Miranda-A and Centaur-A.

The Centaur-A is not less than 60 sr.

The problem is their ships suck. Make it a Connie-B instead of an Excelsior.

My reasoning is to have one high-science combat ship (the Excelsior) and one low-science combat ship (the Miranda) and see what happens. It's not supposed to be an even fight. I'm fine with the Federation forces inevitably winning. I just want to see what kind of stunts the Gaeni ships pull on their way down and how that differs with the drastically different science scores of the two Federation ships.
 
[X] [ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]

@SynchronizedWritersBlock doesn't think that Excelsior+Miranda vs. Tech-Frigate+Tech-Cruiser would be a fair enough fight for us to learn much. Here. How's this for a matchup?

[][WG] A 2v2 with any Ships, including member world ships - Gaeni Tech-Frigate and Tech-Cruiser versus a Constitution-B [Lexington] and a Centaur-A [Winterwind] with the explicit purpose of learning to counter a Tech-Ship doctrine.

That said, Briefvoice does have a point that this is more about learning how to counter Weird Science tricks than it is about giving the opponent an even chance.
 
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Another interesting exercise would be a mentat hunt wargame. 4 patrol ships vs a "mentat" in an Oberth and a second Oberth decoy they aren't told about before the game.

Would cost pp but I'd love to read it.
 
The Centaur-A is not less than 60 sr.



My reasoning is to have one high-science combat ship (the Excelsior) and one low-science combat ship (the Miranda) and see what happens. It's not supposed to be an even fight. I'm fine with the Federation forces inevitably winning. I just want to see what kind of stunts the Gaeni ships pull on their way down and how that differs with the drastically different science scores of the two Federation ships.
And I suggest a Connie because we're most worried about our middling science ships. They're likely to be stuck as group flagships yet not have the science facilities to counter bullshit. We don't learn anything with an Excelsior, they've been countering superscience for decades.
 
[X][ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]
[X][WG] A 2v2 with any Ships, including member world ships - Gaeni Tech-Frigate and Tech-Cruiser versus a Constitution-B [Lexington] and a Centaur-A [Winterwind] with the explicit purpose of learning to counter a Tech-Ship doctrine.
 
Actually they may be thinking the opposite, because the Cardassian mindset is the archetypical Hard Men Making Hard Decisions culture. They may be utterly convinced that a long war will cause some of the Federation member races to 'flake off' rather than risk their sons and daughters fighting a long way from home against an enemy that poses no urgent, realistic threat to them. They may be further convinced that we'll never get political support for an offensive that would cut deep enough into Cardassian space to do more than mildly inconvenience their war effort.

They may even be right.

While the odds of Starfleet or the Federation going land war: Cardassia is very remote (we really seem to lack any form of standing forces under our direct control, we'd depend on member states for that) we really don't need to invade to win, just trash their orbital infrastructure and play whack-a-mole with their shipping. given the Cardassian known (or presumed) bottlenecks, if we defeat them, or at least neutralize most of their fleet, they are done.
would take time, perhaps, for the body to stop twitching and the cost in lives could be on the bad side (depending how in need of BR/SR imports are needed to keep their economy going)
it is all highly hypothetical, and I'd rather avoid a protracted and expensive war, but we might want to look into some Commerce raiding doctrines, if any are available, since they cold allow us to divest their industrial core from sufficient resources to be useful.


I'd rather have the latter problem than a war. As to the former problem, the war in the Gabriel Expanse is probably the best way to accomplish the goal. While the Sydraxians' performance indicates that they're something of a junior varsity opponent, the trouncing Admiral Ainsworth gave them tends to suggest to the Cardassians that it's not just the Explorer Corps that can put up a tough fight.

Well, it highly depends on how the Obsidian Order reads on those events and what they pass on to the military...
I say this because we don't know and can't know that sort of thing and hoping our adversaries will be as smart and unbiased as we want them to be. And this is not me talking shit about their intellect or impartial thought, just that while we should hope that... we should also keep in mind they might not.

Bajor in particular is explicitly listed in canon as mineral-rich and we pretty much know the Cardassians will squeeze the place. Some of the other Cardassian clients not so much... but they have a straight-up peaceful trading relationship with the Dylaarians and they can make truly improbable amounts of wealth by gaming the Dylaarian approach to IP rights. Plus I'm pretty sure the Dylaarians themselves are free to expand themselves.

Ah, but is it rich in Bulk or Special? and at which ratio? if they start strip-mining the place, that is not going to sit well on the Bajorans. Canonically, Bajor was a resource sink for cardassia, a costly occupation.

While we certainly can't intervene directly, and the Bajorans have yet to feel the boot long enough, but perhaps we could have some of our member states, try to get a covert approach to Bajor? I mean, in canon Bajor was Cardassia's Afganistan... and as ill advised it was all in retrospect irl, we might want to help the bajorans help themselves?
I mean, would depend on the wording of Celos, but we had some unofficial leeway about that, iirc...

So, at the very least we should try keeping some eyes on Bajor.

The Goshawnar are at the moment a military reserve that they don't seem to have a problem with using as attack dogs; they could very easily call them up into the Gabriel Expanse and promise them a share as a way of offsetting the breakdown of the Sydraxians and cancelling out the fast attack craft advantage of the Apiata.

The Konen are the really tricky point, because everything about their background suggests that they would rebel if they could get away with it. Plus, they possess a power the Cardassians cannot duplicate or take away from them, and which the Cardassians must fear even if they happen to have unusual resistance to telepathy.

Yeah. I'd actually be interested to get diplomatic posture reports on the Yrillians and/or Dawiar, because those are the two species we're most likely to be able to "flip." We also very much need to push diplomacy on the new species we just discovered, both to prevent the Cardassians from recruiting them and to keep pushing out our buffer zone against the Goshawnar and Konen.

Given the way Konen crews acted in the last log post... they might be less than enthusiast about Cardassia, yeah, they should be contacted circumspectly. and Denying the Cardassian military of them would be a boon.
I agree with your regarding Yrillians and the Dawair.
Actually, just thought of something, we should try to foucs our EC around the Cardassian Territories, we should try to check their expansion potential and contest it, at the very least, by the release of propaganda to any species within those areas.
Course, only the most veteran EC crews should be allotted to the furthest areas, for obvious reasons


Or "oh my god, it's so big" for longhand.

Can we add "We break for nobody" stickers on the rear of the hulls?

I think we would call a Borg Cube a "Pride of Kadesh-class ship" right now.

And by the way @OneirosTheWriter I kept going back through the logs to remember what they called their Mothership, and as far as I can see we haven't heard anything from the Stargazer since 2313.Q4M3... nearly a year ago!

Should we be worried?

PoK Class vessels? sounds reasonable to me.

I would argue that the Excelsior-A IS going to be our 'light explorer' in the near future, if you use the Ambassador as the baseline. Conversely, when the stock Excelsior was the baseline, the "light explorer" design is/was the Constitution-B and its evolved/reimagined form the Renaissance.

About this, will we need to do anything to reclassify Excelsiors as Explorer, Light once our new Explorer, Capital (Ambassador Class) starts to come on line? if so, how will we need to do this?
 
And I suggest a Connie because we're most worried about our middling science ships. They're likely to be stuck as group flagships yet not have the science facilities to counter bullshit. We don't learn anything with an Excelsior, they've been countering superscience for decades.

We only have two Constitution-Bs in the entire Licori taskforce.

But if people want to go with a Connie-B, I'd at least want to still make the second ship a Miranda and not a Centaur-A. I want to see how badly tech ship doctrine hurts with really bad science scores.
 
@Joshrand1982 ...

1) You need to be specific. WHAT fleet battle involving WHAT ships?
2) Can you explain why we urgently need a fighting frigate better than the Miranda-A? Right now, the ship design people are telling us that the Miranda-A is literally the best fighting ship they can build, give or take a little.

And I suggest a Connie because we're most worried about our middling science ships. They're likely to be stuck as group flagships yet not have the science facilities to counter bullshit. We don't learn anything with an Excelsior, they've been countering superscience for decades.
That's a good point; we're partly learning here how to fight an opponent with better Science stats than us, something very foreign to our experience because we usually roll up in Science 3 or 5 ships that overmatch almost everyone else.

Not many of the ships we're sending up against the Licori actually have Science below 3, but a LOT of the ships we're sending have Science of ONLY 3.
 
[X] [WG] A Fleet Battle (Cost 2pp/Explorer, 1pp/Cruiser, 1pp/2 Escorts)

I will say it bluntly we need the experience of fleet battles. so we need to have one.

You actually have to design the fleet battle if you want to vote for it. State which Explorers, which Cruisers, and which Frigates would be participating on either side. Just the vote you make above won't do anything.
 
[X] [ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]
[X][WG] A 2v2 with any Ships, including member world ships - Gaeni Tech-Frigate and Tech-Cruiser versus an Excelsior [Excelsior] and a Miranda [Svai] with the explicit purpose of learning to counter a Tech-Ship doctrine.
 
[X] [ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]

We can't afford to keep changing around roles. There's some room for improvement here, but I think it's something that can really wait until the Ambassador is rolled out and the Excelsiors can be rolled back into purely combat roles.

[X][WG] A 2v2 with any Ships, including member world ships - Gaeni Tech-Frigate and Tech-Cruiser versus an Excelsior [Excelsior] and a Miranda [Svai] with the explicit purpose of learning to counter a Tech-Ship doctrine.

I'll stick with this at the moment. I feel we should consider @SynchronizedWritersBlock 's mentat hunt, however.
 
[X] [ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]
[X][WG] A 2v2 with any Ships, including member world ships - Gaeni Tech-Frigate and Tech-Cruiser versus an Excelsior [Excelsior] and a Miranda [Svai] with the explicit purpose of learning to counter a Tech-Ship doctrine.
 
Right now, the ship design people are telling us that the Miranda-A is literally the best fighting ship they can build, give or take a little.
Technically, we can give you something with the same C and a bit more tanky... but the price just kinda skyrockets rather easily. And this before the recent nerfing that kiiiinda made recreating the canon statlines a bit impossible.
 
While the odds of Starfleet or the Federation going land war: Cardassia is very remote (we really seem to lack any form of standing forces under our direct control, we'd depend on member states for that) we really don't need to invade to win, just trash their orbital infrastructure and play whack-a-mole with their shipping. given the Cardassian known (or presumed) bottlenecks, if we defeat them, or at least neutralize most of their fleet, they are done.
The thing is, to neutralize most of their fleet we'll have to cut well into their space. Even if we don't physically occupy planets we have to occupy space. We'd have to destroy or capture multiple layers of outpost and starbase defense networks, blow up a lot of ships. And bear in mind that due to the way repairs work we will, on average, have to fight and overcome each individual enemy ship twice or even more times to finally destroy it.

The Cardassians may reasonably hope that even if they lost a series of major battles on the borders, the political support just wouldn't be there for the Federation to keep fighting the war all the way up to the orbitals of Cardassia Prime and make demands of the Union government at torpedopoint. And that they could probably offer any peace treaty on terms even slightly more favorable than "status quo ante bellum" and expect much of the Federation government to want to accept. In which case they might, say, lose Bajor and their mining colonies in the Gabriel Expanse, but they wouldn't be worried about getting destroyed as a functioning government.

Basically, from the point of view of the Cardassians, the strong pacifist faction within the Federation acts as a 'hedge' against the risks normally associated with fighting a war.

Normally in war, if you win you can theoretically win everything, but if you lose you can theoretically lose everything. This makes war very undesirable if the odds are even slightly against you. And even if the odds are for you, you may be a lot more worried about "lose all" than you are eager over "gain all."

But against the Federation, the Council's inclination to accept minor concessions in exchange for peace will tend to reduce the amount the Cardassians can "lose," because they can give up a little in order to end the war early. As a result, they may reason that a moderate chance of gaining a large amount is better than an equal (or even slightly greater) risk of losing only a small amount.

Well, it highly depends on how the Obsidian Order reads on those events and what they pass on to the military...
I say this because we don't know and can't know that sort of thing and hoping our adversaries will be as smart and unbiased as we want them to be. And this is not me talking shit about their intellect or impartial thought, just that while we should hope that... we should also keep in mind they might not.
To be fair, fascist governments have a long history of underestimating opponents and picking unnecessary fights that they shouldn't have sought out; read Eco's essay on "the eternal fascist" for more on that subject.

Ah, but is it rich in Bulk or Special? and at which ratio? if they start strip-mining the place, that is not going to sit well on the Bajorans. Canonically, Bajor was a resource sink for cardassia, a costly occupation.
Yes, but it only became one AFTER the Cardassians started brutally extracting large amounts of resources from the planets. They did a lot of strip-mining and toxic industry there, for instance. Remember that the Occupation lasted for roughly fifty years in canon.

While we certainly can't intervene directly, and the Bajorans have yet to feel the boot long enough, but perhaps we could have some of our member states, try to get a covert approach to Bajor? I mean, in canon Bajor was Cardassia's Afganistan... and as ill advised it was all in retrospect irl, we might want to help the bajorans help themselves?
I mean, would depend on the wording of Celos, but we had some unofficial leeway about that, iirc...

So, at the very least we should try keeping some eyes on Bajor.
Some intelligence regarding the situation on Bajor would be helpful. We explicitly promise not to disrupt the status of Bajor, but that promise is predicated on the promises the Cardassians made, and they may not intend to keep those. Also, we have reason to think the Bajoran Occupation got worse over time; it may honestly not be that bad right now, with a genuine functional Bajoran government that has considerable popular support being 'advised' by Cardassians, and with only a few religious fanatic holdouts seriously opposing the new regime.

Come to think of it, that's... pretty much what Afghanistan was like for the Soviets at first.

Actually, just thought of something, we should try to foucs our EC around the Cardassian Territories, we should try to check their expansion potential and contest it, at the very least, by the release of propaganda to any species within those areas.
Course, only the most veteran EC crews should be allotted to the furthest areas, for obvious reasons
That's... not a bad idea. That is, after all, more or less what we we did with the Explorer Corps from about 2305-08, and it was very successful at curbing Cardassian expansion before they could 'get to' the Indorians, the Apiata, or the Seyek. We particularly dodged a bullet with how well the Explorer Corps handled the Apiata, as Briefvoice's recent omake illustrates.

Right now our explorers are pretty busy, in particular because of the Licori War, but I definitely agree we should try to poke out past Seyek space and try to get contact with the species in that region before they get snapped up. We know what we have to do in order to try to 'push around' the Cardassians' coreward flank, but their rimward flank is pretty much unexplored territory.




About this, will we need to do anything to reclassify Excelsiors as Explorer, Light once our new Explorer, Capital (Ambassador Class) starts to come on line? if so, how will we need to do this?
WHY would we need to? What is the purpose of doing this? The only reason we have these ship roles is to formalize things we need Council approval for. We don't need Council approval for the Ambassadors because we already have it.
 
[X] [ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]
[X][WG] A 2v2 with any Ships, including member world ships - Gaeni Tech-Frigate and Tech-Cruiser versus an Excelsior [Excelsior] and a Miranda [Svai] with the explicit purpose of learning to counter a Tech-Ship doctrine.


@OneirosTheWriter when will we get the vote to replace the EC admiral since we promoted him to ops
 
I'll stick with this at the moment. I feel we should consider @SynchronizedWritersBlock 's mentat hunt, however.

Just to write it up...

[ ] [WG] A Fleet "Battle". The Gale, Harmony, Astute, and Assist vs the T'Mir and runabouts to simulate civilian traffic. The Svai and Calypso are available as a reserve. The objective is to prevent the "mentat" on the T'Mir from penetrating the patrol area and destructively completing their thesis, which would result in the annihilation of Betazed. A second Oberth [Torbriel] is secretly participating as a decoy. Cost: 4pp.


Might also help our coordination with our friends from Betazed. Unsure if we should go for it, but it's cheap!
e: And yes, half the fun would be watching the C3 S7 H3 L4 T'Mir style all over the patrol ships it encounters.
 
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Uh, I feel the need to remind people that the point of these "wargames" are to see how things play out in Oneiros's combat engine.
 
Uh, I feel the need to remind people that the point of these "wargames" are to see how things play out in Oneiros's combat engine.
Thing is, we have a pretty good idea how that works in-game after watching what happened at Deva IX and Lora III. We're comfy with the new engine now. Even I am; my fears did not materialize.

Which means we're back to having wargames for the reason REAL navies have wargames- to see what happens when ships try to do things that we're worried they may try to do.

Besides, we actually know a lot LESS about the mechanics of ship detection, evasion, and fleet maneuvers than we do about fleet battles. Every time fleets fight we get a detailed log of what happened. When ships try to sneak past one another, we have no idea what happened, mechanically, or why they succeed or fail. If there's any part of the rules we want to explore, it'd be the part involving ship evasion and detection, which is exactly what SWB's proposal puts to the test.

...

I like SWB's idea, and it juuust might persuade the Vulcans and Betazoids to be a bit less complacent about how many ships are needed to secure the border while THUIR SMASH and BLUE KIRK and T'LOREL THE DEVASTATOR finish off the Licori battlefleet.

[X] [ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]
[X] [WG] A Fleet "Battle". The Gale, Harmony, Astute, and Assist vs the T'Mir and runabouts to simulate civilian traffic. The Svai and Calypso are available as a reserve. The objective is to prevent the "mentat" on the T'Mir from penetrating the patrol area and destructively completing their thesis, which would result in the annihilation of Betazed. A second Oberth [Torbriel] is secretly participating as a decoy. Cost: 4pp.
 
By the way, since the 2315 Shipyard Ops is coming up here is my preliminary plan. Excelsior berths being left open to avoid crew/sr crunch in out-years and due to high probability we will need them for repairs.


[no vote][BUILD] 2315 2 Excelsior-A, 1 Renaissance, 2 Miranda-A refits
  • SF Berth A – Leave empty after Kumari completes repairs (do not resume NCC-1665 Miranda-A build) in preparation for Ambassador prototype in 2316
  • SF Berth 1 – Occupied with Miranda-A build as double build using Chen's bonus (ETC 2316.Q1)
  • SF Berth 2 - Occupied with Miranda-A build as double build using Chen's bonus (ETC 2316.Q1)
  • 40 Eridani Berth A – Leave empty after Courageous refit completes (ETC 2315.Q3)
  • 40 Eridani Berth B – Leave empty.
  • 40 Eridani Berth 1 - Begin refit of Dryad in 2315.Q3 (ETC 2316.Q3)
  • 40 Eridani Berth 2 - Begin refit of Calypso in 2315.Q3 (ETC 2316.Q3)
  • Ana Font Berth A - Occupied with Excelsior build (ETC 2317.Q1)
  • Ana Font Berth 1 - Occupied with Renaissance build (ETC 2317.Q2)
  • LOCF Berth A – Leave empty.
  • LOCF Berth 1 – Begin Renaissance build in 2315.Q2 (ETC 2318.Q2)
  • UP Berth A – Begin Excelsior-A in 2315.Q2 as double build using Chen's bonus (ETC 2318.Q2)
  • UP Berth B - Occupied with Excelsior build (ETC 2317.Q1)
  • UP Berth C - Begin Excelsior-A in 2315.Q2 as double build using Chen's bonus (ETC 2318.Q2)
  • UP Berth 1 – Occupied with Renaissance under construction as triple build using Chen's bonus (ETC 2316.Q3)
  • UP Berth 2 - Occupied with Renaissance under construction as triple build using Chen's bonus (ETC 2316.Q3)
  • UP Berth 3 - Occupied with Renaissance under construction as triple build using Chen's bonus (ETC 2316.Q3)
 
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