5 while still doing damage using other techs.
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The worms don't need to survive. If it requires an action by the opponent focused on the worms to get rid of them then they have paid off over and above the damage they enable. Even prompting the opponent to use an AoE attack instead of a more effective targeted attack is a bonus.

The problem is that right now they can either be completely ignored and/or auto-killed by anybody competent. This means they can't do their meatshield job properly. This is to be expected given the art level.

I wish we could reskin our arts. Something that was exactly the same mechanically but that operated by summoning sparkly will o' the wisps would be so much easier to rally voter support for.
 
So, on the discussion of AE. This is like the 5th or 6th time (maybe even more) where it has been argued that it demonstrably sucks, and where it has been counter-argued that it is a potent tool in our toolkit. At this point, it seems to be the past-time of FoD to rail against or for AE.

In that vein, rather than rehashing the tired arguments for and against, I'm going to attempt something new. Opening discussion on an aspect of AE that is little talked about, rarely speculated about, and what I think has potential. And it can be summed up with a simple question.

Why do the summon worms have 6 qi?

They have no art to block semi-perfect damage, so that would be going through anyway. They have no techniques to use. So the only functional use right now is to block regular damage, which is effective health. So why have qi instead of having more health?

Now qi is easier to replenish than health, and Yrs mentioned awhile ago that the worms might get qi regen as well. As such, I can see three aspects as to why the worms have qi.
  1. Renewable defense; qi regens, so if they survive an attack they are in better shape to take another hit next turn
  2. Qi batteries; a way to siphon the remaining qi from our minions. Not much support for this possibility, but it would be a net gain for us since it costs 4 qi to make and they have 6 qi.
  3. Techniques; the worms actually have a technique they can use.
Each of these ideas has potential. Renewable defense means that a person must destroy at least half of the worm's health or it will take at least twice as long to deal with them. Qi batteries focus on the gnawing hunger of the earth and allow us to keep an attrition style going by spending qi on minions where, if they are incapable of doing anything, can be refunded for additional qi. And should the worms have techniques, that might dramatically boost their combat viability, depending on if it is defensive or offensive tech.

So, why do you think the worms have 6 qi?
 
Thor's Twin said:
So, why do you think the worms have 6 qi?
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Sadly, the cruel math of game balance means that summons can't do anything too cool. I think we've also seen a fairly broad spectrum of worms from Yan Renshu without seeing them do anything nifty. I'd guess it's just there as protection against normal damage.

I do think that the main point of the worms is to be a different vector of debuff and battlefield control. The auto-grapple points in that direction as does the accompanying poison cloud art. It's logical that future upgrades would go more in that direction (sticky spit, instant pit trap, etc). I just don't think they'll ever be very strong.
 
Thor's Twin said:
So, on the discussion of AE. This is like the 5th or 6th time (maybe even more) where it has been argued that it demonstrably sucks, and where it has been counter-argued that it is a potent tool in our toolkit. At this point, it seems to be the past-time of FoD to rail against or for AE.
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The argument isn't over until it's put in the form of an American Chopper meme.

via Imgflip Meme Generator
 
*stands meekly in the middle with his opinion that the passives are pretty baller and it fills a nice role in our Element flavor*
 
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I'll leave it as AE is narratively strong, and it would be great to see that reflected in mechanics rather than its current state.

Also its passives are useful.
 
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Personally, I just want to keep AE cause I like the passives and I think the summoning is too cool to throw away. I do want to level it up to see if it'd give us more/better worms to throw at our enemies.
 
Arkeus said:
PC lasts for three turns, so as such worms lasting longer also can take advantage of it (and also boost us) for a longer time without needing to use it each turn.

Not that I disagree that they really need better dicepool, as it shouldn't be assumed that a summon needs 1 offensive art passive + 1 offensive support tech + 15 debuff on enemies to even have a chance to hit an enemy.
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Balance wise someone going for summoner build could stack specialised heart arts to get +20 offensive passives.
We get +4 to projectives and +3 to physical melee, as long as someone specialises well it would be strong art.
GM probably thing about something like that when balancing things.
 
OneArmedYeti said:
*stands meekly in the middle with his opinion that the passives are pretty baller and it fills a nice role in our Element flavor*
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AE's passives are pretty bleh. Right now it's mostly useful because we lack good sources of sp.def. The perception is OK. The others are so limited so as to be practically useless. The stacking bonus used to be good until it was nerfed to only work on wound in the the revamp.
 
Peter87 said:
Balance wise someone going for summoner build could stack specialised heart arts to get +20 offensive passives.
We get +4 to projectives and +3 to physical melee, as long as someone specialises well it would be strong art.
GM probably thing about something like that when balancing things.
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The problem is that we are already hitting the edge of what a summoner build would hit about this. FZ isn't quite specialised for worms (projectiles and the worms don't have those), but we do have 3 dedicated buff support arts (FZ, AC, TRF) and 1 control art beside AE itself. This isn't quite pure summoner build worthy, but there is a good argument that we are better at supporting summons than at music or archery and so on.
 
Erebeal said:
AE's passives are pretty bleh. Right now it's mostly useful because we lack good sources of sp.def. The perception is OK. The others are so limited so as to be practically useless. The stacking bonus used to be good until it was nerfed to only work on wound in the the revamp.
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Right now the qi regen is small but with a few level in AE it will grow. Making the first turn a breeze. A battle royal mean that a lot of our ennemies will get hurt, thus fueling us.
 
archangis said:
Right now the qi regen is small but with a few level in AE it will grow. Making the first turn a breeze. A battle royal mean that a lot of our ennemies will get hurt, thus fueling us.
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Offence/defence works in such a way that people have to actually decide to take damage for them to take it before their Qi is drained, and given how many effects are 'on damage', very few would.

AE Qi drain or AE Damage Dice just won't happen.
 
Arkeus said:
Offence/defence works in such a way that people have to actually decide to take damage for them to take it before their Qi is drained, and given how many effects are 'on damage', very few would.

AE Qi drain or AE Damage Dice just won't happen.
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Ling Qi let two points of damage slip past in her first round against the shambling disciple, clearly damage is something cultivators let happen.
 
Arkeus said:
Offence/defence works in such a way that people have to actually decide to take damage for them to take it before their Qi is drained, and given how many effects are 'on damage', very few would.

AE Qi drain or AE Damage Dice just won't happen.
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Once again battle royal. There will be early yellow that will get punted out on the first turn. The will be mid yellow that will feed us in the middle of the fight. There will be late yellow that will take damage in the end.

AE regen shine in actual fight with multiple level of fighters.
 
mc2rpg said:
Ling Qi let two points of damage slip past in her first round against the shambling disciple, clearly damage is something cultivators let happen.
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Fair enough, it does happen, but at this point it's a 'freebie' considering that any cultivators fighting should almost never choose to let on-damage effect proc.
archangis said:
Once again battle royal. There will be early yellow that will get punted out on the first turn. The will be mid yellow that will feed us in the middle of the fight. There will be late yellow that will take damage in the end.

AE regen shine in actual fight with multiple level of fighters.
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Shine? It's a Qi drain of 1/Turn in the best possible scenario, and that scenario will only happen when someone else does the damage. It's arguably good for a support like us who will try to have allies doing the damage, and it's much better in wars than anywhere else.... But even in the best case scenario it's significantly worse than TRD or SEA.

It IS a passive though.... but how limited in both applicability and power means I am not sure it will ever be relevant beside the tournament prelims at most, in which it would maybe give us 6Qi over the course of them.
 
Arkeus said:
Fair enough, it does happen, but at this point it's a 'freebie' considering that any cultivators fighting should almost never choose to let on-damage effect proc.

Shine? It's a Qi drain of 1/Turn in the best possible scenario, and that scenario will only happen when someone else does the damage. It's arguably good for a support like us who will try to have allies doing the damage, and it's much better in wars than anywhere else.... But even in the best case scenario it's significantly worse than TRD or SEA.

It IS a passive though.... but how limited in both applicability and power means I am not sure it will ever be relevant beside the tournament prelims at most, in which it would maybe give us 6Qi over the course of them.
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Of course it isn't up to standard. It's a mid yellow art. Comparing it to top yellow art will alwayd leave it behind.

My point was that once leveled that regen would make the battle royal part really easy.
 
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