Starfleet Design Bureau

The point of the Federation isn't the coverage. I mean, it helps a lot in its main role, but the point is actually that it's huge and really hard to kill. Starfleet tried using light cruisers for this last war and it annihilated the Newton fleet. Keas fared much, much better (I don't think any of them died during the Battle of Andoria?) because they had the shields and hull to survive barely moving to stay in formation.

The Miranda will have roughly the same HP (38 vs 40 shields so a little more, 48 vs ~43 hull unless there are speed bonuses?) and a Medium speed rating at 200kt vs Slow 260kt. I'm not sure how the speed scaling works in reverse but the Kea was as slow as something ~500kt medium? With a 75% damage uplift(12 phaser damage vs 21, equal torpedoes but speed favors the Miranda) from new phaser tech vs the refit Kea.

Fair enough, though I'd like to note that whilst I disagree with your points I do still respect the effort you put into supporting them/making sure they're heard.

dankie. it's been a long vote, I should do something better with my vacation 🥹
 
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We should also consider the Cost/Lifespan. Instead of a cheap 100 cost design that is outdated and decommissioned after only 30 years, we're designing a 150 (ish) cost ship that could remain fit for purpose for 60 years.
 
The Miranda will have roughly the same HP (38 vs 40 shields so a little more, 48 vs ~43 hull unless there are speed bonuses?) and a Medium speed rating at 200kt vs Slow 260kt. I'm not sure how the speed scaling works in reverse but the Kea was as slow as something ~500kt medium? With a 75% damage uplift(12 phaser damage vs 21, equal torpedoes but speed favors the Miranda) from new phaser tech vs the refit Kea.
How are you getting 200kt for the Miranda? That would effectively put it at the same mass as a Constitution, which doesn't seem correct for how this quest has defined ship masses so far. There's certainly sources which describe the Miranda as massing nearly as much, but not over 95%.

It also wouldn't make much sense with the described modules of the Miranda:
Shuttles, cargo, basic science. It's an everyman cruiser designed to potter around the interior helping out where help is needed.
Unless it's dedicating multiple modules to shuttles or cargo, a 200kt ship should be significantly more capable than that. And it was described as a midweight ship that totals to 80 cost. Once we strip out 6 phasers, 4 torpedoes and a thruster, we end up about 45 cost remaining. Then we subtract two nacelles and a standard warp core, which cost 20 and weigh 40kt.

So unless San Fran is going where no man has gone before and cutting corners previously unheard of in the Federation, they're not buying 160kt of hull with 25 cost. This thing is not going to be anywhere near as durable as a Kea.

EDIT: After double checking the cost difference, I think it is actually possible to get something around 160kt with standard covariant, so it turns out the corner cutting necessary is probably quite reasonable.
 
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dankie. it's been a long vote, I should do something better with my vacation 🥹
No problem, as you say it's been a long vote, and part of our first post-war design, neither of those are exactly going to be the most conductive towards back and forth talks from people with differing opinions.

How are you getting 200kt for the Miranda? That would effectively put it at the same mass as a Constitution, which doesn't seem correct for how this quest has defined ship masses so far. There's certainly sources which describe the Miranda as massing nearly as much, but not over 95%.
The Miranda-class is more voluminous than the pre-refit Constitution, and thus outmasses it, the same is going to be true for the SDB Miranda to the Excalibur (which is already less massive than the Connie). I believe Sayle also mentioned as much.

Not quest cannon but per Star Trek v Star Wars volumetrics (which is probably the most comprehensive database of pre-2009 trek ship volumes and speculative masses on the internet).
Construction class (pre-refit): 211,248m3, and between 236,300 and 914,400 tonnes
Miranda class: 217,770m3 (vs refit Connie being 234,938m3) and between 243,600 and 942,700 tonnes.
 
The Miranda-class is more voluminous than the pre-refit Constitution, and thus outmasses it, the same is going to be true for the SDB Miranda to the Excalibur (which is already less massive than the Connie). I believe Sayle also mentioned as much.

Not quest cannon but per Star Trek v Star Wars volumetrics (which is probably the most comprehensive database of pre-2009 trek ship volumes and speculative masses on the internet).
Construction class (pre-refit): 211,248m3, and between 236,300 and 914,400 tonnes
Miranda class: 217,770m3 (vs refit Connie being 234,938m3) and between 243,600 and 942,700 tonnes.
Having actually taken a closer look at the hull numbers, assuming 6 phasers, 4 torpedo tubes, one thruster, two nacelles and a standard warp drive the Miranda should either be 230kt or 180kt depending on if it uses standard or heavy shields. 28 cost will buy 194kt of standard shielded hull or 142kt of heavy shielded hull.

This should give it either 46 or 45 shield and either 48 or 38 hull. If we do assume that it's slightly heavier than a canon Constitution, it would be 230kt which is also a Kea-sized heavy cruiser? I guess ships are getting bigger? It's also entirely more durable than a Kea and better armed to boot. How is this midweight?

Regardless, if it actually is the 230kt ship, we're a fair bit more durable with an extra 30 shield and an extra 10 hull and we'll hit harder with a similar weapons fit that all deals more damage, but we really do need to differentiate this by the modules. The Miranda will probably be refit with the same weapons as the Federation at some point (the same number too if we go with 6 phasers), so we're not going to hit harder for long. I still think it's probably worth spending extra to get full coverage, so we don't have literally the exact same weapons as a Miranda post-refit, but it probably doesn't matter that much.

That means our only real differentiation (aside from being 50% more durable) is our much-improved cruise speed and our extra 70kt of space, so we probably need to figure out something that involves a whole lot of flying all the time if we want to see a decent order quantity. If the Miranda is actually 230kt and carries a basic science lab, extra shuttles and cargo it'll probably have like 5 cargo modules, so that might make a dedicated cargo hauler unattractive. I'm not sure what else benefits so much from the max cruise, though. Emergency response or high-value cargo, maybe?
 
Having actually taken a closer look at the hull numbers, assuming 6 phasers, 4 torpedo tubes, one thruster, two nacelles and a standard warp drive the Miranda should either be 230kt or 180kt depending on if it uses standard or heavy shields. 28 cost will buy 194kt of standard shielded hull or 142kt of heavy shielded hull.

This should give it either 46 or 45 shield and either 48 or 38 hull. If we do assume that it's slightly heavier than a canon Constitution, it would be 230kt which is also a Kea-sized heavy cruiser? I guess ships are getting bigger? It's also entirely more durable than a Kea and better armed to boot. How is this midweight?

Regardless, if it actually is the 230kt ship, we're a fair bit more durable with an extra 30 shield and an extra 10 hull and we'll hit harder with a similar weapons fit that all deals more damage, but we really do need to differentiate this by the modules. The Miranda will probably be refit with the same weapons as the Federation at some point (the same number too if we go with 6 phasers), so we're not going to hit harder for long. I still think it's probably worth spending extra to get full coverage, so we don't have literally the exact same weapons as a Miranda post-refit, but it probably doesn't matter that much.

That means our only real differentiation (aside from being 50% more durable) is our much-improved cruise speed and our extra 70kt of space, so we probably need to figure out something that involves a whole lot of flying all the time if we want to see a decent order quantity. If the Miranda is actually 230kt and carries a basic science lab, extra shuttles and cargo it'll probably have like 5 cargo modules, so that might make a dedicated cargo hauler unattractive. I'm not sure what else benefits so much from the max cruise, though. Emergency response or high-value cargo, maybe?
A bit of everything might be attractive? I mean that quite seriously, if our ship is able to see off any intruders, deal with small-scale cargo deliveries, do pharmacology and optionally prospect for rare minerals, deal with diplomatic stuff etc it might be worth the cost knowing that any of those issues can be dealt with, rather than having to have multiple ships in the area. We can keep up an impressive warp 6.8 for months or years, that's a huge amount of missions it can undertake over time.
 
No idea how Sayle would go about it but listening to some Undiscovered Country stuff, I'd be interested to see how we could influence or be influenced by the pro-war faction.
 
Looking at Sayle's latest tally, it seems like the 10 bank option of the newest phasers is ahead - which, as I'd noted in my vote post, is fine by me, because I cared more about "new phasers" than "how many new phasers".
 
My read of the brief for the Federation is that it's not supposed to built in large numbers. It's supposed to be an uncommon heavy vessel that when it shows up makes a huge impact- whether that's in combat, or in whatever its non-combat role ends up being. It's all very well having a bunch of lighter cruisers, and I won't deny the utility of those, but sometimes you really do need the big stick.
 
My read of the brief for the Federation is that it's not supposed to built in large numbers. It's supposed to be an uncommon heavy vessel that when it shows up makes a huge impact- whether that's in combat, or in whatever its non-combat role ends up being. It's all very well having a bunch of lighter cruisers, and I won't deny the utility of those, but sometimes you really do need the big stick.

Basically this. I want people's reaction to hearing that a Federation class has been dispatched to help them with something is "everything's gonna be ok."

And since it looks like the maximum phaser option is gonna win, we don't have to go crazy on the torpedoes. I'm fine with that, since the Callies have that covered and are far better at it.
 
100% phaser coverage is going to be absolutely brutal for any enemy to deal with. There's literally no blind spots to dive into for temporary cover, just another phaser bank already aimed at the place you're about to fly through. You are under constant heavy phaser barrage once you enter combat range of the Federation-class.

Our Excaliburs' single aft phaser bank ended up overheating during sustained fire against pursuers, with 10 separate banks of phasers that should not become a problem as the Federation-class can maneuver to bring another phaser into play to give the hot one a break.

... fair warning, you might have Mirror Kirk showing up to snatch a copy of the blueprints of this bad boy :tongue:
 
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Basically this. I want people's reaction to hearing that a Federation class has been dispatched to help them with something is "everything's gonna be ok."

And since it looks like the maximum phaser option is gonna win, we don't have to go crazy on the torpedoes. I'm fine with that, since the Callies have that covered and are far better at it.

This is the opposite of what you want to do. The Federation is not going to be appreciably larger then the Mirandas, see Starfleet Design Bureau Sci-Fi, especially at the 165 minimum cost for 3 torpedoes total. Dumping damage after spending 50 points on phasers is just going to make the Federation worse in all metrics vs 2 Mirandas that you can get for the cost.

If you're worried about costs, imo the last chance for effective savings is now.
 
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This is the opposite of what you want to do. The Federation is not going to be appreciably larger then the Mirandas, see Starfleet Design Bureau Sci-Fi, especially at the 165 minimum cost for 3 torpedoes total. Dumping damage after spending 50 points on phasers is just going to make the Federation worse in all metrics vs 2 Mirandas that you can get for the cost.

If you're worried about costs, imo the last chance for effective savings is now.
We have two (E: forward) torpedo tubes and that's it. This is not going to be a torpedo ship regardless of what we pick for the phaser vote.
 
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We have two (E: forward) torpedo tubes and that's it. This is not going to be a torpedo ship regardless of what we pick for the phaser vote.

Wrong I believe. Starfleet Design Bureau Sci-Fi

It's going to be 2 forward and 1 rear, with maybe the option for 2/2. 165 minimum if you use 3 slots and you've already spent the money on engines it would be a waste not to use the type 4s.

Or the thread might go ham with RFLs, there are a lot of voters who only reasoning is go big or go home meme votes.
 
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Having actually taken a closer look at the hull numbers, assuming 6 phasers, 4 torpedo tubes, one thruster, two nacelles and a standard warp drive the Miranda should either be 230kt or 180kt depending on if it uses standard or heavy shields. 28 cost will buy 194kt of standard shielded hull or 142kt of heavy shielded hull.

This should give it either 46 or 45 shield and either 48 or 38 hull. If we do assume that it's slightly heavier than a canon Constitution, it would be 230kt which is also a Kea-sized heavy cruiser? I guess ships are getting bigger? It's also entirely more durable than a Kea and better armed to boot. How is this midweight?

Regardless, if it actually is the 230kt ship, we're a fair bit more durable with an extra 30 shield and an extra 10 hull and we'll hit harder with a similar weapons fit that all deals more damage, but we really do need to differentiate this by the modules. The Miranda will probably be refit with the same weapons as the Federation at some point (the same number too if we go with 6 phasers), so we're not going to hit harder for long. I still think it's probably worth spending extra to get full coverage, so we don't have literally the exact same weapons as a Miranda post-refit, but it probably doesn't matter that much.

That means our only real differentiation (aside from being 50% more durable) is our much-improved cruise speed and our extra 70kt of space, so we probably need to figure out something that involves a whole lot of flying all the time if we want to see a decent order quantity. If the Miranda is actually 230kt and carries a basic science lab, extra shuttles and cargo it'll probably have like 5 cargo modules, so that might make a dedicated cargo hauler unattractive. I'm not sure what else benefits so much from the max cruise, though. Emergency response or high-value cargo, maybe?
I would be curious to see the cost breakdown here. Are you looking at Type 1s for both torpedo and phasers? Keeping in mind that type 4 torpedoes are larger so it is not as easy to refit Type 1 to Type 4. The shield strength I can see making a difference in cost, going standard will save cost there compared to the heavy we picked. Given the quest Miranda will be 80 cost and our Federation will likely be close to double that I am curious what the tonnage difference is.

Also keep in mind that the higher tonnage of our ship does mean phasers of the same type do hit for more which does mean we should be sitting at higher damage.
 
Having actually taken a closer look at the hull numbers, assuming 6 phasers, 4 torpedo tubes, one thruster, two nacelles and a standard warp drive the Miranda should either be 230kt or 180kt depending on if it uses standard or heavy shields. 28 cost will buy 194kt of standard shielded hull or 142kt of heavy shielded hull.

This should give it either 46 or 45 shield and either 48 or 38 hull. If we do assume that it's slightly heavier than a canon Constitution, it would be 230kt which is also a Kea-sized heavy cruiser? I guess ships are getting bigger? It's also entirely more durable than a Kea and better armed to boot. How is this midweight?
The OTL Constitution is 190 kt in this quest; you can see its stat block in the Excalibur Retrospective
@Strunkriidiisk did numbers here for a theoretical 200kt Miranda
Prospective Miranda cost, assuming middle-of-the-road spending:
Shields: 22.8 (200kt, standard-weight covariant shields at 11.4/100kt)
Hull: 6 (Duratanium, 3/100kt) 3
Warp Core: 8 (standard)
Nacelles: 11.5
1 type-3 thruster: 5
8 type-2 phaser 'banks': 24
4 type-1 launchers: 9

Total: 86.3 83.3?

All in all, a tidy little ship. But it just goes to show that we can't expect to compete on price - we need to prototype the new armaments which means that if we treat the Miranda's complement/arrangement as our baseline - and even if we cut phaser count by a quarter down to 6 and only upgrade forward tubes to Type-4s - we're still looking at a final cost of 143.5 - i.e. two thirds more expensive. That also leaves us with a slightly lower alpha strike than the Excalibur (102 versus 110), which, while it may not strictly be as necessary for the Fed's intended role, is concerning for a much heavier ship with less ability to pick and choose fights.

Standards are moving targets, and differ between generations
The Sagamartha was 290,000 tons as a heavy explorer, and was commissioned inn 2275
Thirty six years later, the Kea was 255,000 tons

Size inflation is ongoing and accelerating; if even the Klingons are building 180kton pure warships, you know theres solid technological trends in play
Regardless, if it actually is the 230kt ship, we're a fair bit more durable with an extra 30 shield and an extra 10 hull and we'll hit harder with a similar weapons fit that all deals more damage, but we really do need to differentiate this by the modules. The Miranda will probably be refit with the same weapons as the Federation at some point (the same number too if we go with 6 phasers), so we're not going to hit harder for long. I still think it's probably worth spending extra to get full coverage, so we don't have literally the exact same weapons as a Miranda post-refit, but it probably doesn't matter that much.

That means our only real differentiation (aside from being 50% more durable) is our much-improved cruise speed and our extra 70kt of space, so we probably need to figure out something that involves a whole lot of flying all the time if we want to see a decent order quantity. If the Miranda is actually 230kt and carries a basic science lab, extra shuttles and cargo it'll probably have like 5 cargo modules, so that might make a dedicated cargo hauler unattractive. I'm not sure what else benefits so much from the max cruise, though. Emergency response or high-value cargo, maybe?
The Feddie will always hit harder because of how phasers scale to ship mass

And at only 1x impulse thruster, its much less agile for its weight class
Which makes it both harder to aim its torpedoes, and makes it harder to dodge enemy torpedos and energy beam fire
That means its a much less effective combatant; genuinely surprised they cut costs there

Remember how Excaliburs used to body D7s at 2:1 and 3:1 odds? According to the War reports, the D7s had better shields and still got scragged. Thats what happens if a couple Mirandas fight a Feddie
Similarly a K'tinga murders it, and its at mortal risk from B'rel wolfpacks of around equivalent mass


Everything benefits from Max Cruise
That higher speed makes it a better border patroller because it can cover more space in a given time. A better emergency responder. A faster transport for scientists off to see a rare event. A better mail courier or secure transport for diplomats.

The ability to maintain a higher operational tempo is a qualitative advantage thats hard to quantify
if you only ever need to order 4 ships and they last for very long, and do what there supposed to do, is it truly a failure?
United Earth ordered 12x Sagamartas last century, each massing 290ktons
The Vulcans alone still operate 7x Kisharas, nominal weight 500,000 tons
I
My read of the brief for the Federation is that it's not supposed to built in large numbers. It's supposed to be an uncommon heavy vessel that when it shows up makes a huge impact- whether that's in combat, or in whatever its non-combat role ends up being. It's all very well having a bunch of lighter cruisers, and I won't deny the utility of those, but sometimes you really do need the big stick.
Nah, its meant to be mass produced in large numbers
Less than the Mirandas sure, but Starfleet has explicitly eschewed inexpensive light cruisers in the aftermath of the war and the grim losses of the Newtons(130kt) and Saladins(180kt) and smaller ships

Crews are expensive too, after all
We have two (E: forward) torpedo tubes and that's it. This is not going to be a torpedo ship regardless of what we pick for the phaser vote.
A Feddie with four tubes is 169 pts, with three tubes is 164 pts
Not really enough to economize on
Never going to be a torpedo boat, but still a vital element to its offense
 
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Starfleet Design Bureau Sci-Fi

Design starships from Enterprise onwards, dealing with production capabilities and internal layouts to meet the demands of Starfleet as Earth takes the galactic stage. With art!
Ah so type 1's since they said standard. And I guess no on the rapid launcher because those would quickly knock it over 80 unless you went small. Does mean problems trying to refit to the type 4 torpedo. For phasers I am unsure if the type 5s have any size difference or require any internal differences, though a Miranda-A refit design could include the type 5's and type 4s by making some changes to where things where and possibly cutting some module space

edit- where torpedos changed to type 6 for the new prototype? Could have sworn they were 4 and looking now it says 6
 
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Ah so type 1's since they said standard. And I guess no on the rapid launcher because those would quickly knock it over 80 unless you went small. Does mean problems trying to refit to the type 4 torpedo. For phasers I am unsure if the type 5s have any size difference or require any internal differences, though a Miranda-A refit design could include the type 5's and type 4s by making some changes to where things where and possibly cutting some module space

The phasers should be refittable, Sayle said that somewhere for ships like the Excalibur but I can't be bothered to look it up.

The torpedoes might require the loss of a module slot however. Feels like the perfect spot to introduce yet another Miranda variant(tm), the Miranda-P for more hostile border patrols. Or the size could go up slightly like the cannon Connie refits.

edit- where torpedos changed to type 6 for the new prototype? Could have sworn they were 4 and looking now it says 6

Everything is a work in progress, please stand by.


View: https://youtu.be/AcpoMr3Fcyg
 
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2251: Project Federation (Torpedoes)
[X] 10 Phaser Banks (Type V) [Damage 32] [100% Coverage] [Cost: 149]

The new phaser banks are installed at the edge of the saucer, where they will be able to provide coverage of the surrounding space. The newer models have higher power draws and an aggressively sharp 'buzzing' noise when they discharge compared to the higher pitch of the current standard, as well as an emission spectrum that leans firmly towards reddish orange. The design is certainly shaping up to have the heaviest punch yet with its phaser complement.

When it comes to torpedoes there haven't been any major innovations for some time, which makes the Mark IV a welcome change. The new torpedo has both a larger antimatter warhead and more efficiently shaped defensive fields that not only deflect fire but also focus the detonation towards the target. The disadvantage is the added expense as the production process is further refined and the larger footprint they demand in terms of mounting space.

Given the logistics involved with the new torpedo casings, not to mention different launcher components even between the rapid and standard tubes, there's no appetite in Command to accommodate two supply chains for what is effectively the same system. As a result your potential payloads are somewhat constrained.

Given the potent all-around coverage of the ship's phasers, your first option is to go light on the torpedoes. Two standard launchers for both fore and aft would provide a quick doubling of firepower every time the tubes cycled, as well as dissuading any chase-engagements from smaller and more maneuverable vessels.

The second option is to implement the new prototypes. The Mark IV needs a much larger launcher and is somewhat more expensive, so a dual launcher package facing forward would give you twice the firepower as standard torpedoes at a higher premium, effectively concentrating the cost of the full standard loadout into just the forward arc. You could then double up for another set pointing aft if you prefer a comprehensive armament.

Finally there are the rapid launchers, with two mounted forward providing a six-torpedo salvo that exceeds even that of the Excalibur-class. While expensive you may consider the sheer firepower to be a benefit. If leaving the rear arc unprotected causes concern, an additional launcher can be installed to fire aft.

[ ] Two Forward, Two Aft (Standard) [12/36 Damage] [Cost: 158]

[ ] Two Forward (Mark IV) [24/72 Damage] [Cost: 159]
[ ] Two Forward, One Aft (Mark IV) [24/72 Damage]/[12/36 Damage] [Cost: 164]
[ ] Two Forward, Two Aft (Mark IV) [24/72 Damage] [Cost: 169]

[ ] Two Forward (Rapid) [36/108 Damage] [Cost: 173]
[ ] Two Forward, One Aft (Rapid) [36/108 Damage]/[18/56 Damage] [Cost: 185]


Two Hour Moratorium, Please



ClassFederationMiranda
Design TeamUtopia PlanitiaSan Francisco
Mass300,000220,000
Cost--80
Single Target Rating3227
Multi-Target Rating3214
Maneuverability Rating150kt134kt
Max Sustained Damage3234
Alpha Strike Damage3258
Coverage100%73%
Engine PowerVery HighHigh
Hull Rating6447
Shield Rating7343
Engineering
Science
Efficient Cruise6.86
Maximum Cruise7.47
Maximum Warp87
Operational Range314216
 
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Oof, at least twice the cost of a Miranda but only equal combat power so far, the only real reason you'd want one of these over a Miranda is their greater range and speed.
 
Welp, this was a failure.

I say just bite the bullet and go either cheap or expensive for the torps, we will have to make it up with the modules.
 
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