[X][PLAN] Base Plan Re-balancing Analysis
-[X] San Francisco Fleetyards : 2320s Starship Safety
-[X] Inid Uttar Institute : 2330s Anti-Cloaking Sensors
-[X] Admiral Lathriss : Mutual Support
-[X] Kuznetsova's Tiger Team : Klingon Research
-[X] Technocracy Interstellar Ministry : Cardassian Research
[X][STARBASE] Henn-Makad Engineering Institute : 2310s Starbase Design - Repair
[X][SHIELDS] Andorian Academy : 2320s Deflector Shields
[X][BOOST] Tiger Team, Starfleet Infectious Diseases Institute, Generic Teams 2, 3, 4.
[X][DOCTRINE] Games & Theory Division: Base Strike Doctrine

The ability to declare In Excelsis on Ambassadors when we get Galaxies will be broke as hell
 
I'd agree with @SynchronizedWritersBlock . Base Strike is also what will allow us to really win wars by crippling enemy shipbuilding easier via wrecking their orbitals. If we go decisive battle we can probably make our own territory tough to crack, but e'll have a harder time with Starbase assaults. Which, in my mind, could just lead to wars without end as Cardassians or whomever just keep building fleets and smashing into us, or negotiated settlements. If we learned anything from the Licori war its that we need the most help in taking on outposts and Starbases.

[Lights a pipe and stares wistfully into the distance]

You know, it brings me back to my days playing Mount and Blade, which if you've never heard of it, is a game where you play in a medieval setting and help your King conquer all the other kingdoms.

Now in this game I loved the open battles on the field. I would gather a bunch of expensive, elite cavalry and quash my opponents in the trample of hooves. I could beat opponents twice my number! It was pretty sick.

However to expand my Kings territory I needed to conquer castles. And that I did not like. It was a miserable, slow grind, yet I had to do it to win.

I guess my point is if I had to modify the game to make anything easier, it'd be the sieges, not the field battle. Also that we should look at adding horses to the fleet. Is that a research tree item?

[x]SynchronizedWritersBlock
 
Crit rate is nuts. Literally, a single crit has won us battles.
And focusing fire on wounded ships is also nuts. It's the best attack pattern by far.

Furthermore:



Oneiros has stated that there is no significant difference between Galaxy Wing and Attack Pattern Omega. So you'll expect a 50% boost in Galaxy Wing too.

Overall, Decisive Battle has worse tools for decisive battle than Base Strike. I actually would rather not have Decisive Battle's attack pattern, as shield+combat means we'll end up pounding on an outpost for days while the fleet gets shredded around us. It's actually unhelpful.

The industry boosts are a thing, but not so much that I'd want it over actually good combat boosts.



Make no mistake everyone. Base Strike is better at fighting than Decisive Battle.
It's impossible to say for sure which doctrine is better for battle because there are too many techs without numbers attached. But counting the C+L target priority against Decisive Battle when the by far the worst target priority (starbases/outposts) belongs to Base Strike is more than just a bit silly. And you are overvaluing attack patterns/target priorities/tactics, those don't require the doctrine to be active so we can eventually gain access to all of them and our commanders cherry pick the best ones. We don't even necessarily have to wait until after we finished our chosen doctrine if there is something worth rushing.
 
Make no mistake everyone, this is not true when an outpost/starbase is not involved in the fight.

Yes Coordinated Fire is pretty nice, but let's not make the mistake of obsessing about one single slide.

Galaxy Wing = Attack Pattern Omega
Steamrunner Wing = Torpedo Charge (Seems likely; flavor strongly implies Steamrunner Wing's increased crit rate is limited to frigates.)
Spearhead < Sensor Pickets (as I said)

If we look at battles not involving fighting around an Outpost or Starbase

Base Strike has: Coordinated Fire

Decisive Battle has: Feints, Battle Bridge Link, Vanguard, and Auxiliary to Shields

Pretty sure those four together are better than Coordinated Fire.

No, they are not.

Coordinated Fire alone kicks the crap out of the rest, but Battle Bridge Link is also far worse than the combination of Steamrunner Wing and Nor Battle to the Strong. I also disagree that Steamrunner Wing is the same as Torpedo Charge, the wording seems quite clear.

On an Excelsior-A +1L is 10% increase in durability. On an Ambassador it's 6.25%. A Rennie, 11%. On a Miranda-A, 20%. Auxiliary to Shields counter-intuitively benefits frigates more than larger ships, but frigates are the ships that don't want their evasion or D cut, especially with Feints depending on D score into the Heavy Metal phase. It depends of course on the degree of loss, but let's say 5% evasion, -1D. It could well be -2D though. That's about a 5% increase in Excelsior-A durability, 6.25% to Ambassador, 6.28% to Rennie, 6.9% to the Miri-A. I doubt the Mirandas or any other frigate will take that since we need their D score, so I'll call it a capship and cruiser buff.

So overall, Decisive Battle is looking at a loss in crucial areas including:
- Large loss to fleet value
- Large loss to targeting priority
- Large loss to crit chance
Meanwhile, it has:
- Large gain to vanguard
- Gain to scouting
- Approx 6% to capship and cruiser durability

And obviously when defending a Starbase (an activity we expect to be doing in the opening phases of the war we expect to be fighting), all of this goes out the window in favor massively of Base Strike, as it does when attacking a starbase or outpost.


It's impossible to say for sure which doctrine is better for battle because there are too many techs without numbers attached. But counting the C+L target priority against Decisive Battle when the by far the worst target priority (starbases/outposts) belongs to Base Strike is more than just a bit silly. And you are overvaluing attack patterns/target priorities/tactics, those don't require the doctrine to be active so we can eventually gain access to all of them and our commanders cherry pick the best ones. We don't even necessarily have to wait until after we finished our chosen doctrine if there is something worth rushing.

I would look at how the tactic is described to determine where our commanders will use it, and compare that to where we want a target priority to be used. I see very few situations where we want to focus down enemy capital ships, and it's actively detrimental in many situations as cruisers are the better target, in almost every heavy metal phase actually. I can see situations where when fighting over an enemy installation, we'd want to attack the installation, especially given the big buffs we'd have to doing so.

On the other hand basically every situation where we shoot a ship that is damaged already is a good one for us.
 
[X] [DOCTRINE] Games & Theory Division: Base Strike Doctrine

If we're looking at the numbers, I think that I'm going to agree with SWB.

If we're looking at this narratively... does the Federation win by economic warfare, by making the enemy's people unwilling to continue fighting, or by straight counterforce? Counterforce feels not very Federation-y. Economic warfare vs. destroying political will... not sure, but the latter feels more like the kind of thing that'd lead to unrestricted submarine warfare and terror bombings, and those are definitely not federation-y. I don't think that we can work diplomacy/propaganda in as part of this discussion, which is where the most Federation-y victories would come from. So I'm going to come down on economics: The Federation blows up critical infrastructure and chokes the opposing military out.
 
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It's impossible to say for sure which doctrine is better for battle because there are too many techs without numbers attached. But counting the C+L target priority against Decisive Battle when the by far the worst target priority (starbases/outposts) belongs to Base Strike is more than just a bit silly. And you are overvaluing attack patterns/target priorities/tactics, those don't require the doctrine to be active so we can eventually gain access to all of them and our commanders cherry pick the best ones. We don't even necessarily have to wait until after we finished our chosen doctrine if there is something worth rushing.
Are you certain that all of those things are doctrine-agnostic?

Also, while priority target starbase/outpost is bad, Base Strike also has Hull + HP Lost. IE: Focus fire.
 
It's impossible to say for sure which doctrine is better for battle because there are too many techs without numbers attached. But counting the C+L target priority against Decisive Battle when the by far the worst target priority (starbases/outposts) belongs to Base Strike is more than just a bit silly.

This A: ignores that it still has the best attack pattern anyways and B: ignores that that target priority for outposts and starbases is actually ideal for raiding forces.
 
No, they are not.

Coordinated Fire alone kicks the crap out of the rest, but Battle Bridge Link is also far worse than the combination of Steamrunner Wing and Nor Battle to the Strong. I also disagree that Steamrunner Wing is the same as Torpedo Charge, the wording seems quite clear.

Are you recommending that Coordinated Fire needs to be nerfed? Because Decisive Battle ought to be the best doctrine for fighting space battles. If we want to be the best at fighting space battles, we should vote for it and then ask for a mechanics fix if necessary.

Still pretty sure that Steamrunner Wing = Torpedo charge. The language is all about escorts/frigates.
 
I would look at how the tactic is described to determine where our commanders will use it, and compare that to where we want a target priority to be used. I see very few situations where we want to focus down enemy capital ships, and it's actively detrimental in many situations as cruisers are the better target, in almost every heavy metal phase actually. I can see situations where when fighting over an enemy installation, we'd want to attack the installation, especially given the big buffs we'd have to doing so.
There aren't really any situations where prioritizing shields makes sense, but prioritizing combat can make quite a lot of sense (you are targeting the ship that can do the most damage to you, and as hull isn't considered you will tend to attack the ships with the highest C:H ratio, where a certain amount of damage will reduce their damage potential the most), enough so that it still makes sense in combination with shields. In any situation where some of the enemy ships are glass cannons like the Lorgot, the Stinger or the Seyek Battleships for instance. Or when the smaller ships have high evasion. Or when you need to worry about losing damage potential to overkill. In contrast I can't imagine any circumstances where targeting Starbases is better than C+L. Usually they will end up being the same, but when they differ I'd rather target C+L, because quite possibly the reason they differ is because the installation has taken subsystem damage and can't fire back anyway, and even otherwise installations are the opposite of glass cannons, enough so that +5% damage and +2% burn-through can't make up for it (if the installation has a 50% worse C:H ratio 5% extra damage doesn't help much).
 
Is directly comparing the combat boni really worthwhile? With Decisive Battle we wont have to rely on battles between equaly sized fleet chunks. It will be our massive United Fleet Sector fleet against whatever the enemy can assemble to stop us from rolling over them. Any comparisons of battle effectiveness would need to include a numerical advantage towards the fleet using the strategy of acting like a giant wrecking ball.
When a war is about to be decided by an equal fight between Base Strike and Decisive Battle the latter has already fucked up massively.

Similiarily Decisive Battle sucking against Starbase wont matter much because a fleet using it should only attack a Starbase while having an overwhelming advantage.


If we're looking at this narratively... does the Federation win by economic warfare, by making the enemy's people unwilling to continue fighting, or by straight counterforce? Counterforce feels not very Federation-y. Economic warfare vs. destroying political will... not sure, but the latter feels more like the kind of thing that'd lead to unrestricted submarine warfare and terror bombings, and those are definitely not federation-y. I don't think that we can work diplomacy/propaganda in as part of this discussion, which is where the most Federation-y victories would come from. So I'm going to come down on economics: The Federation blows up critical infrastructure and chokes the opposing military out.

Blowing up infrastructure will always negatively effect civilians though. Choking a military out cant happen without also hurting the ones giving them the air.
I think destroying anything with guns attached to it until the enemy is forced to sit at a table somewhere we can throw the FDS at them is pretty Starfleety. The whole "only killing those who come us with a weapon in hand" fits much more than bombing industry until the all of the opponent is paralysed.
 
This A: ignores that it still has the best attack pattern anyways and B: ignores that that target priority for outposts and starbases is actually ideal for raiding forces.
If there are both Starbases/Outposts and ships to shoot at you are essentially always better off shooting at the ships first and at the installations once the battle is won, whether raiding or not. Outposts and Starbases are much tougher, much easier to replace and can't flee. Now if it was a targeting priority for shipyards and the like and those were actually modeled as being part of the battle then you'd have a target priority that would be very useful for raiding. But as it stands Starbases + Outposts is the worst target priority even for raiding.
 
Is directly comparing the combat boni really worthwhile? With Decisive Battle we wont have to rely on battles between equaly sized fleet chunks. It will be our massive United Fleet Sector fleet against whatever the enemy can assemble to stop us from rolling over them. Any comparisons of battle effectiveness would need to include a numerical advantage towards the fleet using the strategy of acting like a giant wrecking ball.
Such is the power of the doomstack.
 
If we're looking at this narratively... does the Federation win by economic warfare, by making the enemy's people unwilling to continue fighting, or by straight counterforce? Counterforce feels not very Federation-y. Economic warfare vs. destroying political will... not sure, but the latter feels more like the kind of thing that'd lead to unrestricted submarine warfare and terror bombings, and those are definitely not federation-y. I don't think that we can work diplomacy/propaganda in as part of this discussion, which is where the most Federation-y victories would come from. So I'm going to come down on economics: The Federation blows up critical infrastructure and chokes the opposing military out.

This is an interesting question, actually, because it can be seen multiple ways. In terms of implied threat to other states, for example, the ranking would be Wolfpack (people might starve but the state will retain the majority of its instruments for keeping control and its basic machinery, so it will probably survive), Decisive Battle (The state will lose its means to maintain control and suffer a serious prestige hit but the basic machinery of the state will keep functioning and nobody starves, so it might survive) and Base Strike as most threatening (it will cost the state the machinery that makes it run, a huge prestige hit, and at least a small amount of ability to enforce its will; it will probably not survive).

Put another way, Wolf Pack is taking over the street in front of their house and shooting at them whenever they use it, Decisive Battle is occupying the front lawn with sandbagged positions and foxholes oriented for a crossfire on the door, and Base Strike is where we invade the house itself and plant demolition charges on all the appliances.
 
Regarding Steamrunner Wing being equivalent to Torpedo Charge...

Steamrunner Wing
Escorts operating in formation can pose a formidible threat, using torpedo spreads to corral the enemy.

0 / 35 Steamrunner Wing (Unlock Tactic: Steamrunner Wing, enemy fleet value reduced, your critical hit rate increased)

Torpedo Charge
Sometimes all it takes for David to strike down Goliath is the courage to try.

0 / 35 Frigate Assault (Unlock Torpedo Charge: enemy cruiser and explorer evasion halved, chance of critical hits from frigates increased)

So Steamrunner is all ship's crit rates are increased, while it's only frigates for Torpedo charge. Are they increased at the same rate, I have no idea. The first part of each benefit feels like apples to oranges to me, so I'll let someone with more knowledge of the combat system speak about that item.
 
But as it stands Starbases + Outposts is the worst target priority even for raiding.

Given our experiences at the Battle of Ixaria, this statement cannot be taken as a given on multiple levels; first that shipyards and the like will not be counted as such, second that outposts and starbases will not be the priority targets over enemy ships due to commanding fixed defense grids or exotic defenses. It furthermore cannot be taken as a given based on the various starbase techs that offer bonuses to command and control, which will allow them to boost combat-relevant stats of defending vessels.
 
It's impossible to say for sure which doctrine is better for battle because there are too many techs without numbers attached. But counting the C+L target priority against Decisive Battle when the by far the worst target priority (starbases/outposts) belongs to Base Strike is more than just a bit silly. And you are overvaluing attack patterns/target priorities/tactics, those don't require the doctrine to be active so we can eventually gain access to all of them and our commanders cherry pick the best ones. We don't even necessarily have to wait until after we finished our chosen doctrine if there is something worth rushing.

Is directly comparing the combat boni really worthwhile? With Decisive Battle we wont have to rely on battles between equaly sized fleet chunks. It will be our massive United Fleet Sector fleet against whatever the enemy can assemble to stop us from rolling over them. Any comparisons of battle effectiveness would need to include a numerical advantage towards the fleet using the strategy of acting like a giant wrecking ball.
When a war is about to be decided by an equal fight between Base Strike and Decisive Battle the latter has already fucked up massively.

Similiarily Decisive Battle sucking against Starbase wont matter much because a fleet using it should only attack a Starbase while having an overwhelming advantage.




Blowing up infrastructure will always negatively effect civilians though. Choking a military out cant happen without also hurting the ones giving them the air.
I think destroying anything with guns attached to it until the enemy is forced to sit at a table somewhere we can throw the FDS at them is pretty Starfleety. The whole "only killing those who come us with a weapon in hand" fits much more than bombing industry until the all of the opponent is paralysed.

However, to end a war by parking a Galaxy over Cardassia Prime, you have to blow up a few Starbases.

The question is: will the Cardassians have civilians aboard Starbases, Outposts, Stations, and Ships? No. They aren't Starfleet.

We have civilians aboard because we can - because it reminds us that we are an exploration force first, and military second.

We are here to boldly go where no one has gone before.
 
For crit rate also it has been added to a lot of techs under the weapon tree so doctrine is not the only place it occurs. In addition it is hard to evaluate as we don't know how much it will increase the crit rate so that we can compare it to other effects.

For base strike, if we use Steamrunner Wing we are not using the Galaxy Wing as both are tactics so one would be selected. Decisive battle does not have that issue. Also decisive battle fleet value boost always happens when we have a fleet, so it would work great for the low level GBZ conflict since we will not have an EC ship there, which base strike needs for its boost. And the increased damage from our cruisers in the Vanguard phase can tip things, though once again that is a tech without exact numbers, we just now it increases but not by how much (1%, 5%, etc)
 
Is directly comparing the combat boni really worthwhile? With Decisive Battle we wont have to rely on battles between equaly sized fleet chunks. It will be our massive United Fleet Sector fleet against whatever the enemy can assemble to stop us from rolling over them. Any comparisons of battle effectiveness would need to include a numerical advantage towards the fleet using the strategy of acting like a giant wrecking ball.
When a war is about to be decided by an equal fight between Base Strike and Decisive Battle the latter has already fucked up massively.

Similiarily Decisive Battle sucking against Starbase wont matter much because a fleet using it should only attack a Starbase while having an
Decisive Battle has 25% of affiliate and member fleets right off the bat, but nothing but time stops us from gathering up the same number of ships under any other doctrine. Neither will initial member contributions equal zero under other doctrines. The maximum levy and total fleet size will be the same under a full war scenario, the only difference is how long it takes to get there.
 
Given our experiences at the Battle of Ixaria, this statement cannot be taken as a given on multiple levels; first that shipyards and the like will not be counted as such, second that outposts and starbases will not be the priority targets over enemy ships due to commanding fixed defense grids or exotic defenses. It furthermore cannot be taken as a given based on the various starbase techs that offer bonuses to command and control, which will allow them to boost combat-relevant stats of defending vessels.
Even if there was a shipyard that also counted as a starbase that still wouldn't make it a good target to shoot at first because it would still have the toughness essential for a starbase. The exotic tech at Ixaria was the extreme exception, the various constrol stations for the most part weren't outposts, and the whole operation wasn't a raid. The starbase techs for command and control are all for sector level command and control, for event response. They are irrelevant during battles. The +1L for defending a starbase still applies when outnumbered, so destoying the starbase first isn't a viable way to circumvent that (if you are assaulting a Starbase you need to outnumber the defending fleet to have any chance at all, and if you lost enough ships to stop outnumbering them after destroying the starbase that implies that your other ships will almost certainly have taken so much damage that you have no chance of winning anyway).
However, to end a war by parking a Galaxy over Cardassia Prime, you have to blow up a few Starbases.
It's not true that we necessarily need to destroy Starbases to win a war, but as the wargame we just conducted showed heavily outnumbering the opposition is a fine way to go about it, special bonuses specifically against Starbases are not particularly needed, having destroyed their fleet in a decisive battle beforehand will do just fine.
 
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Blowing up infrastructure will always negatively effect civilians though. Choking a military out cant happen without also hurting the ones giving them the air.
I think destroying anything with guns attached to it until the enemy is forced to sit at a table somewhere we can throw the FDS at them is pretty Starfleety. The whole "only killing those who come us with a weapon in hand" fits much more than bombing industry until the all of the opponent is paralysed.
I think that this becomes less and less true as civilizations advance and military technology becomes more and more separated from civilian technology. Like, even up to the modern day you're absolutely right, cf. famines during the thirty years' war and metal shortages in Nazi Germany near the end of WWII. But starting around WWI you start having targets that you can hit that will have effects focused much more on military logistics than on civilian supply. For example, blowing up a huge tank factory in WWII would cripple a military's supply but would have effectively zero civilian repercussions. These days, consider things like Lockheed-Martin's big factory in Forth Worth; blow that up and it'd take the USAF literally a decade to recover, maybe two. By the time of Star Trek I expect that this separation will have become almost complete. We could completely wreck space-born industry and basically all that'd happen planetside is people have to fall back to last-generation gameboys.

Additionally, hitting starbases doesn't directly stop civilian shipping. It just cripples their defenses, causing vulnerabilities that we can then exploit if we choose to. Hitting shipyards is a bit more directly problematic, but I'd expect that we can still get excellent results by leaving behind the smaller yards (<500kt, say?) that wouldn't be able to make anything that's militarily useful. Blowing up mining colonies is the most likely to cause issues, but I think that almost all of that might already go to the war effort?
 
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