- Location
- Central Standard Time
No.
My personal image is an Intrepid with an external module and locked rennie-style nacelles.
I agree. The rules are not settled yet.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
-
- Tags
- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
My personal image is an Intrepid with an external module and locked rennie-style nacelles.
Nervos Belli
Don't think this means you've won!
- Location
- Murica
Wasn't I the one arguing we should build it last year, when you were saying we were fine waiting. Why couldn't you support that a year ago.
I think you need to recheck the price of Centaur-As. The Kepler is currently in the 100BR, 80SR, O2, E3, T4 range. The Centaur-A meanwhile is 80BR, 70SR, O-1, E-2, T-2. Sure the Centaur-A only needs just over half the crew but with 80% the BR cost and 88% the SR cost you are never going to get even close to a 2:1 ratio.
I agreed it was crucial in the next two years, but that there were too many crucial things to build to build them all.
The plan that won ignored even more things that I thought we needed, but we can cover all of those this year anyway.
Nervos Belli
Don't think this means you've won!
- Location
- Murica
I still think a Shrantet III Starbase is a waste. We're going to want one on Caledonia within the next few years, and the KBZ really doesn't need two Starbases. It's just throwing pp down the drain.
- Location
- Patriarchova
[X][COUNCIL] Plan ALL THE THINGS and KEPLER
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X][COUNCIL] Plan Drop Kepler and Ferasa Shipyard for Indoria Starbase
The current argument that we should build the Kepler now is rushed and flawed. The design rules have not been settled by Oneiros despite SWB's insistence, and until they have been officially settled we should hold to our original plan. If you're going to defer to the ship design wizards, then as one of them I'll say that SWB and Briefvoice are a bit ahead of themselves and we should hold to the original timetable.
The current argument that we should build the Kepler now is rushed and flawed. The design rules have not been settled by Oneiros despite SWB's insistence, and until they have been officially settled we should hold to our original plan. If you're going to defer to the ship design wizards, then as one of them I'll say that SWB and Briefvoice are a bit ahead of themselves and we should hold to the original timetable.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Oh. Sorry.
[looks sheepish]
I think he'll manage.
Flash Forward to Old Soul, New Daughter, Ch. 2:
Leslie's a pretty versatile fellow, who did a lot of things in his youth. But when he settled down to build a (sort of a) career in Shipyard Operations, the talent he's cultivated is as a fixer. He remembers where everything is, how everything's been done in several different iterations, for roughly fifty years. All in great detail, with the strengths, weaknesses, and loopholes carefully catalogued for future emergencies. He bounced back and forth through the seated ranks of Chairfleet in so many different directions, back while they were still trying to find excuses to avoid promoting him, that he has a lot of odd little bits of leverage and paperwork-jujitsu in his repertoire. And he's not afraid to get weird, or to cross divisional boundaries, to get the job done.
Sort of a highly specific subset of Sulu's talent set, specialized for helping out some poor bastard whose ship will not go.
About the only
By the way, Chapter One missed its threadmark. Is it only @OneirosTheWriter who does those?
We have a lot more 'squish' in our resource availability than in our crew availability.
Also, think in terms of large numbers. Five Centaur-As cost 400/350 resources and 5/10/10 crew. Given the crew constraints we can get three Keplers out of that crew pool, costing 300/240 resources and 6/9/12 crew. Four Keplers cost the same resources, roughly (400/320) but much more crew (8/12/16).
In a situation where we build Keplers as fast as we can, resources are likely to pile up (though they may just get fed to building giant Ambassador-sauruses, to be fair). In a situation where we build Centaur-As as fast as we can, crew is likely to pile up. Given that we're more likely to be sitting on a pile of resources but no spare crew than the other way around...
- Location
- somewhere
Survey sensors, possibly stats and/or cost savings (almost certainly something, but in the minimal case it could just be 5br, the rules are in flux so it's impossible to tell right now), sane research plans.
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What about my argument that Shrantet III is a major colony world with a seat on the Council? It's not a homeworld, but it could be a major target in any invasion. I certainly don't think a Starbase there is wasted.
EDIT: It's also at the opposite "end" of the KBZ from Caledonia, meaning that it's better positioned to anchor against barbarian hordes sweeping out from rimwards.
Unless he shared with someone else. Hopefully he'll be able to take care of it next time he drops back in.
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I do appreciate the work you put into research plans. As you point out, though, many different factors can intervene to up-end them. Admiral bonuses, buying new tech teams in the Snakepit, random bonuses to various research form experience during crises, etc. Maintaining a certain flexibility is valuable.
- Location
- Central Standard Time
As another SDB person, I agree.
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
And that will hurt us more between now and the Kepler's replacement than waiting another two years while using the currently available science ships (also looking at outbreak of Cardassian war)?
So I don't think anyone has commented on this:
HAHAHAHAHA! After all the endless debate about pushing them, they got the random roll! Hilarious.
HAHAHAHAHA! After all the endless debate about pushing them, they got the random roll! Hilarious.
I would in fact vote for an entirely different type of ship to be designed if there was a design that looked incredibly satisfactory. For example, if someone was able to produce us a C4 S4 H3+ L6 combat escort with today's technology and under 60 SR, that would be a no-brainer, and under 70 SR would be worthy of argument.
If I was trying to find an in-universe explanation for that "randomness", it's that the FDS slipped some people in during/after that plague handling we did.
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- Location
- Central Standard Time
I think so, Nix thinks so, and Forgothrax thinks so.
In the past 24 hours, there have been 3 pages of discussion on this in the SDB thread.
It's not settled yet.
I don't think it will.
I'm the one who's been running the technology tests and there's little to be gained from two years of research aside from survey sensors. At best we get to play around with the D stat using T2 Nacelles, but even there we don't necessarily reach D5 for designs that save elsewhere or D6 for designs that spend to the max and use the module.
That might change if T1 or T2 endurance parts suddenly appeared and were buildable, but there's been no sign of that.
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
... does that randomness roll apply to the Licori? Random opportunity for which you cannot plan as in-game explanation?
If it were the Licori, then the FDS would have re-established cordial relations with the new Emperor?
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I'm going to be honest, the only thing that would make me really want to delay working on the Kepler pending new technology would be the prospect of crew savings. If that's not in the cards, then the current statline is already good enough, and we can save any attempt to make it even better for the refit.
We've spent fifteen years of game time with the science vessel role utterly minimized, due to how painfully overspecialized and tiny the Oberths were. If we have a good science vessel design on offer, one that incorporates good technology and vastly outperforms everything else we have... are our interests really served by waiting? The vote balance seems to be overwhelmingly in favor of not waiting, which does in fact suggest that a lot of people have changed their minds about the merits of waiting until 2318.
If we already had a satisfactory science vessel in the short term and were just designing a replacement (this is more or less where we are with the Miranda-A), then I'd say waiting makes more sense. But that doesn't seem to be the case here.
As offered, the Keplers have Excelsior-grade event response, on the crew requirements of a cruiser. A cheap cruiser. Could they be better? Yes. But bluntly, we will always be able to say "wait two, or three, or five years and the ship will be better!"
Now, trying to do my usual plan analysis...
@Briefvoice : Plan ALL THE THINGS and KEPLER
[On a side note, *I* liked the Ferasa shipyard and LBZ starbase ideas.
]
@Void Stalker : Plan develop no Kepler
Now, as usual, let's delete all the stuff the plans have in common.
Aside from disagreeing about where to put the research colonies, which is basically irrelevant and I'm dropping it... Void Stalker pushes the Obar while Briefvoice pushes the Yan-Ros.
Obviously, Briefvoice is pushing for the Kepler.
Void Stalker's plan seems to still contain the shipyard at Ferasa while Briefvoice's doesn't, which makes me wonder what Briefvoice is doing with the extra 17 political will, unless I've made an error somewhere.
We've spent fifteen years of game time with the science vessel role utterly minimized, due to how painfully overspecialized and tiny the Oberths were. If we have a good science vessel design on offer, one that incorporates good technology and vastly outperforms everything else we have... are our interests really served by waiting? The vote balance seems to be overwhelmingly in favor of not waiting, which does in fact suggest that a lot of people have changed their minds about the merits of waiting until 2318.
If we already had a satisfactory science vessel in the short term and were just designing a replacement (this is more or less where we are with the Miranda-A), then I'd say waiting makes more sense. But that doesn't seem to be the case here.
As offered, the Keplers have Excelsior-grade event response, on the crew requirements of a cruiser. A cheap cruiser. Could they be better? Yes. But bluntly, we will always be able to say "wait two, or three, or five years and the ship will be better!"
Now, trying to do my usual plan analysis...
@Briefvoice : Plan ALL THE THINGS and KEPLER
[On a side note, *I* liked the Ferasa shipyard and LBZ starbase ideas.
]Request new Starbase I [KBZ – Shrantet III] 25pp for KBZ
Request new Starbase I [Indoria] 27pp
Request Mining Colony at Kohl II, 16pp, 25 (30) br & 25 (35) sr /yr, 4 turns
Request Research Colony at Acacia V, 7pp 5 (7) rp/yr, 4 turns
Request Mining Colony at Piara V, 8pp, 25 (30) br/yr, 4 turns
Request Allocation for an Excelsior's resources, one-off-infusion of an Excelsior's cost, 40pp
Request Academy Development, 40pp (Gain +.5 Officers/Enlisted/Techs throughput)
Request Start of Science Frigate project, receiving one-off boost of Research Points and go-ahead for some projects, 10pp
Request new Tech Team to be added to your Ship Design Bureau, [Weapons and Offensive Doctrine] - 20pp
Request new Tech Team to be added to your Ship Design Bureau, [Starbase and Defensive Doctrine] - 20pp
Sponsor efforts to create Heavy Industrial park to reduce construction times by 25% in that system when making either a parallel or serial build, provides Heavy Industry options pre-SoE, 115pp (Mars in Sol System)
Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Ashidi]
Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [The Tauni]
Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Yan-Ros]
Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Hishmeri Septs]
Acquire additional resources for Starfleet Intelligence Operations, 20pp (Will improve ops teams next time they are required)
Request new Starbase I [Indoria] 27pp
Request Mining Colony at Kohl II, 16pp, 25 (30) br & 25 (35) sr /yr, 4 turns
Request Research Colony at Acacia V, 7pp 5 (7) rp/yr, 4 turns
Request Mining Colony at Piara V, 8pp, 25 (30) br/yr, 4 turns
Request Allocation for an Excelsior's resources, one-off-infusion of an Excelsior's cost, 40pp
Request Academy Development, 40pp (Gain +.5 Officers/Enlisted/Techs throughput)
Request Start of Science Frigate project, receiving one-off boost of Research Points and go-ahead for some projects, 10pp
Request new Tech Team to be added to your Ship Design Bureau, [Weapons and Offensive Doctrine] - 20pp
Request new Tech Team to be added to your Ship Design Bureau, [Starbase and Defensive Doctrine] - 20pp
Sponsor efforts to create Heavy Industrial park to reduce construction times by 25% in that system when making either a parallel or serial build, provides Heavy Industry options pre-SoE, 115pp (Mars in Sol System)
Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Ashidi]
Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [The Tauni]
Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Yan-Ros]
Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Hishmeri Septs]
Acquire additional resources for Starfleet Intelligence Operations, 20pp (Will improve ops teams next time they are required)
@Void Stalker : Plan develop no Kepler
Request new Starbase I [KBZ – Shrantet III] 25pp for KBZ
Request new Starbase I [indoria] 27pp for Indoria
Request Mining Colony at Kohl II, 16pp, +25 / +25 br/sr per year, 4 turns
Request Research Colony at Cronulla VI, 7pp 5 (7) rp/yr, 4 turns
Request Mining Colony at Piara V, 8pp, 25 (35) br/yr, 4 turns
Request Allocation for an Excelsior's resources, one-off-infusion of an Excelsior's cost, 40pp
Request Academy Development, 40pp (Gain +.5 Officers/Enlisted/Techs throughput)
Request new Tech Team to be added to your Ship Design Bureau, {Weapons and Offensive Doctrine] - 20pp
Request new Tech Team to be added to your Ship Design Bureau, {Starbase and Defensive Doctrine] - 20pp
Sponsor efforts to create Heavy Industrial park to reduce construction times by 25% in that system when making either a parallel or serial build, provides Heavy Industry options pre-SoE, 115pp (Mars in Sol System)
Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Ashidi]
Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [The Tauni]
Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Obar]
Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Hishmeri Septs]
Acquire additional resources for Starfleet Intelligence Operations, 20pp (Will improve ops teams next time they are required)
Request new Shipyard at Ferasa, 22pp, (12 turns, 1 3mt Berth)
Request new Starbase I [indoria] 27pp for Indoria
Request Mining Colony at Kohl II, 16pp, +25 / +25 br/sr per year, 4 turns
Request Research Colony at Cronulla VI, 7pp 5 (7) rp/yr, 4 turns
Request Mining Colony at Piara V, 8pp, 25 (35) br/yr, 4 turns
Request Allocation for an Excelsior's resources, one-off-infusion of an Excelsior's cost, 40pp
Request Academy Development, 40pp (Gain +.5 Officers/Enlisted/Techs throughput)
Request new Tech Team to be added to your Ship Design Bureau, {Weapons and Offensive Doctrine] - 20pp
Request new Tech Team to be added to your Ship Design Bureau, {Starbase and Defensive Doctrine] - 20pp
Sponsor efforts to create Heavy Industrial park to reduce construction times by 25% in that system when making either a parallel or serial build, provides Heavy Industry options pre-SoE, 115pp (Mars in Sol System)
Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Ashidi]
Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [The Tauni]
Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Obar]
Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Hishmeri Septs]
Acquire additional resources for Starfleet Intelligence Operations, 20pp (Will improve ops teams next time they are required)
Request new Shipyard at Ferasa, 22pp, (12 turns, 1 3mt Berth)
Now, as usual, let's delete all the stuff the plans have in common.
Aside from disagreeing about where to put the research colonies, which is basically irrelevant and I'm dropping it... Void Stalker pushes the Obar while Briefvoice pushes the Yan-Ros.
Obviously, Briefvoice is pushing for the Kepler.
Void Stalker's plan seems to still contain the shipyard at Ferasa while Briefvoice's doesn't, which makes me wonder what Briefvoice is doing with the extra 17 political will, unless I've made an error somewhere.
Request Start of Science Frigate project, receiving one-off boost of Research Points and go-ahead for some projects, 10pp
Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One
affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Yan-Ros]
Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One
affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Yan-Ros]
Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Obar]
Request new Shipyard at Ferasa, 22pp, (12 turns, 1 3mt Berth)
Request new Shipyard at Ferasa, 22pp, (12 turns, 1 3mt Berth)
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
We once discussed what it looks like (my personal opinion was a blockier version of the Oracle-class from STO), but no, we've never properly designed a Kepler by appearance. We may have to wait for Lelia or Gravitas to design one.
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