Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

pucflek · Dec 12, 2023

NavySeel said:
So... you're fighting against an argument I've not seen a single person make.

Could you point out who's claiming bretonnia is going to implode or something?

I am not sure how else am i meant to interpret the insistence that Bretonnia needs waystones and that asking them to fucking do something to get them is morally heinous and dooming the planet.

NavySeel said:
More waystones in bretonnia isn't something that only helps brettonia. Every improvement in the ammount of Dhar that gets taken into the vortex helps the entire planet.

But it is. Because if Empire and Kislev have the capacity to build new waystones, that dhar gets siphoned away through the nexuses linking it to the vortex. Widening the network in Bretonnia helps only Bretonnia. We don´t care that Bretonnia is bleeding slightly more due to the wounds its network has because they decided that they did not existentially need it enough to join the project straight away, and because, once again, they decided that its good idea to wage war on Empire twice since Great War, once pointedly trying to kick the Empire while it was down.

You could, as a matter of fact, argue that Bretonnia that is forced to spend most manpower on keeping on top of its own issues is not a bad thing at all, because then they are too busy dealing with their own goddamn problems instead of launching invasions to neighbourhood. Its a cynical one, but that doesn´t make it less true.

Of course, an argument could be made that its one of the sole lynchpins through which the nexuses ferry the energy out of the Old World, but Ulthuani are on top of that issue already.

DragonParadox · Dec 12, 2023

pucflek said:
I am not sure how else am i meant to interpret the insistence that Bretonnia needs waystones and that asking them to fucking do something to get them is morally heinous and dooming the planet.

But it is. Because if Empire and Kislev have the capacity to build new waystones, that dhar gets siphoned away through the nexuses linking it to the vortex. Widening the network in Bretonnia helps only Bretonnia. We don´t care that Bretonnia is bleeding slightly more due to the wounds its network has because they decided that they did not existentially need it enough to join the project straight away, and because, once again, they decided that its good idea to wage war on Empire twice since Great War, once pointedly trying to kick the Empire while it was down.

You could, as a matter of fact, argue that Bretonnia that is forced to spend most manpower on keeping on top of its own issues is not a bad thing at all, because then they are too busy dealing with their own goddamn problems instead of launching invasions to neighbourhood. Its a cynical one, but that doesn´t make it less true.

Of course, an argument could be made that its one of the sole lynchpins through which the nexuses ferry the energy out of the Old World, but Ulthuani are on top of that issue already.

To be fair there is a moral argument to be made that the more Waystones you make in all places the better the whole world is, some are better than others but all are good. It is not like Damsels making new stones means that less will be made in the Empire or Kislev, but politics are a thing, this is an international project and also this is leverage that we can use to make the Bretonians help us save the world in non-rollout terms. Less tourneys and golden chandeliers and more knights fighting to reclaim nexuses to strengthen the network.

AsuraAtlas · Dec 12, 2023

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I fucking give up. If you want to be a bunch of Marienburger monopolists calculating profit and loss and value then go ahead.

I just want to save the fucking world, man.

Comparing their argument to Marienburgers valuing profit over saving the world is a bad faith reading. Especially against an argument you were one of the original pioneers for, way back when.

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
<!>Trade Offer<!>

I receive: Mutually profitable trade routes, knowledge sharing, and a military alliance.

You receive: magic rocks that will improve the physical, mental, and spiritual wellbeing of every person in your realm.

I'm sure Bretonnia is going to be so upset at being forced and manipulated into this bargain. I can hear them gnashing their teeth in frustration at the audacity of it all.

Yes, we're being blunt, forceful, manipulative, and a little rude. But we have too, because the Old World is a feudalistic hellhole trapped in the grip of unenlightened self interest, and if we have to back them into a corner where they have no choice but to work with us for mutual benefit, then we have no choice but to engineer that scenario.

No one is arguing that we abandon Bretonnia. The closest I've seen is people who don't want to interact with them or think they'll be useless and thus shouldn't be recruited. I don't agree with that take, but it doesn't hamper our ability to give Waystones to them. Some people don't want to give them Waystones before project members unless they negotiate for that, which I don't think will affect the world one way or the other. There's also the Athel Loren aspect, but nobody has mentioned that in a dozen or so pages.

For the record, I want to recruit Bretonnia, and as soon as possible. I think they'll be useful, I think they're cool, and I think the project would be much better if it was building diplomacy between the entire old world. But I haven't seen any posters arguing egregiously bad takes on either side.

Somic · Dec 12, 2023

mathymancer said:
That 'etc.' seems to imply that Laurelorn and Kislev were merely two in a longer list of generous offers, which isn't true? The only options not mentioned here are Karak Eight Peaks and the Grey Order, both of which basically said "yeah we'll help but politics are a bit of a mess and honestly you might want to do it elsewhere". It should also be noted that although Cadaeth did not ask us for any favour, our mere presence in Laurelorn is helping her side of an internal political struggle - a political struggle she downplayed to the point of practically lying about it when she first pitched us the Waystone project. None of the project members were "selfless" in joining the project except for my man Aksel, which to be clear is perfectly fine but I don't think that the Bretonnians were uniquely obstinate.

Yeah, that's a very fair point. Laurelorn and Kislev had additional incentives (politics and being existentially threatened, respectively) to house us so they made us amazing offers just for the basing. Bretonnia had a lot to offer too, but less pressure to do so, so they made an amazing offer at a higher cost. K8P and the Grey Order were basically just friendly territory, entirely free and available and with reasonable support, but nothing too specifically useful for the project.

So the offers were fair and balanced for those offering, but for Mathilde the best ones were Laurelorn and Kislev, so she chose Laurelorn for books. Bretonnia lost an entirely fair bidding war of sorts, no big deal.

Then, of course, they went

Boney said:
And had you accepted our invitation to pursue your research in Carcassone, we would already be working hand in hand with you. But you chose otherwise, and while our hearts can recover from being snubbed so

and I am personally not a big fan of putting any drama into losing entirely fair bidding wars, even though it's just coy flavoring she follows up by a (subtextually) straightforward offer of "find the Iron Orcs and we'll help", so

VoiceOfTheRiders · Dec 12, 2023

Somic said:
Yeah, that's a very fair point. Laurelorn and Kislev had additional incentives (politics and being existentially threatened, respectively) to house us so they made us amazing offers just for the basing. Bretonnia had a lot to offer too, but less pressure to do so, so they made an amazing offer at a higher cost. K8P and the Grey Order were basically just friendly territory, entirely free and available and with reasonable support, but nothing too specifically useful for the project.

So the offers were fair and balanced for those offering, but for Mathilde the best ones were Laurelorn and Kislev, so she chose Laurelorn for books. Bretonnia lost an entirely fair bidding war of sorts, no big deal.

Then, of course, they went

and I am personally not a big fan of putting any drama into losing entirely fair bidding wars, even though it's just coy flavoring she follows up by a (subtextually) straightforward offer of "find the Iron Orcs and we'll help", so

Once Brettonia wasn't hosting the project they had to be onboarded in the same manner as every other member who joined later.
The choice of host meant primarily no need to onboard said host.
Yes they worded the request differently (and while I enjoy their turn of phrase, it is perfectly fine if you found it off-putting) , but their reqruitement very much parallels that of Thorek, the Light and Jade orders and would have been the same as for Kislev except the Jade work was so good we managed to double up.

Similarly if not for the Father I would have expceted something similar to recruit the hedgewise. In all of these cases it was explained as we need to compensate the members for the time they spend on the project which they could have spent on more immeidate and useful concerns.

Mopman43 · Dec 12, 2023

DragonParadox said:
If the Damsels themselves had done independent research they would have something to show for it and they don't, no tributaries, no waystones.

I'm not sure why you're saying that with so much confidence.

Mathilde hasn't exactly engaged in a systematic examination of the Bretonnian network, or gotten anything like that from a Damsel.

Grail Chapels or what-have-you could easily be acting as tributaries and we'd have no idea.

Nerdasaurus Rex · Dec 12, 2023

AsuraAtlas said:
Especially against an argument you were one of the original pioneers for, way back when.

Sorry, I keep forgetting that I'm never allowed to have a change of opinion.

I want to swap our waystone lore for their waystone lore. In my eyes it is a fair and equitable agreement.

But several people do not value Bretonnia's waystone lore at all, and are claiming that it is deeply unfair in their favour. That we're giving it away for "free". That it's an "insult" to the current members. That Bretonnia should be force to contribute more than any other faction before we even think of treating them as an equal.

And my stance is "who cares?". I just want to spread waystone knowledge because it is a public good, and if that means we get a smaller payout at the end, well at least the planet is still habitable.

I just want a knowledge sharing agreement for mutual benefit. I want to kill the Iron Orcs because they are a threat that we have the skills and opportunity to deal with. I want to treat in good faith with the Bretonnians because I want us to be friends.

And apparently that's too much to ask for, so I'm going to stop asking for it.

Deathbybunnies · Dec 12, 2023

DragonParadox said:
To be fair there is a moral argument to be made that the more Waystones you make in all places the better the whole world is, some are better than others but all are good. It is not like Damsels making new stones means that less will be made in the Empire or Kislev, but politics are a thing, this is an international project and also this is leverage that we can use to make the Bretonians help us save the world in non-rollout terms. Less tourneys and golden chandeliers and more knights fighting to reclaim nexuses to strengthen the network.

Unless the Damsels can make entire Waystones on their own, they won't be increasing the number of Waystones produced, they'll be drawing from the limited building capacity of the Project. Which as a member in good standing would be fine and dandy, but that is objectively a cost the other countries would be paying to bring them onboard.

Execute/Dumbo · Dec 12, 2023

Man, remember when this argument popped up over the assassination and people were arguing not to make requests after it? And now the vast, vast majority of the thread is behind trying to get him to throw significant amounts of manpower into a canal while he's trying to rebuild Kislev.

Concessions can be overall beneficial, y'know? What do people expect the thread would demand out of Brettonia, a wagon full of unmarked gold bars? Because I want a peace treaty and maybe some promised extra manpower for the project. Am I a cackling monopolist for that?

DragonParadox · Dec 12, 2023

Mopman43 said:
I'm not sure why you're saying that with so much confidence.

Mathilde hasn't exactly engaged in a systematic examination of the Bretonnian network, or gotten anything like that from a Damsel.

Grail Chapels or what-have-you could easily be acting as tributaries and we'd have no idea.

Well for one there is no canon information about anyone making new waystones beside the elves and also in this quest Teclis reacted to the making of new tributaries in Stirland as though it were unprecedented, he did not think 'oh it's just like those Grail Chapels, they figured it out too.'

Tobtorp · Dec 12, 2023

Execute/Dumbo said:
Concessions can be overall beneficial, y'know? What do people expect the threat would want to demand out of Brettonia, a wagon full of unmarked gold bars? Because I want a peace treaty and maybe some promised extra manpower for the project.

The peace treaty wouldn't be worth as much as you think. Because as the absolute monarchy bretonnia is, breaking it can be as fast as a perceived insult or a half seen opportunity.

Also I would have given more Credence to "bretonnia is bad because of wars" if not two of our own main partners in the project had armed conflicts in recent and not so recent memory. Laurelorn and kislev both have empire blood on their hands if for very different reasons."

DragonParadox · Dec 12, 2023

Tobtorp said:
The peace treaty wouldn't be worth as much as you think. Because as the absolute monarchy bretonnia is, breaking it can be as fast as a perceived insult or a half seen opportunity.

Er... I'm pretty sure if one were to say that to a Bretonian knight they would consider it grounds for a duel. You are accusing them of being feckless habitual oath-breakers looking for an excuse.

pucflek · Dec 12, 2023

Tobtorp said:
Also I would have given more Credence to "bretonnia is bad because of wars" if not two of our own main partners in the project had armed conflicts in recent and not so recent memory. Laurelorn and kislev both have empire blood on their hands if for very different reasons."

There is a difference between five hundred years of relative peace and standing together in face of annihilation that Kislev has, the relative non-involvement of Laurelorn in outright attack on Empire holdings in at least that long a time, and Pavarron launching an attack right after Great War and then again some sixty or so years ago. Johanns Masters Master fought in that one so i assume it was something like that.

The agression from Bretonnia is far more recent. Its comparing apples and oranges.

Tobtorp said:
The peace treaty wouldn't be worth as much as you think. Because as the absolute monarchy bretonnia is, breaking it can be as fast as a perceived insult or a half seen opportunity.

I would hope that guarantees from Royarch, who has to be a champion of the Lady, literally a grail knight, would be better than that. But it doesn´t need to be ironclad, we just need some grounding to build something more mutually beneficial, because once everyone has a stake in something its much less likely it will get torched.

Execute/Dumbo · Dec 12, 2023

Tobtorp said:
The peace treaty wouldn't be worth as much as you think. Because as the absolute monarchy bretonnia is, breaking it can be as fast as a perceived insult or a half seen opportunity.

Also I would have given more Credence to "bretonnia is bad because of wars" if not two of our own main partners in the project had armed conflicts in recent and not so recent memory. Laurelorn and kislev both have empire blood on their hands if for very different reasons."

Sorry, are you saying a peace treaty won't be worth much because the rulers would be fully willing to break it over a minor insult, while also arguing Brettonia isn't that bad? I don't think Brettonia's that untrustworthy, because the absolute monarchy you're talking about is one divinely organised to select the most knightly guy in the kingdom. If that peace treaty keeps a third war from sparking within the century, it will have been worth it.

Mopman43 · Dec 12, 2023

DragonParadox said:
Well for one there is no canon information about anyone making new waystones beside the elves and also in this quest Teclis reacted to the making of new tributaries in Stirland as though it were unprecedented, he did not think 'oh it's just like those Grail Chapels, they figured it out too.'

The Belthani and Scythians, among others, made brand new tributaries. It's not some impossible feat.

Teclis noticed because the creation of the tributaries in Stirland is extremely regular and happening right now. If it was happening at a prior point in Bretonnian history Teclis would have no idea about it, and if they don't do it in at a set pace it'd be much harder to notice. If, hypothetically, it's tied to Grail Chapels, then it'd be something like 'maybe once a decade a small amount of energy is added to the network'.

I'm not arguing that they definitely have tributaries, but I think the statement that they 100% don't is premature.

DragonParadox · Dec 12, 2023

Mopman43 said:
The Belthani and Scythians, among others, made brand new tributaries. It's not some impossible feat.

Teclis noticed because the creation of the tributaries in Stirland is extremely regular and happening right now. If it was happening at a prior point in Bretonnian history Teclis would have no idea about it, and if they don't do it in at a set pace it'd be much harder to notice. If, hypothetically, it's tied to Grail Chapels, then it'd be something like 'maybe once a decade a small amount of energy is added to the network'.

I'm not arguing that they definitely have tributaries, but I think the statement that they 100% don't is premature.

That is fair, it is conceivable, but not likely. Also the damsels do not really have a strong academic or research focus because Bretonia as a whole does not have as much of a one as either the Empire or Kislev.

Tobtorp · Dec 12, 2023

My point was mostly that a peace treaty is never foolproof and if said country really thinks it needs to or can gain enough from attacking a neighbor it will do so, no piece of paper will stop that.
Kislev hasn't attacked the empire because it's still weak after the war on chaos.
Laurelorn did decide it now needed to take action and no treaty would stop it.
Bretonnia (or parravon) saw opportunity and tried to grab it.

Having bretonnia sign a peace treaty might feel nice but I personally will find it ineffective.

Nerdasaurus Rex · Dec 12, 2023

pucflek said:
the relative non-involvement of Laurelorn in outright attack on Empire holdings in at least that long a time

Laurelorn commited a genocide in Nordland not even 20 years ago. The survivors of that attack live down the road from us.

Mopman43 · Dec 12, 2023

pucflek said:
There is a difference between five hundred years of relative peace and standing together in face of annihilation that Kislev has, the relative non-involvement of Laurelorn in outright attack on Empire holdings in at least that long a time, and Pavarron launching an attack right after Great War and then again some sixty or so years ago. Johanns Masters Master fought in that one so i assume it was something like that.

The agression from Bretonnia is far more recent. Its comparing apples and oranges.

I mean, if we're having that discussion, the Eonir literally tried to wipe out like half-a-dozen Nordland villages within the timeframe of the quest.

(Also, it was Johann's Master herself that fought in the 4th Parravon War)

pucflek · Dec 12, 2023

Laurelorn did that with help/agreement of another province, in reclamation of their full rights as ordained by agreements made with ancient electors of Nordland.

That there was genocide is nasty but comparing that to Pavarron wars is apples and oranges in terms of conflict flavour. The entire context is wrong.

Rafin · Dec 12, 2023

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Support for magic users migrating to the Empire

Does this cover explicit support of male magic users, to the point of them being essentially extradited instead of executed when possible (i.e. when they would not be executed under Empire jurisdiction anyway)?

Edit: Should have just looked at the tally first.

[X] [BLOOD] Order (send male magic users to the colleges)

Tobtorp · Dec 12, 2023

pucflek said:
Laurelorn did that with help of another province, in reclamation of their full rights as ordained by agreements made with ancient electors of Nordland.

That there was genocide is nasty but comparing that to Pavarron wars is apples and oranges in terms of conflict flavour.

That laurelorn had good reasons for their actions was never in question. But they did attack part of the empire and only didn't get taken apart by the combined might of the electors because it found a rift it could use.

Bretonnia kinda had it the other way around, a lone duke decided now is a good time to conquer and ran head first into the empires hedgehog instinct of balling up and defending with all might against all comers.

DragonParadox · Dec 12, 2023

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Laurelorn commited a genocide in Nordland not even 20 years ago. The survivors of that attack live down the road from us.

Mopman43 said:
I mean, if we're having that discussion, the Eonir literally tried to wipe out like half-a-dozen Nordland villages within the timeframe of the quest.

(Also, it was Johann's Master herself that fought in the 4th Parravon War)

I regret to inform everyone that this is the fantasy renaissance and genocide is not special, it is not a word that would cross anyone's mind IC. The Bretonians are a larger state than the Eonir, one with greater territorial ambitions and which is not in an alliance with an imperial province, hence they would be seen with more favor by the Empire and those in its service. It sucks but this is the world in which we are playing.

Execute/Dumbo · Dec 12, 2023

Tobtorp said:
My point was mostly that a peace treaty is never foolproof and if said country really thinks it needs to or can gain enough from attacking a neighbor it will do so, no piece of paper will stop that.
Kislev hasn't attacked the empire because it's still weak after the war on chaos.
Laurelorn did decide it now needed to take action and no treaty would stop it.
Bretonnia (or parravon) saw opportunity and tried to grab it.

Having bretonnia sign a peace treaty might feel nice but I personally will find it ineffective.

Y'know what, that's up to you. We probably shouldn't be getting into the weeds of a hypothetical. Say it's a book exchange, or a EIC stake, or a canal though the fucking mountain range. Anything that could help both sides. Because, legitimately, when has Mathilde used a deal, or concessions, to one sidedly take something from the other party? That's a sincere question, I think the closest we got was getting the knighthood?

pucflek · Dec 12, 2023

Tobtorp said:
That laurelorn had good reasons for their actions was never in question. But they did attack part of the empire and only didn't get taken apart by the combined might of the electors because it found a rift it could use.

That "it found a rift it could use" does a lot of heavy lifting in this statement.

They managed to hold one province accountable for its actions with help from another province. Thats not a war, thats vigorous intra-imperial politics. There is a third party actor there but it doesn´t really constitute outside assault the way Pavarron wars did.

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Verified simpleton

It's meow or never

Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak

Verified simpleton

Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak

Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak

Verified simpleton

Verified simpleton