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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Vebyast said:
So we have to not just physically eject him, we have to make him incapable of talking. Which means grief interdiction.
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Do bear in mind that if QB is going to witchbomb Bennouna to fuck with us, then absolutely nothing stops him from doing that once she's no longer in our anti-QB zone.

Subjecting her to our magic without explanation also has an opportunity cost. We should push QB to leave, due to his effect on Mami, but preventing more subtle stuff is impractical.
 
The Narrator said:
I call bullshit on the idea that Western culture is less negatively disposed to having your soul removed from your body. People in Abrahamic religions are cool with the idea of their soul leaving their body when they die. I think most people who actually believed in a soul would be deeply disturbed by the idea of having it removed from their body while they were alive. "A creature with no soul" is a classic description of a horror movie monster. And the whole idea of making a contract in which you trade away your soul is very directly tied to most Western people's conception of the Devil, and pretty much an automatic "you're going to hell" clause in those religions. That's why there are quotes from Faust on the walls in PMMM and the end credits finish on a shot of a Mephistopheles mask.

Just listen to how much the religious conservatives in the U.S. freak out whenever the subject of cloning is raised. For a lot of people in the West, souls are Serious Business.
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It's not "Westerners are cool with the lichbomb" but "Westerners are more better equipped to deal with the proceeding self-concept based on their cultural backgrounds." The issue about violating their soul without consent is still a HUGE deal but most westerners, by contrast to the typical Japanese person, won't consider themselves walking undead horrors that pollute the world by merely existing. They might consider it unnatural but they probably won't consider it filthy.

Kaizuki said:
You can quote elements of Buddhist Metaphysics on a whim, Aura. Your arguments all sound like new age bullshit that I've trained myself to ignore, despite the fact that frankly they're effective and grounded for pmmm.

In summary an Aura-esque argument is anything I think is probably legit and insightful because pf the setting but simultaneously sounds like something I'd poo-poo if I heard it with regards to nonfiction. They're also generally things I would never think of on my own because I can't even into the stuff whereas you can pull it out of your head at the drop of a hat.
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Okay. I just wanted that clarification because in the original context it was associated with the idea of unattended grief doing fucky Malus Ex Machina shit like in Witch Quest, so I just wanted to challenge any association of my name with "cracktheory bullshit cynicism."
 
Onmur said:
-[X] If Kyuubey insists on staying, ask Nadia if she'll mind us using our powers for a moment. Make a Grief Stand that'd ban Kyuubey from seeing, hearing, or otherwise interacting with the lot of you.
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I'm no fan of Kyuubey, and it would be better for Mami and Sabrina's peace-of-mind for him to be absent, but there's no particular need (in this case) to prevent him from knowing what we're talking about. The whole point of grief/clear seed distribution is to make it public.

The Narrator said:
Just listen to how much the religious conservatives in the U.S. freak out whenever the subject of cloning is raised. For a lot of people in the West, souls are Serious Business.
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Clones in general are not really an issue of the soul (they're functionally equivalent to identical twins). But in the context of PMMM, it's possible that Witches created from familiars are clones of souls, so that could potentially be an issue.

Appletank said:
Random thought: Does the whole "Western culture doesn't care that much about having their soul outside" thing make it so Western meguca are a lot more well adjusted? Does that lead to Incubators being a lot more lax, or Incubators avoiding western countries due to lack of oh-god-why-despair?
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After a magical girl makes a contract, her death via witchout is inevitable except for (comparatively rare) cases where the soul gem is destroyed. An emotionally stable girl might last longer before witching out, but (from Kyuubey's perspective), the end result is the same. Canon generally indicates that Kyuubey is willing to makes contracts with anyone who wishes to make one and has the potential to do so.

If we could change the system (e.g. by introducing clear seeds for everyone) so that the average lifespan of a magical girl was 1000 years instead of ~2 years and we assume that the witchout percentage is still the same (or that the difference could be made up for in other ways like grief generated by using magic), then Kyuubey should be just as happy as he is now and forcing more witchouts would not increase his overall energy production.

Vebyast said:
There's also the possibility that Witches, or Grief Seeds, produce some amount of grief continuously and passively, making each a permanent source of energy. Kyubey's quota, then, would be a certain quantity of permanent generating capacity. This, combined with the part where humans are strange abominations that occasionally make universe-altering wishes, throws some of Kyubey's stranger actions into sharp relief. He's not attempting to maximize his reward. He's attempting to maximize the probability that he fills his quota before humanity destroys itself.
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It's possible (even likely) that grief seeds are continuous producers of negentropy. But also remember that Kyuubey actively recruits girls to fight witches and provides (limited) help for them to do so. It would appear that Kyuubey gets more benefit from continuously generating new contracts (and witches) than he would by simply letting the old witches run rampant. It is in Kyuubey's best interests to encourage a stable long term equilibrium. So I wouldn't be surprised to find that he is (provisionally) on board with the clear seed distribution plan.
 
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[X] Keep your cool. Comfort Mami.
[X] Get rid of KB and make sure it stays out of this.
-[X] Escalate only as much as you need to; if KB goes away as soon as you tell it to, great; if you need to take measures, be mindful of Nadia, specially if you need to make witch constructs.
[X] Vote in abeyance.
 
No reason not to give Kyuubey precisely the bare minimum of cordiality. It knows its presence disturbs Mami, and we told him to fuck off and stay fucked off for exactly that reason. If it needs to talk to us about something, it can do so from somewhere where we can't see it and Mami can't hear it.

Regarding clear seeds (acknowledging we've probably had this discussion before), are we totally sure we want to publicize them? If we develop a better solution (e.g. joobs) or discover they are actually flawed/dangerous, they're going to be a pain in the ass to recall (because 9/10 megucas will fight to the death to keep them), and we can't enforce any edicts on their use due to our small sphere of influence. It might be prudent if Bennouna could only inform magical girls she thinks are both responsible about handling sensitive information and experts in relevant thaumotological fields.

Also, now is a superb time to get a head start on this Asunaro thing. Umika's barrier doesn't prevent people from leaving the city-- if the Pleiades have started their meguca pogrom or some kind of disaster's hit the city, word should be getting out in some form or another (e.g. meguca bugging the fuck out when all of their friends suddenly drop off the face of the earth), and Bennouna would be the best person to pick up on that.
 
Welp kyubey arrived.

I want to say i'm start panicking but seeing the breaking of puella magi system project continue just makes me too happy
 
We need some grief on Kyuubey to tell where his back is if we want to successfully put grief in it without following him to the roof. So just make a grief harness with the grief we got off of Bennouna and drag him to the roof. There's nothing stopping us from having a conversation with or about him after he's out of Mami's sight.
 
Okay, I stand by my declaration of keeping the vote simple, but I will agree that it makes sense to evict Kyuubey for Mami's sake

However, simply sending him to the roof for a while to collect Grief neatly sidesteps a lot of the issues that simply giving him the boot would raise, thus I'm sticking with my vote
 
FelOnyx said:
Somebody who thinks of themselves as a soul living in a brain may be able to switch pretty easily to being a soul living in a rock. Someone who thinks of their soul more as a possession than literally what they are (because not everyone is a theologian) may freak the hell out, or rationalize with the fact that they do still own their soul gem. And then people who have never thought twice about their soul may not care. (Which given the age of meguca, I imagine is a lot more of them than we tend to think)

Trading away your soul is considered a ticket to hell because the deal is literally that you're giving yourself to the devil to take with him to hell. Kyubey is not the literal devil, though certainly a metaphorical one, and he doesn't take your soul so much as repackage it and give it back. (Well, he does take it should you become a witch and somebody gives him your grief seed, but that's a whole 'nother bomb)
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Incubator could be a corruption of Incubus. The Faustian quotes could indicate that Faust was familar with and referring to Kyuubey.

He may have led Madoka to beleive he was an alien, bt he led Tarte to beleive he was an Angel. The truth may be a little of both but more of a third option!
 
Matou Sutegobana said:
Incubator could be a corruption of Incubus. The Faustian quotes could indicate that Faust was familar with and referring to Kyuubey.

He may have led Madoka to beleive he was an alien, bt he led Tarte to beleive he was an Angel. The truth may be a little of both but more of a third option!
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You know, Kyubey did influence magical girl media to cast his operation in a positive light and draw in recruits, but Faust still exists.

How do you think he'd react if we called him Mephistopheles? Even if Bennouna doesn't know about the lichbomb, she's well travelled enough to be able to infer that we don't like him, and precisely why we don't like him.
 
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[x]Criticize Kyubey's form at attempting to reacclimate Mami to his presence.
-[x]If you want to discuss something with me privately, it can wait until this meeting ends. I can send some grief for you on the roof if you like.
-[x]Apologize in advance for what you're about to do. If what you're concerned about comes to pass, there will be significantly less to lose from what you will do. You don't want anybody getting tricked if you can avoid it.
-[x]If you must join in this conversation, be advised that if you reveal any unsolicited information regarding certain items of information that have strong correlations with the decline and death of magical girls upon exposure, I will reveal certain details I've held back for Homura's sake that would spoil any chance of contracting Madoka on favorable terms, given my level of understanding of your psychology. If somebody asks, you will tell them and only them. I will hold back on revealing such information until the end of the month if you accept these terms. Unless somebody else does so first, you will have first claim on explaining the details to Madoka.
-[x]Encourage Madoka to ask you or Homura for advice before considering any contract.
-[x]Acceptable, Kyubey?

Indirectly reassuring Homura this will be keeping to the letter of her promise. Revealing the existence of memetic hazards. Establishing an insurance policy against Kyubey dropping the Witchbomb during this conversation while hedging bets. Any thoughts?
 
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Conjured Blade said:
Indirectly reassuring Homura this will be keeping to the letter of her promise. Revealing the existence of memetic hazards. Establishing an insurance policy against Kyubey dropping the Witchbomb during this conversation while hedging bets. Any thoughts?
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This seems... way too forward, and a lot more than I'd be comfortable doing in one vote.
Also a good way to derail our lunch meeting permanently. Unless you're suggesting this is all in private 1v1 with Kyubey? Telepathy, to clarify.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
I feel like @Godwinson 's vote focuses too much on the lichbomb, when in the Sunni Islam paradigm it's a much smaller deal then Japan's whole "I'm not human anymooree~!" thing.

Paring it down.


[X] Feed Kyuubey the grief that you just removed from Bennouna's soul gem. Politely insist that Kyuubey leave - its presence is an unwelcome disruption at this meeting. You have some more grief that you'll give it later.
-[X] If it refuses, use grief to remove it from the area, nonviolently.

[X] Hold Mami's hand, tracing out reassurances with your fingers.

[X] If Bennouna asks why our group wants nothing to do with Kyuubey, tell her it was concealing some information from Mami and the rest of the group that it really should have shared.
-[X] If she doesn't ask, don't bring it up.

(Everything after this is just me shuffling the vote in abeyance around)

[X] Share information on your abilities, in particular the creation of Clear Seeds, offering proof or demonstrations when requested as practical. Inquire about other girls who might have similar powers, and if she knows of any examples of large scale cooperation between girls that "went right" and operates smoothly.

[x] Since you have this ability, and can spread it by creating clear seeds, you'd like to try and improve the global situation for magical girls in general. But... you know it's not that easy.
-[X] You've foreseen lots of problems with infinite cleansing - abuse, people rejecting it because it's "too good to be true", upsetting power structures, general making-things-worse.

[x] So you'd like her assistance as well - both with sharing information she thinks is useful for our purpose, properly compensated of course, and in spreading news about our offer to people who she thinks would be reasonable.
-[x] That said, even unreasonable people who ask about us, should hear our offer. We know word is going to get out, and it'd be better if our position wasn't misrepresented. We really don't want there to be fights and conflict due to it.
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You know what, this is what I want. Redshirt, I think the order of [] hold hand VS [] feed grief should be switched, because the former is a free action that we can + should start immediately.

I do also think that we're better off if we don't bother verbally telling QB to leave.

[] Politely greet Kyubey and simultaneously use grief to nonviolently remove him from the meeting. Feed him some grief while you're at it.

Was my take on the "eject QB" line, I think it's an improvment, but also a minimal one.

[X] Redshirt Army
 
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[X] Redshirt Army

this is good: straightforward, simple, lets us look professional, very much what I would expect of Sabrina at this point
 
Tally
Adhoc vote count started by defenestrator on Mar 27, 2017 at 9:29 PM, finished with 113456 posts and 19 votes.
  • [X] Feed Kyuubey the grief that you just removed from Bennouna's soul gem. Politely insist that Kyuubey leave - its presence is an unwelcome disruption at this meeting. You have some more grief that you'll give it later.
    -[X] If it refuses, use grief to remove it from the area, nonviolently.
    [X] Hold Mami's hand, tracing out reassurances with your fingers.
    [X] If Bennouna asks why our group wants nothing to do with Kyuubey, tell her it was concealing some information from Mami and the rest of the group that it really should have shared.
    -[X] If she doesn't ask, don't bring it up.
    [X] Share information on your abilities, in particular the creation of Clear Seeds, offering proof or demonstrations when requested as practical. Inquire about other girls who might have similar powers, and if she knows of any examples of large scale cooperation between girls that "went right" and operates smoothly.
    [x] Since you have this ability, and can spread it by creating clear seeds, you'd like to try and improve the global situation for magical girls in general. But... you know it's not that easy.
    -[X] You've foreseen lots of problems with infinite cleansing - abuse, people rejecting it because it's "too good to be true", upsetting power structures, general making-things-worse.
    [x] So you'd like her assistance as well - both with sharing information she thinks is useful for our purpose, properly compensated of course, and in spreading news about our offer to people who she thinks would be reasonable.
    -[x] That said, even unreasonable people who ask about us, should hear our offer. We know word is going to get out, and it'd be better if our position wasn't misrepresented. We really don't want there to be fights and conflict due to it.
    [X] Feed Kyuubey the grief that you just removed from Bennouna's soul gem. Politely insist that Kyuubey leave - its presence is an unwelcome disruption at this meeting. You have some more grief that you'll give it later.
    -[X] If it refuses, use grief to remove it from the area, nonviolently.
    [X] Hold Mami's hand, tracing out reassurances with your fingers.
    [X] Continue with vote in abeyance.
    [X] If Bennouna asks why our group wants nothing to do with Kyuubey, very gently lichbomb her.
    -[X] If Bennouna insists on receiving proof, then ask Mami to take your soul gem out of range. Leave the cafe first, to avoid frightening people. Mami, so that way you'll still be with her the entire way. You're not going to ask anyone else to disconnect themselves, and you don't really mind it.
    --[X] Take the opportunity to try to remain aware through your soul gem while being disconnected.
    ---[X] Manifest Chibi-Brina before being disconnected. Explain it before you manifest it, to avoid problems. Use it to help maintain focus, to lessen the impact of Mami seeing the lichbomb being demonstrated, and to steal some quick Mumi-hugs.
    [x] Remain calm. Help Mami remain calm. Hold her hand if possible, but be professional about it.
    [x] Tell Kyubey that we have some Grief to deliver to him. It's waiting up on the roof. He should head up there so we can give it to him. And after he does so, he should contact whatever his species considers an expert on the subject of grief and ask if there's a way to make our grief into a form that's more efficient for their conversion rates.
    -[x] If he already knows one, then give the grief out in that form, unless it takes meditation, in which case we can feed him later.
    -[x] While he goes up there, stay down here and remotely guide a couple seeds' worth of Grief into his back while we continue to talk to Nadia.
    [x] If Nadia seems to realize that Kyubey makes Mami uncomfortable, let Mami decide how much she's willing to share about the reason why.
    [x] Continue vote in abeyance.
    [X] Stay calm and impartial.
    [X] Tell Kyubey that we have some Grief that needs disposing off if he wants them.
    [X] While you're busy dumping grief into his back, ask why he's here.
    [X] Ask Nadia if she's okay with his presence.
    -[X] If not, kindly ask Kyubey to go somewhere else.
    [X] Continue Vote in Abeyance.
    [x] Remain calm. Help Mami remain calm. Hold her hand.
    [x] Tell Kyubey that we have some Grief to deliver to him. It's waiting up on the roof. He should head up there so we can give it to him.
    -[x] While he goes up there, stay down here and remotely guide a couple seeds' worth of Grief into his back while we continue to talk to Nadia.
    [x] If Nadia seems to realize that Kyubey makes Mami uncomfortable, let Mami decide how much she's willing to share about the reason why.
    [x] Continue vote in abeyance.
    [x] Tell Kyubey that he's not welcome here and that he needs to leave.
    [x] Regardless of his response, grief up a device to interdict his telepathy. Being in public means you can't go full privacy sphere, but Kyubey does not get a word in this discussion.
    -[x] Warn Bennouna about what you're about to do and how it'll feel a bit witchy.
    [x] When she asks what happened, caaaarefully try to exchange bomb statuses with her - we and Homura know everything, find out how many she's gotten, the rest of the party only has half of them.
    [x] Sabrina
    [x]Criticize Kyubey's form at attempting to reacclimate Mami to his presence.
    -[x]If you want to discuss something with me privately, it can wait until this meeting ends. I can send some grief for you on the roof if you like.
    -[x]Apologize in advance for what you're about to do. If what you're concerned about comes to pass, there will be significantly less to lose from what you will do. You don't want anybody getting tricked if you can avoid it.
    -[x]If you must join in this conversation, be advised that if you reveal any unsolicited information regarding certain items of information that have strong correlations with the decline and death of magical girls upon exposure, I will reveal certain details I've held back for Homura's sake that would spoil any chance of contracting Madoka on favorable terms, given my level of understanding of your psychology. If somebody asks, you will tell them and only them. I will hold back on revealing such information until the end of the month if you accept these terms. Unless somebody else does so first, you will have first claim on explaining the details to Madoka.
    -[x]Encourage Madoka to ask you or Homura for advice before considering any contract.
    -[x]Acceptable, Kyubey?
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