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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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JesseJ said:
The commerce raiding will also buy us some time to finish repairs from the damage we know is coming to TF1 and TF3. It isn't going to be a long term objective. It's just long enough to let us finish repairs and mass for attacking Morshadd. That plus it's very likely that Morshadd is also going to have at least one superweapon of some sort that we'll have to send SI in to deal with, assuming they don't all die trying to deal with the Gammon one.
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Those are questions we should properly resolve just by setting the timetable: how long before we expect them to press the attack?

Nothing about saying "next stop Morshadd" means that Eaton is going to immediately mass all her fleets and attack Morshadd blindly the minute the fighting around Gammon and Ixira is done, without stopping to receive reinforcements or repairs.

Briefvoice said:
The point of doing commerce raiding is to force their fleet to come out and face us without the benefit of fixed defenses to back them up. If we can damage the fleet enough, their ability to defend the homeworld will be much weaker.

If we make the next priority Morshadd Orbit, then we can expect to face the entire remaining Arcadian fleet there, and it will be a very bloody victory... or an even bloodier defeat.
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I understand the logic, but I'm worried that the Licori nobility will just hole up in Morshadd and try to force us to come to them. The system is more or less self-sufficient, after all, and the noble houses are as I recall actually headquartered there, not on the "major worlds" they dominate. If inflicting pain on the noble houses isn't actually enough to end the war, then I'm not sure we can force a conclusion except at Morshadd.

The only people we can hurt with commerce raiding after we conquer Ixira and Gammon and other such holdings would be the houses we're trying NOT to cheese off: Tartresis and Bene, because they're the only ones left who control any planets with any commerce left to raid.
 
Thebigpieman said:
Didn't TOS Enterprise use it's phaser to stun an entire city block once?
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Yes, though we never saw that done again ever as far as I can recall, sadly.

ThoughtMaster said:
Oh dear, people seem to think that this instillation is akin to the Death Star, but due to the form it takes, and the research that we know Mentants have been working on, it sounds to me that we are dealing with Starkiller Base from episode VII.
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No, we're dealing with a big-ass cannon on a moon. Nobody in this setting has the capacity to build a mobile moon or a weapon that can blow up stars over interstellar distances; the star-endangering weapons we've seen hints of so far are of the form "a bomb you can fly up to the star and drop in," not "point and click from across the galaxy."

However, the base may in some sense resemble the facility we saw on Starkiller Base in Episode VII, which was basically just a big building on a planet for all practical purposes.
 
Night said:
The Licori only have a couple of planets that are self-sufficent, and you're missing a key point about invading: we have transporters. If our goal is merely to force a surrender we can take apart the enemy a squad at a time if they try to maintain a presence throughout populated areas, leave them in a POW camp of their own making if they fort up (such a fort implies shields to resist being killed in an orbital strike, and if they try to come out that is what we will deliver), or simply dismantle the planetary infrastructure one power conduit at a time around them, beaming in and out before we can be engaged. Our initiative and choice of battlefield and enemy become effectively absolute.
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If it were that easy we wouldn't have had to attempt to storm Celos in an absolutely nasty urban fight during the syndicate crisis. Teleporting is clearly not as powerful as you make it out to be nor is it impossible to counteract it. And I think modern experiences with urban fighting show just how difficult city fighting is even if you hold the technological edge as well as how difficult for examples sieges of cities (non of which are self sufficient in most cases) often turn out to be.

+ blockading a planet/colony brings the same problems that bombarding it has. While it may be a feasible military strategy I simply don't see it mesh well with the majority of the Federation public. Starving a planet or colony into submission is in my opinion political suicide at this point in time.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
I understand the logic, but I'm worried that the Licori nobility will just hole up in Morshadd and try to force us to come to them. The system is more or less self-sufficient, after all, and the noble houses are as I recall actually headquartered there, not on the "major worlds" they dominate. If inflicting pain on the noble houses isn't actually enough to end the war, then I'm not sure we can force a conclusion except at Morshadd.

The only people we can hurt with commerce raiding after we conquer Ixira and Gammon and other such holdings would be the houses we're trying NOT to cheese off: Tartresis and Bene, because they're the only ones left who control any planets with any commerce left to raid.
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What commerce raiding does is build the pressure from the noble houses to either come out and face us or negotiate a peace. The Emperor may want to "just hole up" but the Major Houses will most definitely not want to do so, cut off from their worlds. Sticking put when your enemy keeps poking at you is often the wisest military strategy and the most difficult politically. As much as the Emperor may know that the best strategy is to hold up in Morshadd and wait for the Federation to get tired, the longer it goes on the harder a time he'll have justifying that. Eventually he'll have to either face us, or face an attempted coup.

I know people want this to be a fast war, but remember what Eaton said? Quick, Cheap (as in fewer ships lost), or Lasting Peace... pick two? I'd rather pick cheap and lasting peace and manage the political fall-out from a longer war. I'm not willing to pay the cost in all the destroyed ships we'd get from a direct assault on Morshadd (at least, a direct assault made before chewing up their fleet). I'd rather the war take an extra six months if that's what it takes.

I believe "Hunt all trade ships" will get us where we need to be eventually. It just takes longer.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Those are questions we should properly resolve just by setting the timetable: how long before we expect them to press the attack?

Nothing about saying "next stop Morshadd" means that Eaton is going to immediately mass all her fleets and attack Morshadd blindly the minute the fighting around Gammon and Ixira is done, without stopping to receive reinforcements or repairs.

I understand the logic, but I'm worried that the Licori nobility will just hole up in Morshadd and try to force us to come to them. The system is more or less self-sufficient, after all, and the noble houses are as I recall actually headquartered there, not on the "major worlds" they dominate. If inflicting pain on the noble houses isn't actually enough to end the war, then I'm not sure we can force a conclusion except at Morshadd.

The only people we can hurt with commerce raiding after we conquer Ixira and Gammon and other such holdings would be the houses we're trying NOT to cheese off: Tartresis and Bene, because they're the only ones left who control any planets with any commerce left to raid.
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The houses aren't going to sit back and hole up with the massive loss of face that being cut from their colonies involves. If the Emperor forces that then they'll agitate and possibly even coup him.

Furthermore:
OneirosTheWriter said:
Starfleet Tactical:
- Our understanding of the Arcadian Empire is that the Houses Major and Minor each hold considerable autonomy within the Framework of the Empire, even though the Emperor could take any single house to task and destroy them. The Emperor cannot, however, counterbalance all the noble houses.

- Of the noble houses, there are Four Houses Major: the brutal Kortennon of Gammon, the noble Tartresis of Calamar, the enigmatic Ixaria of Ixira, and the crafty Bene of Gesseria. Of these, Ixaria first and Bene second are the two Houses most widely known for embracing production of the Mentat, though they all do to at least some extent. The Tartresis are probably the House we would be most amenable to claiming the throne from the Imperial House.

- We have recommended an approach that destroys the infrastructure as opposed to a direct force-on-force confrontation in order to avoid "poisoning the well" of post-bellum relations, as well as to avoid situations where potential "superweapons" may inflict disproportionate losses on Starfleet. Despite this, we do recognise that a policy of go-slow may be politically untenable, and may even heighten the danger from rogue mentats.

- If a rapid assault approach is desired, disrupting the major colony worlds is the key approach. Direct assaults on the Morshadd systems would be seen on approach and asymmetric counter-measures could prove highly destructive.
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Starfleet Tactical specifically recommended against attempting Morshadd Orbit even if we wanted to try a rapid approach that involves taking orbitals. We'd be better off continuing the campaign against other houses, even despite the perceived diplomatic issues. The Tartresis even said that we should fight them directly if we wanted to impress them.

Note that the Acadians already did send out their explorers to counter our ships scouting and probing their defenses, so we do have a good chance of drawing out their fleet through a raiding strategy, especially if we can get the Liao to shut down trade. We already have successfully drawn out fleet elements this way.
 
After we strike Gammon in a few months we will still have a lot of time to work with, relatively speaking. I don't see a clear need to go right for Morshadd, especially given how mines have been the #1 threat to our ships so far and Morshadd is likely to have more mines than people in its orbit. I'd rather not try to crack that nut until we are sure the shipping war won't work.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by AlphaDelta on Apr 25, 2017 at 5:19 PM, finished with 44349 posts and 23 votes.
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MTB said:
The more suffering we cause the harder to overcome the resentments afterwards.
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True of the Bene, less of the Tartesis. A thorough victory will make them happier with us as long as we are clean about it.

Also if they hole up in Morshadd than there's no particular reason not to take their merchies as prizes instead of burning them, or to go around offering to feed people who surrender now that they're unable to get other food. If they come out to try to stop us on either front, then mission accomplished: we destroy their exposed fleet elements.
 
What I am getting from all this is that we need a decent anti-mine doctrine before we can take the war to the orbitals without risking excessive losses.

IIRC we have one doctrine resource working on this, but I have no idea how much difference his work will do and whether there are more steps in the tech-chain.
 
Actually, since nobody else is proposing a selective strategy, I will.

[X][IXIRA] Order Task Force 1 to join the attack
[X][GAMMON] Two Months
[X][CALAMAR] Cut off Calamar
[X][TARGET] Hunt the ships of those most likely to resist getting rid of mentats. Warn off those that are likely supporters, and shoot to disable. In all cases, attempt to take trade ships as prizes.
[X][TURTLE] Suggest raising their mobilisation level

[X][ENG] Place defensive minefields in Kappa Tau (Sets minefield of Low Density, Low Waves, High Strength, Medium Stealth)
[X][ENG2] Commence outpost build at Kappa Tau (3 Months - apprx)
[X][IND] Brute force repairs (1.5x penalty to cost, 4x speed increase) Yagad-Tich
[X][IND2] Brute force repairs for USS Hood (1.5x penalty to cost, 4x speed increase)

EDIT:

@Night: Good idea. Updated.
 
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Night said:
True of the Bene, less of the Tartesis. A thorough victory will make them happier with us as long as we are clean about it.

Also if they hole up in Morshadd than there's no particular reason not to take their merchies as prizes instead of burning them, or to go around offering to feed people who surrender now that they're unable to get other food. If they come out to try to stop us on either front, then mission accomplished: we destroy their exposed fleet elements.
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We aren't going to be hitting food shipments in space, pretty much no matter what. That makes no sense. Modern spacefaring powers don't ship around foodstuffs unless something has gone direly wrong.

Self-sufficient refers to industry and more unique resources.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
We aren't going to be hitting food shipments in space, pretty much no matter what. That makes no sense. Modern spacefaring powers don't ship around foodstuffs unless something has gone direly wrong.

Self-sufficient refers to industry and more unique resources.
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Still, shiploads of Tritanium won't be terrible. Or whatever they ship around.

Choosing our targets allow us to play divide and conquer. For instance, Bene might be a lot more reluctant to ship minerals to Kortennon or Morshadd if they know that their ships will be safe in their own system, and they'll be able to work out a better deal at the end of the war.
 
Iron Wolf said:
After we strike Gammon in a few months we will still have a lot of time to work with, relatively speaking. I don't see a clear need to go right for Morshadd, especially given how mines have been the #1 threat to our ships so far and Morshadd is likely to have more mines than people in its orbit. I'd rather not try to crack that nut until we are sure the shipping war won't work.
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The USS Zutara and USS Harmony between them ought to be able to clear out the mess around Morshadd by themselves. Unfortunately sending them in would be exactly the sort of barbaric practice that would draw a raised eyebrow from the Q continuum.
 
AlphaDelta said:
Still, shiploads of Tritanium won't be terrible. Or whatever they ship around.

Choosing our targets allow us to play divide and conquer. For instance, Bene might be a lot more reluctant to ship minerals to Kortennon or Morshadd if they know that their ships will be safe in their own system, and they'll be able to work out a better deal at the end of the war.
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I don't really feel a need to micromanage it. We do need to scare off the Bene and Tartresis from running commerce ships around anyway, so I don't feel it's bad if they feel a bit of a crunch when some of their ships are intercepted.


On a completely unrelated note, now that SB12 is finished and we're starting a Kappa Tau outpost, perhaps the runabout squadron that was at Betazed should be moved once Kappa Tau is finished. That or purchase another squadron.

Additionally, looking at our options for more assets, I don't particularly see anything particularly urgent to blow war support on. Red Squad at 4 cost, sure. 8-cost HI is...okay I guess, I'm not really too keen on it but at least it's useful. The -10 to the eroding Rigel war support for more engineers isn't very appealing.

What I do like at this point is purchasing more ships, particularly cruisers for 2 points. A scattering of as many as 16 points of frigates and cruisers would be a massive boon to our task forces, would replace upcoming potential losses, and would draw from member world support broadly rather than specifically. That said, our member fleets are actually fairly bare, most of what we'd get would be more Miranda-As or Centaur-As, maybe one Connie-B? Rigel may be able to send us one or two turtleships, and we could mitigate that by returning the one under repair once it's fixed.

Iron Wolf said:
I'm still bemused we're having the Rigellians fix the Fed ship and Les Nordaméricanos to fix the Rigellian ship basically out of inertia. :p
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Eh, I'll swap. No longer really in danger of losing the vote, just of accidentally doubling up on the Yagad-Tich but I'm sure Oneiros will resolve that sensibly. Will also swap to conquer Calamar as I think it is in fact the better diplomatic option than ignoring the people who said they wanted to fight us.


[X][IXIRA] Order Task Force 1 to join the attack
[X][GAMMON] Two Months
[X][CALAMAR] Conquer Calamar
[X][TARGET] Hunt all trade ships
[X][TURTLE] Suggest raising their mobilisation level

[X][ENG] Place defensive minefields in Kappa Tau (Sets minefield of Low Density, Low Waves, High Strength, Medium Stealth)
[X][ENG2] Commence outpost build at Kappa Tau (3 Months - apprx)
[X][IND] Brute force repairs for USS Hood (1.5x penalty to cost, 4x speed increase)
[X][IND2] Brute force repairs (1.5x penalty to cost, 4x speed increase) Yagad-Tich


@OneirosTheWriter is the Svai going to get a simultaneous refit/repair? Or could we get that choice offered?
 
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jacobk said:
The USS Zutara and USS Harmony between them ought to be able to clear out the mess around Morshadd by themselves. Unfortunately sending them in would be exactly the sort of barbaric practice that would draw a raised eyebrow from the Q continuum.
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Dude the Federation is bound by treaty never to let those ships leave their berths unless they have the unanimous and concurrent approval by the Romulan Senate and the Klingon High Council.
 
cast2007 said:
Dude the Federation is bound by treaty never to let those ships leave their berths unless they have the unanimous and concurrent approval by the Romulan Senate and the Klingon High Council.
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Project Ares was actually the code name for the reactivation of those ships and is the real reason Rogers was removed. The Council was so horrified they made up a cover story about him making warships instead.
Adhoc vote count started by Iron Wolf on Apr 26, 2017 at 10:16 AM, finished with 44375 posts and 24 votes.
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SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
Self-sufficient refers to industry and more unique resources.
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I doubt that. It's more likely they need a continuous supply of something they don't make; water filter parts or atmosphere scrubbers or vaccine booster shots for the deadly native Bioflu (like the Biophage but for your mucus) after Mentat Bloched's experiments three years ago. Without it the colony is not in immediate danger, but could be in trouble later.

It would fit with the web of power relationships we see to set things up this way.
 
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