A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

[Copperscale]

And so you're putting off gaining more BAP as long as possible.

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Taking one enhance industry and putting the forge is enough for this turn. We have lots of other stuff that needs building and lots of ships that need repairing. It's excessive to put more than 6/15 of our actions on the 'numbers go up' option when there is so much else that needs to be done,

 

[Alratan]

Ideally, we should chip away at it a little, at least.

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The thing is, we get no benefits from partially fixed engines.

If, before we complete the engines, we're likely to take any more enhance industry actions we should switch the order to do all the Enhamce Industry actions at the beginning and all the engine repair actions towards the end.

Say we plan to take six turns to fix the engines

We're a lot better off if we Enhance Indistey three times this turn and three turns next and then switch to fixing the engines in the last two turns, rather than doing one Enhance Industry a turn in parallel with chipping away at the Engines.

This generally applies to everything. If the product of a Bonesinger AP won't be immediately used, then it makes sense to delay doing that and do Enhance Industry instead, rather than doing the Enhance Industry later.

Spending the same proportion of AP on Industry but building it later so not getting the benefits of compound growth is just leaving AP on the table for nothing.

The only things that we should do instead on Enhance Industry are things that are genuinely urgent that we can justify why they're needed right now rather than in a couple of turns when they'd be cheaper in terms of proportion of BAP after we do Enhance Industry first.

Taking one enhance industry and putting the forge is enough for this turn. We have lots of other stuff that needs building and lots of ships that need repairing. It's excessive to put more than 6/15 of our actions on the 'numbers go up' option when there is so much else that needs to be done,

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It's because there's so much to be done that we should do Enhance Industry first.

The more we front load Enhance Industry, the more we can do in total.

Extra BAP pays for itself and starts returning a profit relatively quickly, particularly when you use Forge actions.

 

[Skjadir]

It's a prediction, I didn't think a Warcasting Circle would unlock Artifact equipment for instance, but now that we have a free one, we got new Seer Options to make use of them. I can absolutely see being able to convert a free Seeing Circle into a Seer AP

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So you base the seer circles giving us AP on the fact that we got the options to research wargear(and that also means paying seer AP for that) when the only thing so far that has given us AP is infrastructure ?

Taking one enhance industry and putting the forge is enough for this turn. We have lots of other stuff that needs building and lots of ships that need repairing. It's excessive to put more than 6/15 of our actions on the 'numbers go up' option when there is so much else that needs to be done,

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... you might want to look in the impact that going for EH build up for a while has because that is a massive impact.

Double EH is very much the right call here.

 

[Alectai]

So you base the seer circles giving us AP on the fact that we got the options to research wargear(and that also means paying seer AP for that) when the only thing so far that has given us AP is infrastructure ?




... you might want to look in the impact that going for EH for a while has because that is a massive impact.

Double EH is very much the right call here.

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You're using an Extremely hostile reading of what I said to justify taking it down, and that's not even where the main focus is and debate is here. Nailing down that "Because Battlecasters--Psykers who specialize in using offensive magic, can be used to research Wargear, this clearly means that all Psykers we can train can only contribute to combat research and there is no way to acquire new Seer AP that is within our power"

This game is all about Fucking Around and Finding Out. We saw what the benefits are of having free Psykers who aren't committed to the armed forces. I want to see what having a dedicated Seeing Circle unlock, and it's 2 AP for 2 turns, that's something I'm willing to risk for the sake of learning more.

 

[Candesce]

We have lots of other stuff that needs building and lots of ships that need repairing

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Which costs BAP to do, and since it isn't urgent, spending BAP to get more BAP means that immense backlog of repairs and construction gets done faster.

Anyway. Returning to my 3x Enhance plan, I've pulled the Seer Circle which wasn't going to be completed any time soon anyway in order to fit in an Armor Foundry and a Missile Launcher development that I'll use immediately with a Commission Strikecraft. Long-term plan would be to set up production lines for the strikecraft while the hull militarization designs the carrier to carry them, so when we finally reach the point where we'd be building the carriers we'll have craft to arm them with.

Still needs finalized deployment orders, because I would like to get salvaging Kronite this turn.

[] Plan: Power of Industry
-[ ][STEWARD] Move Existing Councils (5 AP)
-[ ][STEWARD} Manage Diplomatic Affairs (2 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Enhance Industry (1st)(3 points initial, 1 point continuous | 2-3 turns, each)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Enhance Industry (2nd)(3 points initial, 1 point continuous | 2-3 turns, each)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Enhance Industry (3rd)(3 points initial, 1 point continuous | 2-3 turns, each)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Develop Basic Missile Launchers (2 points)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Armor Foundry (Void Guard Warsuit) (2 points)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Continue ship repair (1 point) [Strongly recommended]
-[ ][BONESINGER] Continue ship refits (1 point)
-[ ][FORGE] Aid Enhance Industry (Twice)
-[ ][SEER] The Eye of Tzeentch x5 (2 AP each, 10 total)
-[ ][SEEKER] Simple Hybridization (3 AP, 5-12 turns)
-[ ][SEEKER] Haywire Guns (2 AP/turn, ?? turns)
-[ ][SEEKER] Haywire Bombs (5 AP/turn, 3-5 turns)
-[ ][SEEKER] Scrambler Fields (2 AP/turn, ?? turns)
-[ ][WARRIOR] The Burden of Command (1 AP initial, Variable AP/Time thereafter)
-[ ][WARRIOR] Develop Refit Profiles x3 (1 AP each, 2 total)
-[ ][WARRIOR] Commission Strike Craft (1 AP)
-[ ][WARRIOR] Chassis Militization (2 AP per turn, 1-12 turns)
-[ ][WARRIOR] Hull Militization (5 AP per turn; 4-8 turns for Escorts, 6-20 turns for Capitals)

 

[Alectai]

I can be convinced if I get enough pushback to move from Seer Circle to a second Enhance Industry one turn, but I think three is excessive.

 

[Candesce]

I can be convinced if I get enough pushback to move from Seer Circle to a second Enhance Industry one turn, but I think three is excessive.

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Then don't vote for my plan?

I don't think three is excessive.

 

[Copperscale]

I still want the Seer Circle asap.

I think the tools it unlocks will be useful for Tzeentch's curse.

 

[Alectai]

Then don't vote for my plan?

I don't think three is excessive.

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And I'm not willing to assume we've Solved The Game at this juncture. We already learned that people were massively lowballing the value of Foundries/Forges, and pushing the Shrine of Khaine has done so much to unfuck our military procurement despite the fact a lot of people were convinced it only gave a "Mere" 5 WAP until Mechanis explicitly dropped in and explained that our problems were because we didn't have a military bureaucracy yet.

Enhance Industry is good! I agree that we should be expanding it regularly!

I just don't think it's the god stat that takes priority over everything else on our plate. And 3 Enhance Industry projects goes way beyond that point, using up 9 out of our 13 free BAP. I can justify two at most if we're willing to drop the Seer Circle (Which, as I have said, I got a lot of pushback about not having it in the First Draft), but three is Right Out

 

[Alratan]

I can be convinced if I get enough pushback to move from Seer Circle to a second Enhance Industry one turn, but I think three is excessive.

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I'd back that, although I'd prefer three, simply because we've been told things are quiet so it's the best opportunity to work on our basics as we know that there aren't t any fires we need to fight.

I do, however, say that while also thinking that we should be going all in on the Curse or Tzeentch, not doing any scrying until we've made more progress on beating that save in emergency. Given Chaos is probably after us I think that scrying on our local enemies is something to particularly avoid.

On War Seers, I think the training might be about training some of existing Seers in how to use their powers on the battlefield so they can serve as War Seers, rather than training up brand new seers from scratch. Hard to say though.

 

[Skjadir]

The thing with BAP is that it's the place where we need the most AP by far and is pretty much used as the foundation of everything else we do.

We also know that EH gives us more BAP and that the active BAP scales stupidly high.

Point is we are currently in a phase where we don't expect to be attacked for several turns and can use that.
And with us not having pressing matters that need BAP right now!, investing BAP into getting a lot more BAP later is a very valid choice with a lot of benefits down the line.

 

[Candesce]

Given Chaos is probably after us I think that scrying on our local enemies is something to particularly avoid.

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Fair point.

Long-term, I do think the optional refinement of psychic disciplines that Witchblades promises could be a way to make Pyromancy available to a much larger number of Special Units, and since that's our only currently available source of true-killing demons, I'd like to do it at some point - but it's not urgent.

 

[Copperscale]

Eh, you know what , i'm not going to argue about BAP anymore.

I'm going to make Combi gravs my deciding issue.

Vote perfect integration!

 

[Alratan]

The way I look at Enhance Industry is that it's a
scheduling question. It's not about whether it's more important to be done at all than the competing options, which are also likely to be valuable.

It's about which order we should do things in.

The easiest comparison is engine repair versus Enhance Industry.

As far as I can tell, although this isn't absolutely certain, we get no immediate benefit from a part fixed engine. It's either working or it's not.

Thus, rather than fixing the engines and enhancing industry in parallel, it makes sense to do it in series, to do all the enhancing of industry we plan to do in the medium term first and then fix all the engines at once. The caveat is that this is true if and only if we don't think we need to actually use the engines in the medium term.

The same may be true for other options. If we don't think we'll actually be doing anything with Melta Guns in the next few turns, the cost of delaying them is low or nothing, but the cost of delaying the Enhance Industry we could do in their place is that we'll have less BAP to do other things with.

Basically, the opportunity cost of all the non-Enhance Industry options is that they probably reduce the total amount of things that we'll ever do over the medium and longer run. The benefits of whichever options we take in their place needs to be sufficient to overcome those costs.

Now, there are undocumented benefits. The Seer Circle and Grand Academy, as infrastructure projects, seem particularly likely to have them.

I think basic tech research is less likely to.

 

[Star]

I'll go with Seer Circle as I'm also interested in seeing what it can unlock

 

[Copperscale]

If we don't think we'll actually be doing anything with Melta Guns in the next few turns, the cost of delaying them is low or nothing, but the cost of delaying the Enhance Industry we could do in their place is that we'll have less BAP to do other things with

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Melta tech also unlocks melta bombs, missiles and torpedoes. It's a very low hanging fruit that makes acquiring the other related techs even more useful.
Our most destructive weapons are direct fire or short ranged or both. Missiles are neither.
And melta torpedoes will let our currently escort heavy fleet punch up even harder.

 

[Candesce]

Melta tech also unlocks melta bombs, missiles and torpedoes.

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Only once we unlock missiles and torpedoes. Meltas currently gets us melta bombs and guns and nothing else.

I'm sure it'll get picked eventually; it's cheap and useful. But researching missiles, torpedoes, or grenades all make that more likely - and unlike meltas, are more likely to be used in designs immediately.

 

[Skjadir]

[ ] Draft: Eldary Industries v3
-[ ][STEWARD] Move Existing Councils (5 AP)
-[ ][STEWARD] Manage Diplomatic Affairs (2 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Enhance Industry (3 AP) x3
--[ ][FORGE] Use the Forge (-1d3 Turns to Completion) x2
-[ ][BONESINGER] Seeing Circle (4 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Continue ship repair (1 AP) [Strongly recommended]
-[ ][BONESINGER] Continue ship refits (1 AP)
-[ ][SEER] Seeing Circle (2 AP)
-[ ][SEER] The Eye of Tzeentch (8 AP)
-[ ][SEEKER] Grav-Gun Hybridization
-- [ ] Perfect Hybridization (6 AP, ?? turns)
-[ ][SEEKER] Reverse-engineer Haywire Weapons
--[ ] Haywire Guns (2 AP)
--[ ] Haywire Bombs (4 AP)
-[ ][WARRIOR] The Burden of Command (1 AP)
-[ ][WARRIOR] Design a Light Capital (Cruiser or Light Cruiser) (2 AP)x2
-[ ][WARRIOR] Chassis Militarization (2 AP)x2
-[ ][WARRIOR] Develop Refit Profiles (1 AP)x3
-[ ][WARRIOR] Deploy forces to conduct an exploration and salvage mission in the Kronite System
-[ ][WARRIOR] Deploy 2 Scouting Fleets from Zahr-Tann's forces to assist in scouting the regional Webway.
-[][WARRIOR] Send small force to Ectosa to disable the terraforming tech
-[][WARRIOR] Deploy a small fleet made up of war ketch to K'Phra

Industry is pretty much 2 things, 3x EH and 1 Seer circle.
Plan is to throw 2 forge actions next turn at the circle to finish that, build 2 more EHs then that should still leave 6 BAP for other stuff.

No spending BAP on tech here because its not going to be needed this turn and can be picked up next turn.

Spending the 2 AP on the Seeing Circle as a bone for the people that want to test stuff there.

Most of the warrior ap flow into getting militarized chassis + simple retrofits using the needlers + brigantine.

The force send to Ectosa is pretty much a why not costs us no AP + we have some forces around for the deployment that would otherwise just sit around and do nothing.
The one to K'Phra is pretty much a have the human fight the main army/navy while we are in the background to get some more test data on our retrofit ships (war ketch as an example doesn't have performance data so far).

Question is what forces to send to which places and how many.

 

[Copperscale]

snip.

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Could you be persuaded into looking at Meson blaster instead of haywire weapons? It's a non-canon weapon which we have no context for otherwise.

 

[10ebbor10]

The thing is, we get no benefits from partially fixed engines.

If, before we complete the engines, we're likely to take any more enhance industry actions we should switch the order to do all the Enhamce Industry actions at the beginning and all the engine repair actions towards the end.

Say we plan to take six turns to fix the engines

We're a lot better off if we Enhance Indistey three times this turn and three turns next and then switch to fixing the engines in the last two turns, rather than doing one Enhance Industry a turn in parallel with chipping away at the Engines.

This generally applies to everything. If the product of a Bonesinger AP won't be immediately used, then it makes sense to delay doing that and do Enhance Industry instead, rather than doing the Enhance Industry later.

Spending the same proportion of AP on Industry but building it later so not getting the benefits of compound growth is just leaving AP on the table for nothing.

The only things that we should do instead on Enhance Industry are things that are genuinely urgent that we can justify why they're needed right now rather than in a couple of turns when they'd be cheaper in terms of proportion of BAP after we do Enhance Industry first.

Click to shrink...

The problem here is that you're ignoring the critical path, and certain unknowns.

Specifically, after we have done the repairs on the control center, we need to train people to operate the engines. We have no idea how long that'll take.
Imagine your plan gets followed, and then "teach people to operate the engines" is 6 turn action of 2AP/turn.

That could have, very easily, been done at the same time as the rest of the construction, but because you loaded all engine repair to the very end, now it's in the critical path, and causes a multi turn delay.

 

[Candesce]

-[ ][WARRIOR] Design a Light Capital (Cruiser or Light Cruiser) (4 AP)

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I think this should have a 2x on it? Otherwise you've got 2 more AP to spend.

I'm concerned about sending forces to K'Phra before we've put together a diplomatic council; they're voidship-capable, so unlike Kronite and possibly Ectosa, showing up in their system means making contact.

Imagine your plan gets followed, and then "teach people to operate the engines" is 6 turn action of 2AP/turn.

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If you think this is a serious worry, you should make a plan that puts in all 8 BAP required to finish the control center.

 

[Alratan]

Melta tech also unlocks melta bombs, missiles and torpedoes. It's a very low hanging fruit that makes acquiring the other related techs even more useful.
Our most destructive weapons are direct fire or short ranged or both. Missiles are neither.
And melta torpedoes will let our currently escort heavy fleet punch up even harder.

Click to shrink...

Alongside additional research for missiles, torpedoes, and grenades.

Getting those benefits has to wait for thsie projects, we don't get them for free.

And even if we do get them, it comes back to my question, are we actually going to deploy those weapons in a fight where they make a difference soon enough that whether we do the research this turn, next turn, or the turn after next matters?

As I say, this is a sequencing question. It's not about saying that Melta weapons are a bad idea, as you say, they could have some valuable uses.

It's whether we should research Melta weapons now and delay doing more enhance industries by a turn or two, or the other way around.

Given what Mechanis has told us about being in a quiet period, I think we don't need to do the basic weapons research before we build the basic industry.

Expanding our basic industry first then makes us more capable of doing basic research and building the foundries to build the results.

 

[Skjadir]

I'm concerned about sending forces to K'Phra before we've put together a diplomatic council; they're voidship-capable, so unlike Kronite and possibly Ectosa, showing up in their system means making contact.

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It's pretty much just to use any fighting against orks to test the effectiveness of our war ketches in the background.
And with the war ketch's having holo fields, they are going to be stealthed until they attack and should be able to just silently disengage when finished.

So i am pretty confident we can avoid making contact while still helping out a bit so to speak in the background.

 

[Alectai]

The problem here is that you're ignoring the critical path, and certain unknowns.

Specifically, after we have done the repairs on the control center, we need to train people to operate the engines. We have no idea how long that'll take.
Imagine your plan gets followed, and then "teach people to operate the engines" is 6 turn action of 2AP/turn.

That could have, very easily, been done at the same time as the rest of the construction, but because you loaded all engine repair to the very end, now it's in the critical path, and causes a multi turn delay.

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That's actually why I've got the engine repairs to get the one that'll need a Steward AP started first.

 

[IronBig21]

Is Anathema a new concept and why it's power do hostile against chaos?

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Because Big E was brown from the mass suicide ritual conducted by all the psykers (shamans) of 8,000 BC (give or take some millennia) with the purpose of being strong enough to protect humanity from Chaos.

The in quest reasoning for Big E's anathema trait being so damn strong is that he's actually a very strong Pariah. Only that he's so strong of a Pariah that it glitched the warp into making him the strongest human psyker as well.

So his anathema trait is part of his Pariah BS that screws over any Chaos warp fuckery.