Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

[Karnax626]

Like, I just caught up only a handful of updates ago, so I'm not as immediately invested as everyone else. But Ling has never truly lost. Ever. Being outmatched by a teacher doesn't count. Fighting a doomed war in a simulation doesn't count. Training with a superior combatant who's a friend doesn't count.

When has she ever lost in a way that was meaningful? That was impactful?

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Main example I can think of off the top of my head was when Sun shanked us in the Thunderdome redux. The times we got spotted on larceny runs might count?

I understand loss(es) being a source of character development, but it's wrong to say that Ling Qi hasn't experienced any.

I really doubt it would work but I just thought of one amusing way combat could play out: activate FVM, Sun Liling walks off the cliff

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I mean, she's probably tougher than the cliff, so I doubt it'd do much.

 

[The3rdCorinthian]

No, we are not. Let's see what are Ling Qi stregths:

1: She can dodge really well. Shamefully, i am 100% sure Liling is still better at hitting.

2: She can soak lots damage, thanks to TRF and a great Qi pool. But again, Liling can deal perfect damage, so she can surpass this.

3: Our debuffs are sopotent than they reach "save or get fucked" territory. But their accurancy is lagging behind a lot, to the point that we can't expect them to land unless Liling rolls the equivalent of a natural 1.

So no, trying to fight her head on is almost certainly a sure way to lose.

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Yeah, and thinking on it, if this was more likely to be an emotional loss than a loss of resources and ability to prepare for the tournament, I'd be down for actually fighting her.

As it is, we'll get mugged from this hard.

And if we fail and still get mugged, we still get some form of loss. I see it as a potential win either way.

 

[SAGrognard]

Oh hey, someone else noticed this.

Like, I just caught up only a handful of updates ago, so I'm not as immediately invested as everyone else. But Ling has never truly lost. Ever. Being outmatched by a teacher doesn't count. Fighting a doomed war in a simulation doesn't count. Training with a superior combatant who's a friend doesn't count.

When has she ever lost in a way that was meaningful? That was impactful?

For the purposes of a story, the protagonist has to eventually fail in order to gain some character growth. Unless the purpose of this is to showcase the effects of constant victory and, at worst, minor setbacks, in which case I'm hoping it's covered more in the future.

As it stands, I don't believe this is handling "what it's like to become a god" as well as "what it's like to embody victory", so the former doesn't preclude loss.

I would love to read a character shift in the MC that comes from being confronted with the consequences of her actions and deciding to deal with it honestly. If she wins, that means something. If she loses, it means more.

[X] ...Stay and fight. If she wants a duel she can have one. You aren't weak anymore.

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I agree. As I said in my previous post superior opponents are the ones you learn the most from.
However, the correct place to do that is in the tournament, not a mountainside with possible creepers hoping to take advantage of a weakened state.

 

[Mother Nyx]

I agree. As I said in my previous post superior opponents are the ones you learn the most from.
However, the correct place to do that is in the tournament, not a mountainside with possible creepers hoping to take advantage of a weakened state.

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Okay, say that's your reasoning, then why in the blue hells are we going up the mountain to Zequing who isn't likely to help and not back down to our friends who would?

 

[The3rdCorinthian]

I agree. As I said in my previous post superior opponents are the ones you learn the most from.
However, the correct place to do that is in the tournament, not a mountainside with possible creepers hoping to take advantage of a weakened state.

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I keep forgetting about whatshisface being there to mug us as well.

 

[Ompa60]

Okay, say that's your reasoning, then why in the blue hells are we going up the mountain to Zequing who isn't likely to help and not back down to our friends who would?

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Because most of us think she will help.

 

[SAGrognard]

Okay, say that's your reasoning, then why in the blue hells are we going up the mountain to Zequing who isn't likely to help and not back down to our friends who would?

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Um you previously quoted my post in which I said I believed the QM that Sun Liling has narsties waiting for exactly that move?
You quoted it so I assume you read it??

 

[The3rdCorinthian]

Okay, say that's your reasoning, then why in the blue hells are we going up the mountain to Zequing who isn't likely to help and not back down to our friends who would?

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Because A) You seem to misunderstand Zequing. She's Cruel and inhuman. Not uncaring.

and B) Because she's got stuff prepared for that, no doubt. And I also don't want to have our house destroyed yet again.

Off topic, but as much as im Shady about Cai...I really hate Sun. Might makes Right pisses me off something fierce.

 

[SITB]

Okay, say that's your reasoning, then why in the blue hells are we going up the mountain to Zequing who isn't likely to help and not back down to our friends who would?

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Did you forget that the entire reason that Ling Qi was cross with Zeqing was because of her attempts to help? She would certainly help Ling Qi, the big question is if Ling Qi would actually reach her (and afterwards how the relationship changes now that Ling Qi owes her and identifies with being under her mantle).

EDIT: RE - Loss: Did people forget the Dark Dreams arc so quickly? And how Elder Jiao rubbed in Ling's face how she failed?

 

[Floom]

Because A) You seem to misunderstand Zequing. She's Cruel and inhuman. Not uncaring.

and B) Because she's got stuff prepared for that, no doubt. And I also don't want to have our house destroyed yet again.

Off topic, but as much as im Shady about Cai...I really hate Sun. Might makes Right pisses me off something fierce.

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To be fair, she's at least honest and self-aware of that. Not an excuse, but it is the world she lives in.

 

[tricholysis]

If a 'no spirit no flying sword' duel was offered I'd take it, but Liling isn't Chu Song...at all. I like Chu but Liling in comparison really is kind of a brute.

It's possible that leading Liling to the Black Pool will peeve Zeqing, since she did warn Ling Qi against getting half of the Outer Mountain up there, which suggests she wants her solitude to be maintained. Revealing the Pool to Liling, who has no reason to keep it secret except if Zeqing spooks her into it, maybe will be what makes Zeqing end these rendezvouses...but other than that, I can't see the argument that it'll make her mad. Sure, she certainly won't solve Ling Qi's problems for her, but she won't totally rebuff Ling Qi immediately.

 

[The3rdCorinthian]

To be fair, she's at least honest and self-aware of that. Not an excuse, but it is the world she lives in.

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Yeah, no, Im not impressed by it.

It only means I'd punch someone with the same mindset but who lies about it over her.

 

[Alectai]

Losing sometimes is fine, but not when the stakes are genuinely life or death. Liling plans to beat us to an inch of our lives and loot us to our skivvies, and Yan Renshu probably wants us dead. It would be entirely in character for him to go for the coup de grace when she's done.

And she's more willing to escalate if she's losing than we are capable of meeting that. She has her super spirit after all, plus any one shot treasures.

So yeah, Zeqing is really the only move that has a non zero chance of us being at least looted to the skin, and at worst crippled or killed.

 

[Erebeal]

As she reached the top of the steep rocky path she had been walking and arrived at the small snow dusted clearing at its top, she stopped dead. At the far end of the stony clearing, some thirty meters away, perched atop a boulder was Sun Liling. The red haired princess wore a plain scarlet silk shirt that stretched tightly over her chest, and baggy black pants of similar material, worked with silver embroidery. Her spear, a demonic looking thing that seemed like it was forged from twisted vines of red metal, rested easily on her shoulder.

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Ok, so I'm going to admit here that one of the things I'm happiest about is that we now have a description of what Sun Liling is wearing these days.

Any, this is great! Our immanent suffering sucks a bit, but we totally deserved this. Honestly, we've been rampaging all over the place far to much, and this kind of consequence was desperately needed for the universe to be remotely credible. And, as @Pandemonious Ivy noted, narratively we do need to lose at some point. That being said, making bad decisions in order to provoke that loss doesn't really make sense. Better that we honestly do what we can to survive, and lose in spite of that if we have to rather than suddenly suffering from testosterone poisoning.

And fighting her is a bad idea. We spar with Meizhen regularly, and she wrecks us. That is the level we should be expecting from Sun. Maybe if we had better spiritual dice, it might be viable. But we don't.

Main example I can think of off the top of my head was when Sun shanked us in the Thunderdome redux. The times we got spotted on larceny runs might count?

I understand loss(es) being a source of character development, but it's wrong to say that Ling Qi hasn't experienced any

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I wouldn't count Thunderdome 2 as a loss for us. Our team won - in no small part due to our actions - and we got sweet recognition and rewards from it.

Also: Dammit Ling Qi. What have I been saying for weeks about how we should be sneaking everywhere? That wasn't just tongue in cheek joking about how to abuse EPC. We are a major target! If they weren't trying to ambush us it would be surprising!

The path up the mountain was winding and steep, but Ling Qi found it nice to walk. She could reach Zeqing's frozen territory much faster with flight of course, but the trip was more pleasant if she slowed down a little to think and take in the crisp air and beauty of the cliffs. With her newest letter to her Mother sent along from the ministry office in town, her thoughts had turned back to the trouble with Zeqing. She was still angry at the snow spirit, but it was tempered now. Trouble remained though. The fact was, Zeqing was much stronger than her, so much so that she really had no defense if she decided to turn on her, and it was difficult to forget that again, knowing that the spirit might throw her into a lethal situation again without even feeling remorse.

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[Shadowward]

[X] Bound up the cliffs, heading for the black pool. Zeqing will be waiting, and Sun Liling is no match for her. It's a long run though.

 

[NullVoid]

[X] Bound up the cliffs, heading for the black pool. Zeqing will be waiting, and Sun Liling is no match for her. It's a long run though.

Zeqing should at least be able to counter Sun Liling's murderspirit, so up we go.

 

[strauss]

We have statically run and 'avoided confrontation' more than we have actually stood up for ourselves and fought.
Look at every single one of the situations, lay them all out and tell me I'm wrong.

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Sure:
*Elder Zhou's first test, ambushed enemies
* Elder Zhou's second test, ambushed enemies
*Elder Zhou's third test, took a by
*Vent Golem, killed it
*Huang Da, fought him
*Hong Lin, fought
*Kang Ziaho's minions, fough
*Serpent treasure, fought all fights we could fight except daddy tortoise
*Moonfill, avoided tunnels
*Moonfill, played tag
*Thunderdom redux, fought
*Disappearance/investigation, fought and pushed on
* Growing Pains, talked to Chu Song, Fought, helped friends, retreated => neutral
* Dark Dreams, be hyper agressive all thorought.
* Infiltration of fortress, went there ourself

So yeah, you are wrong.

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Thoroughly proved utterly wrong in all accounts and what you do? Pretend it never happened and keep spewing bullshit and blatant lies. No this is not how discussions either concede you were wrong or try to put forth arguments against it.

 

[The3rdCorinthian]

If a 'no spirit no flying sword' duel was offered I'd take it, but Liling isn't Chu Song...at all. I like Chu but Liling in comparison really is kind of a brute.

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This sums my gripes with her up nicely.

Chu is willing to fight on an even keel. To test others, and push them to rise above. While power still matters, there's something to be said for showing restraint and your willingness to hold back in the spirit of fairness.

Liling has none of that, because in Lilings world, theres only strength and those who can't use it.

Any, this is great! Our immanent suffering sucks a bit, but we totally deserved this. Honestly, we've been rampaging all over the place far to much, and this kind of consequence was desperately needed for the universe to be remotely credible. And, as @Pandemonious Ivy noted, narratively we do need to lose at some point. That being said, making bad decisions in order to provoke that loss doesn't really make sense. Better that we honestly do what we can to survive, and lose in spite of that if we have to rather than suddenly suffering from testosterone poisoning.

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Agreed. I want to suffer an emotional loss. I want us to enter the tournament and end up like Ochako From MHA: Put up an amazing fight, with impressive skills, but lose hard.

 

[Mother Nyx]

Because A) You seem to misunderstand Zequing. She's Cruel and inhuman. Not uncaring.

and B) Because she's got stuff prepared for that, no doubt. And I also don't want to have our house destroyed yet again.

Off topic, but as much as im Shady about Cai...I really hate Sun. Might makes Right pisses me off something fierce.

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You're the one that misunderstands Zequing. I'm not saying she's uncaring. However, she's also proven as someone who wants us to pull our self up rather than spoon feed us.
If you look back, I like Zequing and defended her actions when everyone was cursing her for the blizzard thing. So, as someone who likes her, she's still unlikely to get involved.

She likes us, but in the grand scheme of things, it's just two cultivators fighting in front of her, why should she interfere when the one who she does like responded so negatively to her help, to her?
Like, seriously. In her own way she went out her way to impart her wisdom upon us, to help us reach our breakthrough in that instance and we get upset with her.
Yes, it's a case of human to spirit miscommunication. Yes, it's a minor thing that would easily be solved by a small conversation. Yes, we were on the way to have that conversation.

The problem is that voters are expecting help from someone whose relationship with us has not only been set back, but has always been hindered by the fact that one of the participants doesn't think in a human way.
If we have to run, running back down the mountain is the best idea.

 

[Mother Nyx]

Thoroughly proved utterly wrong in all accounts and what you do? Pretend it never happened and keep spewing bullshit and blatant lies. No this is not how discussions either concede you were wrong or try to put forth arguments against it.

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I refused to acknowledge this because it's a bias list. This quest is over 400k words and has 96 thread marks, that list does not have every single confrontation that we have ever had, which is what I requested.
So, no, you do not get to play me off, and yes, you need to stay in your lane.

 

[Floom]

Also, I think this proves how much we could use a dedicated anti-scrying/sense concealment art, as if people can just scry on us at will, we will never be able to leave our house without everyone and their mothers ambushing us. Perhaps a bit of an exaggeration, but it's not paranoia if someone is really out to get us, and Sun Liling and Yan Renshu are fitting that bill well. Course, working another art into our current plans is not exactly simple, but it is something to seriously consider working into our current plans.

 

[Yeangst]

This idea that Ling Qi needs a loss for character development would be sort of valid if she kept getting in over her head and winning anyway.

But that's not the sitiuation at all. She usually doesn't get in over her head, but when the thread decides to go Leroy Jenkins, she typically books it when things get hot.

I can see the appeal of fighting because you think Liling will refrain from hurting Ling Qi too much, but you people are saying that we need to get in a figt we know we'll lose so that we can learn not to get into fights we know we'll lose? Seriously?

One strategy I don't know if we've considered is just using Crescent's Grace to run down the cliffside. They'll definitely be prepared for us to fly, they've seen that, but I'm not 100% sold on the idea that they will be prepared for us to run. Crescent's Grace is a really good movement art. Makes us even faster, adds six defensive dice, ignores 90 degree angles and terrain penalties, which means ice and snow and suchlike and also lets us cross water.

That's crazy, and it's not the kind of movement ability they'd expect- remember, one level ago it was only useful for 45 degree angles, not sheer vertical cliffs.

If we can last a turn, we can activate 'Formless Shade' and find some crevices to move through that they won't be able to follow us through so easily or track us so well. Sun Liling also sucks at being subtle and there is a good chance if we even get close to the main area that somebody is going to come riding to our rescue.

'One With Shadow' isn't going to cut it, as it is cancelled by taking damage.

[X] Take a dive off the cliff and head for the safety of your allies. You can't honestly believe that Sun Liling doesn't have some countermeasures for this though.
-[X] Rather than using your gown to try to fly as they'd expect, activate 'Crescent's Grace' and run/jump down the cliff at speed. Take advantage of the cover on the cliff to limit the directions you can be attacked.

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Unfortunately I don't think this will make a difference. All we'd be doing is taking an alternate route to the same place, and said alternate route is still visible from the original route.

 

[Camellia]

I refused to acknowledge this because it's a bias list. This quest is over 400k words and has 96 thread marks, that list does not have every single confrontation that we have ever had, which is what I requested.
So, no, you do not get to play me off, and yes, you need to stay in your lane.

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You want us to list every confrontation over the course of the quest which as you said was over 400k words. And when someone went over and drew up a list of the major confrontations you say it's biased. I'm not sure what you want. I don't see anything really big missing from the list? Could you please draw up a list of the times we ran away then? Or at least point out three that's not on the list?

 

[drake_azathoth]

I refused to acknowledge this because it's a bias list. This quest is over 400k words and has 96 thread marks, that list does not have every single confrontation that we have ever had, which is what I requested.
So, no, you do not get to play me off, and yes, you need to stay in your lane.

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Really? Well, that's dandy, if there are so many example of Ling Qi running from a big fight you can put that in your rebuttal.

If the list is biased, make your own unbiased list.

Or you can whine like a baby, refuse to concede the point, and also refuse to put any backing behind your unsubstantiated claims even when someone asks for proof that your claims have substance... Which, given that someone just put forth the effort to cite numerous examples that your claim is false, proves how foolish your arguments are.

 

[Klaus]

I refused to acknowledge this because it's a bias list. This quest is over 400k words and has 96 thread marks, that list does not have every single confrontation that we have ever had, which is what I requested.
So, no, you do not get to play me off, and yes, you need to stay in your lane.

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Then it should be easy for you to find a list of confrontations we did run from. It's time to put your money where your mouth is.