Starfleet Design Bureau

[X] Rollbar Nacelle Supports (Aesthetic) [No Bonus/Malus]

Rollbars are cool, I'll give you that much.
Fhndamentally, the goal is a ship specifically designed for the combat role the Kea was forced into in fleet battles, that is also a good and useful cruiser the rest of the time.

When Starfleet starts classifying it as a dreadnaught, it's definitely failing at the latter and May, for lack of numbers, be starting to get a bit iffy on the former.
This is, broadly at least, the same position I believe in. If I really wanted to split hairs, I think I'd say something along the lines of "I don't think a battleship would outright fail at being useful the rest of the time...but it would definitely be less useful than the cruiser"...but for all intents and purposes, yeah, I agree.
The way a hypothetical Federation with more torpedoes deals with swarming is (A) it's not its job because I think very larger capital ships are not the best platforms for dealing with BoP swarms, and (B) basically exactly how it would if it had less torpedoes.
I agree with (B), but not (A); the Keas were so useful as line anchors for two reasons: beefy shields, and great phaser coverage for swarm-swatting. So I kinda think swarm-swatting is this thing's job- if the formation can maneuver to engage the enemy cruisers without enemy light combatants nipping at their heels, because the Feddie's phaser envelope is an all-round-or-close-to zone of death for said raider types, then it's doing its job correctly.
It seems impossible to me to justify why, on our 100+ Cost ship, the option to pay 10 Cost to increase our Alpha Strike and Single Target Damage by some significant double digit percentage is a bad cost-value proposition.
Basically, because (it is a popular opinion that) double-digit percentage increase in ST and α doesn't actually translate to a double-digit percentage in how much work the class will get done over the course of its service life. Pushing it from- pulling some numbers out of my ass here- "peer opponent for two K'Tingas" to "peer opponent for three K'Tingas" is only worth more than getting 10% more ships built if you expect to get jumped by three K'Tingas more than 10% of the time.

(Or, conceivably, if you're actually expecting a lot of all-out wars and expect to actually need the damn thing to anchor fleet engagements against enemy capital fleets [as per its design role] frequently- and most of us, while recognizing that that is the requested role and we do need to be competent at it, don't expect the design to actually find itself anchoring major fleet engagements at all.)

Otherwise, having 10% more hulls will mean getting 10% more patrolling and 10% more science and 10% more emergency-response and 10% more diplomacy and 10% more pirate-hunting done over the course of the next century- and also increases the odds that the fleet will be large enough to be worth designing and implementing a refit for, when the Warp 9 core and the next-gen torpedoes and phasers and shields and nacelles are all available, and maybe even again with the Warp 9.5 core.

(Also, I kinda think "enough to beat current- and next-gen enemy heavy cruisers" really is enough, because there just...aren't any enemy battleships that we're aware of.)
My contention isn't that single-target damage is useless- it's that there is no equivalent weight capital ship that needs the Federation to double down on single-target damage, and that we have capable single-target damage from other ships as a matter of course.
...I forget what specifically I was going to say when I added this to multiquote and so I'm just gonna say "I generally agree" and leave it at that. :whistle:
In terms of combat effectiveness for total ship cost as an added percentage, nothing can compete. Nothing.

That being said, I'm still going to go without.
Hang on, I know that's weird.
But [reasons snipped]
This is an insightful and genuinely interesting line of argument, and might well be compelling if I didn't already agree for slightly different reasons.
 
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So for full phaser coverage, were gonna want 7 phaser banks. Six covering the front and sides on both dorsal central sides and then one aft.

and then torpedo launchers. 2-3 forward, 1 aft.

So we at least can extrapolate cost from there.
 
It's important to keep in mind that the Federation's single target will only be used on K'tinga's for the foreseeable future. D6s, D7s, and all variants of Birds of Prey will be on Multi-target track due to size. Adding something that is only going to have a use case against one type of enemy in the foreseeable future. While one can make the argument that the additional Torpedos would help the Federation age more gracefully, the fact of the matter is we already did that with the dual engines for impulse. Aging gracefully requires the ship to be made in enough numbers to actually age, and a specialist ship designed for only war in a time with no war is at best going to get Saladin'd, which is not a goal to shoot for.


The Federation is not so wealthy that they can afford to give a ship this comparatively large the Defiant treatment, making a ship that would be great years later after immense amounts of work to make it so. While we can make arguments about Shields being for the design premise, and the Dual Impulse for not if but when one runs into a K'tinga, adding a massive amount of torps that are unlikely to be used against anything other than the bleeding edge Klingon Capital ship design when they have demonstrated a noted deficiency in keeping up with our industrial and technological pace once they've burned their stockpiles isn't going to pass muster.



So for full phaser coverage, were gonna want 7 phaser banks. Six covering the front and sides on both dorsal central sides and then one aft.

and then torpedo launchers. 2-3 forward, 1 aft.

So we at least can extrapolate cost from there.
Big question is if we're going to give the forward torps the Excalibur treatment, or if we're going to go CRAAAAAAAAAAZY and give 2 RFLs. And of course, are we doing 1 rear torp tube, 2 rear, or just a RFL and call it a day.
 
[X] Rollbar Nacelle Supports (Aesthetic) [No Bonus/Malus]

The "Deluxe Rollbar Nacelle Supports" would definitely work as a way to cram more weapons on a smaller ship.
 
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[X] Rollbar Nacelle Supports (+2 Fore/Aft Torpedo Mounts)

More torpedo mounts means we can mount more, cheaper torpedoes which are inherently more cost-efficient. Thus adding more Torpedo mounts actually saves us money because we can use single launchers instead of the RFLs that pack 3x mounts' worth of firepower for 4x the cost.
 
Remember we really want strategic mineral survey as part of our suite.
Surveying is one part of improving Starfleet's resource budget, but colony support missions are important for actually developing them, and diplomatic missions are useful for untangling snarls and bringing developed systems into the Federation.

Further, the previous design we did included this:
The advantages proved so useful to planetary surveys that a four-ship run of the Atwater-class was spun off the Attenborough spaceframe, specialising in geophysics rather than plant biology.

So if we did go in on a surveying mission profile, it'd be best to focus on rather short term efforts, as the Atwater-class is going to be a better fit to the long-term surveying niche.
 
This argument makes very little sense. The Fed is never going to be built in large numbers because its expense already outstrips the Excalibur and we haven't even touched the tactical systems yet. If the Federation wants a workhorse to fill the gap they're going to build the Miranda, which is smaller and can be built more quickly. We can assume the Miranda's armament from canon:

-effectively eight phaser banks, and four torpedo launchers (the forward mounts of which in this version are probably either RFLs or the new Type-4s).


Assuming the Type-4, that gives the Miranda an alpha strike (one phaser bank and both launchers) of 90 (Type-2 phasers) or 96 (Type-5s), which is 80 percent of the Excalibur's and still sufficient - unless their hull plating is literally twice as good as ours - of evaporating a D7 in a single volley. The K't'inga is bigger and tougher than the D7, but unless its shields are inexplicably three times stronger that alpha strike will still collapse its shields and do noticeable damage to the hull.

Simply put, this ship at this point is never going to take the role of 'primary line vessel of the era' from the Miranda. This is not to say that there isn't utility in it, but the possibility of supplanting what may have been the single most successful design Starfleet ever produced was lost a while ago.
Those are not equivaent benchmarks, you know?
In the same Memory Alpha article from which you make the assumptions about Miranda armament?
The canon Miranda massed 655,000 tons.

Thats more than twice the mass of this Federation-class design.
Bigger than the 500,000 ton Kishara-class heavy explorer that the Vulcans operate
Its literally bigger than anything we have ever built in this quest. Its got weapons we havent even developed
Memory Alpha Miranda Article said:
The following specifications and defenses for the class were established in the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual:


  • Production Base: ASDB Integration Facility, Starbase 134 Integration Facility, Rigel VI.
  • Type: Medium Cruiser.
  • Accommodation: 220 officers and crew; 500 personal evacuation limit.
  • Power Plant: One 1,500 plus Cochrane warp core feeding two nacelles; one impulse system.
  • Dimensions: Length, 277.76 meters; beam, 173.98 meters; height, 65.23 meters.
  • Mass: 655,000 metric tons.
  • Performance: Warp 9.2 for 12 hours.
  • Armament: Six type-7 phaser emitters; two pulse phaser cannons; two photon torpedo launchers.
It also appears to have entered service in the 2260s, a full decade after this TLs Miranda is supposed to enter service
And its a Warp 9 ship

Over here in this timeline a ship that size would be a superdreadnought-class fleetkiller that would secure Federation supremacy for a generation
In canon, its an affordable medium cruiser

I dont know what this timeline's Miranda will look like, but I am reasonably sure it will look nothing like canon
Which makes your assertions about how Starfleet procurement policy will pan out questionable at best


EDIT
Just to be clear, if San Fran somehow produced an almost 700 kiloton, Warp 9 fleetkiller for the price of an affordable cruiser in the year 2255, I would be advising Starfleet to buy as many as they could
:V
 
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if we did go in on a surveying mission profile, it'd be best to focus on rather short term efforts, as the Atwater-class is going to be a better fit to the long-term surveying niche.
Different kind of survey, they're talking dilithium prospecting - which the Keas no longer have and the only ships that do still have it are kinda death traps (the Saladin's).

If we find dilithium in an area the Darwin goes in to find the best place to put a colony to claim it.
 
Surveying is one part of improving Starfleet's resource budget, but colony support missions are important for actually developing them, and diplomatic missions are useful for untangling snarls and bringing developed systems into the Federation.

Further, the previous design we did included this:


So if we did go in on a surveying mission profile, it'd be best to focus on rather short term efforts, as the Atwater-class is going to be a better fit to the long-term surveying niche.
Anything and everything to increase our supply of strategic minerals. Actually finding them is the major milestone. The Atwater subclass may be better but there is only 4, we need every ship we can possibly have looking for them.
 
Space-Whale Milking Equipment, CHECK!

The Federation/Errantry class will be big enough to be mistaken for a space-whale calf, rather than a being treated like a parasite like a smaller ship would be. 🐳
 
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So for full phaser coverage, were gonna want 7 phaser banks. Six covering the front and sides on both dorsal central sides and then one aft.

and then torpedo launchers. 2-3 forward, 1 aft.

So we at least can extrapolate cost from there.
Full coverage is eight phaser banks ; in the rear you'd want ventral and dorsal coverage as well
Thats forty points with the prototype phasers
Three or four prototype torpedoes(2 forward, 1-2 aft) costs another fifteen or twenty points

Thats a total of fifty five to sixty points for the weapons suite
 
Anything and everything to increase our supply of strategic minerals. Actually finding them is the major milestone. The Atwater subclass may be better but there is only 4, we need every ship we can possibly have looking for them.
An Atwater also can't tell a Klingon D7 to GTFO if it's surveying contested territory whereas a Federation class can (assuming the scaled up Type-V does 32 damage it can straight up delete a D7's shields and scorch it's hull in a single hit) and should be able to make a K'tinga question if it's feeling lucky.

Edit:
32 damage is a very significant threshold as a Current Gen Klingon Bird of Prey only has 12 shields so unless the BoP's hull is significantly stronger than it's shields a direct hit from a 300kt Type-V should evaporate it.

Even the Next Gen BoP would probably struggle to survive it as even the 120kt D7 only has 30 Shields so I doubt that the 60kt B'rel is going to outshield a D7.
D7 Heavy Cruiser [Active Production]
Mass: 120,000 Tons
Maneuverability: 120,000 Tons (Standard)
Armament: 2 Heavy Disruptor Beams, 1 Plasma Torpedo Launcher
Shield Rating: 30
Cruise: Warp 7
Maximum: Warp 8.2
Estimated Cost: 60

...

B'rel Bird-of-Prey [Development]
Mass: 60,000 Tons
Maneuverability: ?
Armament: 2 Disruptor Cannons, ? Torpedo Launcher
Shield Rating: ?
Cruise: ?
Maximum: ?
Estimated Cost: 40-55

Bird-of-Prey [Active Production]
Mass: 30,000 Tons
Maneuverability: 15,000 Tons (Very High)
Armament: 2 Light Disruptor Beams, 1 Photon Torpedo Launcher
Shield Rating: 12
Cruise: Warp 6
Maximum: Warp 7.2
Estimated Cost: 24
 
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Look I'm going to be honest, ifbit wasn't for the text saying taking more torpedo slots would move this to battleship/dreadnought category, I'd take the more slots. Yes, this ship is already at the point where it is very expensive for a common line cruiser, but it still could meet the role. I wouldn't mind the federation deciding epxensive ships are more okay. But if we go this extra mile, that's just too far. We need to at least try to meet our design goals.
Just because people picked the very expensive expensive options does not mean they aren't trying to make a cruiser. We are just trying to make the best cruiser even if expensive. The federation even mentioned not minding price for capabilities. But there is a difference between that and saying, " this will make it classified as a dreadnought". I want to at least make it pay lip service to the requirements.
 
Different kind of survey, they're talking dilithium prospecting - which the Keas no longer have and the only ships that do still have it are kinda death traps (the Saladin's).

If we find dilithium in an area the Darwin goes in to find the best place to put a colony to claim it.
Which would tend to be a shorter term thing, so I'm glad we're on the same page about what the focus should be if surveying is picked. It wasn't necessarily obvious, and this thread is kinda awful about clarity of communication, so I wanted to make sure.
 
In the same Memory Alpha article from which you make the assumptions about Miranda armament?
The canon Miranda massed 655,000 tons.
Thats more than twice the mass of this Federation-class design.
Bigger than the 500,000 ton Kishara-class heavy explorer
The mass figures may not match up, but Sayle is clearly using matching tactical systems.
The canon Constitution mounted three ventral phaser banks, a rapid-fire launcher, and nothing else. Some models had an aft torpedo launcher and aft phaser, but it's not a lot. It was not an expansively armed ship at all until the 2270 refit.
Broadly, anyway. Six phaser emitters maps 1:1 to three arrays (sets of 2 emitters each), and Sayle technically upgunned the torpedoes.

So, yeah. I'm pretty confident in my assumptions about how much the Miranda will be packing.
 
An Atwater also can't tell a Klingon D7 to GTFO if it's surveying contested territory whereas a Federation class can (assuming the scaled up Type-V does 32 damage it can straight up delete a D7's shields and scorch it's hull in a single hit) and should be able to make a K'tinga question if it's feeling lucky.

Edit:
32 damage is a very significant threshold as a Current Gen Klingon Bird of Prey only has 12 shields so unless the BoP's hull is significantly stronger than it's shields a direct hit from a 300kt Type-V should evaporate a it.

Even the Next Gen BoP would probably struggle to survive it as even the 120kt D7 only has 30 Shields so I doubt that the 60kt B'rel is going to outshield a D7.
Im going to caution against this line of thinking
Do note that the Klingons are just as capable of refitting their ships with new tech as we are, and remain somewhat ahead of us in the relevant military fields; for example, their heavy shields are about 70% more powerful than ours
 
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