Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
A fair bit, mostly from locals, Barak Varr, and Karak Azul.
Have any of the local kids taken to spending time there with the nice spiders?

Also what do the rumors and stories of the library focus on? Like I can imagine them getting pretty wild for obvious reasons.

Although now I am imagining a We off-shoot that is taken in by the Amber Wizards and inhabits some kind of forest or something around where their college technically is where it acts as the equivalent of their clerk/accountant/general record keeper.
 
So, potentially hot take, but...maybe we let scholars make the trip to the library and make whatever translations they want themselves? We've already sent a letter to the Grey College asking to let whoever has the clearance for it know about the new books in our library, it might be better for our library if scholars actually had to make the trip to it for the books.
Given that the words "Grey College" and "secrets" were used and came right after the paragraph on Old Ones lore, I think they're only telling specific people about Old Ones lore. Advertising our collection of botany lore doesn't sound like the kind of thing they'd do.

And besides which, the books are in Eltharin. If we want wide distribution, translating them into Reikspiel (or Bretonnian, given the Cult's seat) is the best way to proliferate the knowledge. EDIT: The purpose of the translations is to help others, not our library.

Apart from being referred to as the father of the Asur collectively (hence the name), no.
@Boney is "father" something you went with yourself or do you have a source for it? I'm only aware of him being called "creator" of the elves.

Her sister, who in canon was a Necromancer and in this story got inducted into the Jades, has the same surname.
...Huh.
 
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The Library of Mournings is more than twice the age of the White Tower. Possessing older books too iirc.

I have a hard time believing that if the Asur possessed such knowledge, like a Saurian lexicon, it wouldn't also be here.

Especially as most of your arguments come down to "well the Asur have had more time and they haven't figured it out" (especially regarding to Saurian).
The books included in the White Tower did not come into existence when Bel-Korhadris commissioned it, or finished it. The accumulated knowledge of Ulthuan was gathered into it. That knowledge had been damaged by the Sundering, but not erased. Note how Ulthuan retains the capability to repurpose Old One monoliths to turn into nexuses and that Laurelorn never had. It is self evident that Ulthuan knows a lot about the Old Ones that Laurelorn never discovered.

The Library of Mournings was built in a colony on the outskirts of Asur society and then was cut off from the outside world for four thousand years. Sarvoi mentioned that Ulthuan kept information about the Waystone Network from the colonies. Eltharion implied the Inner Kingdoms keep knowledge from the Outer Kingdoms. Why would they have shared everything with Laurelorn? That lack of sharing does not describe the White Tower. The White Tower was build to contain every piece of knowledge in the entire world, not limiting itself to Ulthuan.

It is entirely possible that Ulthuan only decoded Saurian in the past four millennia. It is entirely possible that it was deciphered upon Bel-Korhadris's efforts to unify the knowledge base of Ulthuan. Ulthuan has had a lot more time to access and collate samples of Saurian. It is entirely possible Ulthuan kept the translation guide to itself during the Golden Age. It is possible that Laurelorn has it, but didn't share it. Mathilde also would not know to look for Saurian. Boney said that discovering the connection between the Lizardmen and the Old Ones would have to be earned.

My arguments boil down to the notion that if the organization that is in an infinitely better position to decode the language of the Old Ones has not, then Mathilde will certainly not accomplish what they failed to do. You have yet to point out anything that detracts from that point.
 
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Speaking of ancient knowledge, I think it's time we started to invest in Nehekhara stuff.
The Nehekharan Pantheon +0
The Mortuary Cult +0
The Lore of Nehekhara +0
Nehekharan War-Statuary +0
It's a big gap in the library that's taunting me. I can't remember though if we can buy them through the collages or if we have to buy it through Barak Varr.
The Colleges have Imperial +5s for all four.
Barak Varr has Dwarf (and only Dwarf - Imperial is College-only on this) for Pantheon and War Statuary.

As War Statuary is probably a bit into the weeds, that can be subbed out for something else. On a College purchase, that could be Liminal Pathways, or possibly up our Prophecy set from Extensive to Esoteric, or polish off one of our four non-maxed Winds sections if you want to chip away at those one at a time rather than go for all four at once down the line.
 
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The books included in the White Tower did not come into existence when Bel-Korhadris commissioned it, or finished it. The accumulated knowledge of Ulthuan was gathered into it. That knowledge had been damaged by the Sundering, but not erased. Note how Ulthuan retains the capability to repurpose Old One monoliths to turn into nexuses and that Laurelorn never had. It is self evident that Ulthuan knows a lot about the Old Ones that Laurelorn never discovered.

The Library of Mournings was built in a colony on the outskirts of Asur society and then was cut off from the outside world for four thousand years. Sarvoi mentioned that Ulthuan kept information about the Waystone Network from the colonies. Eltharion implied the Inner Kingdoms keep knowledge from the Outer Kingdoms. Why would they have shared everything with Laurelorn? That lack of sharing does not describe the White Tower. The White Tower was build to contain every piece of knowledge in the entire world, not limiting itself to Ulthuan.

It is entirely possible that Ulthuan only decoded Saurian in the past four millennia. It is entirely possible that it was deciphered upon Bel-Korhadris's efforts to unify the knowledge base of Ulthuan. Ulthuan has had a lot more time to access and collate samples of Saurian. It is entirely possible Ulthuan kept the translation guide to itself during the Golden Age. It is possible that Laurelorn has it, but didn't share it. Mathilde also would not know to look for Saurian. Boney said that discovering the connection between the Lizardmen and the Old Ones would have to be earned.

My arguments boil down to the notion that if the organization that is in an infinitely better position to decode the language of the Old Ones has not, then Mathilde will certainly not accomplish what they failed to do. You have yet to point out anything that detracts from that point.

I am a bit lost at what to tell you. You're talking in absolutes when you're just speculating with a lot of information.

It may be the case that the White Tower has decided the Old Ones language.

It's entirely possible that they have not decoded Saurian.

It's entirely possible they do not, in fact, have knowledge of Arcane Khazalid.


Yet you're taking all of those as absolutes, that the White Tower has decoded Saurian, that White Tower has Arcane Khazalid and that despite that the White Tower has failed to decode the Old Ones Language.

I do not think the Asur have a Saurian Lexicon, if only for the simple fact that if Skaven was indecipherable to Dwarven despite trying for thousands of years and failing.

In the same vein I do not think Asur know Arcane Khazalid, at least currently. In fact I believe if they knew it must have been from where the Dwarven and Asur actually got along and if so Malekith would have used it to somehow make another war between the two nations to weak Ulthuan.
 
I am a bit surprised that the Eonir don't have their own writings on Theology, Agriculture and Medicine.

I think Agriculture most of all. They had to feed the Cityborn with very different "farmland" compared to what Ulthuan or the Elven transcontinental empire had available.

It's a forest. You think people from Chrace or Avelorn didn't already know how to get food from a forest?

As for Theology, do underpinnings for Mandala positioning and such fall under this category? Or would writings on such things be under something else?

Changes to the mandalas don't happen often enough for there to be a bevy of writings on the subject.

Even compared to anyone who is not Asur? I.e. anyone else we might have philosophy books from? If anything it might be easier to digest and compare to native works on the subjects than whatever the Asur do when they layer linguistics on ancient philosophy and divine relativism and fragmentary Old One teachings.

Ironically, this is not a matter that is open for debate.

Have any of the local kids taken to spending time there with the nice spiders?

Also what do the rumors and stories of the library focus on? Like I can imagine them getting pretty wild for obvious reasons.

Although now I am imagining a We off-shoot that is taken in by the Amber Wizards and inhabits some kind of forest or something around where their college technically is where it acts as the equivalent of their clerk/accountant/general record keeper.

This seems more like the sort of thing for apocrypha to address, rather than questions for the QM.

@Boney is "father" something you went with yourself or do you have a source for it? I'm only aware of him being called "creator" of the elves.

2e WFRP corebook:
"Asuryan, Father of the Gods: He is the oldest and greatest of the Elven Gods and is said to be the ancestor of all living things."
 
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Foolish Mathilde, thinking order could be imposed on The Stacks with merely a kingdoms worth of money. When not even God( Boney) can do that.
 
I am a bit lost at what to tell you. You're talking in absolutes when you're just speculating with a lot of information.

It may be the case that the White Tower has decided the Old Ones language.

It's entirely possible that they have not decoded Saurian.

It's entirely possible they do not, in fact, have knowledge of Arcane Khazalid.


Yet you're taking all of those as absolutes, that the White Tower has decoded Saurian, that White Tower has Arcane Khazalid and that despite that the White Tower has failed to decode the Old Ones Language.

I do not think the Asur have a Saurian Lexicon, if only for the simple fact that if Skaven was indecipherable to Dwarven despite trying for thousands of years and failing.

In the same vein I do not think Asur know Arcane Khazalid, at least currently. In fact I believe if they knew it must have been from where the Dwarven and Asur actually got along and if so Malekith would have used it to somehow make another war between the two nations to weak Ulthuan.
Yes, it is possible they didn't retain knowledge of Arcane Khazalid. I think that's unlikely because a lot of people who knew the language would have lived in the Old World and been unaffected by the Sundering. Because you know, that's where you can collaborate with Dwarfs the best. The War of the Beard would have fucked a lot of them over, but the Dwarf's increasing extermination efforts would have incentivized many to share knowledge about Runesmithing to better contribute to the fighting against deployments of Runecraft. Those who knew a lot about runesmithing ended up getting evacuated to Ulthuan. It is possible, but unlikely.

You should note that I have expressed a lot of uncertainty about whether it is confirmed that the White Tower can translate Saurian. That is because I'm still not clear on which language that the Sacred Plaques are carved in. It's either they are written in Saurian, or they are written in the script of the Old Ones. Morelian's description of the language matches Boney's description of the Old One scrolls a lot more than 4th Edition's Saurian. Boney has read at least part of the trilogy.

Ulthuan has had four thousand years more years than Laurelorn to find more examples of both Old One and Saurian script. And the White Tower has driven Ulthuan to accumulate all knowledge unto itself for two thousand years. It has a lot of incentive to translate it.

Why would it? Dwarfs already know that elves are untrustworthy. They know for sure that they taught elves it back in the day, before they proved their perfidiousness. The revelation that it was shared outside the apprenticeship line would shock nobody. And could cause zero wars because Ulthuan retreated from the Old World and still rules the waves. Tale of Metal possesses infinitely more ability to spark wars than confirming something Runesmiths would already grumble about.
 
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Ulthuan has had four thousand years more years than Laurelorn to find more examples of both Old One and Saurian script. And the White Tower has driven Ulthuan to accumulate all knowledge unto itself for two thousand years. It has a lot of incentive to translate it.
I mean, I assume they have translated it. I just don't think they're going to share that any time soon, and so if we want the Colleges to have access, we either do it ourself or wait until some NPC tackles the problem (which will probably not be in quest scope).
 
Trickery, illusion, asymmetrical warfare, the protection of homeland. Not all those who wander are lost, but if you are, Ladrielle might point you in the right direction - which might not necessarily be the direction you thought you wanted to go in. If the ones wandering are enemies, intercession more commonly comes in the form of something sharp and metallic to somewhere soft and vulnerable.
Oh, so it's the really obvious daughter that took us way longer to figure out. Figures.
 
Foolish Mathilde, thinking order could be imposed on The Stacks with merely a kingdoms worth of money. When not even God( Boney) can do that.
Clearly, the solution to this is to simply bring the Eonir writings on sports and arts to her penthouse and put it next to her books on romance and stuff. We do have a room that was used for Mathilde's library, and with KAU's existence I recall there being some talk about how we might need to replace it at some point.

Win-win. KAU doesn't have to suffer The Stacks and Mathilde can enjoy writings on WWE and possibly the equivalent of elves arguing on a non-internet forum.
 
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Yes, it is possible they didn't retain knowledge of Arcane Khazalid. I think that's unlikely because a lot of people who knew the language would have lived in the Old World and been unaffected by the Sundering. Because you know, that's where you can collaborate with Dwarfs the best. The War of the Beard would have fucked a lot of them over, but the Dwarf's increasing extermination efforts would have incentivized many to share knowledge about Runesmithing to better contribute to the fighting against deployments of Runecraft. Those who knew a lot about runesmithing ended up getting evacuated to Ulthuan. It is possible, but unlikely.

You should note that I have expressed a lot of uncertainty about whether it is confirmed that the White Tower can translate Saurian. That is because I'm still not clear on which language that the Sacred Plaques are carved in. It's either they are written in Saurian, or they are written in the script of the Old Ones. Morelian's description of the language matches Boney's description of the Old One scrolls a lot more than 4th Edition's Saurian. Boney has read at least part of the trilogy.

Ulthuan has had four thousand years more years than Laurelorn to find more examples of both Old One and Saurian script. And the White Tower has driven Ulthuan to accumulate all knowledge unto itself for two thousand years. It has a lot of incentive to translate it.

Why would it? Dwarfs already know that elves are untrustworthy. They know for sure that they taught elves it back in the day, before they proved their perfidiousness. The revelation that it was shared outside the apprenticeship line would shock nobody. And could cause zero wars because Ulthuan retreated from the Old World and still rules the waves. Tale of Metal possesses infinitely more ability to spark wars than confirming something Runesmiths would already grumble about.

Aren't the Runesmiths oathbound to keep Runesmith secrets and religiously obligated to kill to keep them that way? I feel if Arcane Khazalid was known by the Asur the Runesm would be obligated to try to go and kill them. Or suffer shame for an oath they cannot fulfill.

The same would happen, although with other Guilds if they knew what Tale of Metal could do I think.


Regardless, if they do not know Saurian, then Mathilde is really not worse off than the Asur to learn the Old Ones Tongue since then she would/could have access to Arcane Khazalid, Anoqeyan and High Nehekaran.

And we have no clue if the White Tower failed or succeeded at it. (In fact we don't even know if they have tried although it seems obvious that they should have).

With the only difference between them and Mathilde being the time it might take to derive the Old Ones language from its direct descendants.




Also this might be a bit silly but considering how the scrolls written in Old Ones Tongue were described I get the feeling writing a Lexicon for it would be impossible and it'd be "too much" for paper to contain it (unless solid gold plates - the only material comfy enough to contain their insights - are used). So I get the feeling if anyone wants to learn it they'd either need to learn it from a teacher or recreate it.
 
The second Daughter is Asuryan.
When Mathilde opens her mouth to point out the obvious problems with that, an elf materialises beside her to smugly remark that there's no contradiction.
Asuryan died and then showed up again wearing a mask. That was clearly Ranald's other daughter taking up His mantle sneakily. The elves stay winning, there is in fact no contradiction.
 
First of all, credit to @Gavin Prince for this excellent post:
An incomplete summary of options for the purchase turn:

Library:
  • A College purchase to either:
    • Round out our remaining Winds ([ ] LIBRARY: Chamon, Shyish, Hysh, Ghur)
    • Get some Imperial knowledge on Nehekhara as it seems to be cropping up here and there, with one spare slot for something else, so something like ([ ] LIBRARY: Nehekharan Pantheon, The Mortuary Cult, Nehekharan Incantations, Liminal Pathways)
  • Or a Barak Varr purchase similarly focusing on:
    • What the Dwarves know about Nehekhara ([ ] LIBRARY: Geography of Nehekhara, The Nehekharan Pantheon, Nehekharan War-Statuary). As a reminder, Empire knowledge on Nehekhara is a College topic, so the BV vote would only get the Dwarf bonus.
  • Or a Backfill operation to populate one of the emptier sections of our library, like war and combat or applied sciences
College Favour:
We have 10 to spend, as the Hochlander will take his due of 1CF from our current total of 11 before the next turn starts.
  • Ulgu Powerstone. 5CF. Mathilde has gone through two so far, but only in her downtime (one for her robes, one for the orbs). It's a useful thing to have in a pinch, though, especially with the Elfcation on the horizon.
  • Translation of Eonir texts on Medicine and Surgery into Reikspiel, to be donated to the Shallyans. 6CF. This is an idea that's been floated around for a while - the entire base of Imperial medicinal practice is derived from a single old Eltharin text. Getting more into the hands of professional healers is likely to be appreciated, even if maybe there's nothing groundbreaking to be learned. It's possible this would translate College Favour into some form of Shallyan favour currency, but mostly this is altruism.
  • A briefing on Druuchi from Walter Kupfer. This is [ ] NO PURCHASE but with intent, as getting tuition is for the turn plan-vote and takes 1AP and 10CF "[ ] Receive Tuition from an expert...".
Dwarf/Runesmith (via AV)
  • Convincing the Runesmith Guild to open negotiations for a shared favour economy with either the Grey College specifically or the Colleges as an institution. Most Wizards don't get the opportunity Mathilde did in striking up relationships with the two greatest Runelords in the world. This was noted as being one of the things that AV could purchase back when its translation to Runesmith favour first became an option. It doesn't guarantee success, or any kind of terms. It's paying the Guild to send a representative to sit down and talk seriously; that's it.
Gold
  • "Ten Kingdoms of Ulthuan" (Extensive Bretonnian - 100g) or another 150gc on (Esoteric Imperial), bought out of pocket as Elfcation prep.
  • Fief upgrades - specifically a stone keep replacing the manse. It's unlikely to ever need this, so it'd be fluff. But if you like fief-building fluff, it's explicitly okayed as an option for spending gold on.
I strongly recommend people check it out.

[X][LIBRARY] Colleges of Magic: Liminal Pathways, Nehekharan Pantheon, The Mortuary Cult, Nehekharan Incantations
Some cool magical topics that we're sorta interested in because we've exhausted the low-hanging fruit. That said, the Wind cleanup purchase vote also looks great to me. This is not a big deal.

[X][COLLEGE] An Ulgu powerstone (5 CF)
To quote myself:
Because I want to go to Nagarythe next turn, and the primary use of Powerstones is as a one-shot spell enhancer, which might be very useful if shit hits the fan and we need to drop an empowered MMM in a hurry. Having an extra get-out-of-jail-free card is just nice, especially when it's affordable and our practical uses for CF are dwindling.
Worst-case scenario is we use it for an Enchanting project down the line.

[X] [DWARF] No purchase.
[X] [PURCHASE] No purchase.
Nothing from either of these categories.
 
[X] [LIBRARY] Colleges of Magic - The Nehekharan Pantheon, The Mortuary Cult, Nehekharan Incantations, Prophecy

Nehekhara is a giant empty section within the library where having it filled would prove useful for some of the outstanding research actions we have. War Statuary seems the most marginal of the batch; it's possible that knowing the difference between a War Sphinx and a Necrosphinx may prove pivotal down the line, but it seems unlikely. As such, I'd rather bump up Prophecy from Extensive to Esoteric if only for the Wsoran prophecy research down the line.

Liminal Pathways are another option - they're things like Beastpaths, World Roots, Fey Paths, etc. No real crossover with Liminal Realms despite the similarity in nomenclature, and nothing we have (including AV) represents a realistic way of creating a Path. So it's more for background information on a magical topic that has examples across multiple polities that we might theoretically run into at some point.

____

[X] [DWARF] Open negotiations to allow the Colleges of Magic access to the favor economy of the Runesmith Guild on an institutional level (Pay with AV)
[X] [DWARF] Open negotiations to allow the Grey College access to the favor economy of the Runesmith Guild on an institutional level (Pay with AV)

This has been an option since the AV-Runic Favour exchange was made possible, but we've never followed up on it as it coincided with voting on the Transcendental K8P Boon and dropped off the radar. This option isn't necessarily about individual wizards getting runic kits on demand and making wishlists of radical ideas. More on the level of the Colleges negotiating for runic upgrades to infrastructure. There's no existing official channel for Algard or Dragomas to approach the infamously closed-off Guild. This is about setting one up.

____

[X] [COLLEGE] Translations of Extensive/Obscure Asur Medicine and Anatomy texts into Reikspiel, to be donated to the Temple of Shallya (Pay with 6 College Favor)

The entire field of Imperial Medicine is based on the unearthing of a single Eltharin text in Tilea by the Asur scholar Gaelan. We just got unprecedented access to…not the entire corpus of Asur medical knowledge (we only got +3, not +5), but more than anyone else is likely to have seen in the Human realms.

A lot of the texts we've got, we may as well wait for interested scholars to show up to see them. Medical texts seem worth putting in some extra effort on our part to ensure they're disseminated as widely as possible as quickly as possible, and the Shallyans will put them to the most immediate practical use.

____

[X] [PURCHASE] No Purchase.

When the Ithilmar trade was going to get us a massive cash windfall I was hoping to have a minor purchase to max out "Ten Kingdoms of Ulthuan" with Extensive Bretonnian (100g) and Esoteric Imperial (150g). That hasn't panned out (though we got a lot more books than those two sets!), so I'd rather keep what we have for picking up knick-knacks in Lothern.
 
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We had a Patriarch turn up and tell us to stop sitting on our Skaven tech hoard.
We haven't suffered anything else because Mathilde is rarely not doing something obviously productive with her time and resources. However the Collages will not be quiet about her just saving up AV against some future use rather than using or selling it.
So... The whole question of how to release the information about Aethyric Vitae and the Orbs of Sorcery (which sounds like the title of a fantasy novel that's trying very hard) to the Colleges has been itching at my mind for a little while. I'm sure that this has been discussed before but, well... Considering the possibility that Mathilde's jaunting off to Ulthuan for a bit quite soon, it's probably worth doing again! If I'm mistaken about any of the below or it's been reasoned out more thoroughly somewhere that I didn't find in my cursory search, please correct me!

While it's possible that there are other ways, as I understand it, we only have confirmation of one way to make Aethyric Vitae: trapping an Apparition in a state between life and death. That isn't impossible - after all, Mathilde's done it - but it isn't yet easy, safe or reliable either. What nobody wants to happen is for this information to become public and every Apprentice or Journeyman wizard looking for a quick path to wealth or significance to start deliberately attracting Apparitions in an attempt to make Aethyric Vitae. As such, I highly suspect that Mathilde's work on Aethyric Vitae is going to be kept for scrutiny by only the most trusted eyes of the Colleges and will stay that way until either a safe and vaguely reliable process for summoning Apparitions and turning them into Schrödinger's Apparitions is found or until an alternative safe and vaguely reliable process is found. Mathilde, of course, could work on that herself at some point if she wished!

This makes the Orbs of Sorcery tricky from the perspective of College politics. If Mathilde announces that she has new Orbs and a way to make them, people are going to want to know how. If it is also announced that the way to make them is being kept secret for safety's sake, some people are going to accept it as typical College business, others are going to be very upset indeed and accuse Mathilde and/or the Greys of being too conservative or holding back knowledge for personal gain, yet others might start wild and rushed experimentation trying to make Orbs of Sorcery for themselves... If Algard or the Council were to anticipate this and urge caution, which doesn't seem unlikely, the new Orbs might also have to be kept quiet until safe Aethyric Vitae production methods are identified.

One potential way around this that occurred to me as I was writing the above... I've wondered for a little bit about suggesting bringing a new set of Orbs of Sorcery to Ulthuan to send as an amusing and poetic gift to Teclis, to return the favour for the ones he gifted the Colleges at their foundation. Now, though, I wonder if we couldn't use that to repeat what we inadvertently did with the Waystone Project: demonstrate that humanity's got most of the way there with something and ask what the stable, sane way of achieving it would be rather than the hacky and probably dangerous workarounds that are currently being considered. That said, messing around with the Waystone Network is something that directly affects the Asur; the Empire making and having new Orbs of Sorcery probably isn't, so we'd be riding on Teclis' goodwill almost immediately after he's pulled strings to secure assistance for the Waystone Project... Might be a non-starter. (Still want to suggest that we send a set of Orbs as a gift, though. Got a 'Look at me, Magic Dad! Look how we've grown!' vibe to it that is very funny, equally sweet and fits with Mathilde's character - the more innocent side of the compulsion to be indispensably useful and competent that I commented on a short while ago.)
 
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