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We have to many colonies, not enough resources, so get more resources and the colonies can exploit those new resources, instead of sitting there becoming a resource sink as they get bigger without any actual resources to exploit and process.
Without those resources colonies just sit there doing nothing but gain more population and demand more resources to get bigger, we get more resources then the colonies can get bigger as well as sell or donate those resources they dont need or just donate to starfleet as a tax so we can make more starships, more starships= finding more resources, more resources=more ships.
Instead of making 5-10 starships in decades we can get triple that when we have more resources thrown at us. Expanding the fleet= we can build bigger more expensive ships instead of tiny ones that last for 50 years and only ever have 20 of them active and rapidly becoming outdated as we scramble to fill starfleet needs with tiny amounts of ships in the dozens rather then hundreds.
I want to make interesting ships without having to worry about starfleet barely able to patrol our own territory as we dont have the ships, because resources arent trickling in fast enough to make large numbers of starships because starfleet apparently content to keep us struggling patrolling our own boarders.
Strunkriidiisk
THE LEGEND
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Which is why I keep saying to go for Pharmacology, which none of our pre-existing ships have. It will in fact be fulfilling a niche that has not been covered by a mobile platform.
Practically speaking, no ship we build (with the possible exception of explorers and pseudo-explorers like the Excalibur) is going to be on constant duty without any sort of downtime for more than six months. Regardless of how nice the ship is, the crew is going to want periods of shore leave to do stuff like breathe non-recycled air, eat entire meals' worth of fresh food, find new books or other media to keep themselves entertained on the ship, and generally relieve cabin fever. Aside from that, there are also times when the ship will need to be undergoing repairs that cannot be performed in-flight, or needs to wait somewhere specific to take on new people for whatever reason (closest ship able to transport a dignitary, replacing the latest gaggle of redshirts that got Got, taking a team of specialists somewhere, that sort of thing). Will all of these circumstances be suitable for the ship to also refuel during them? No, but by the same token it's not that None of these situations allow the ship to top its antimatter up. We have a giant network of Pharos stations for a reason.
On an unrelated note: before anyone else catastrophizes further about the rate of loss on peacetime Excalibur missions, keep in mind that those 5 Excaliburs map one-to-one with the canon 5 Constitutions that got Got, down to the circumstances. And the Connie had one grade better science than the Callie does. Chill out, the Callies are performing to expectations.
The problem with this is that torpedoes require antimatter and antimatter requires a warp core. Shuttles in this era are fusion powered. You cannot build a shuttle that can fire a torpedo and ships are not yet so large that it becomes practical to carry a shuttle with a warp core, nor would Starfleet spend dilithium to build a shuttle with a warp core when they could build another starcraft.
I would assume that this calclus changes in later Trek because dilithium reprocessing becomes a thing and suddenly the Federation gets free of the resource Red Queen's Race that every starfaring race in Trek falls into, having to spend dilithium to get dilithium.
Free from the chain of needing to expend dilithium to run warp cores and being unable to recover it it makes sense to throw a warp core in everything.
On a different note, I decided to try and figure out how big the design could have gone if everything was pushed more to the max.
Based on this design the secondary hull size compared to the saucer was, hmm. 140 kton for saucer and 80 kt for the secondary hull I guess, so 80/140=0.57~
Using this factor on the largest saucer type available that would be 190*1.57=298. So basically 300.000 tons for saucer and secondary hull, and then presumably something like 40 kton to 80 kton for the nacelles. So up to 380 kton was presumably maximally possibly in this design cycle, assuming no further surprises in the rest of the design process.
So a fair bit of space to the top still, and considering we could have taken much smaller saucers designs as well, it was in principle possible to make a ship substantially smaller then the Kea as well I believe. Which is quite interesting and implies we had a lot of real design space given. What ever one thought would fit the brief best I guess.
Based on this design the secondary hull size compared to the saucer was, hmm. 140 kton for saucer and 80 kt for the secondary hull I guess, so 80/140=0.57~
Using this factor on the largest saucer type available that would be 190*1.57=298. So basically 300.000 tons for saucer and secondary hull, and then presumably something like 40 kton to 80 kton for the nacelles. So up to 380 kton was presumably maximally possibly in this design cycle, assuming no further surprises in the rest of the design process.
So a fair bit of space to the top still, and considering we could have taken much smaller saucers designs as well, it was in principle possible to make a ship substantially smaller then the Kea as well I believe. Which is quite interesting and implies we had a lot of real design space given. What ever one thought would fit the brief best I guess.
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[X] Conventional Secondary Hull (Mass: 220kt) [Cost: 55.5)
You don't need a warp core to store antimatter. You can do it without dilithium. The torpedoes would be pre-packaged, and 'hot loaded' into the shuttles, dangerous on board a shuttle, suicidal on a starship. Bu it might be possible to do.
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
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[X] Conventional Secondary Hull (Mass: 220kt) [Cost: 55.5)
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thing is shuttles have to dock in a hanger on a starship, so its still storing hot loaded torpedoes on a starship.
KlavoHunter
THOU SHALT WORSHIP NO GODS ABOVE ENTERPRISE!
Better than canon, actually. USS Constallation's counterpart dabbed on the Planet Killer!
The torpedoes are loaded/energized on the flight deck itself, so they're only 'stored' until the attack craft launch.
Strunkriidiisk
THE LEGEND
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All right, say you do that, and you also convince/coerce someone to fly the resulting deathtrap. Where are you fitting the firing mechanism - shuttles aren't that big.
And even if that all works out, how do you make it a viable tactic? Because frankly, if a larger ship gets hit with a shuttle-launched torpedo it's not often going to be a killing blow on its own, and return fire is going to evaporate the shuttle before it can reload, if that's even possible.
My understanding is that the only safe place an energized torpedo can be stored is in the launcher that is as big as a standard shuttle, and even then not for long.
A torpedo isn't armed before combat and fired. It's armed moments before it is fired because they are so dangerous that no other method is acceptable.
It may be technically possible, but it's "some had an oops in the shuttlebay, your entire starship and all hands are lost" levels of dangerous. That is the expected outcome of a photon torpedo exploding inside your hull and setting off the other armed photon torpedoes.
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im team flight deck but this just makes the option look bad
trek doesn't have fighters and the option doesn't mention tactical benefits
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The root problem with any desires for torpedo bombers or fleet refuelers is that there's all indications that the Federation does not skimp on antimatter safety.
Antimatter is horribly dangerous and fail-deadly by default, and as such is stored only in highly specialized pods that are fairly large and complicated. It can't be transported by transporter or shuttle, only by dedicated antimatter-handling equipment that requires a direct physical connection. And for the last time they absolutely will not leave it lying around in a standard cargo bay since that's asking for your ship to get blown up when some redshirt trips over it.
Torpedoes deliberately make the storage problem even worse, and as such are not stored ready to fire. Only the torpedo launcher itself is rated to hold an energized torpedo.
Antimatter is horribly dangerous and fail-deadly by default, and as such is stored only in highly specialized pods that are fairly large and complicated. It can't be transported by transporter or shuttle, only by dedicated antimatter-handling equipment that requires a direct physical connection. And for the last time they absolutely will not leave it lying around in a standard cargo bay since that's asking for your ship to get blown up when some redshirt trips over it.
Torpedoes deliberately make the storage problem even worse, and as such are not stored ready to fire. Only the torpedo launcher itself is rated to hold an energized torpedo.
Trek doesn't have fighters, but Star Fleet Battles does have fighters. I'm voting because it's a meager meme, but it's a meme.
Well, fleet tenders exist, but they are dedicated ships that are not warships because they would be insane to put anywhere near actual weapons fire. We know the Klingons used them to strike so deep in our backyard.
They are just civilian ships and Starfleet, when it needs them, likely has them somewhere, likely running rounds refueling antimatter using installations not mobile enough to get to a refueling station.
I imagine the standing policy of EVERY crew of a ship that's a giant balloon of antimatter is to surrender the moment someone asks politely because anyone with a half powered phaser can blow up you and a significant section of your local system.
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It's not as if flight deck is going to win now anyway, but I voted for it because shuttles consistently give good engineering points to ships, and it'd probably synergise pretty well with stuff like dilithium prospecting. Warp into a system, vomit out two dozen shuttles to go trawl its asteroid belts, that kind of thing. Post battle salvage and recovery too.
The idea of them being applicable in combat was never going to fly, pun unintended.
The idea of them being applicable in combat was never going to fly, pun unintended.
I mean, this is exactly why the huge shuttlebay WOULD be a great thing... if it didn't reduce the tactical value of the ship when tactical value is the topline on the tender.
I think turning the next ship we build into a dilithium prospector with lots of shuttle would be really useful.
Not mediocre, below average:
While some factors like crew comfort are unlikely to vary much over time, most of them are a moving target. The S of the Excelsior when it launched is a B today, for example. The A of a refit NX-class is a D today.
D is a disaster in that area. Half the ship wants to fly apart at the seams, sourcing materials for it is difficult or there's zero overlap in existing production, the phasers couldn't tickle a fly, it can barely tell you anything about something until you're right next to it, the crew are in bunks and even the captain lives in a broom closet.
C is below average. It's fiddly and temperamental to maintain or produce, the weapons are serviceable but really shouldn't go up against anything designed to fire back, it can perform science semi-competently but you won't be making any breakthroughs. The officers have decent quarters, everyone else has bunks.
B is middle-of-the-road. Whatever that category is, the ship can pull its weight. It isn't difficult to keep running, it isn't difficult to build. It can take a hit and shoot back. It can do some innovative science if it finds something sufficiently interesting. The crew have rooms to do more than sleep in.
A is high-end. The ship runs like a dream, or it's very easy to produce in bulk. Other powers would probably say it has the armaments of warship. It has systems modern enough to do some cutting-edge science, and plenty of options to choose from. The crew has their own individual rooms.
S is as good as it could possibly be. The ship could sit abandoned in space for fifty years and start running again when you press the power button. Starfleet can pump them out as fast as Naussican can lose at dom-jot. It doesn't have the weapons of a warship, it is a warship and can give anyone else a run for their money. It has a vast array of scientific instruments that can catalogue everything under the sun and probably enough experts enticed to work there to write a thesis or two on their findings while on the job. The crew all have officer-grade rooms with private amenities like sonic showers and personal replicators.
The Sovereign-class would probably be a B-C-S-B-B. Not much more highly scoring than the Renaissance and worse in the ease of production category. But it's a damn good combat ship and that's what she was mainly designed to do. Meanwhile the Galaxy would definitely have an S in comfort and science, but it might rate a D in ease of production or a C in maintenance.
D is a disaster in that area. Half the ship wants to fly apart at the seams, sourcing materials for it is difficult or there's zero overlap in existing production, the phasers couldn't tickle a fly, it can barely tell you anything about something until you're right next to it, the crew are in bunks and even the captain lives in a broom closet.
C is below average. It's fiddly and temperamental to maintain or produce, the weapons are serviceable but really shouldn't go up against anything designed to fire back, it can perform science semi-competently but you won't be making any breakthroughs. The officers have decent quarters, everyone else has bunks.
B is middle-of-the-road. Whatever that category is, the ship can pull its weight. It isn't difficult to keep running, it isn't difficult to build. It can take a hit and shoot back. It can do some innovative science if it finds something sufficiently interesting. The crew have rooms to do more than sleep in.
A is high-end. The ship runs like a dream, or it's very easy to produce in bulk. Other powers would probably say it has the armaments of warship. It has systems modern enough to do some cutting-edge science, and plenty of options to choose from. The crew has their own individual rooms.
S is as good as it could possibly be. The ship could sit abandoned in space for fifty years and start running again when you press the power button. Starfleet can pump them out as fast as Naussican can lose at dom-jot. It doesn't have the weapons of a warship, it is a warship and can give anyone else a run for their money. It has a vast array of scientific instruments that can catalogue everything under the sun and probably enough experts enticed to work there to write a thesis or two on their findings while on the job. The crew all have officer-grade rooms with private amenities like sonic showers and personal replicators.
The Sovereign-class would probably be a B-C-S-B-B. Not much more highly scoring than the Renaissance and worse in the ease of production category. But it's a damn good combat ship and that's what she was mainly designed to do. Meanwhile the Galaxy would definitely have an S in comfort and science, but it might rate a D in ease of production or a C in maintenance.
And its been two decades since it was designed, with no technological refits since then
Thank you for the citation
I remembered the Excalibur lost during raiding, but forgot about the Clarent at Pharos Seven and the Kusanagi going missing
However, I think you're mistaken about the Joyeuse
The retrospective says the Joyeuse was restored to its 2240s condition and ended up in a museum
So wartime losses are 3 ships to the 5 ships lost in the 2250 Pathfinder missions
Regardless, since we know that they were refit, that means there were enough surviving hulls to make that a reasonable expense
Point of correction: I do not want a science ship, I did not ask for a science ship and neither did Starfleet
I want a multirole tactical cruiser thats competent at science; something better than the Excalibur at non-combat roles while being tankier and close to the same punch. Id be happy with a solid B in Science, and thrilled with an A
We dont get a new explorer design for another two decades, minimum; something has to pinch hit until then
With less attrition than the Callies
I strong disagree with you, and I'v posted my sources
And I disagree with your characterization of the roles of Science/Engineering/Tactical to Starfleet, and to the Federation in general as well; for one thing, your entire thesis doesnt account for the fact that the Federation has an entire sector of civilian engineering to handle non time-critical, non-military engineering and logistics duties
As for build numbers?
Go take a gander at the number of ship classes being decommissioned in the next ten years
We need 70ish ships
Ive done the math on this before
We have to replace three entire classes of ship in the next ten years, between 2245 and 2255
Thats 78 hulls just to attempt to get back to pre-war numbers in the next decade
Archduke
Don't Take Geology Puns For Granite
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I do like leaning into the diplomatic mission a bit. I'd also love to see a module for a small "park" to give the crew a bit of a nice feature. If we go with the Federation Member World naming scheme, you could also use flora from that world on their named ship. I kinda want to move away from the human centric naming schemes we've been using.
Anyways, on the flight deck thing: that speed trade off is too much. The cruise we have is great, but this is still a warship and isn't garunteed to always be operating in its "ideal" role of fleet anchor, so we still need to make sure it's capable of choosing its fights if the situation requires it.
Anyways, on the flight deck thing: that speed trade off is too much. The cruise we have is great, but this is still a warship and isn't garunteed to always be operating in its "ideal" role of fleet anchor, so we still need to make sure it's capable of choosing its fights if the situation requires it.
Take a section of the saucer. Build a park on the top level. Replace the hull plating with transparent aluminum so the flat roof is transparent. It isn't quite a glass dome, but you can relax on the grass under the stars.
TheShadowDeamon
Mighty Dragon
It would also work well with the new Archer Class when we build it.