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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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I'm in the process of updating my library document and I couldn't help but notice...
Boney said:
Skaven +15 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Bretonnian / Extensive and Esoteric Dwarven / Skaven / Extensive Asur
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Very curious. The Dwarfs only first encountered the Skaven during the Time of Woes, which was right after the War of the Beard, but these books would have had to be from before that.

...And you know, there is one Ulrican myth that suggests the Skaven originated right after the Coming of Chaos.

Lord Ulric and the Making of the World (Children of the Horned Rat 2e) said:
[...]
Exhausted and grief-stricken, Ulric and his fellow Gods left the battlefield, carrying all their dead home to give them proper burial. But here was their great mistake. For the bodies of the Chaos hordes still lay on the battlefield, a vast carpet of carnage. And on top of it all lay the hideous bodies of the Chaos Gods themselves. As they lay there rotting, there came what always must come to battlefields: a plague of rats to feast upon the dead.

And with such a feast, the rats came in their thousands, then in their millions. They fed on the beasts of Chaos and the Daemons and the monsters. So great was the frenzy of feasting that the rats grew gigantic with the food, and fought savagely with each other for the greatest spoils. Finally, the largest and strongest rats fell upon the Chaos Gods themselves, and as they did they gained something of their nature. They grew even more in size, and in cunning and in brutality, into things that were a mockery of man himself.

And so it was, when Ulric returned to the battlefield, he saw the rats feasting, and realised his great mistake. In their great consumption the rats had taken on a remnant of those foul Gods' power, and become like them: a new race, like the Humans and the Dwarfs, only made from pure Chaos. They, like all things of Chaos, would work forever to destroy Humanity and all he had built, and to one day bring about the victory the Chaos Gods had been denied. He saw too that the Daemon troops that had been routed had returned and carried away what was not eaten, and then had fled to the darkest corners of the world. They, too, these Beastmen, would watch and wait for their chance to reclaim the world from Men and Dwarfs. Ulric had saved the earth, but he had doomed the mortals who lived there to ever face the threat of a similar destruction.

Although it was too late, Ulric struck his hammer hard on the stony ground and brought forth a great flame with it. And with that flame he burnt all that foul offal that remained to ashes. Then he charged his brother Manann to drown the whole field with water so it could never more taint the land. The waters of the ocean poured over the field, and it became the Sea of Chaos.

Then Ulric turned to the fate of the Men. He taught them how to mould steel to make hammers and swords and axes, and taught them how to wield them. He taught them how to fight, and to hunt, and to kill. And lastly he taught them how to make fire and how to use it. All of this was to prepare them for their endless battle with the minions of Chaos. He taught them well, and gave them courage. He took charge over Mankind, and promised he would ever watch over them, for now their lives would know only battle. In return, the people of Ulric pledged to never suffer a Chaosthing to live while they had breath in their bodies, and to ensure that every beast of Chaos that fell would be burned to ash, cleansed from this world by Ulric's Holy Fire. Thus, the taint of Chaos would never spread again. Ulric's mistake must never be repeated, and creatures like the Skaven must never again be born unto this world. And so we keep our pact forevermore. We strike without fear against the Ratmen, and the Beastmen, and all the creatures of Chaos, and raise the cleansing flame of Ulric to all the heavens above.
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This is the same text that speaks of Ulric and Ranald being friends, and of Ranald fleeing from Chaos to hide beneath desert sands instead of standing and fighting.

Given that Eltharion told us that part of the northern Old World was drowned and the Sea of Claws was created during the Coming of Chaos, perhaps these Skaven books are surviving records of that first encounter. Perhaps the Asur had to deal with these recently-created Skaven? Hmm.

Edit: I'm told that those books are from when the Eonir aided Mandred Skavenslayer. My mistake.
 
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DragonParadox said:
With the way Miscasts work in this system any miscast can explode into daemons, yes even petty magic, because the tables overflow. Roll enough 100s, or in this case 1s since the system is inverted and you can get to Catastrophic. That said miscasts do not start on that table until battle magic. Thankfully Hubert like Mathilde kept to spells he can cast without ever rolling on the table with his magic 5, so he is fine.
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I don't recall Boney ever opening up the system for miscasts and explaining how it works for us

The table can roll over in wfrp, but the system for casting magic doesn't match wfrp, so picking examples from that is inherently arbitrary
Nor do the dice rolls for miscasts when they come up appear to line up with wfrp anyway
 
Parabola said:
Very curious. The Dwarfs only first encountered the Skaven during the Time of Woes, which was right after the War of the Beard, but these books would have had to be from before that.
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I think Boney said those books are from the Eonir encountering the Skaven while aiding Mandred Skavenslayer.

Though the bonus should probably be Eonir rather than Asur?
 
CrimsonOddball said:
I don't recall Boney ever opening up the system for miscasts and explaining how it works for us

The table can roll over in wfrp, but the system for casting magic doesn't match wfrp, so picking examples from that is inherently arbitrary
Nor do the dice rolls for miscasts when they come up appear to line up with wfrp anyway
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*shrug* I mean it is one level of canonicity below all things from this quest and Word of Boney, he could of course have changed everything and not told us, but the instances of miscasts we have seem seem to take from those lists and the WFB list. I think it is reasonable to treat it with some confidence unless and until disproven like everything else from the RPG, say the unreliability of potions and their tendency to kill you when they go off.
 
CrimsonOddball said:
Nor do the dice rolls for miscasts when they come up appear to line up with wfrp anyway
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Ehh, Boney seems to use the miscast table to some extent. Mathilde's previously had a handful of the miscasts on the lowest table happen to her - when saving the Dwarf Monitor, she had like two, I think, and when she failed that messed up that one Shadowsteed enchantment with Egrimm, Boney confirmed she rolled Unnatural Aura - which would have briefly scared all animals around her, but didnt apply there because there were nor animals in the lab.

Mopman43 said:
I think Boney said those books are from the Eonir encountering the Skaven while aiding Mandred Skavenslayer.

Though the bonus should probably be Eonir rather than Asur?
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Oh, I completely missed that post, then. Yes, if that's so then it should probably be Eonir in nature.
 
Talking of subjects that may be in the Libraar of Mourning, the Dark Elves at least seem to have their own perspective on the nature and properties of the soul:

Boney said:
"Have you... pierced your soul with Ulgu? Repeatedly?"

You look down at yourself, and wave away some of the mist clinging to you. In Tor Lithanel there's much less smoke than in human cities, so currently most of it is perfume. "That would be one way to describe it."

"How do you manage that? Wouldn't breaching the surface tension of the soul that many times be ruinous to its integrity?"

"Not if it's performed from within."

"It's self-inflicted?" she says, looking closer with an expression of delighted horror. "We knew that you'd received some instruction from the usurpers, but hadn't realized you'd developed upon it yourselves in such a bold way."
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I wonder if the Eonir would have anything related about the soul in their library. It may be something they consider too dangerous to share though.
 
An incomplete summary of options for the purchase turn:

Library:
  • A College purchase to either:
    • Round out our remaining Winds ([ ] LIBRARY: Chamon, Shyish, Hysh, Ghur)
    • Get some Imperial knowledge on Nehekhara as it seems to be cropping up here and there, with one spare slot for something else, so something like ([ ] LIBRARY: Nehekharan Pantheon, The Mortuary Cult, Nehekharan Incantations, Liminal Pathways)
  • Or a Barak Varr purchase similarly focusing on:
    • What the Dwarves know about Nehekhara ([ ] LIBRARY: Geography of Nehekhara, The Nehekharan Pantheon, Nehekharan War-Statuary). As a reminder, Empire knowledge on Nehekhara is a College topic, so the BV vote would only get the Dwarf bonus.
  • Or a Backfill operation to populate one of the emptier sections of our library, like war and combat or applied sciences
College Favour:
We have 10 to spend, as the Hochlander will take his due of 1CF from our current total of 11 before the next turn starts.
  • Ulgu Powerstone. 5CF. Mathilde has gone through two so far, but only in her downtime (one for her robes, one for the orbs). It's a useful thing to have in a pinch, though, especially with the Elfcation on the horizon.
  • Translation of Eonir texts on Medicine and Surgery into Reikspiel, to be donated to the Shallyans. 6CF. This is an idea that's been floated around for a while - the entire base of Imperial medicinal practice is derived from a single old Eltharin text. Getting more into the hands of professional healers is likely to be appreciated, even if maybe there's nothing groundbreaking to be learned. It's possible this would translate College Favour into some form of Shallyan favour currency, but mostly this is altruism.
  • A briefing on Druuchi from Walter Kupfer. This is [ ] NO PURCHASE but with intent, as getting tuition is for the turn plan-vote and takes 1AP and 10CF "[ ] Receive Tuition from an expert...".
Dwarf/Runesmith (via AV)
  • Convincing the Runesmith Guild to open negotiations for a shared favour economy with either the Grey College specifically or the Colleges as an institution. Most Wizards don't get the opportunity Mathilde did in striking up relationships with the two greatest Runelords in the world. This was noted as being one of the things that AV could purchase back when its translation to Runesmith favour first became an option. It doesn't guarantee success, or any kind of terms. It's paying the Guild to send a representative to sit down and talk seriously; that's it.
Gold
  • "Ten Kingdoms of Ulthuan" (Extensive Bretonnian - 100g) or another 150gc on (Esoteric Imperial), bought out of pocket as Elfcation prep.
  • Fief upgrades - specifically a stone keep replacing the manse. It's unlikely to ever need this, so it'd be fluff. But if you like fief-building fluff, it's explicitly okayed as an option for spending gold on.
 
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Alratan said:
I wonder if the Eonir would have anything related about the soul in their library. It may be something they consider too dangerous to share though.
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Shyish touches on the nature of the soul, IIRC, so maybe it's there, in passing? I don't imagine there's a huge amount of it on that, nothing that would qualify for its own library topic. Souls seem to vary a lot from one being to another.
 
Parabola said:
Shyish touches on the nature of the soul, IIRC, so maybe it's there, in passing? I don't imagine there's a huge amount of it on that, nothing that would qualify for its own library topic. Souls seem to vary a lot from one being to another.
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Souls seem standard enough that the concept that Mathilde is a reincarnated dwarven soul isn't inherently absurd, the vampire transformation works on all humans, necromancy in general (which is based on manipulating souls and fragments of souls) works on all known sapient species, and arcane marks seems to be semi-standardised.

Also, I don't think Shyish logically should have any more to do with the nature of the soul than many other Winds, particularly Aqshy, Hysh, Ulgu, and Ghyran. Any 'mind' affecting Wind is probably targeting the soul.
 
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Alratan said:
Souls seem standard enough that the concept that Mathilde is a reincarnated dwarven soul isn't inherently absurd, the vampire transformation works on all humans, necromancy in general (which is based on manipulating souls and fragments of souls) works on all known sapient species, and arcane marks seems to be semi-standardised.

Also, I don't think Shyish logically should have any more to do with the nature of the soul than many other Winds, particularly Hysh, Ulgu, and Ghyran.
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It may not be completely absurd but nobody seriously thinks Mathilde is a reincarnated dwarf.

Vampires are actually super mutable - even in the same bloodline, vampires can have different strengths and weaknesses, the Strigoi's current bloodline status is a result of feeding on corpses and animals, and we've previously covered how vampires can succumb to the beast within and become either Varghulfs or Vargheists.

Necromancy 'works' on all sapient species by disregarding the well-being and consent of the bound/enslaved soul, you may as well say that it's like how fire works on all known sapient species.

And Arcane Marks may have commonalities but can in fact get customized to individuals.

Shyish in fact has a relationship to the soul because it's about the ending of things and the greatest ending is that of life. Pure Shyish spells can let you speak to the dead, can suck the energy out of living people to strengthen yourself, can curse people who break into graves, and can simply say "you there, die". Shyish is one half of what lets Necromancy do what it does.
 
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Gavin Prince said:
  • Or a Backfill operation to populate one of the emptier sections of our library, like war and combat or applied sciences
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There's a bunch of libraries we haven't copied yet which could have some overlap with those Backfills - the Aquila Academy of Nuln will definitely have a lot of Imperial books on combat, and the Minor Colleges might have some stuff on applied sciences (and the Imperial School of Engineers will definitely have stuff on Enginnering, but that's just one applied science topic and we're already pretty much maxed out on it). The most efficient option is, as always, Dwarven religion backfill.
 
Parabola said:
Shyish in fact has a relationship to the soul because it's about the ending of things and the greatest ending is that of life. Pure Shyish spells can let you speak to the dead, can suck the energy out of living people to strengthen yourself, can curse people who break into graves, and can simply say "you there, die".
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Ghosts are partially made of Shysh not just whatever native soul stuff is in there so it might be that Shysh can do so much with the Dead rather than souls generally because the act of lingering, or being forced to linger taints one with the Wind of Ending.
 
I found it funny that it is seemingly allright for 6 year olds to dig their own mines. dwarf infection proceeds apace XD

Can't wait for the coming Verenan crusade err excommunication andor declaration of sainthood.

Also, daang old one scrolls, menacing awesomely.
 
Gavin Prince said:
College Favour:
Ulgu Powerstone. 5CF. Mathilde has gone through two so far, but only in her downtime (one for her robes, one for the orbs). It's a useful thing to have in a pinch, though, especially with the Elfcation on the horizon.
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I'm against spending on an expendable item that doesn't have a specific and concrete use case.
With the Grounding Rod we know the specific circumstances it will be used.
With a powerstone either Boney will need to stop mid-event for a vote on whether to use it or make a judgment call that will almost certainly cause arguments. Plus there will probably be arguments that we should have used it when we didn't.

Also there is the fact that Mathilde isn't much of a heavy spell-slinger. She has only acted like that in large military engagements when she has no time to plan something better. I doubt such a situation will come up while in a counter-counter-counter-espionage environment.

Dwarf/Runesmith (via AV)
Convincing the Runesmith Guild to open negotiations for a shared favour economy with either the Grey College specifically or the Colleges as an institution. Most Wizards don't get the opportunity Mathilde did in striking up relationships with the two greatest Runelords in the world. This was noted as being one of the things that AV could purchase back when its translation to Runesmith favour first became an option. It doesn't guarantee success, or any kind of terms. It's paying the Guild to send a representative to sit down and talk seriously; that's it.
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If we do this it pretty much has to be now, before AV becomes known to the Collages as a strategic asset.
No one will be taking the box away be there will absolutely be political pressure on how it should be utilized.

Gold
Fief upgrades - specifically a stone keep replacing the manse. It's unlikely to ever need this, so it'd be fluff. But if you like fief-building fluff, it's explicitly okayed as an option for spending gold on.
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We are planning to visit the biggest trading hub on the planet soon. Now is not the time to be sinking gold.
 
Angelform said:
I'm against spending on an expendable item that doesn't have a specific and concrete use case.
With the Grounding Rod we know the specific circumstances it will be used.
With a powerstone either Boney will need to stop mid-event for a vote on whether to use it or make a judgment call that will almost certainly cause arguments. Plus there will probably be arguments that we should have used it when we didn't.
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Safely overcasing spells, could have saved our lives at the Monitor rescue say if we had though of it and we had a break point to use it. We just did not think of it in time.
 
Angelform said:
If we do this it pretty much has to be now, before AV becomes known to the Collages as a strategic asset.
No one will be taking the box away be there will absolutely be political pressure on how it should be utilized.
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No they will not, that is how you get wizards to never reveal things like this. We have never been under 'political pressure', probably because the Grey College does not want its super assassins with only a theoretical responsibility to kick anything upstairs ever to feel pressured.
 
This was a lovely update, both in covering the new wizardling, and in seeing our mighty library balloon in size.

mathymancer said:
There's a bunch of libraries we haven't copied yet which could have some overlap with those Backfills - the Aquila Academy of Nuln will definitely have a lot of Imperial books on combat, and the Minor Colleges might have some stuff on applied sciences (and the Imperial School of Engineers will definitely have stuff on Enginnering, but that's just one applied science topic and we're already pretty much maxed out on it). The most efficient option is, as always, Dwarven religion backfill.
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If we get to Karak Vlag's books in the next few turns, it's likely to cover the Dwarven religion books almost entirely, as an entire Karak will probably have copies of anything that Backfill can get, given the dawi predilection for secret-keeping.

Except of course, for all of the cutting edge religious progress from the last 200 years - which is to say, none :V
 
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Mopman43 said:
Though the bonus should probably be Eonir rather than Asur?
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Parabola said:
Oh, I completely missed that post, then. Yes, if that's so then it should probably be Eonir in nature.
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The Asur bonus represents topics that the Eonir have books on, but the perspectives are not meaningfully different than Ulthuan's. For instance, the comment that Boney replied to about warp lightning mentioned that the Eonir shouldn't have Asur books because of the lack of contact. The Eonir don't have much knowledge about formal Philosophy and Rhetoric that is distinct from Ulthuan because for the most part they treat it like a sport. So their books on the topics just reflect the insights you would get from the Asur.

I think the books on the Old Ones are similar. The Library had access to the most up to date information Ulthuan had on the Old Ones before the Sundering and abandonment of the Old World. But their research really isn't that distinct from Ulthuan's. In no small part because Laurelorn's research contributed to the Asur books on the Old Ones.
 
Gavin Prince said:
Convincing the Runesmith Guild to open negotiations for a shared favour economy with either the Grey College specifically or the Colleges as an institution. Most Wizards don't get the opportunity Mathilde did in striking up relationships with the two greatest Runelords in the world. This was noted as being one of the things that AV could purchase back when its translation to Runesmith favour first became an option. It doesn't guarantee success, or any kind of terms. It's paying the Guild to send a representative to sit down and talk seriously; that's it.
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This is something i am absolutely in favor of.

Opening channels between the Runesmith Guild and the Colleges would be a great step forward and give great advantags for both organizations, and as a consequence the Empire and the Dwarves.

That would also increase Mathilde standing with the Colleges even more. Maybe not counting as a Great Deed but close.

And give Algard even more headaches 🤣

Gavin Prince said:
Fief upgrades - specifically a stone keep replacing the manse. It's unlikely to ever need this, so it'd be fluff. But if you like fief-building fluff, it's explicitly okayed as an option for spending gold on.
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I am not sure how much a stone keep would be good as an investment. Maybe for the fief we should invest more in the local economy? Make sure the people have access to healers or other needed services?
 
Deathbybunnies said:
If we get to Karak Vlag's books in the next few turns, it's likely to cover the Dwarven religion books almost entirely, as an entire Karak will probably have copies of anything that Backfill can get, given the dawi predilection for secret-keeping.

Except of course, for all of the cutting edge religious progress from the last 200 years - which is to say, none :V
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And considering how Mathilde has saved the Karak, i am sure they will give her all the books she can possibly want. Even some of those who they normaly wouldn't share with outsiders.
 
What we have learned from this library-copying is that the Eonir have a marked disinterest in collecting bugs. Zero new knowledge on Arthropods! Spend a thousand years in a forest and they can't even tell you about the beetles there.
 
Parabola said:
It may not be completely absurd but nobody seriously thinks Mathilde is a reincarnated dwarf.

Vampires are actually super mutable - even in the same bloodline, vampires can have different strengths and weaknesses, the Strigoi's current bloodline status is a result of feeding on corpses and animals, and we've previously covered how vampires can succumb to the beast within and become either Varghulfs or Vargheists.

Necromancy 'works' on all sapient species by disregarding the well-being and consent of the bound/enslaved soul, you may as well say that it's like how fire works on all known sapient species.

And Arcane Marks may have commonalities but can in fact get customized to individuals.

Shyish in fact has a relationship to the soul because it's about the ending of things and the greatest ending is that of life. Pure Shyish spells can let you speak to the dead, can suck the energy out of living people to strengthen yourself, can curse people who break into graves, and can simply say "you there, die". Shyish is one half of what lets Necromancy do what it does.
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Vampires develop in relatively predictable ways based on their exposure to the energy they eat though. Necrachs eating Dhar and Strigoi eating animal souls, for example.

Necromancy doesn't work like fire though. It works like crude oil refining to make plastic. Necromancy requires you take specific parts of a soul to make specific types of undead, and Necromancers seem to be able to make elven or dwarven wights using the relevant parts of those souls. That tells us that elves and dwarves have sufficiently similar 'sub-souls'/parts of the soul to humans that Necromancers can use the same spells designed to manipulate parts of a human soul on non-human souls and have them produce the same result.

Shyish can do things with souls, but so can other Winds. You can astrally project your soul with Azyr, for example.

Mystic Pentagram said:
This is something i am absolutely in favor of.

Opening channels between the Runesmith Guild and the Colleges would be a great step forward and give great advantags for both organizations, and as a consequence the Empire and the Dwarves.

That would also increase Mathilde standing with the Colleges even more. Maybe not counting as a Great Deed but close.

And give Algard even more headaches 🤣
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What's in it for the Runesmiths though? What favours can Grey Wizards regularly offer them that's worth engaging in this?
 
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