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Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

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Maybe the real lesson here is "don't start a grudgematch because the moon dangles some shinies at us"?

It looks to me like some people don't think the options we're faced with today are the consequences we bear for choosing that mission, but they totally are.

We can take some personal consequences, by harming someone who probably only deserves it a little. Well, there would have been different personal consequences at different junctures, but we deftly avoided all of those.
Or we can foist the consequences off until they bite us back even harder, likely by harming someone who definitely doesn't deserve it at all.

I know which I'm voting for.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
What it boils down to for me is everyone who is voting to restrain Meizhen is voting to let one of our less powerful friends get crippled or traumatized in the future. There is no question that Yan Renshu will retain his grudge and no question that he will eventually, be it weeks or months, be able to act.

That is the same tier of mistake that was made in not checking on Suyin during thunderdome, not offering to help Su Ling for her breakthrough, in not trying to check on Xiulan after Dark Dreams. It is something that will end up hurting people we care about.
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By that same logic everyone voting for the not care option is voting for letting Meizhen break the sect rules for the sake of our revenge and be punished with suspension or expulsion, making her miss the tournament and seriously jeopardizing her future in her clan. It ALSO hurts people we care about.
 
Nemonowan said:
By that same logic everyone voting for the not care option is voting for letting Meizhen break the sect rules for the sake of our revenge and be punished with suspension or expulsion, making her miss the tournament and seriously jeopardizing her future in her clan. It ALSO hurts people we care about.
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Meizhen is accepting that consequence herself. She chose it, and while I would normally agree that we should mitigate that as best we can, we would be pushing things off until they hit someone who didn't choose to be involved. It's the best of two bad options.

I think that Meizhen knows well the sect rules and she knows how far she can push it far better than we do. She says as much in the update.
 
Nemonowan said:
By that same logic everyone voting for the not care option is voting for letting Meizhen break the sect rules for the sake of our revenge and be punished with suspension or expulsion, making her miss the tournament and seriously jeopardizing her future in her clan. It ALSO hurts people we care about.
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that's under the assumption that Meizhen is somehow retarded and will willingly break the sect rules, when she just but flat out said she won't.
Adhoc vote count started by Ayashi on Dec 29, 2017 at 5:38 PM, finished with 44521 posts and 150 votes.
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Ayashi said:
that's under the assumption that Meizhen is somehow retarded and will willingly break the sect rules, when she just but flat out said she won't.
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And the "this will hurt our friends" argument rests upon the assumption that whatever Meizhen would do that Qi would object to would prevent YR from hurting them, while whatever is within Qi's limits wouldn't.
Given that those limits are permanent crippling and torture, I dont see how Meizhen could go beyond them to more effectively stop YR without dreaking the rules
 
Nemonowan said:
And the "this will hurt our friends" argument rests upon the assumption that whatever Meizhen would do that Qi would object to would prevent YR from hurting them, while whatever is within Qi's limits wouldn't.
Given that those limits are permanent crippling and torture, I dont see how Meizhen could go beyond them to more effectively stop YR without dreaking the rules
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Meizhen's point is that she can do whatever to him because he has no backing.
 
@yrsillar

What kind of things would be included in NOT going overboard?

Nemonowan said:
Given that those limits are permanent crippling and torture, I dont see how Meizhen could go beyond them to more effectively stop YR without dreaking the rules
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As, Meizhen pointed out, no one cares about him, so the "limits" are more flexible. Like, "accidentally" cutting out someone's eye was A-OK by sect standards.
 
Klaus said:
@yrsillar

What kind of things would be included in NOT going overboard?


As, Meizhen pointed out, no one cares about him, so the "limits" are more flexible. Like, "accidentally" cutting out someone's eye was A-OK by sect standards.
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In this world that's not permanent crippling. It hasn't slowed down Su at all and she is confident in regrowing it later. Or do you think that cutting out one of YR's eyes will be enough to stop him messing with us or our friends?
 
Nemonowan said:
In this world that's not permanent crippling. It hasn't slowed down Su at all and she is confident in regrowing it later. Or do you think that cutting out one of YR's eyes will be enough to stop him messing with us or our friends?
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Remember the siblings who wanted revenge on Xiulan for blinding that girl, because they couldn't get her healed despite being nobles? Blinding Yan Renshu, a commoner, would certainly slow him down long enough for all of us to graduate, if it didn't end his career entirely.
 
I can't wait to fight Yan Renshu in five years after he makes a deal with some Cloud Tribe and gets an invasion going into Emerald Sea.

Totally serious that sounds like a good time.
 
This isn't about proportionate response or whether Yan Renshu deserves it or not. Though he totally does.

This is about the simple principle that you don't kick a guy when he's down unless you're sure he isn't getting back up. This is a Third Realm production cultivator and formations expert who is already holding a grudge and not acting rationally.

His simple existence is already coloring our every move. It means we can't take the direct route to any of our cultivation sites. It means we need be coy and indirect in order to accommodate lush a simple gathering mission. It means that we've spent hundreds of stones on escape and anti-sorting talismans. It means the downside of losing a duel goes from losing a talisman or two to being stripped of every piece of equipment, captured and possibly even tortured or crippled.

And that's not going to end when we get to Third Realm. He's already very reluctant to strike directly and he'll still be capable to striking indirectly because that's his specialty. It won't end when (if) we make it to the Inner Sect either. I doubt both Su Ling and Li Suyin will make it. And people have gotten attached to the Ma sisters for some reason and they definitely won't make it. There's a very good chance Lan Lan won't make it. And that's discounting the possibility that he makes the Inner Sect anyway.

This threat needs to end one way or another.

Nemonowan said:
By that same logic everyone voting for the not care option is voting for letting Meizhen break the sect rules for the sake of our revenge and be punished with suspension or expulsion, making her miss the tournament and seriously jeopardizing her future in her clan. It ALSO hurts people we care about.
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I trust Meizhen who has spent her entire life studying politics and backstabbing to know how to toe the line of doing crippling damage without attracting the Authority's ire.
 
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[X] Go along with Meizhen, you don't much care what happens to Yan Renshu, but you would rather she have backup. He's tricky.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
What it boils down to for me is everyone who is voting to restrain Meizhen is voting to let one of our less powerful friends get crippled or traumatized in the future. There is no question that Yan Renshu will retain his grudge and no question that he will eventually, be it weeks or months, be able to act.

That is the same tier of mistake that was made in not checking on Suyin during thunderdome, not offering to help Su Ling for her breakthrough, in not trying to check on Xiulan after Dark Dreams. It is something that will end up hurting people we care about.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
Maybe the real lesson here is "don't start a grudgematch because the moon dangles some shinies at us"?

It looks to me like some people don't think the options we're faced with today are
We can take some personal consequences, by harming someone who probably only deserves it a little. Well, there would have been different personal consequences at different junctures, but we deftly avoided all of those.
Or we can foist the consequences off until they bite us back even harder, likely by harming someone who definitely doesn't deserve it at all.

I know which I'm voting for.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Now that I think of it, there is another assumption behind the "not care" vote.
Why does everyone think that Meizhen will somehow neutralize YR permanently? As we gave discussed it is rather hard to do within sect rules. Perhaps she just intends to send him to the hospital for some months, long enough for Qi to get in the inner sect and become Cai's retainer. We then would have so much backing that if YR tried anything he would get swatted within the rules. But that would do nothing to help our friends in the outer sect. And that is my point, why should Meizhen care about or even think about THEM? It might even be part of the lesson: if they are ours WE must protect them.
 
Nemonowan said:
Now that I think of it, there is another assumption behind the "not care" vote.
Why does everyone think that Meizhen will somehow neutralize YR permanently? As we gave discussed it is rather hard to do within sect rules. Perhaps she just intends to send him to the hospital for some months, long enough for Qi to get in the inner sect and become Cai's retainer. We then would have so much backing that if YR tried anything he would get swatted within the rules. But that would do nothing to help our friends in the outer sect. And that is my point, why should Meizhen care about or even think about THEM? It might even be part of the lesson: if they are ours WE must protect them.
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It's likely to be longer lasting than if Meizhen doesn't go all out.
 
Klaus said:
Remember the siblings who wanted revenge on Xiulan for blinding that girl, because they couldn't get her healed despite being nobles? Blinding Yan Renshu, a commoner, would certainly slow him down long enough for all of us to graduate, if it didn't end his career entirely.
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As someone mentioned the Bai are on the outs right now. Sun might have enough influence to have the sect throw the book at her too.
 
[X] Go along with Meizhen, you should probably convince her not to go overboard, and she could use backup besides

Pipeman said:
He has no backing.
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But he does. Sun will back him up if he get beat up if only to fuck over Bai. It's a mistake to think that our ennemies wouldn't use that against us.

Backing is not just familly and friend. It can also be allies of convenience.
 
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Yeangst said:
It's likely to be longer lasting than if Meizhen doesn't go all out.
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The way I see it anything that goes beyond Qi's line risks getting Meizhen in trouble. And it wouldn't be enough to protect our friends when we aren't here. Assuming they remain so weak that they NEED protection of course, Su at least seems to have a close relationship with an elder and that counts for something.
 
Nemonowan said:
Now that I think of it, there is another assumption behind the "not care" vote.
Why does everyone think that Meizhen will somehow neutralize YR permanently? As we gave discussed it is rather hard to do within sect rules. Perhaps she just intends to send him to the hospital for some months, long enough for Qi to get in the inner sect and become Cai's retainer. We then would have so much backing that if YR tried anything he would get swatted within the rules. But that would do nothing to help our friends in the outer sect. And that is my point, why should Meizhen care about or even think about THEM? It might even be part of the lesson: if they are ours WE must protect them.
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The convince her option has Ling Qi intervene when she considers Meizhens treatment of yan renshu as going overboard. By Word of God we know that Ling Qi considers torture and permanent physical or spiritiual crippling. This means that the no restraint option Meizhen is likely going to do that to him. So I don't know what you mean by your arguement.

yrsillar said:
Ling Qi would consider permanent physical or spiritual crippling as well as noncombat brutality to be overboard.
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