I wish we'd get dragon's pov. it would be the perfect way to see the reactions of prt for this entire day from an insiders perspective and also someone that actually understands the scale of everything that was revealed/happened.
Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)
- Thread starter LordRoustabout
- Start date
Yep there's more like therapy and his planned trip to Newfoundland to see if he can get a hint about the mastering on Dragon. March's plan is explained before
It's dumber than that what they plan to do is bust into Coil's base and have Noelle clone them then do the cluster draining trick where they basically cover themselves in the blood of their clustermate and basically lie in a bed together for hours (basically a whole night) and essentially the drained members power is weakened to the point of barely existing while the power they got from that shard is strengthened. They are doing this under the belief it's what Joe's been doing so think like him they'll get new powers out of it while also strengthening the ones they have to Apeiron lvs.
Needless to say it's an incredibly dumb idea that even if Uber uses alchemy to fully restore March before it they shouldn't get the opportunity to try and if if they somehow did they absolutely shouldn't have the time to do it and even if they somehow do it shouldn't work for literally so many reasons I will outright drop the story if it does.
No luck needed March's plan is so dumb it's chances of success are 0.0% because there's no way they should get the chance to try and there's no way it will work.
- Location
- Behind you
But then the US medical healthcare system said: Free medicine? In THIS country!? Sign the Kill Order on this commie or by Gods holy name we will nuke Brockton Bay!
God, that would end... SO we'll for them it's not even funny!
Ostentatiousness
I am the man who arranges the blocks.
- Location
- The half of Australia where desert meets ocean.
God this is great.
ExploerTM
Ruin has found you at last!
- Location
- Russia, Perm
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Imagine if Joe rolls whole ass The Oldest House lol. Or, no, better, The Service Weapon. If Joe undoes all restrictions The Board placed upon it, it already might be enough to oneshot Zion. And if Joe upgrades it, it will definitely oneshot Zion.
Oh, crazy idea: if Joe can recover the complete atman/soul/memory clone of a host from a passenger, and build them a new body, can he resurrect previous hosts? Like do the shards keep them from cycle to cycle? Could he find the records of an alien who was host during of the last cycle and restore them?
Kellcat
Occasional Ex-Lurker
- Location
- Texas
I suppose it's good to know that Joe remains human and with all the failings and hypocrisies that brings. Given there were multiple days of the approach to the Slaughterhouse 9 being "eh let them murder and torture people until they reach Brockton Bay", and even now the Slaughterhouse 9 have current captive(s?) living in torment and no action is being taken to rescue them....well.
From any sort of objective view of the situation Joe really has no ground to stand on to take "this kid was being tortured but I didn't actually know about it" as some sort of major violation, but it's very human to take offense at what someone else does - especially if it's something you don't like (but need to make excuses for) that you have done yourself.
It's more than a bit surprising that he hasn't even looked into the situation surrounding Coil - even to the extent of "Survey, please look into this, but don't tell me unless I need to know" as with parahuman identities. I thought he had supposedly fixed the Doormat Disadvantage.
Shadow Archon
Protoss Preserver
- Location
- Louisiana
You do know that Joe has essentially put the Nine in a bubble and the only people they are running into are Droid Human Replicas Joe has made that are decoys that have no sapience or an ability to feel pain? They just mimic it to the point that even Bonesaw can't tell they're not human.
The only captives they have are the capes that make up Bonesaw's creations, which Joe is going to fix once he slaughters the Slaughterhouse.
The Shallow
Shallow, Yet Deep
- Location
- Your Universe
- Pronouns
- She/They
...what?
Genuinley, what story are you reading?
Joe made scores of fake human-shaped robots piloted by fleet that are fiat-backed to fool even the deepest examination, and has basically scripted the S9's actions. They've not gotten anywhere near a real person since.
Also, as far as I know there are no current captives, just biomechanical terrors bonesaw created from people the 9 killed. Including Murder Rat as the most fixable case, but Joe already has a plan for that. Maybe it's not the best that he's not immediatley saving Mouse Protector, but he's not just leaving her to rot for shiggles.
He hasn't looked into it, not because he's a doormat, but because he's trying to not fuck with Lisa; she's trying to hold onto her independence, and taking point on this. Survey almost certainly knows that Coil has kidnapped the Mayor's neice, but probably just concluded 'political prisoner', since she'd have no reason to suspect cape. And there'd be no priority in scrying on Dinah given everything else they have going on.
Again, what story have you been reading?
The nine are having their route guided and so everyone that they come across is actually Fleet controlling a fake body which does have the advantage of the 48 hr restore so when the fight comes around the stuff Bonesaw made from their bodies is going to go poof. That means the only possible captives are the cape hybrids like murderrat if they retain any consciousness.
Joe's anger at Lisa is going to be that kidnapping was something he explicitly forbade kidnapping as one of the terms of their initial agreement which the undersiders were in fact party to and Lisa has knowingly been sitting on. This is also probably going to be made worse by the fact that Coil prefers his mercs to have a socially unacceptable vice because he's willing to supply them and it serves as a deep loyalty hook and among those vices is paedophiles.
Additionally, he's long past the point Coil would be anything resembling a challenge something even Lisa is aware of but she didn't inform Joe of him because she wanted more time to steal his money and to saviour the feeling of being able to call Joe down on him and then he got Noelle. However, due to Lisa's words, the other stuff he's dealing with and her control issues he's been avoiding looking into Coil so he's not going to be happy to learn about there actually being a kid suffering because of it.
Kellcat
Occasional Ex-Lurker
- Location
- Texas
I've been reading this story.
Yes, right now, all interactions the 9 are having are with fakes.
Key words, there - right now. Before those fake people were introduced, the nine were being tracked (by Survey) in part by the trail of bodies they left. Eventually (for a a day or so) that shifted to "no more deaths - we'll act to prevent that if necessary", and then that shifted to the meat robots.
Initially, however, that was not the case, and that was a deliberate decision not to escalate.
Even with the current situation, that still leaves the capes (and possible non-capes) that make up Bonesaw's creations, which are being left in Bonesaw's tender care instead of being retrieved or healed. This is also a deliberate decision not to escalate.
Yes, it's horrible that Dinah is in Coil's grasp. But. Judging Tattletale for leaving Dinah in Coil's care rather than immediately coming to him to flip the table is either going to be a judgement from the angle of "god..I've done this, too, and when I knew what was happening", or from the angle of human emotional reaction - possibly a reaction increased because he made the same choice but with more information available.
Shadow Archon
Protoss Preserver
- Location
- Louisiana
So, your problem is Joe not immediately going out into the world and swinging his weight around everywhere, damn the consequences?
Because the main reason Joe didn't do that is because he knows he'd have to essentially fight the entire Protectorate if their Thinkers freak out from him being proactive. And thus create even more death and destruction based on the chaos and panic that would create.
Joe's strong, but not fix the entire country with the snap of his fingers strong.
I feel like Joe has a very good reason why he's not doing that... and Lisa clearly doesn't, especially since Lisa made an agreement with Joe.
I can somewhat see your logic, but it doesn't quite hold up.
1. Joe is in no way responsible for or is in any way connected to the Slaughterhouse Nine. He has no influence on their actions and is not in any way responsible for deaths they may have caused halfway across the country. Once Joe decided to intervene, he has prevented any additional damage, is planning to repair what damage can be repaired (Murder Rat), and is working to eliminate the threat of the S9 once and for all in a way that doesn't make everything else actively worse.
2. Lisa actively participated in the events that led to Dinah's kidnapping (as a distraction). She has deliberately concealed Coil's role (and her own) in the kidnapping (to the extent she's given it any thought at all). She is abusing Joe's trust and deliberately keeping information from him in order to further her own agenda.
These two things are not the same.
Especially the fact that they've all been knowingly sitting on it. (Remember, Taylor has been keeping it secret from Joe too, even though she thinks that rescuing Dinah is the "super important" thing that Joe's thinker power tells him she's going to do.)
I'm suspecting that a key point in Joe's tear-down of Lisa is going to be "if you'd come to me after you figured it out, and said 'sorry, but it seems that the boss used us as a distraction to carry out a kidnapping without our knowledge', then I'd have forgiven you and helped to rescue the victim. Instead, you doubled-down and just made things worse with your incessant need to always be in charge."
Not tracked, tracked down. One implies that they allowed 9 to keep on killing so that they can keep a tab on them, the other implies what actually happened, Survey used data of 9's killings that already happened to find them. One allows additional killings for the benefit, the other just follows the pre-existing clues. At no point, Joe's approach was "eh let them murder and torture people until they reach Brockton Bay", he has gone for "no more death" the second S9 were found.
And Joe "leaving" the capes to Bonesaw is not the same as Lisa knowing about Dinah and not informing Joe. One is a "I know about the people suffering, I know the solution, and I'm going to solve it the second I can do this without causing additional suffering", the other is "I know the person suffering... but I have other problems, so fuck it". Joe can very much judge that, from the position of "You knew it and didn't even plan to do anything, what the fuck Lisa", or the position "You supposed to be the thinker who prides herself on knowing everything, how did that get under your nose, what the fuck Lisa" to even the position of "You took responsibility to look into Coil's business, and you did not even notice THIS, what the fuck Lisa". A lot of valid positions for judging, with no connection to how Joe handled S9.
Nobody in Undersiders but Lisa knows that Coil kidnapped Dinah, and Lisa doesn't know why he did this or what he is doing with her. Remember, Undersides are yet to be even introduced to their boss. Pretty sure if Taylor learned about Dinah, she would flip even harder than in canon. Hell, Alec and Rachel might flip with her, just for the company.
Shadow Archon
Protoss Preserver
- Location
- Louisiana
Does Taylor even know about Dinah?
As far as I recall, she only learns about Dinah when she meets Coil face to face in canon. And that happened right before Leviathan attacked, and basically involved Taylor leaving the Undersiders briefly before the Shadow Stalker identity reveal pushed her back to them. Right now, she's focused on just uncovering their boss.
Kellcat
Occasional Ex-Lurker
- Location
- Texas
I don't believe I stated "a problem".
I'm observing that it is a very human trait to blame others more harshly for actions that they have taken when one has taken those same actions, disliked doing so, and had to come up with justifications why doing so is the correct thing to do. Joe isn't escalating because in doing so, there is a threat he is somewhat aware of (it exists, but he doesn't know much about it) that he believes he cannot defeat and that it could result in destroying the worlds. Plural. Because of that, as well as because of other lesser issues from escalation thanks to capes, he is making choices that he knows not to be... I guess "ethically desired" would be a phrasing? He has a very good reason to do so, since "the death of everything" is a pretty major fail state, but it's still resulting in him performing actions he does not like (as well as not performing actions he would like). Sacrificing the few for the sake of the many.
This isn't just a Slaughterhouse 9 thing - it's been alluded to many times as to why he isn't taking X action that could result in saving and/or improving lives. People are suffering and dying because Joe has judged that helping them will result in Worse Things Happening. That isn't to say "oh, Joe is evil for doing so" or anything approaching it; it's saying "Joe is dealing with a horrible and complex Trolley Problem and there are no perfect answers." As his power grows, he's already shown that he's willing to expand the actions he takes to what he thinks he can get away with without causing a cascading failure.
Lisa participated in a bank robbery. Coil used that bank robbery as a distraction in order to stage a kidnapping - you will note that Lisa did not perform a kidnapping, did not orchestrate a kidnapping, did not order a kidnapping, or even know about the kidnapping until after the fact. Tattletale is responsible for her decisions after that point, but at the same time, she's also in the same "but escalation" trap according to her information - remember that Lisa does not have our information, but only her information. If I'm remembering who knows what, then Lisa is aware of Noelle and how Noelle clones capes, and that is a significant motivation for avoiding escalation - because if Noelle manages to eat and clone Joe, then there's an Evil Joe around that will try to destroy everything.
Lisa is not aware that Joe's powers would not be cloned. Lisa is not aware of (anywhere near) the full extent of Joe's capabilities and how simple it would be to deal with Noelle - she is specifically avoiding non-public information so that Coil does not get tipped off to that non-public information in order to use it. She is also not (if I've got my timelines right) aware that Dinah is being drugged/used the way she is.
While I'm sure that her own neuroses (at least from a trigger/mental issue perspective and possibly also from a Shard Influence perspective) are weighing in on the scale, her current belief is that one girl being held captive for whatever blackmail reasons isn't enough to justify the risk of Apeiron getting eaten and cloned and that clone releasing all of Apeiron's tech and capability on a destructive rampage.
A major problem is that she isn't aware that that risk doesn't currently exist - did that risk exist, it would absolutely be something to be avoided. And, of course, her control issues aren't helping with the possibility of just handing it off to Joe; I've actually been impressed at her character growth over the past week-ish in how she's been dealing with Joe, though she obviously could use some help - insert parahuman therapy meme here.
We don't know what her decision would be if she were aware of how easily Joe could deal with the situation because she isn't aware of that.
Once he started Making Choices regarding the S9, he became responsible for the outcomes of those choices - that's what we're all responsible for, and it's really all we're all responsible for: we make our choices, and we live with the consequences. Joe started out with a decision to let them do their thing - "There would be a cost in the short term, but it wasn't on me," is a quote - from what feels like a mostly intellectual direction. Then, closer to the situation, it became emotional rather than purely intellectual, and "not my fault" became "no more deaths" - though part of that might also have been the escalation of powers between the two points in time.
There's a reason that the Trolley Problem gets argued about so much - and why so many people hate it and try to find cutesy answers like "if I pull the lever after the front wheels cross, the trolley will get stuck and noone will get hit".
Joe is planning to repair what damage can be repaired later, not immediately, and thus leaving Bonesaw's current victims to suffer constantly (unless the moaning in that scene didn't indicate suffering, which I think not). He is doing this to prevent further escalation, which he judges would have a sufficiently negative outcome it must be prevented. He plans to eventually rescue Murder Rat and the other projects and restore survivors as a secondary objective beyond stopping the 9.
Lisa is leaving Dinah in her situation (which she IIRC believes to be that of a political hostage) until she believes the problem can be solved without Clone!Apeiron being a thing. She believes Clone!Apeiron to be a sufficiently negative outcome it must be prevented. She plans to eventually see Dinah freed as a secondary objective beyond stopping Coil and Noelle. (Given her knowledge of Joe, leaving Dinah to die in the mess cannot possibly be part of the plan.)
There are, quite bluntly, significant parallels. Further, given the believed situations of the not-going-to-be-rescued-until-later people in the two situations, you could make a significant case that Joe's decision towards Bonesaw's victims is far harsher than Tattletale's - Bonesaw's projects are stated to be moaning in pain while Joe is watching, while Tattletale's current belief is presumably that Dinah is an otherwise unharmed leverage/political prisoner. If Tattletale knew/knows Dinah's actual situation, that would make the situation a bit closer to Joe's decision.
(edit 2 - lost a paragraph) Keeping the information from Joe, assuming she even thinks it's important enough to bring up or hide, keeps Joe from going off half-cocked for a rescue, which could result in Clone!Apeiron. She may not even consider a short term imprisonment something worth specifically bringing up.
(edit: typos whee)
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Taylor doesn't know about Dinah yet.
Despite how many chapters its been since the villain summit, it's only been at most a few days. And Taylor has been working with the Undersiders, getting assaulted by Emma, and preparing for the 'thing only she can do.' All the while, Coil is dealing with trying to prevent Joe/Apeiron from becoming the newest Butcher out of sheer, pants wetting terror of the possiblity, managing the Traveler's with false promises, and working on securing his rule of Brockton Bay in his own way.
Adding onto this is Lisa. Who is busy working for Coil, trying to keep Joe from doing something insane (such as taking out the S9 for example), trying to keep the Celestial Forge crew from getting involved with the Teeth in fear of one of them becoming the Butcher, and her plans to take over Coil's...well everything.
Shadow Archon
Protoss Preserver
- Location
- Louisiana
Okay, I can see your point now more clearly. However, I still don't think Lisa's and Joe's actions are equivalent. Both of them are doing it for similar reasons of trying to avoid an even worse situation from arising.
Joe is withholding action, until the Nine reach the City limits. And then he's going to stomp them flat and help those they've harmed. Joe knows this task is well within his abilities. Joe's not directly responsible for what the Nine does, and has actively mitigated their attempts to harm people going forward. Joe however doesn't answer to anyone.
Lisa is withholding knowledge, until she can get control of the situation... which she won't ever be able to control. Lisa is flying by the seat of her pants, and doesn't have a clear plan in the works. Lisa is also indirectly responsible for what Coil has done, because she works for him and thus shares the blame for what his organization did, especially since her actions at the bank are the distraction that led to Dinah being kidnapped. She doesn't know Dinah is being drugged, but Lisa, also, answers to Joe. They made an agreement about future actions the Undersiders take due to the Bank Robbery and them using his gear, and Joe mentioned kidnapping as something that was unacceptable.
Lord WoG said:
There are comparisons that can be made between the two, but there's enough nuances about them, that I don't think they're equivalent. Thus, Joe can't be a hypocrite for calling out Lisa. The situations, while close on the surface, aren't the same.
I will note that when Lisa does find out what is happening to Dinah, she's going to confess everything she knows to Joe.
Lord WoG said:
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Kellcat
Occasional Ex-Lurker
- Location
- Texas
The 'control' thing I'm reading as mostly a trauma/trigger damage thing. Therapy would help, but a runaway street rat wasn't going to get that, and a coerced super villain employee isn't likely to get that, either. A lot of Lisa's situation I read as a combination of trigger hangups and fear, meaning that while she might be able to manage a smart decision, a wise decision seems...unlikely. Neither running into trigger hangups, nor being terrified of making the wrong choice is particularly conducive to calm and logical introspection.
Your statement regarding Lisa working for Coil is... unfair on multiple levels. She's not committed to Coil's success, but instead was recruited quite literally at gunpoint. She hates him and would very much like to see him fail. She is not responsible for Coil's actions - any aid she provides to Coil is under duress and in fear of her life. That's further a situation that would quickly produce learned helplessness - when prepwork for plans you make to betray the boss suddenly falls apart because he questioned/tortured you in another timeline...? well. Fear of Coil isn't going to be helping her decision making capabilities, either.
You state that "Lisa answers to Joe", which...isn't either entirely correct or entirely wrong. And the 'correct' portion of that seems like it's likely adding to the problem. At least as I read it, she ran away from home because her parents used/controlled her, got picked up at gunpoint by Coil who continued to use/control her, and now if she "answers to Joe", obviously he will use and control her. (fear. yay.) She isn't in a good mental space, and the time crunch isn't going to give her time to get away from it. Turning over the situation to Joe would mean (at least in her head) that she would then be under Joe's control, which...she's trying to free herself. Really, Joe shouldn't be giving her as much free rein as he is, but at the same time, not doing so would be a problem given her apparent issues.
From the discussions between Lisa and Joe, she comes across as believing that if she spills everything she has to him, he'll act. This is not an unlikely assumption, given he's repeatedly told the Undersiders "nope got no plans" and then there have sudden major actions. She also fears that will result in him getting nommed by Noelle and considers that a catastrophic outcome. She's used to being the smartest person in the room (and only now starting to get broken of that), which isn't going to make her get second opinions on that...and even if it would, she's got noone but Joe to get the second opinion from.
I think the only real differences I can see in their situations are:
- Joe has a team he trusts and relies on and works with, while Tattletale does not. Moreover, I get the feeling Lisa is broken enough she just doesn't trust. That means Lisa doesn't get the level of mental help and/or doublechecks that Joe does.
- Joe has that rarest of Worm superpowers: therapy. He's been going to therapy, and has kept going to therapy, while Lisa is, once again, alone and not healing.
Lisa's too scared and untrusting to get help (i.e. from Joe) and that's why it's all going to fall apart.
Don't forget all the cool powers are locked behind healthy if suspiciously shonen mindsets, a direct invert to all parahumans
- Location
- Gladstone, OR
ZFighter18
I'm not a god. I AM WHAT A GOD PRAYS TO.
- Location
- Maryland
I've got some recharacterization to do. Or at least some middle ground to form. I really had been suckered in with fanon Miss Militia
MagnificentMind
To Live is to Suffer
You're either up for some rock climbing or giving piggyback rides. No in between. Best of both worlds I say.So, I did this sketch for the discord last night, on spec. I don't anticipate adding much to it if at all- but I don't think people realize how stark a difference 4'11" is to 8'6".
