A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

[Alratan]

Question for the people pushing for more EI right now. Are we going to use that new BAP on other things, or are you all going to argue for plowing it back into more EI for maximum growth?

I'm fine with it if this is going to be an initial heavy start up into steady investment. I'm not fine with chasing continuous escalating growth and not doing anything productive with the new capacity for the next century.

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If we went for, say, two AlEI's with Forge of Vaul discounts this turn and two the next couple of turns afterwards, or I'd be content scaling back to one EI for the turns after that.

Basically, front load our EI now and then reduce it afterwards, but then start a background investment in it.

Just as I think that we should be building a Forge or Foundry every turn, I think we should probably be continually building EI.

 

[TheParadigm]

Especially since people are very attached to researching new gear instead of building what we've already got, though, we should be investing in Enhancing Industry. We can't invest in production lines of gear we haven't designed yet, after all, and if we do neither we're going to end up with very shiny blueprints and neither gear nor the industry to build it when the next round of fighting starts.

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So, I totally missed that a bunch of our tech options are under bonesinger instead of seeker. So yeah, thats on me. Now, i'm fully on board with expanding industries, and to be honest, i think its an action we should have been taking in prior turns. Since we aren't, now, we're feeling the crunch and its catch up time.

There's a comedy option where we take it -five- times, forge rush two, and see our ap explode over the next few turns. (net -1, unless one finishes early by itself?)

I think advanced missile options are likely to fall under the seeker, tho

 

[Alratan]

Note that if we keep absolute BAP investment in EI constant that actually represents a declining investment over time as our total BAP increases, so our growth rate will slow. And that's before the diminishing returns to the EI action we've been warned about.

If we really want to ride the compound growth train we'll probably need to gradually increase the investment in BAP growth

One thing I think we should note is that the canon Major Craftworlds seem to have increased their economies to the scale of thousands of BAP, and they don't have a Forge of Vaul to make knock-offs of. So we know that such production levels are possible purely by spamming EI actions.

One other thing. I think we should see if we can offer to teach Ulthwe to make Needler factories in return for 2 BAP worth of their Bonesingers. Their shuriken catapults are just sad; and the fact that in canon they spent so much on making them by hand just makes it worse

I think advanced missile options are likely to fall under the seeker, tho

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As melta is a basic tech and missiles are a basic tech melts missiles might also be a basic tech, but for plasma, as that was seeker, possibly.

 

[F0lkL0re]

Revised plan

[] Plan Room to Breathe
-[] [Steward] Move Existing Councils (5 AP)
-[] [Steward] Manage Diplomatic Affairs (2 AP)
-[] [Bonesinger] Armor Foundry (Energy-Dispersion Barrier Generator) (2 AP)
-[] [Bonesinger] Enhance Industry (3 AP)
-[] [Bonesinger] Seer Circle (4 AP)
-[] [Bonesinger] Continue ship repair (1 AP)
-[] [Bonesinger] Continue ship refits (1 AP)
-[] [Bonesinger] Develop Basic Voidship Torpedos (2 AP)
-[] [Bonesinger] Develop Basic Missile Launchers (2 AP)
-[] Forge of Vaul: Aid a Construction/Repair project (Enhance Industry)
-[] Forge of Vaul: Aid a Construction/Repair project (Seer Circle)
-[] [Seer] Scry the Past (1 AP)
--[] "What happened that prevented Nacretinei from attending the moot?"
-[] [Seer] Raise a Seeing Circle (2 AP)
-[] [Seer] Raise a Bladedance Troupe (1 AP)
-[] [Seer] The Eye of Tzeentch (6 AP)
-[] [Seeker] Grav-Gun Hybridization
--[] Crude Hybridization (1 AP)
--[] Simple Hybridization (3 AP)
--[] Perfect Hybridization (6 AP)
-[] [Seeker] Reverse-engineer Haywire Weapons
--[] Haywire Guns (2 AP)
-[] [Warrior] Commission Strike Craft (1 AP)
-[] [Warrior] The Burden of Command (1 AP)
-[] [Warrior] Design Escorts (1 AP)
-[] [Warrior] Chassis Militization (6 AP)
-[] [Warrior] Develop Refit Profiles (2 AP)
-[] [Warrior] Dispatch an Allied Force
--[] Assign Zahr-Tann 4th Line Fleet, 5th​ Scout Fleet and Zahr-Tann 2nd & 3rd Line Warhosts to escort civilian convoys to scavenge high man wreckage above Kronite for examples of tech, rare materials, and relatively intact or restorable archive data, as well as patrolling the system with remaining Warships
--[] Assign Zahr-Tann 3rd Scout fleet to escort civilian convoys to deactivate and retrieve malfunctioning terraforming equipment from Ectosa, as well as retrieve any noteworthy tech, rare materials, or relatively intact data archives
--[] Assign 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th Zahr-Tann Scout Fleets to scout the webway.

In Bonesinger I decided to grab both missiles and torpedoes so that next turn we will spend less BAP next turn to unlock the melta variants of those weapons and thus will have more to spend on other projects and so that we can put them to use this turn in designing a new strike craft and sloop.

I know it's not the most optimal thing to do and may be unpopular but I'm going to put Seer AP towards training a Seeing Circle and Bladedance Troupe because as stated in the Technology of Magic section of the Seer tab:

Advanced Psy-tech is developed under the Sign of the Seer, and often requires the participation of various types of psyker to complete—or become available at all.

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and training a Warcasting Circle unlocked research into better psy foci so it stands to reason that having other types of psyker free may unlock other avenues of research, for instance maybe the wardancers may unlock psyker armour.

 

[Copperscale]

-[] [Seeker] Grav-Gun Hybridization
--[] Crude Hybridization (1 AP)
--[] Simple Hybridization (3 AP)
--[] Perfect Hybridization (6 AP)

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The hybridizations are mutually exclusive. You can't choose them all.

 

[F0lkL0re]

The hybridizations are mutually exclusive. You can't choose them all.

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And where exactly does it say that? Because if they are I'll do more of the haywire stuff.

 

[Kolar]

And where exactly does it say that? Because if they are I'll do more of the haywire stuff.

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It doesn't. The thing is though what is the point in doing all of them? Crude and one of the others, I can see the arguments for. Something immediate and something long term is an acceptable compromise. Doing Simple and Perfect together is just wasteful.

 

[Alratan]

and training a Warcasting Circle unlocked research into better psy foci so it stands to reason that having other types of psyker free may unlock other avenues of research, for instance maybe the wardancers may unlock psyker armour.

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The issue I have this with is that it's spending scarce SeAP to unlock projects that then cost scarce SeAP to research, which will cost more scarce SAp to make, which will equip units that cost even more scarce SeAP to train, when the Curses mean that we have projects that are both urgent and important to spend that SeAP on.

It just seems more important to keep hammering away at Tzeentch's Curse, with the maximum AP so we can try to do the best and safest job we can.

It doesn't. The thing is though what is the point in doing all of them? Crude and one of the others, I can see the arguments for. Something immediate and something long term is an acceptable compromise. Doing Simple and Perfect together is just wasteful.

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One may end up being a weapon for high end troops and another for high end elites, for example. As they're not mutually exclusive as they produce different results they could fit in different niches. It's not just about the time frame, but I think they're also aiming for something different.

I mean, I'm not completely sold on the idea, but I can see the theoretical point.

They may, emphasis on may, also synergise, in some way. I wouldn't be surprised if doing all three together made the longer projects go faster.

 

[Kolar]

One may end up being a weapon for high end troops and another for high end elites, for example. As they're not mutually ecxlusive as they produce different results they could fit in different niches.

I mean, I'm not completely sold on the idea, but I can see the theoretical point.

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Theoretically, sure. That possibility is not worth the breath used to speak it if it locks in 9 of our 12 Seeker AP for decades.

 

[Alratan]

Theoretically, sure. That possibility is not worth the breath used to speak it if it locks in 9 of our 12 Seeker AP for decades.

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It doesn't lock the AP though. It doesn't have the qualification that training Battle Psykers does that once you start you can't stop.

If we decide to pause them and work on something else, that seems like it'd be fine.

 

[See Go Reach]

I know it's not the most optimal thing to do and may be unpopular but I'm going to put Seer AP towards training a Seeing Circle and Bladedance Troupe because as stated in the Technology of Magic section of the Seer tab:

and training a Warcasting Circle unlocked research into better psy foci so it stands to reason that having other types of psyker free may unlock other avenues of research, for instance maybe the wardancers may unlock psyker armour.

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Seems like it would be faster and cheaper to pull existing Battle Psykers out of our forces. Especially for Bladedancers, given how fragile they currently are and how much they cost to replace.

 

[Alratan]

Seems like it would be faster and cheaper to pull existing Battle Psykers out of our forces. Especially for Bladedancers, given how fragile they currently are and how much they cost to replace.

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I can't quite work out how we'd do that efficiently.

Would 'Organize Troops' be enough? Or do we need to Disband and then Raise new Detachments.

 

[F0lkL0re]

Seems like it would be faster and cheaper to pull existing Battle Psykers out of our forces. Especially for Bladedancers, given how fragile they currently are and how much they cost to replace.

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I have two counter arguments to this first having some spare psykers would allow us to replace any casualties that we have amongst our currently existing psyker units and second we currently have no seer detachments at the moment.

 

[Kolar]

It doesn't lock the AP though. It doesn't have the qualification that training Battle Psykers does that once you start you can't stop.

If we decide to pause them and work on something else, that seems like it'd be fine.

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A fair counter argument. However, I'll believe such ability will ever be agreed to utilized once it first is. Until then I view it as a false capability. I don't see people agreeing to pull funding for one of them after we invest into it for however long. We all know that when it comes time to restart the project voices will raise that we already have a hybridization project running, we should just let that finish and use the AP for something else. And it is going to be the Perfect one that was canceled, because its time frame is so uncertain.

 

[Randino Treviani]

I for one am in favor of perfect Grav hybrid weaponry. we have plenty of cheap weapon options. we have a variety of effective and powerful AOE weaponry, and good melee options. what we don't have are none exotic elite weapons. perfect grav hybrid can be the first of these that we turn to some day when we are building none brig battleships or a grand cruiser model, or want to give our rare squad leader units the QM has eluded to in ithilmar a second weapon.

If we want the effect of a crude grav hybrid we can make armor with an grav amplifier included and arm warriors using it with imploder or other grav weapons.

simple grav hybrid is just another inexpensive weapon model that sacrifices something to be moderately priced, and we have fairly good cheap and moderately priced weapons already.

perfect grav hybrid is the way to go. it won't be a weapon we field soon but it will be a weapon that serves us well, and be fairly impressive at the naval and upward level.

 

[Alratan]

A fair counter argument. However, I'll believe such ability will ever be agreed to utilized once it first is. Until then I view it as a false capability. I don't see people agreeing to pull funding for one of them after we invest into it for however long. We all know that when it comes time to restart the project voices will raise that we already have a hybridization project running, we should just let that finish and use the AP for something else. And it is going to be the Perfect one that was canceled, because its time frame is so uncertain.

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That's possible, depending on what other Seeker options there are in future and how much Seeker AP we have. However, if that's the case, that's not a problem. We just make the decision when the time comes. Any long project is subject to potentially being abandomed if something more valuable than completing it comes up. And that's a good thing.

In terms of uncertainty, I think we're likely to learn more as we do some research on the project, so if we did get to decision points on whether to stop or restart, we're likely to know more then.

I have two counter arguments to this first having some spare psykers would allow us to replace any casualties that we have amongst our currently existing psyker units and second we currently have no seer detachments at the moment.

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I think we're probably better off pulling our incredibly hard to replace psykers off the battlefield until they're equipped better, rather than risking casualties, tbh.

 

[Alectai]

So, all of my compromising and discussion was pointless because the people who were telling me to change my plan would just submit another plan entirely anyway? That bending as far as I did from what I thought was the right play was completely pointless?

Right, if that's the case, I'm just going to vote with my heart instead of trying to appeal to people who refuse to compromise at all. Final draft coming.

 

[Alratan]

I think we're still at the point where there are multiple points of the plan that haven't been discussed in detail

I think we were working our way towards some form of consensus on the Bonesinger and Steward sections. Two EI with Forge applications seems like a fair compromise position.

However, there's not been a huge amount of examination of the Seeker and Seer sections yet, I think.

There are just so many moving parts in each plan. In some ways it would be easier to take the vote section by section so they can each get the attention they deserve, although that may drag the vote out too much.

At the moment, it's easy for lots of things to get bundled into a package deal because there's so much compelxity to a plan.

 

[Alectai]

[ ] Final Draft: The Dawn of a New Day
-[ ][STEWARD] Move Existing Councils (5 AP)
-[ ][STEWARD} Manage Diplomatic Affairs (2 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Replace Primary Power Distribution Control (2 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Enhance Industry (3 AP)
--[ ][FORGE] Use the Forge (One Turn Completion)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Seer Circle (4 AP)
--[ ][FORGE] Use the Forge (-1d3 Turns)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Continue ship repair (1 AP) [Strongly recommended]
-[ ][BONESINGER] Continue ship refits (1 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Develop Basic Grenades (1 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Develop Basic Voidship Torpedos (2 AP)
-[ ][BONESINGER] Develop Melta Weapons (1 AP)
-[ ][SEER] Develop Warstaff (2 AP/3 Battlecasters)
-[ ][SEER] Raise a Seeing Circle (2 AP)
-[ ][SEER] The Eye of Tzeentch (6 AP)
-[ ][SEEKER] Grav-Gun Hybridization
--[ ] Simple Hybridization (3 AP)
-[ ][SEEKER] Reverse-engineer Haywire Weapons
--[ ] Haywire Guns (2 AP)
--[ ] Haywire Bombs (3 AP)
--[ ] Scrambler Field (4 AP)
-[ ][WARRIOR] Organize Troops (2 AP)
-[ ][WARRIOR] The Burden of Command (1 AP)
-[ ][WARRIOR] Design a Light Capital (Cruiser or Light Cruiser) (4 AP)
-[ ][WARRIOR] Chassis Militarization (2 AP)
-[ ][WARRIOR] Develop Refit Profiles (3 AP)
--[ ] Wraithbone Trauma Plates and Wraithweave Void Suits to be replaced with Wraithweave Brigantine. Infantry Lasweapons replaced with Infantry Needle Weapons
-[ ][WARRIOR] Deploy forces to conduct an exploration and salvage mission in the Kronite System
--[ ] Send 1 Combat Brig, 4 Battle Carracks, 10 Assault Ketches, and 20 Lance Sloops, Zahr-Tann's 15th Scout Fleet is to assist as they are able and provide early warning in case any local Problems decide to start coming our way.
--[ ] Blades of Isha are to be deployed as a precautionary measure and to ensure the security of our investigators in case anything nasty is still living in those wrecks, their skills in close quarters combat will be valuable then.
---[ ] This is not to be a combat operation despite the forces being deployed, our objective is to salvage any artifacts from the human wreckage that may provide useful insights for our own Seekers, sure, it's crude and poorly developed--but the core principles are still useful, and we're hardly in a position to be picky for sources of how to rebuild our forge-craft without the blessings of the Phoenix Court. Withdraw if there is any significant risk of sustaining damage.
-[ ][WARRIOR] Deploy 2 Scouting Fleets from Zahr-Tann's forces to assist in scouting the regional Webway.

MAJOR REVISION LOG

Grav-Gun Hybridization has been moved up to Basic Hybridization due to significant outcry. This took 2 points from the Scrambler Field project, but it'll get us a superior weapon when it's ready.

Refit Profiles were adjusted to replace our shitty Trauma Plates and Void Suits with Brigantine, and Infantry Lasweapons with Needle Weapons.

Due to absolutely relentless bullying by everyone, removed the Forge and Foundry construction options to start on the Seer Circle and moved the Forge Action to that to speed it up a bit.

Added a deployment to the Kronite System to see if we can sneak a quick salvage op in while nobody's looking that way. Mostly in-house forces using pre-Fall upgunned merchantmen that haven't been refit yet, with orders that this is a salvage and investigation mission, and not a combat one. They are to withdraw if they run into anything greater than token resistance.

On reasonable suggestions and a lack of any real better idea, converted the two Scrying actions into starting the Warstaff project

With some good points brought up, moved the Escort and Strike Craft commissions out so we can do a pass on both of our current Cruiserweight designs at once, so we can build them with complimentary roles in mind.

Fifth Draft's major revision--on even further pushback--was to do a second Enhance Industry boosted by the Forge, trading off the Seer Circle to get it, this gives us 2 more BAP next turn without discarding everything else we need to work on still, as going with 3x Enhance Industry will cost us another 1-2 BAP beyond what we need and only leave us with 4 BAP that we can spend between every other project on our docket, including a lot of basic-of-the-basics level stuff. The remaining AP was put getting some damaged Assault Ketches refit to the War Ketch standard because I couldn't find any good things that only took 1 AP beyond that that wouldn't start another riot.

Final Draft was mostly rolling back the Fifth Draft's changes, because it became fairly clear that the people telling me to make those changes wouldn't be satisfied with anything but complete capitulation on every point instead of genuinely trying to compromise and so rather than chasing those who cannot be pleased, I'd prefer to vote with my heart instead. Removed the second Enhance Industry--which, while excellent, is still pure boring "Make Numbers Go Up" while Seer Circle will at least reduce the difficulty of future scrying attempts, made especially useful with the timing now where we understand precisely the source and some of the fracture points of the working on us. I still believe that it's far too premature to assume we've 'Solved' the mechanics, and that while Industrial boosting is great and all, it's not something we need to max out Yesterday, when we still have so many other things on our plate.

 

[Profilozof]

I think we're still at the point where there are multiple points of the plan that haven't been discussed in detail

I think we were working our way towards some form of consensus on the Bonesinger and Steward sections. Two EI with Forge applications seems like a fair compromise position.

However, there's not been a huge amount of examination of the Seeker and Seer sections yet, I think.

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While true, seeker and Seer actions are less controversial. We all agree that we should put most on the pigeon's curse and rest is less important. Seeker is just preference of people

 

[Alratan]

Well, the rolled back plan is significantly less attractive, and the pejorative rhetoric makes it even less so.

We don't know, for example, that Enhance Industry is just 'numbers go up', and even if it does only increase BAP, it represents buying more options on future turns, so it does do something, unlike say partially completing an engine project, which probably literally is just numbers go up, as it probably does literally nothing beyond incrementing a progress bar and doesn't actually let us do anything else next turn.

While true, seeker and Seer actions are less controversial. We all agree that we should put most on the pigeon's curse and rest is less important. Seeker is just preference of people

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There's a big difference, I think, between 10 AP on the Curse and 6 AP on the Curse, and I think the Grav Gun decision is also potentially quite impactful because of the potential for spin off technologies.

 

[Profilozof]

Final Draft was mostly rolling back the Fifth Draft's changes, because it became fairly clear that the people telling me to make those changes wouldn't be satisfied with anything but complete capitulation on every point instead of genuinely trying to compromise and so rather than chasing those who cannot be pleased, I'd prefer to vote with my heart instead. Removed the second Enhance Industry--which, while excellent, is still pure boring "Make Numbers Go Up" while Seer Circle will at least reduce the difficulty of future scrying attempts, made especially useful with the timing now where we understand precisely the source and some of the fracture points of the working on us. I still believe that it's far too premature to assume we've 'Solved' the mechanics, and that while Industrial boosting is great and all, it's not something we need to max out Yesterday, when we still have so many other things on our plate.

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I am fine with that, given my thread reputation (how little of it exists) gamble on seer circle giving more seer ap, I am satisfied.

 

[Kolar]

@Alectai what are your thoughts on doing Crude and Perfect hybrid? Now that it was brought up I think it a fair compromise to you wanting something now and the apparent majority wanting something better later. The problem, of course, is that it would pull more AP from Haywire and you seem big on that.

 

[Randino Treviani]

So, all of my compromising and discussion was pointless because the people who were telling me to change my plan would just submit another plan entirely anyway? That bending as far as I did from what I thought was the right play was completely pointless?

Right, if that's the case, I'm just going to vote with my heart instead of trying to appeal to people who refuse to compromise at all. Final draft coming.

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I mean, I'm going to vote for my own plan obviously, just because I want more scouts fleets in the webway whatever may come , but your most recent variation is one of the ones I'd approval vote a few hours after the plans drop.

my goal in plan discussion is mainly to get as many of the plan makers agreeing on the same few critical things. you mostly have those in your plan. we have roughly the same warrior and bone singer except I go less heavy in development actions for seer circle instead, which would allow us to take the actions your in favor of in seer circle later from the additional AP it will unlock.

we have different seeker plans but that's mainly because I want haywire bombs quickly more than I want to start the other haywire options. whichever of our plans win, if either of them, will have 70% or 80% similarity, so we are both getting a lot of things we want either way, even if some of the particulars shift in the process.

 

[Alectai]

@Alectai what are your thoughts on doing Crude and Perfect hybrid? Now that it was brought up I think it a fair compromise to you wanting something now and the apparent majority wanting something better later. The problem, of course, is that it would pull mor AP from Haywire and you seem big on that.

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Not really worth it, if we're not going to be able to revisit the topic any time soon regardless, then Crudes will straight up be replaced before long.