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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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Briefvoice said:
Since we are currently debating Kepler designs, does this imply anything about what we need to make the Kepler able to fill a suitable Scout role?
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Let me take it from the opposite direction and look at what we would want for a design 100% focused on the main scout role, without event rewards being an issue at all.

We would definitely want S8, since that's possible without completely sacrificing all other stats, and there is no such thing as diminishing returns in the scouting phase. If we assume the second highest S score among skirmish ships is S5 then S8 offers 50% more benefit than S7, if it's S4 then still 33% more. We would also want at least H2 L4 because the ship needs to be able to last through skirmish and vanguard phases, preferably without taking hull damage. After that D as high as possible, also without diminishing returns, but not as important because more ships are sharing the job. C is also useful, but not critical. Cost is not very important because it's one ship doing a critical job that can't be shared.

In addition it would be extremely desirable for all main scouts we are going to use in a campaign to already be blooded or better. Therefore we would want to have them deployed in sectors/border zones for a couple of years beforehand. It looks like P is pretty useful for leveling up (consider how none of our Oberths except the T'Mir (as voted) leveled up, and the T'Mir, then P2, leveled up a second time despite that requiring much more xp. Also compare with Centaurs) so we would really want the ship to have a bit of a presence score as well. Perhaps P3. Something like a 10% extra chance of being blooded in time for a war would be more valuable than say +1C. As D cannot be raised by veterancy D should be the second highest stat.

So an ideal stat line might look something like

C2-3, S8 H2-3 L4-5 P2-3 D5-6.

Again, this isn't considering event rewards at all.
 
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lbmaian said:
Do NOT do this via Google Sheets scripting. Unless you can twist it and exploit the crap out of its implicit spreadsheet parallelism, it's going to be slow af. Admittedly I haven't tested script perf without sheet API usage, but if formulas are already visibility slowing down the sheet, that doesn't bode well here; and there seems to be a usage quota performance limit of sorts anyway. Oh, and have fun playing around with an outdated version of Javascript (although technically you could probably use the Babel transpiler). It would probably be better to dump the part/frame/module raw stats, then code up a solver, replicating all the stats/costs formulas, in whatever language/system you're most comfortable with, and put a UI on top of it, which is absolutely critical for such a multidimensional problem.

That, along with my limited time, are the reasons I haven't attempt something like this yet. And instead rely on human computers like SWB.

(No, I'm not supremely annoyed with Google Sheets, why do you ask? /s)
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I'm slowly converting Aeqnai's deployment spreadsheet over to app script for readability purposes, and... yeaaaaaah, doing this in app script already wasn't happening purely due to computational load, but it's double not happening because it's just an awful environment in the first place. I'm vaguely expecting runs to be measured in hours or days and I don't think that app script is even usable at that scale. Plus debugging it is already going to be a PITA.

UI is a... maybe. It's probably going to be more of the form "Run all the variations, dump it all to disk, and then find a nice way to present the output". Might even do something silly like approach this as a satisfiability problem and just sweep through reasonable volumes of the configuration space of possible target statlines minimizing costs.
 
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Nix said:
Therefore we would want to have them deployed in sectors/border zones for a couple of years beforehand. It looks like P is pretty useful for leveling up (consider how none of our Oberths except the T'Mir (as voted) leveled up, and the T'Mir, then P2, leveled up a second time despite that requiring much more xp.
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This seems to be drawing an inference by ignoring the necessary data rather than incorporating it. The T'Mir's second level-up had little or nothing to do with being P2, especially if you consider T'Mir was literally out of event-response circulation for a whole year while she played AGI operating against the Cardassians. (Which likely had much more to do with her second level-up.) The ship has taken extremely few if any presence checks. Being P2 had nothing to do with it.
 
Nix said:
I'm pretty sure you misunderstood what those roles are supposed to be. What we previously argued about was the role that is called "flexible skirmisher" here, I don't think we ever touched on anything like the "backup scout" as defined here.
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Well, backup scout or rather, small fleet scout, would be essentially what I mean when I talk about a S4 combat frigate. That's not quite the same as the flexible skirmisher which you outline as a skirmish/vanguard frigate, which we also discussed. I do think we have the design chops to make a combined backup scout / skirmish / vanguard frigate that fills most of your criteria: the latest H3 L5 multirole would gain veterancy, would survive skirmish/vanguard before withdrawing, would contribute strongly to a combined D check in skirmish, could backup scout, and would be at best adequate in the full vanguard/main.

Such a ship could have C4 S4 L5 D4, for example, and wouldn't require to be purpose built for a specific phase of battle, as it skirmishes excellently and won't instantly explode in any other phase. We of course still have the Kepler.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
Well, backup scout or rather, small fleet scout, would be essentially what I mean when I talk about a S4 combat frigate. That's not quite the same as the flexible skirmisher which you outline as a skirmish/vanguard frigate, which we also discussed. I do think we have the design chops to make a combined backup scout / skirmish / vanguard frigate that fills most of your criteria: the latest H3 L5 multirole would gain veterancy, would survive skirmish/vanguard before withdrawing, would contribute strongly to a combined D check in skirmish, could backup scout, and would be at best adequate in the full vanguard/main.

Such a ship could have C4 S4 L5 D4, for example, and wouldn't require to be purpose built for a specific phase of battle, as it skirmishes excellently and won't instantly explode in any other phase. We of course still have the Kepler.
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In the scheme above that would be a class that does well in the roles of skirmisher/minesweeper (as opposed to pure skirmisher for people who don't deal with mines or are happy to sweep mines using their shields/hulls/faces) and flexible skirmisher. I agree that such a class would be useful to have.

With backup scout I meant the following role: Imagine your skirmishers all have S2, and you have a scout with stats like C1 S8 H1 L2 D1, which you want to withdraw before the skirmish phase. If that one scout in your fleet is damaged you have a problem. If you bring two scouts one of them is sitting idle for most battles. It would be useful to have a "backup scout" or two with stats like C3 S6 H2 L4 D5 and which normally acts as a skirmisher. That's a separate thing from wanting your normal skirmishers to have good science anyway, and it's a bit pointless if they already do, or your main scout class is already a good enough skirmisher that it doesn't hurt to bring two. Basically it's a role that doesn't even make sense for us to think about, I was thinking more about the Klingons and Romulans when I came up with it. Perhaps the naming of the roles could be improved though.
 
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Nix said:
Since it doesn't look like help or insight is going to come around for the question on how advantage is gained in the vanguard phase here what I can say about the needed/useful roles in the current battle system without that (this is essentially the second half of this post):

In general a ship only suited to one phase of the battle that is not the main battle is highly undesirable because that weakens the fleet in other phases. Doing well in two phases is better than doing excellently in one phase and then leaving, or worse, not being able to leave yet and be a liability, like Oberths were in the skirmish phase due to low reaction whenever they were used to help us move though a minefield (and therefore required to be part of the skirmish line).

Participates in vanguard phase and main battle.
Fights for the longest time and faces capitals in the main battle, so any ship here needs to be either durable, cheap and expendable or a combination of both. High combat might be useful for winning advantage in the vanguard phase itself.

Stat profile: L >= H >= C > S, cheap.

Example classes (and how well they fit):
Jaldun(B+, based on known crew cost and estimated resource cost of 120BR 60SR), Combat Takaaki(B+, ignoring cost because unknown), Renaissance(A-), Amarki heavy frigate(A), K'tinga(A), Miranda-A(B), Constitution-B(B-), Turteship(B, perfect except for being so expensive), Klingon Bird-of-Prey(A).

Veterancy: Veterancy is useful in that it raises all stats that are relevant, but ships in this role are the most likely to be destroyed and/or take serious crew losses so using experienced crews here means a high risk of losing them, particularly if the ship design is on the cheap rather than the durable side.

Importance: Absolutely critical, the most important combat role and the one you can do without the least. The main battle is by far the longest phase, and the vanguard determines fleet values for it.
Participates in Skirmish and vanguard phases and also functions as minesweeper when needed. High science critical for passing minefields, high reaction very important for the skirmish phase, hull and especially shields important for surviving hitting mines, as well as skirmish and vanguard phase where combat is also useful. For minefields and skirmish quantity of ships is currently nearly irrelevant, but that could change with future revisions.

Stat profile: S>= 5, D >=5, L + H >= 5, C the higher the better but low priority

Example classes (and how well they fit):
Amarki light frigate(B+), Constellation-A(B-), Centaur-A(C), Science Takaaki(C), Forager(C), Swarmer Mark 2(C).

Veterancy: Veterancy does not raise reaction, but is extremely useful for the minesweeper part of the role and useful for everything else. As ships in this role are relatively unlikely to be destroyed if they successfully pass through the minefield and have adequate defenses, and veterancy improves two seperate layers of defense against being destroyed in a minefield (science and shields + hull) using veteran ships in this role should generally be a good idea.

Importance: If you intend to attack through minefields ships in this role are a must. Dedicated minesweepers that do not take part in the vanguard phase might be possible, but that means fewer ships in the vanguard phase, and skipping out on the skirmish phase does not seem to be possible.
Participates in Skirmish and vanguard phases. High reaction very important for the skirmish phase and the evasion effect of science might be doubled, combat, shields and hull useful for skirmish and vanguard phase.

Stat profile: D >=5, L + H >= 5, C > S

Example classes (and how well they fit):
Amarki light frigate(B-), Stinger(B), Romulan Bird-of-Prey (B, ignoring cost), Constellation-A(C), Centaur-A(C-), Constitution-B(B, if eligible for skirmish line), Jaldun(C, if eligible for skirmish line), Courier Takaaki(D)

Veterancy: Veterancy does not raise reaction, but is useful for everything else and ships in this role are relatively unlikely to be destroyed if they have adequate defenses.

Importance: Not particularly necessary if you have ships that do well in the Skirmisher/Minesweeper role, but having some kind of skirmisher is important.
Takes over scouting (only one ship in a fleet does any scouting rolls) and otherwise acts like a Skirmisher/minesweeper. Science for this role is much more important than any other stat for any role and since it is used in an oppposed roll and there are no diminishing returns or a level that is "good enough". In a large battle (say 20 vs 20) a single extra point of science means about 5 turns where one of your ships gets to shoot instead of the enemy (i. e. net advantage 10 firing opportunities) during the skirmish phase, with knock-on effects for later phases of the battle.

Stat profile: S>= maximum(7, S of skirmisher + 3) // as high as possible, otherwise like skirmisher/minesweeper

Example classes (and how well they fit):
Amarki light frigate(C+, in the context of a Federation fleet), Romulan science ship/Oberth(D), science Takaaki (C-)

Veterancy: Veterancy is extremely useful and the ship is unlikely to be destroyed. A blooded or better scout for all major fleets should be a priority.

Importance: Importance scales with the size of the battle and how well other ships can scout, but even in a moderate sized battle and a skirmisher/minesweeper design with reasonably good science being able to step in a proper main scout with even higher science would be valuable to have.
Importance
Participates in main battle.
Capital ships that take advantage of doctrine techs that make them more likely to fire. Requires very high combat and reasonably good durability.

Stat profile: C >= 7 // as high as possible, L >= 6, H >= 5
Example classes (and how well they fit):
Lorgot(C, apparently not durable enough), Excelsior-A(B), Riala-A(A), Seyek Battleship (A), Arqueniou Leb Nin (B-)

Veterancy: Veterancy is very useful and unlike ships for the vanguard role cheap and replaceable is not a viable strategy for ships in this role anyway.

Importance: Only important with the relevant doctrines techs available, otherwise having no ships filing this role is no big issue and the heavy metal deployment group can be made up of whatever capitals happen to be in the fleet and extra ships designed for the vanguard role.
Usually deployed in the skirmish line, can step in as vanguard.

Should be a good fit for skirmisher and at least a decent fit for vanguard.

Example classes (and how well they fit):
Stinger(B), Constitution-B(B, if eligible for skirmish line), Amarki light frigate(C-)

Veterancy: Helps with fulfilling the requirements for both roles, and as use in the vanguard is supposed to be exceptional and probably largely restricted to critical occasions risking experienced crews is more justified than for ships meant for routine deployment in the vanguard phase.

Importance: Useful to have as vanguard ships are the most likely to become unavailable during a campaign so shifting ships over to rebalance the fleet can be useful. Also useful as a tactical option when outnumbered.
Usually deployed as vanguard, can step in as skirmisher.

Should be a good fit for vanguard and at least a decent fit for skirmisher.

Example classes (and how well they fit):
Amarki heavy frigate (A), Renaissance (A, if eligible for skirmish line), Combat Takaaki(C-), Miranda-A(D), Jaldun(B-)

Veterancy: Same as for the vanguard role.

Importance: Very unlikely to end up being important (scenarios such as a lot of vanguard ships being in repair, skirmishers being drafted for the vanguard and ending up being destroyed so there is an imbalance in the other direction later)
Normally used as skirmisher only, can step in for the main scout if unavailable. Requirements similar to the main scout but with more emphasis on being a good skirmisher.

Importance: No need if a good skirmisher/minesweeper is available or if the main scout design is actually a good skirmisher like it's ideally supposed to be (and you can just bring several of them). Even if neither is the case this is still a marginal role.

The letter grades aren't really based on any detailed analysis and are just supposed to give a rough overview, some of them probably are off a bit, perhaps due to not accounting for cost as much as they should. If someone actually wants to do a detailed analysis, at least for a particular role, go ahead.

I'm going to include the above in the recently threadmarked post, but I think I need a better way to distinguish between vanguard as a phase of battle, vanguard as a deployment group and vanguard as a battle role, similar to skirmish phase, skirmish line and skirmisher.

Takeaways:
  • The Amarki really know what they are doing.
  • No one currently has an adequate main scout.
  • It would be interesting to know what the rules for cruisers being used in the skirmish line is. We know that the Constellation and the Patrol Cruiser were used there in the Battle of Gammon, and it would be really convenient for us if the cutoff was size based and at 1mt. Maybe technology influences it and every time the max scale for frigates surpasses that of a cruiser it becomes eligible for deployment in the skirmish line? Though that would imply that the Betazoids have the 1mt Escort tech.
  • It's weird that frigates are often more suited for the vanguard than for the skirmish line, and cruisers sometimes more suited for the skirmish line than for vanguard. Maybe there are mechanics we don't know about yet that change that (in addition to the apparently doubled evasion chance in the skirmish phase).
  • No wonder the Cardassians are building so many Jalduns.
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The part I especially like about this is that you're thinking in terms of roles.

Vanguard phase's positioning is modified by pure damage output, btw.
 
Nix said:
In the scheme above that would be a class that does well in the roles of skirmisher/minesweeper (as opposed to pure skirmisher for people who don't deal with mines or are happy to sweep mines using their shields/hulls/faces) and flexible skirmisher. I agree that such a class would be useful to have.

With backup scout I meant the following role: Imagine your skirmishers all have S2, and you have a scout with stats like C1 S8 H1 L2 D1, which you want to withdraw before the skirmish phase. If that one scout in your fleet is damaged you have a problem. If you bring two scouts one of them is sitting idle for most battles. It would be useful to have a "backup scout" or two with stats like C3 S6 H2 L4 D5 and which normally acts as a skirmisher. That's a separate thing from wanting your normal skirmishers to have good science anyway, and it's a bit pointless if they already do, or your main scout class is already a good enough skirmisher that it doesn't hurt to bring two. Basically it's a role that doesn't even make sense for us to think about, I was thinking more about the Klingons and Romulans when I came up with it. Perhaps the naming of the roles could be improved though.
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Thus, the Kepler/Flower/New Orleans, where the latter two are the combat frigate and generalist/backup scout, respectively.
 
Briefvoice said:
Since we are currently debating Kepler designs, does this imply anything about what we need to make the Kepler able to fill a suitable Scout role?
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As a Scouting Phase / Minefield Phase / Skirmish ship, the Kepler needs high science for opposed science checks, mid-high science for DC science checks, and to not drag down (preferably drag up) the fleet D score, while having enough shields to survive to withdraw at the end of the Vanguard phase. Cost really isn't an object for this type of ship as numbers don't matter so much.

We would never bring such a ship into the main battle if we can help it, so combat score and overall survivability are somewhat lower on the list.

S - as much as possible - our Kepler designs are already S7 or S8, S6 would be questionable, S8 would definitely be best
D - above average - our Kepler designs tend towards D4 or D5, but D5 would definitely be better in Skirmish
L - above average for a frigate - we'd want L4 or L5 - L3 would be adequate against current opponents but not future ones
C - only 1C would be somewhat inappropriate to bring into a fight, as it does potentially contribute all the way to the end of the Vanguard phase
costs - we're looking at fleet-wide numbers rather than "can we bring multiples to a fight", so costs are not as much an object for combat considerations for this set of roles
 
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2317.Q1 - To Boldly Go...
  • Threadmarks
    • [x][UES] Refit the United Earth's Excelsior
    [x][RIALA] Gain C2 S1 H1 L2
    [x][SR] Invest (-40rp, 1 year project)
    [X][RIGEL] Build Freighter (5pp)
    [X][PRIORITY] Apiata should improve Bulk Cargo shipping in long term

    2317.Q1


    From: Rear Admiral Rachel Ainsworth, Acting Commander, Starfleet Explorer Corps
    To: Admiral Hikaru Sulu, Starfleet, Commanding

    Subject: Explorer Corps Panel of Captains

    Hello Admiral,

    With the launch of the Tarrak and the the completion of the refit of the USS Sarek, we have two Five Year Missions pending launch.

    To be honest, I'm very excited. Although I was never selected for a Five Year Mission, having this chance to propel someone into the greatest adventure Starfleet can offer is a very proud moment. Working with the Panel selectors and Starfleet Personnel Command, we have the following.



    Captain Samyr Kanil
    Human Female, 50
    Current Assignment: Captain, USS T'Mir
    A calm and steady head, with a temperament for long-term missions, and a keen mind for science. +1 S, chance to roll to escape ambushes/Hostile Threat event types.

    Captain Larai Leaniss
    Amarki Female, 39
    Current Assignment: Captain, USS Renaissance
    An officer with a considerable public profile, Captain Leaniss has a long tradition of forging new ground. +1 P, +5pp/yr

    Captain Min-Jee Lee
    Human Female, 44
    Current Assignment: Captain, USS Valiant
    A career spent working with cruisers, yet a penchant for survival in both battle and politics has led her to the panel. +1 H, +1 to Diplomacy Missions

    Captain Jeanette Devereaux
    Human Female, 42
    Current Assignment: Captain, USS Typhoon
    A science division officer at heart, Captain Devereaux is in rare company among officers for protesting being assigned the brand-new Typhoon over the old Suvek. +1 S, +1 to First Contact missions

    Captain Percival Amin
    Human Male, 43
    Current Assignment: Deputy Director, Mission Control Room, Starfleet Operations Command
    A man with a surprising knack for finding himself in dangerous areas, but who learned much from Rear Admiral Uhura. One of the very few fluent non-Vulcan speakers of that language. +1 L, +1 to any internal diplomacy.


    Captain Huth fop Makpol
    Tellarite Male, 50
    Current Assignment: First Officer, Starbase 4 [Tellar]
    A man with experience on a Miranda, an Excelsior, and a Starbase. Gain +1 to Medium DC events.

    Captain Shurg kap Klasch
    Tellarite Female, 48
    Current Assignment: USS Bon Vivant
    Possesses a legendary devotion to her crew, keeping them safe no matter the odds. 50% chance of nullifying a crew casualty, +1 to any event involving medicine.

    Captain Jennifer Zhang
    Human Female, 39
    Current Assignment: Captain, USS Challorn
    A talented veteran of exploration who spent two years far afield with the Honiani. Re-roll any failed diplomacy roll, +1 P, +1 H

    [ ][FYM1] USS Sarek Captain
    [ ][FYM2] USS Tarrak Captain
     
  • Threadmarks
    • OneirosTheWriter said:
    Captain Nash ka'Sharren
    Andorian Female, 32
    Current Assignment: USS Lion, Miranda-class, Klingon Border
    A cowboy, wild, unpredictable, and successful, she makes the council pull their hair out, but gets things done, Crew Rating + 1, -5 Political Will per Year
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    OneirosTheWriter said:
    Captain Larai Leaniss
    Amarki Female, 39
    Current Assignment: Captain, USS Renaissance
    An officer with a considerable public profile, Captain Leaniss has a long tradition of forging new ground. +1 P, +5pp/yr
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    I guess opposites really do attract.
     
    I'd like to give the Tarrack a diplomacy/presence or science bonus captain, because that should help it out of the early days to get to Veteran (although less important than normal since it is blooded).
     
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    Leaniss is a shoe-in. Might as well give her the Sarek, she's at least Vulcanoid.

    [X][FYM1] Captain Larai Leaniss
    [X][FYM2] Captain Samyr Kanil

    AND IN BETAZED THERE IS ONLY FREE HYDROGEN AND THE UNENDING LAUGHTER OF SAMYR KANIL
     
    Larai is a shoo-in. Of the remaining, I'm thinking Samyr or one of the Tellarites- both have nice bonuses. Probably Huth.

    Samyr isn't so decrepit yet that this is her last shot- this isn't the 20th century.
     
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    [X][FYM1] Captain Larai Leaniss
    [X][FYM2] Captain Samyr Kanil

    I can go with this. I think this is probably Kanil's last chance for the EC Panel, she's certainly been on there a long time. The rest of them will keep another few years.
     
    Not sure if we should consider Nash ka'Sharren for a second 5YM again. That political will cost is inconvenient. Then again she's very effective...


    Perhaps we should place her as head of Starfleet Academy?
     
    Night said:
    AND IN BETAZED THERE IS ONLY FREE HYDROGEN AND THE UNENDING LAUGHTER OF SAMYR KANIL
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    My first reaction to this was "eyes in the dark, one moon circling", before I remembered the T'Mir war games. But yes, I think that's not a bad selection.

    [][FYM1] Captain Larai Leaniss
    [][FYM2] Captain Samyr Kanil

    What bonuses does Sarek have that are carrying over?

    Edit: not set on Leaniss, btw. If people think someone else would be better, I'm willing to switch.
    Further edit: changed
     
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    [X][FYM1] Captain Samyr Kanil
    [X][FYM2] Captain Larai Leaniss

    So, in the interest of having two extremely popular captains get an actual ship Andrew not fail because of split votes, I'm doing this. This gives Larai an explorer corp position, which I'm sure the Amarki are gunning for, and she is young enough to possibly get a second 5year mission or move on into the rest of Starfleet and Ben in contention for Admiral in 20years.
     
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