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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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[X][PRIORITY] Human Interest in the GBZ
[X][MEDICAL] This is not the time (will be added to future Snakepits)
[X][ORION] Arrange for promising Orion officers to spend a year attending Starfleet Academy
[X][BEE] Push (8pp)
[X][INDORREP] Support the Indorians (15pp)
[X][INDORFIT] Refit the Frigates
[X][KP] Split the four ships up - (8pp) Tauni (8pp) Seyek (8pp) Laio (8pp) Indoria
 
[X][PRIORITY] Human Interest in the GBZ
[X][KP] Split the four ships up (16 pp) - Tauni, Laio
[X][MEDICAL] This is not the time (will be added to future Snakepits)
[X][ORION] Arrange for promising Orion officers to spend a year attending Starfleet Academy
[X][INDORFIT] Refit the Frigates
 
[X][PRIORITY] Human Mid-term Interest in the GBZ
[X][KP] Split the four ships up - (8pp) Tauni (8pp) Tauni (8pp) Laio
[X][MEDICAL] This is not the time (will be added to future Snakepits)
[X][ORION] Arrange for promising Orion officers to spend a year attending Starfleet Academy
[X][BEE] Push (8pp)
[X][INDORREP] Support the Indorians (15pp)
[X][INDORFIT] Refit the Frigates
 
The Indorians need one to beef up their fleet. Lets not forget about them. There is a reason why I put two battleships in my first vote before I changed it. I want the Indorians to be as strong as possible.
Adhoc vote count started by Thors_Alumni on Aug 10, 2017 at 10:26 PM, finished with 135 posts and 39 votes.
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[X][PRIORITY] Human Mid-term Interest in the GBZ
[X][KP] Split the four ships up - (8pp) Tauni (8pp) Tauni (8pp) Laio
[X][MEDICAL] This is not the time (will be added to future Snakepits)
[X][ORION] Arrange for promising Orion officers to spend a year attending Starfleet Academy
[X][BEE] Push (8pp)
[X][INDORREP] Support the Indorians (15pp)
[X][INDORFIT] Refit the Frigates
​
 
Chronic said:
Maybe give em a Ked Peddah battleship? They can certainly easily crew it.
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Andorians already have a sizable fleet and they're pretty much on the Starfleet-pattern bandwagon. I don't see them going for this at all.

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
How many Renaissance are the Indorians building? If it's two, then we can safely donate them a capital ship. If it's three, then their crew can't support it.
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They're just building one at the moment.

Briefvoice said:
I am not sure the Indorians are a valid target for the KP battleship trade. Looking at the text of the vote:

It seems meant for Federation affiliates who do not have full integration or access to Federation technology. The Indorians do and could easily build Excelsior-A for themselves if they wanted to do so, borrowing a Starfleet berth for the purpose as the Humans and Tellarites did.
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Hmm, this is a reasonable argument.

@OneirosTheWriter, care you clarify the possible targets for the Egillah trades?

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
[X][KP] Split the four ships up - (8pp) Tauni (8pp) Tauni (8pp) Laio
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The heck is up with this vote. That's not 4 ships.

And it would be stupid to not keep them all in service for the next decade at the measly price of 8pp per ship. Like, if we had a choice of whether to spend a ~25pp Excelsior cost infusion or buy a 8pp near-Excelsior ship, it's a no-brainer what I'd choose.

Even compared to other snakepit options, it's damn cheap. The only thing I'd choose over 8pp near Excelsior ships are non-BR mining colonies or UP expansions.
 
lbmaian said:
The heck is up with this vote. That's not 4 ships.

And it would be stupid to not keep them all in service for the next decade at the measly price of 8pp per ship. Like, if we had a choice of whether to spend a ~25pp Excelsior cost infusion or buy a 8pp near-Excelsior ship, it's a no-brainer what I'd choose.

Even compared to other snakepit options, it's damn cheap. The only thing I'd choose over 8pp near Excelsior ships are non-BR mining colonies or UP expansions.
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Yeah well, it's not buying a near Excelsior ship for Starfleet, is it? It's buying it for a member world fleet that we will almost never interact with and who will only come up if we get into a shooting war and this one ship becomes important.

Which isn't to say it couldn't happen, but a 25pp cost infusion buys us a ship, and this 8pp expenditure ensures that someone else has one and it might maybe benefit us someday down the line. Completely different things.
 
[X][PRIORITY] Andor Mid-Term: Interest in the GBZ
[X][KP] Split the four ships up - (8pp) Indoria (8pp) Tauni (8pp) Tauni (8pp) Laio
[X][MEDICAL] This is not the time (will be added to future Snakepits)
[X][ORION] Arrange for promising Orion officers to spend a year attending Starfleet Academy
[X][BEE] Push (8pp)
[X][INDORREP] Support theIndorians (15pp)
[X][INDORFIT] Refit the Frigates

EDIT: KP vote changed
 
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Briefvoice said:
Yeah well, it's not buying a near Excelsior ship for Starfleet, is it? It's buying it for a member world fleet that we will almost never interact with and who will only come up if we get into a shooting war and this one ship becomes important.

Which isn't to say it couldn't happen, but a 25pp cost infusion buys us a ship, and this 8pp expenditure ensures that someone else has one and it might maybe benefit us someday down the line. Completely different things.
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I know we're prioritizing Starfleet over everything else, but it's foolish to neglect member fleets. These ships WILL be used in an upcoming war or crisis within the next decade (Oneiros will practically guarantee something "interesting" will happen by then), and we'll be glad that we kept them. Again, 8pp for a ship for a Federation fleet is a steal.

The reason I'm favoring the Andorians for GBZ over Humans:

1) Humans already lead in interest, according to this:
OneirosTheWriter said:
[Caitian trade offers for settlement rights to 5 Firefly proceeding - UESPA leading interest, other interest from Tellar, Andor, Orion, Indoria]
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I find it unlikely it's a case of "single species at a time will sponsor a task force in the GBZ". So the more species that are interested, particular the core Federation members who are starting to fall behind, the better.

2) In terms of member fleet incomes, and excluding the uninterested Vulcans, Andorians rank the last:

OneirosTheWriter said:
Income
Name - BR - SR - Off - Enl - Tech
Andor - 90 - 65 - 1.2 - 2 - 2
Vulcan - 55 - 55 - 1.75 - 2.75 - 2.5
Tellar - 95 - 60 - 1.65 - 2.75 - 2.15
Earth - 110 - 70 - 2 - 2.2 - 2.2
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Their current reserve of resources also doesn't help much:

OneirosTheWriter said:
Resources
Name - BR - SR - Off - Enl - Tech
Andor - 180 - 110 - 10.4 - 12.5 - 15.5
Vulcan - 85 -85 - 0.75 - 1.2 - 3.25
Tellar - 330 - 125 - 0 - 0 - 1
Earth - 175 - 70 - 3 - 0.4 - 3.7
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3) With the exception of the uninterested Vulcans, the Andorians now have the smallest fleet of the core four:
Andor: C54 S46 D49 (excluding the Soyuz they're scrapping)
Tellar: C64 S46 D59
Human: C60 S43 D53

and with the resource incomes, it's just going to get worse.

Plus, they only have a single Rennie while Tellar and Humans have three Rennies each.
 
lbmaian said:
I know we're prioritizing Starfleet over everything else, but it's foolish to neglect member fleets. These ships WILL be used in an upcoming war or crisis within the next decade (Oneiros will practically guarantee something "interesting" will happen by then), and we'll be glad that we kept them. Again, 8pp for a ship for a Federation fleet is a steal.
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It might be used in a crisis if the crisis happens on the correct side of the Federation. I didn't see Apiata ships doing a whole lot during the Arcadian war, for instance. And it's hardly neglecting member fleets not to get them an opportunity at an otherwise-scrapped last-generation ship. It's perfectly possible that we will never in fact be glad we kept them. I mean, it could happen, but it could not happen as well.

Frankly, I worry a little bit if these guys even have a berth big enough to take care of this ship during minor refits or if it gets damaged.

The reason I'm favoring the Andorians for GBZ over Humans:

1) Humans already lead in interest, according to this:

I find it unlikely it's a case of "single species at a time will sponsor a task force in the GBZ". So the more species that are interested, particular the core Federation members who are starting to fall behind, the better.

2) In terms of member fleet incomes, and excluding the uninterested Vulcans, Andorians rank the last:
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Yeah, but I'd like to see humans remain a key industrial power of the Federation and be a member species at least as important as the Amarkians or the Apinae. I don't care as much if the Andorians fade in importance.

3) With the exception of the uninterested Vulcans, the Andorians now have the smallest fleet of the core four:
Andor: C54 S46 D49 (excluding the Soyuz they're scrapping)
Tellar: C64 S46 D59
Human: C60 S43 D53

and with the resource incomes, it's just going to get worse.

Plus, they only have a single Rennie while Tellar and Humans have three Rennies each.
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That argument also works in reverse, though. The idea of getting a member to take an interest in the Gabriel Border Zoen from our point of view is that they can send ships to the GBZ to help explore and claim it. That means that if the Humans have three Rennies, they can send up to three Rennies. A race without as big or as modern a fleet isn't worth as much in helping us secure the sector for Federation use.
 
[X][PRIORITY] Andor Mid-Term: Interest in the GBZ

[X][KP] Split the four ships up - (8pp) Indoria (8pp) Tauni (8pp) Tauni (8pp) Laio
[Edited- I have to vote tactically if I want the Indorians to get any battleships]

[X][MEDICAL] This is not the time (will be added to future Snakepits)
I may vote for this the next time it comes up in the snakepit, but I'd rather not burn the 30pp before I get a chance to see the 2318 snakepit.

[X][ORION] Arrange for promising Orion officers to spend a year attending Starfleet Academy

[X][BEE] Push (8pp)

[X][INDORREP] Support the Indorians (15pp)

[X][INDORFIT] Refit the Frigates

@OneirosTheWriter, we have a LOT of vote splitting going on with the KP vote. I'm not sure how best to handle it, but I don't think the current method is working well. For instance, there are 12 or 13 votes that involve giving at least one of the battleships to the Indorians, but the leading option is "no battleship for Indorians" by a margin of 12 to... 9, I think.

Can we maybe have a second vote for this that works like the REPORT votes in Intelligence, where we have options to vote for things like

[]Battleship for the Tauni
[]Battleship for the Indorians
[]Battleship for the Risans
[]Battleship for the Seyek
[]Second Battleship for the <Write-In>

...?

I think that would work a lot better for capturing a weighted average of who wants ships to go where. And we could then pick the four highest candidates and give the battleships out accordingly.
 
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Briefvoice said:
It might be used in a crisis if the crisis happens on the correct side of the Federation. I didn't see Apiata ships doing a whole lot during the Arcadian war, for instance. And it's hardly neglecting member fleets not to get them an opportunity at an otherwise-scrapped last-generation ship. It's perfectly possible that we will never in fact be glad we kept them. I mean, it could happen, but it could not happen as well.

Frankly, I worry a little bit if these guys even have a berth big enough to take care of this ship during minor refits or if it gets damaged.
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I think it's quite naive to assume that Cardassian tensions won't escalate into conflict during the viable lifespan of these ships. We're talking on the order of a decade here.

And that's for the Indorians and Risans. You already seem fine with Tauni and Laio having such ships to help defend against the Horizonites.

Yeah, but I'd like to see humans remain a key industrial power of the Federation and be a member species at least as important as the Amarkians or the Apinae. I don't care as much if the Andorians fade in importance.
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Nash ka'Sharren: *raised antennae*

That explains the Human dominance of Starfleet sooo much

That argument also works in reverse, though. The idea of getting a member to take an interest in the Gabriel Border Zoen from our point of view is that they can send ships to the GBZ to help explore and claim it. That means that if the Humans have three Rennies, they can send up to three Rennies. A race without as big or as modern a fleet isn't worth as much in helping us secure the sector for Federation use.
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Not in the context of my other arguments. I'm already expecting the Humans to be interested in the GBZ anyway. In any case, I doubt a Human, Tellarite, or Andorian member fleet is going to send more than 2 cruisers.
 
We would also need a "scrap (save 8pp)" option

e: and if we're going thorough, a Scrap 2, and a Scrap 3, and a Scrap 4. In fact, how many to distribute should probably be separate from where

Or we could just vote merge what we have
 
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SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
We would also need a "scrap (save 8pp)" option
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Okay, that's fair. The list would look like

[] [KP] Send battleship to <Write-In> (cost: 8pp)
[] [KP] Send a second battleship to <Write-In> (cost: 8pp)
[] [KP] Send a third battleship to <Write-In> (cost: 8pp)
[] [KP] Send the fourth battleship to <Write-In> (cost: 8pp)

[] [KP] Scrap one battleship
[] [KP] Scrap a second battleship
[] [KP] Scrap a third battleship
[] [KP] Scrap a fourth battleship

Taking the four most popular picks from a list like this would give an accurate impression. You could write a straight "scrap everything" ticket. You could vote:

[] Send battleship to Laio
[] Send battleship to Tauni
[] Scrap one battleship
[] Scrap a second battleship

Or you could vote

[] Send battleship to Tauni
[] Send a second battleship to Tauni
[] Send battleship to Indorians
[] Send battleship to Seyek

And you wouldn't have to worry that if you vote for the latter choice, you're splitting the "battleship for Tauni" vote by supporting "in fact, give the Tauni TWO battleships!" Or by supporting "battleship for Indorians" and "don't scrap two of the four battleships."
 
Simon_Jester said:
Okay, that's fair. The list would look like

[] [KP] Send battleship to <Write-In> (cost: 8pp)
[] [KP] Send a second battleship to <Write-In> (cost: 8pp)
[] [KP] Send a third battleship to <Write-In> (cost: 8pp)
[] [KP] Send the fourth battleship to <Write-In> (cost: 8pp)

[] [KP] Scrap one battleship
[] [KP] Scrap a second battleship
[] [KP] Scrap a third battleship
[] [KP] Scrap a fourth battleship

Taking the four most popular picks from a list like this would give an accurate impression. You could write a straight "scrap everything" ticket. You could vote:

[] Send battleship to Laio
[] Send battleship to Tauni
[] Scrap one battleship
[] Scrap a second battleship

Or you could vote

[] Send battleship to Tauni
[] Send a second battleship to Tauni
[] Send battleship to Indorians
[] Send battleship to Seyek

And you wouldn't have to worry that if you vote for the latter choice, you're splitting the "battleship for Tauni" vote by supporting "in fact, give the Tauni TWO battleships!" Or by supporting "battleship for Indorians" and "don't scrap two of the four battleships."
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To be fair though, if you did that, you would pretty much be 100% guaranteed that your choice wouldn't actually happen but something kind of like it might. I prefer a set of two subvotes:
[][KP] Send battleship to <write-in>
[][KP] Send second battleship to <write-in>
[][KP] Send third battleship to <write-in>
[][KP] Send fourth battleship to <write-in>

[][KP#] Send <write-in number> battleships

That way the plurality on the # vote will be sent, the rest scrapped, and the top <number> of locations (or second locations) will be chosen.


BUT, that's all unnecessary, because I see nothing wrong with how we count it right now. This quest has always run on the plurality and the votes are clearly different enough that they ought to be split.
 
I don't think it's a momentous enough vote to break out like that, and I'm fine to just leave it with whatever specific plan nets enough.

With the Egillah, anybody shy of the current Fed tech base, or well short of industry/berth space - that is, the Tauni, Laio, the Ashidi (don't pick the Ashidi, the KP will not react well), the Betazoids, Caldonians.

The Lamarck are too far back. The Risans possibly could, but they will take a while to wrap their head around a starship with a highly functional tactical suite, but I'm sure the nacelles will be suitably impressive. The Indorians would be interested and would let them focus their efforts on refitting their existing inventory.
 
Given that information that the ship will be useful to the Indorians, but of questionable use to the Risans, I'm going to change my vote again:

[X][KP] Split the four ships up - (8pp) Indoria (8pp) Tauni (8pp) Tauni (8pp) Laio
[X][PRIORITY] Andor Mid-Term: Interest in the GBZ

That gives the Tauni the two ships that they likely need and also the Indorians one, while cutting the Risan ship that they may not want.

I checked and this vote is indeed unique right now.
 
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Okay I like that a lot better. The Risa thing was a "lol I wanna see their reaction", but 2 Egillah for Tauni is better, strictly speaking.

[X][KP] Split the four ships up - (8pp) Indoria (8pp) Tauni (8pp) Tauni (8pp) Laio
[X][PRIORITY] Andor Mid-Term: Interest in the GBZ
 
I'm sad that we can't hand the surfer dudes a warship for the lols, but I guess that this is meaningful enough to be worth putting effort into.

[X][KP] Split the four ships up - (8pp) Indoria (8pp) Tauni (8pp) Tauni (8pp) Laio
 
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