Regular hybrid on amplifiers/imploders is probably okay, but I'm a bit wary about haywires. Anyway, what I think is our panoply of grav and plasma weapons + what we'll soon have developed by bonesigners is a good wide arsenal. One thing lacking is long range indirect fire weapon but the rest of niches is covered. We don't really need more wide - we need notable improvements in niches we have. And that is locked behind going all in.
A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Uh, Haywires are very useful utility options. Being able to absolutely fuck up just about any other army in the game--like with Haywire Grenades mind you--is the kind of Fun Prank you can play on all kinds of assholes and make them have a bad time.
- Location
- Utrecht
Those supplementary techs are useful though, and we are going to want them anyway.
It's likely that the miniaturized power supply will knock off some of the cost of other miniaturization projects...
Not to mention that we could find a few interesting techs out it
Sure, but it has to be a notable improvement in anti vehicles capabilities than a thruster lance + aimbot, or a melta we're soon going to have. And for that to be true we'll have to spend AP.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
You're misunderstanding me. Any form of technology more advanced than a chemical slugthrower has a Bad Time in a Haywire Field.
This isn't just "Shorts out electronics", this is full out "I play a funny prank on physics in their area of effect and it causes a small shift in constants, which causes any technology more advanced than a fucking sword or a black powder gun to become vastly less accurate or reliable at best.
Why do you think it's so expensive?
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Sorry, just a quick note, but unless I'm misunderstanding something this may not actually be the case?
The Enhance Industry is two-three turns. Forge actions reduce one-three turns. If we start it this turn, get a three turn cost, and only roll a one turn reduction, we'll still need to finish it off next turn, I think? Obviously that's kind of a worst case, but it does mean there's a potential 2BAP variance to account for in potential multi-turn planning (one less gained from finished industry, one more spent on development upkeep cost), and reduces the BAP savings on the Forge boosted over non-Forge boosted development.
I agree we need power distribution done first of the Engine Repairs, and soon since we don't know how long training will take, but given that Seer Circle will cost four BAP this turn and two next turn if we do it this turn, and likewise a non-forge Enhance Industry would cost three this turn and one next turn, I think we can afford to do two Power Distribution next turn instead of one this turn and one next. Either way, it's going to take at least one more turn after that before we can start the training actions.
Unless you were not planning to start the Seer Circle next turn either, and put even more BAP into the Power Distribution? I'm definitely against that plan.
Sorry, to be clear, let me restate my position here: I'm not arguing for three industry, I'm arguing for not dropping Seer Circle. I'd prefer the second forge action go to it over another industry, but primarily my position here is just saying "we should start on the Seer Circle ASAP." The other BAP suggestions were aimed at "how to find spare BAP for second industry compromise you seemed to be leaning toward without removing Seer Circle."
Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
Correct. There are eight overall "classes" of hull, at the moment you have designs for five of them, specifically Battleships, Cruisers & Light Cruisers for Capital ships (With Grand Cruisers being the fourth that you don't have a design for), and Frigates & Destroyers for Escorts (lacking in both the larger Raider type and the miniscule Corvette type.)
Note that if you design a new hull, you will absolutely be able to pick one of the size classes you do not have at the moment.
Part of the cost of constructing infrastructure is recruiting and training the people who actually operate it---if you are doing multiple of the same action and roll "extra" turn reduction, Forge actions can "roll over" into extra actions or discounts (essentially, you always get full benefit from forge actions and cannot "waste" them going over on repeatable actions)
Essentially, throwing the Forge at things is a straight time reduction of three turns at most per action, but for stuff like Enhanced Industry, if you roll high and have "extra" turns off, it can get extra actions as well. EG, if you do a project that normally takes 2 turns, and roll a 3, it finishes immediately/that turn and also starts a second one that would finish in the normal span. (In the context of Enhance Industry, for example, this is representing the Forge being able to churn out the physical infrastructure faster than you can recruit slash train people to use it.)
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
If that happens, then it can't be helped, it means we got the Worst Possible Outcome on two consecutive dice. I'd rather have them on something useful than something critical though.
But no, I don't think we want to kick the can down the road any further for getting a lot of these Basics of the Basics level projects sorted out. Now's the best time, because we don't have any obvious calamities right now, so we can spare a chunk of AP to get those out of the way.
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- Location
- Germany
[ ] Draft: Eldary Industries v4
-[ ][STEWARD] Move Existing Councils (5 AP)
-[ ][STEWARD] Manage Diplomatic Affairs (2 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Replace Primary Power Distribution Control (2 AP each, 4 Max)
-[][BONESINGER] Develop Basic Grenades (1 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Enhance Industry (3 AP) x2
--[ ][FORGE] Use the Forge (-1d3 Turns to Completion) x2
-[ ][BONESINGER] Seeing Circle (4 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Continue ship repair (1 AP) [Strongly recommended]
-[ ][BONESINGER] Continue ship refits (1 AP)
-[ ][SEER] Seeing Circle (2 AP)
-[ ][SEER] The Eye of Tzeentch (8 AP)
-[ ][SEEKER] Grav-Gun Hybridization
-- [ ] Perfect Hybridization (6 AP, ?? turns)
-[ ][SEEKER] Reverse-engineer Haywire Weapons
--[ ] Haywire Guns (2 AP)
--[ ] Haywire Bombs (4 AP)
-[ ][WARRIOR] The Burden of Command (1 AP)
-[ ][WARRIOR] Design a Light Capital (Cruiser or Light Cruiser) (2 AP)x2
-[ ][WARRIOR] Chassis Militarization (2 AP)x2
-[ ][WARRIOR] Develop Refit Profiles (1 AP)x3
-[ ][WARRIOR] Deploy forces to conduct an exploration and salvage mission in the Kronite System
--[ ] Send 1 Combat Brig, 4 Battle Carracks, 10 Assault Ketches, and 20 Lance Sloops, Zahr-Tann's 15th Scout Fleet is to assist as they are able and provide early warning in case any local Problems decide to start coming our way.
--[ ] Blades of Isha are to be deployed as a precautionary measure and to ensure the security of our investigators in case anything nasty is still living in those wrecks, their skills in close quarters combat will be valuable then.
---[ ] This is not to be a combat operation despite the forces being deployed, our objective is to salvage any artifacts from the human wreckage that may provide useful insights for our own Seekers, sure, it's crude and poorly developed--but the core principles are still useful, and we're hardly in a position to be picky for sources of how to rebuild our forge-craft without the blessings of the Phoenix Court. Withdraw if there is any significant risk of sustaining damage.
-[][WARRIOR] Send small force to Ectosa to disable the terraforming tech, no contact with the natives.
--[] Send 1 Combat brig, 2 Battle Carrack, 5 Nettle Class Destroyer, 10 Lance Cutter
--[] Send 1st Heavy Militia and 1 Militia warhost to disable the systems on the ground
-[][WARRIOR] Deploy a small fleet made up of war ketch to K'Phra. The system is a target for the nearby orks to raid and as such also should make for a good system to test our war ketches.
--[] Send 20 War Ketch
I think the last iteration from my side.
BAP wise 2 EH, + Seer Circle + AP to the engine + grenades.
I am not doing anything that would include the torps, missiles or melta weapons so they don't need to be taken this turn.
Apart from that well go for the perfect hybrid, don't do the haywire fields because frankly we already AOE covered and are good when it comes to defense against all kinds of smart weaponry.
When it comes to sending out our military (which is free).
I added Ectosa to disable the terraforming tech that is causing problems, pretty much because it is free/doesn't cost us anything and I do kind of want to help out in the background, instead of just watching people die in mass/things getting worse.
K'Phra is a bit more dicey, but I want some performance test from our war ketch, their Holo-Fields should allow them to choose their engagements + disengage as wanted. Also might help out the humans there to stand up against the orks for longer which would also be good for us.
-[ ][STEWARD] Move Existing Councils (5 AP)
-[ ][STEWARD] Manage Diplomatic Affairs (2 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Replace Primary Power Distribution Control (2 AP each, 4 Max)
-[][BONESINGER] Develop Basic Grenades (1 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Enhance Industry (3 AP) x2
--[ ][FORGE] Use the Forge (-1d3 Turns to Completion) x2
-[ ][BONESINGER] Seeing Circle (4 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Continue ship repair (1 AP) [Strongly recommended]
-[ ][BONESINGER] Continue ship refits (1 AP)
-[ ][SEER] Seeing Circle (2 AP)
-[ ][SEER] The Eye of Tzeentch (8 AP)
-[ ][SEEKER] Grav-Gun Hybridization
-- [ ] Perfect Hybridization (6 AP, ?? turns)
-[ ][SEEKER] Reverse-engineer Haywire Weapons
--[ ] Haywire Guns (2 AP)
--[ ] Haywire Bombs (4 AP)
-[ ][WARRIOR] The Burden of Command (1 AP)
-[ ][WARRIOR] Design a Light Capital (Cruiser or Light Cruiser) (2 AP)x2
-[ ][WARRIOR] Chassis Militarization (2 AP)x2
-[ ][WARRIOR] Develop Refit Profiles (1 AP)x3
-[ ][WARRIOR] Deploy forces to conduct an exploration and salvage mission in the Kronite System
--[ ] Send 1 Combat Brig, 4 Battle Carracks, 10 Assault Ketches, and 20 Lance Sloops, Zahr-Tann's 15th Scout Fleet is to assist as they are able and provide early warning in case any local Problems decide to start coming our way.
--[ ] Blades of Isha are to be deployed as a precautionary measure and to ensure the security of our investigators in case anything nasty is still living in those wrecks, their skills in close quarters combat will be valuable then.
---[ ] This is not to be a combat operation despite the forces being deployed, our objective is to salvage any artifacts from the human wreckage that may provide useful insights for our own Seekers, sure, it's crude and poorly developed--but the core principles are still useful, and we're hardly in a position to be picky for sources of how to rebuild our forge-craft without the blessings of the Phoenix Court. Withdraw if there is any significant risk of sustaining damage.
-[][WARRIOR] Send small force to Ectosa to disable the terraforming tech, no contact with the natives.
--[] Send 1 Combat brig, 2 Battle Carrack, 5 Nettle Class Destroyer, 10 Lance Cutter
--[] Send 1st Heavy Militia and 1 Militia warhost to disable the systems on the ground
-[][WARRIOR] Deploy a small fleet made up of war ketch to K'Phra. The system is a target for the nearby orks to raid and as such also should make for a good system to test our war ketches.
--[] Send 20 War Ketch
I think the last iteration from my side.
BAP wise 2 EH, + Seer Circle + AP to the engine + grenades.
I am not doing anything that would include the torps, missiles or melta weapons so they don't need to be taken this turn.
Apart from that well go for the perfect hybrid, don't do the haywire fields because frankly we already AOE covered and are good when it comes to defense against all kinds of smart weaponry.
When it comes to sending out our military (which is free).
I added Ectosa to disable the terraforming tech that is causing problems, pretty much because it is free/doesn't cost us anything and I do kind of want to help out in the background, instead of just watching people die in mass/things getting worse.
K'Phra is a bit more dicey, but I want some performance test from our war ketch, their Holo-Fields should allow them to choose their engagements + disengage as wanted. Also might help out the humans there to stand up against the orks for longer which would also be good for us.
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Yeah so? Its tactical role, unless we manage to exceed ourselves in developing new applications, is exotic effect anti-vehicle weapon. We have this niche filled pretty well, with fate weapons being supreme option and a bunch of grav a decent second. To make a difference in our capabilities to win it we better go all in, deep vs wide research.
Anyway, you don't have to convince me, nor I have to convince you. I'm just stating my preference in what I'd vote for.
- Pronouns
- Reader
[ ] Plan Building Up To Aiding Others Long Haul
-[][Steward] Move Existing Councils (5 AP)
-[][Steward] Manage Diplomatic Affairs (2 AP)
-[][Bonesinger] Replacing Primary Power Distribution (2 AP)
-[][Bonesinger] Enhance Industry × 2 (6 AP)
-[][Bonesinger] Seer Circle (4 AP)
-[][Bonesinger] Continue ship repair (1 AP)
-[][Bonesinger] Continue ship refits (1 AP)
-[][Bonesinger] Develop Basic Grenades (1 AP)
-[][Bonesinger] Forge of Vaul: Aid a Construction/Repair project (Enhance Industry)
-[][Bonesinger] Forge of Vaul: Aid a Construction/Repair project (Seer Circle)
-[][Seer] The Eye of Tzeentch (10 AP)
-[][Seeker] Grav-Gun Hybridization
--[][Seeker] Perfect Hybridization (6 AP)
-[][Seeker] Reverse-engineer Haywire Weapons
--[][Seeker] Haywire Bombs (6 AP)
-[][Warrior] The Burden of Command (1 AP)
-[][Warrior] Design a Light Capital (Cruiser or Light Cruiser) × 2 (4 AP)
-[][Warrior] Chassis Militarization (2 AP)
-[][Warrior] Organize Troops (2 AP)
-[][Warrior] Develop Refit Profiles (3 AP)
-[][Warrior] Deploy 2 Scouting Fleets from Zahr-Tann's forces to assist in scouting the regional Webway.
-- [] Prep for deployment to coordinate with Stel'ys-Ran and it's allies in the search for and possibly rescue of the craftworld Nacretinei
--- [] 3rd Heavy Fleet, 4th Line Fleet, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 1st Transport Fleet
--- [] 1st-10th Battle Hosts, 15th-30th Line Host, 1st-4th Armour Assault Hosts, 1st Siegebreaker Host
--- [] Send 1 Combat Brig, 26 War Ketchs, and 5 Nettle Class Destroyers
--- [] Grand Warcasting Circle, 3rd Heavy Militia, 1st, 4th, 5th Militia
Stewardship: Activating tier 1 & contacting Stel-Uit and Lal'c-Tann hopefully.
Bonesinger: A little engine repair, A good start to BAP expansion for more BAP to throw around. next tier of Seer infrastructure, because this is literally our win condition category. continue repairs and refits, and develop grenades. You know, that thing everyone uses, except us currently. I feel like other development can wait.
Seer: All on eye of Tzeench, because Kaeros the fateweaver isn't allowed to have nice things, and none of the other options is particularly critical
Seeker: Ultimately I agree that we aren't short on decent weapons. We have quite the variety of acceptable weapons at this point. Grav Hybrid weapons should therefore be a stretch project to get something truly quality. Something to start balancing out our starblasters with with when things start getting tight in starcrystals for what we equiped our command detachment and elites with. That and perfect hybridization feels like it would give us something fantastic for a mid range Galleon battleship or militarized battleship hull.
Sweeper weapons on the other hand are simpler. We have an option we can, with a bit of focus, have ready for strike craft use by turn 8, so it's definitely worth focusing on them rather than splitting AP between multiple Haywire designs.
Warrior: command is a must, as is develop refit profiles, and I think we are ready to tackle our cruisers. I've switched to the plan most people are using for Kronite salvage even though I'm pretty sure we are hampering progress by not involving civilian experts to handle the actual scavenging bits after the warhosts go over the wreckage.
I've also put two more scout fleets(total four) on webway scouting than most plans. I can understand not wanting to send them all, but having more than half of our scout fleets sit around doing nothing when there are still more than 500 warships defending our craft world without them is just silly.
-[][Steward] Move Existing Councils (5 AP)
-[][Steward] Manage Diplomatic Affairs (2 AP)
-[][Bonesinger] Replacing Primary Power Distribution (2 AP)
-[][Bonesinger] Enhance Industry × 2 (6 AP)
-[][Bonesinger] Seer Circle (4 AP)
-[][Bonesinger] Continue ship repair (1 AP)
-[][Bonesinger] Continue ship refits (1 AP)
-[][Bonesinger] Develop Basic Grenades (1 AP)
-[][Bonesinger] Forge of Vaul: Aid a Construction/Repair project (Enhance Industry)
-[][Bonesinger] Forge of Vaul: Aid a Construction/Repair project (Seer Circle)
-[][Seer] The Eye of Tzeentch (10 AP)
-[][Seeker] Grav-Gun Hybridization
--[][Seeker] Perfect Hybridization (6 AP)
-[][Seeker] Reverse-engineer Haywire Weapons
--[][Seeker] Haywire Bombs (6 AP)
-[][Warrior] The Burden of Command (1 AP)
-[][Warrior] Design a Light Capital (Cruiser or Light Cruiser) × 2 (4 AP)
-[][Warrior] Chassis Militarization (2 AP)
-[][Warrior] Organize Troops (2 AP)
-[][Warrior] Develop Refit Profiles (3 AP)
-[][Warrior] Deploy 2 Scouting Fleets from Zahr-Tann's forces to assist in scouting the regional Webway.
-- [] Prep for deployment to coordinate with Stel'ys-Ran and it's allies in the search for and possibly rescue of the craftworld Nacretinei
--- [] 3rd Heavy Fleet, 4th Line Fleet, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 1st Transport Fleet
--- [] 1st-10th Battle Hosts, 15th-30th Line Host, 1st-4th Armour Assault Hosts, 1st Siegebreaker Host
--- [] Send 1 Combat Brig, 26 War Ketchs, and 5 Nettle Class Destroyers
--- [] Grand Warcasting Circle, 3rd Heavy Militia, 1st, 4th, 5th Militia
Stewardship: Activating tier 1 & contacting Stel-Uit and Lal'c-Tann hopefully.
Bonesinger: A little engine repair, A good start to BAP expansion for more BAP to throw around. next tier of Seer infrastructure, because this is literally our win condition category. continue repairs and refits, and develop grenades. You know, that thing everyone uses, except us currently. I feel like other development can wait.
Seer: All on eye of Tzeench, because Kaeros the fateweaver isn't allowed to have nice things, and none of the other options is particularly critical
Seeker: Ultimately I agree that we aren't short on decent weapons. We have quite the variety of acceptable weapons at this point. Grav Hybrid weapons should therefore be a stretch project to get something truly quality. Something to start balancing out our starblasters with with when things start getting tight in starcrystals for what we equiped our command detachment and elites with. That and perfect hybridization feels like it would give us something fantastic for a mid range Galleon battleship or militarized battleship hull.
Sweeper weapons on the other hand are simpler. We have an option we can, with a bit of focus, have ready for strike craft use by turn 8, so it's definitely worth focusing on them rather than splitting AP between multiple Haywire designs.
Warrior: command is a must, as is develop refit profiles, and I think we are ready to tackle our cruisers. I've switched to the plan most people are using for Kronite salvage even though I'm pretty sure we are hampering progress by not involving civilian experts to handle the actual scavenging bits after the warhosts go over the wreckage.
I've also put two more scout fleets(total four) on webway scouting than most plans. I can understand not wanting to send them all, but having more than half of our scout fleets sit around doing nothing when there are still more than 500 warships defending our craft world without them is just silly.
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Kolar
Is Not A Robot
Question for the people pushing for more EI right now. Are we going to use that new BAP on other things, or are you all going to argue for plowing it back into more EI for maximum growth?
I'm fine with it if this is going to be an initial heavy start up into steady investment. I'm not fine with chasing continuous escalating growth and not doing anything productive with the new capacity for the next century.
I'm fine with it if this is going to be an initial heavy start up into steady investment. I'm not fine with chasing continuous escalating growth and not doing anything productive with the new capacity for the next century.
- Location
- Utrecht
I agree. The only advantage Haywire tech has, is for things we don't want to blow up for later study. Our current enemy is Orks, and while reverse engineering some of their stuff might be useful, it's not remotely a priority. It might come in handy for Kronite and Ectosa in the short run... But it's not hard ing that can't wait a turn or two.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
One observation on this, is that it might soft-lock us out of the Vaul academy. For a short while, at least.
Take Stewardship. There, activating their new building costs a whole 5 AP. The Academy of Vaul is larger, more complex, more expensive. What if it requires more Seeker AP.
In that case, starting a very long project might mean that we can not activate the academy until it completes, which might be a long time indeed.
Kolar
Is Not A Robot
We'd still have half the Seeker AP not locked. If we can't make the academy with that I think it would be mentioned.
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Also, we really shouldn't be investing in the Academy soon.
It costs us BAP to get us stuff that takes BAP to make use of, when we're already desperately short of BAP.
Accidentally locking ourselves out of it for a few turns would be a positive.
- Location
- Germany
I plan to keep at least 6 BAP going for quite some time.
That together with the forge should result in a pretty big (growing) pile of BAP we can use on other stuff.
- Location
- Utrecht
The Seeker projects do not have to be continuous.
That is a restriction specifically for battle psyker training.
In that case, we would just have to put the combi grav research on hold for a turn.
Kolar
Is Not A Robot
I hope you aren't tied to using both forge actions on it full time. Using one of them for establishing equipment production would be a big boost. I definitely want us to use one on a Void Guard foundry next turn to get extra ones running.
Hmm. Thinking about it, this is probably where we'll get the option to develop Bladedancer-OK armor.
And while that's currently not an option, there's an obvious reason for that: we'd need Bladedancers available to work on the research, and at the moment we've only got Battlecasters. Our existing Bladedancers are all currently members of various Warhosts.
So I'm bringing back the Witchblade research in my plan, and the extra 1 Seer AP is going into training up a new Bladedance Troup.
- Pronouns
- Reader
I'm currently in favor of a 3 turns(5 through 7) of investments of 6 AP, preferably with a forge action if not both attached, with the goal of 50% AP increase by turn 10 start. From turn 8 on we can scale things down to a 3 AP for 2 turns while we finish up engines and split the Difference 3 ways between obligations, forge/foundry, and refits. When turn 10 rolls around we can assess where we are and what to prioritize next, as our situation is likely to have changed significantly by that point.
It doesn't. Hall of stewardship bonesinger action didn't list the AP we would gain under it. Grand Academy does, like shrine of Khane did. Like shrine of Khane, the AP gain is immediate upon the building finishing construction, no activation needed.
As we can see here.
G
I think it's okay to invest in it turn 7. We'll have a decent amount of increased BAP by then. Enough to take it, 6 AP on EI, and continue refits and repairs, and still have 4 AP for other things.
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I want a short burst of EI right now, when things are calm. I'd drop back investment from EI either slowly or quickly based on how fleeting the calm seems to be, but EI isn't the only thing we need done with a slow payoff time, just the one that has the fastest returns; we'll also need various forges and foundries for producing our gear, because I don't expect the calm to last long and even as fast as our production lines have turned out to be, they still take time to set up.
Especially since people are very attached to researching new gear instead of building what we've already got, though, we should be investing in Enhancing Industry. We can't invest in production lines of gear we haven't designed yet, after all, and if we do neither we're going to end up with very shiny blueprints and neither gear nor the industry to build it when the next round of fighting starts.
- Location
- Germany
Permanently no, it loses a lot of effectiveness after around 5-10 turns.
But the jump it gives these is pretty high.
That said I do plan on keeping the BAP investment at ~50%* as long as the build times are still as short as they are now (2-3 turns, the moment it turns into 4 turns I plan to dial it back to 25-30% and at 5 turns even more).
*some exceptions when we need BAP for some pressing project or need to crash build/repair our fleet.
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SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
I feel like you can tell the people that have played hearts of Iron vs those that have not, we're a production faction if we're not building tool factories what are we even doing.