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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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myrix said:
Hey guys, not up to date with discussion so apologies if it's rehashing, was it mentioned as a possibility to ask Eltharion if he would like to tag along with us when we go solve the iron orcs? If we decide to do it and circumstances permitting.
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The Iron Orcs action isn't going to be (or at least shouldn't be) us dropping into their lair and slaughtering them all. It's going to be us trailing behind a group invisibly on a magic horse or in the air and then reporting back for the Bretonnians to deal with. Ideally we never get closer than a speck on the horizon (ignoring for a moment Mathilde's history of scouting actions escalating into mayhem)

Asking the Lord of Tor Yvresse to tag along on a solo reconnaissance mission is kind of a waste of his time even if he did share Mathilde's stealth/speed spec (which I'm not sure he does).
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
The idea that not being maximally altruistic at all times at one's own expense is deserving of derision sure is a take, but it's not one I respect.
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Not at all times, or even for everything Mathilde does, but for this specifically. Mathilde said the benefits of the waystone project will be spread as widely as possible, so that's what should happen. Because she said that, we must go maximum altruistic on this. The only question is how to achieve maximum altruistic.
 
So this is a hard swerve from the current discussion, but it just occurred to me. Can Cython only reproduce with other Hysh dragons? Can they reproduce at all anymore? They mentioned having mates in the past, but like… can Wind Dragons still reproduce with a different wind dragon?
 
Execute/Dumbo said:
So this is a hard swerve from the current discussion, but it just occurred to me. Can Cython only reproduce with other Hysh dragons? Can they reproduce at all anymore? They mentioned having mates in the past, but like… can Wind Dragons still reproduce with a different wind dragon?
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My understanding is that Cython replaced their body and flesh with ice and magic, and as a part of that they made the conscious decision to remove their biological sex (because they don't identify as any gender). Other wind dragons may choose differently, and keep a gender identity of their preference, and I assume that includes all the functions of all the relevent organs, even if those organs are no longer wholy biological.
 
Andres said:
Not at all times, or even for everything Mathilde does, but for this specifically. Mathilde said the benefits of the waystone project will be spread as widely as possible, so that's what should happen. Because she said that, we must go maximum altruistic on this. The only question is how to achieve maximum altruistic.
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I think you're giving far too much weight to a throwaway diplomatic line, and I'll note that this is exactly the sort of thing Boney attempts to avoid tying the players' hands with.

Even having said that, asking Bretonnia to pay for access isn't going to restrict the rollout, unless you envision them refusing.

As far as achieving the most possible good goes, the limiting factor on Waystone distribution is going to be how fast the things can be built, not looking for more places to put them. We aren't going to cover the Empire alone in Waystones for decades, optimistically.
 
And once you merge strongly enough with the essence of magic, it's at least possible that reproduction through other means becomes viable. Biology giving way to metaphysics, Athena emerging from Zeus' forehead, and all that.
 
Execute/Dumbo said:
So this is a hard swerve from the current discussion, but it just occurred to me. Can Cython only reproduce with other Hysh dragons? Can they reproduce at all anymore? They mentioned having mates in the past, but like… can Wind Dragons still reproduce with a different wind dragon?
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...huh, that's a question.

I... hm. If Gods can reproduce (that's a very big if - they can have offspring, but if, say, doing so relies on territorial mechanics, then a creature made of magic who doesn't have a conceptual territory to go with it isn't gonna be able to repeat such a feat), then a creature who remembers being made of flesh might be able to create offspring. (Which may or may not be made of flesh itself?)

Iirc, Cython only said that such distinctions don't matter to it now, which can be read as it having left it, along with procreation, in the past entirely, or as being able to procreate regardless of sex, or as still having something like sex but not caring about it at all? Hysh in particular encourages a detached mindset; maybe a dragon of Ghyran, for example, would have a different answer to the same questions.

(I admit my initial reading, before thinking any more on the matter, had been "Cython can become a parent magically regardless of the partner's sex" which may have been optimistic because y'know Mathilde has a wizard girlfriend, but perhaps I was entirely off the mark)
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
In the Empire, any magic user or potential can request free transportation to Altdorf so they can enroll with the colleges. If they cast spells whilst in the Empire, they'll be arrested and probably handed over to the colleges for judgement and probably conscription. If they touch the bad magic, they are tried for heresy, which can result in execution.

So there's already a process on the Empire's side of the border for getting magic users to Altdorf, except in the case when they have been messing with the bad magic, at which point the torches and pitchforks come out.
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Yes. I essentially want to officially expand that system to Kislev's male population. I haven't been following the thread much so I hastily asked that question before seeing that there was already a write-in that's essentially that.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
My understanding is that Cython replaced their body and flesh with ice and magic, and as a part of that they made the conscious decision to remove their biological sex (because they don't identify as any gender). Other wind dragons may choose differently, and keep a gender identity of their preference, and I assume that includes all the functions of all the relevent organs, even if those organs are no longer wholy biological.
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Sure but I mean like, elementally speaking, if Cython wanted to get it on with an Aqshy dragon… is that happening? Is that just gonna make Dhar or could they actually produce offspring?
 
Rafin said:
Yes. I essentially want to officially expand that system to Kislev's male population. I haven't been following the thread much so I hastily asked that question before seeing that there was already a write-in that's essentially that.
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It's possible that officially acknowledging and supporting the practice could cause the Ice Witches to try to go against it instead of the current 'Lasseiz Faire' approach.

I don't know if it's the same here, but in canon they specifically don't like the practice. Possibly might have to do with their stated reasoning for the restriction being 'men are unsuited to magic', rather than the secret 'the Prophecy'.
 
myrix said:
Hey guys, not up to date with discussion so apologies if it's rehashing, was it mentioned as a possibility to ask Eltharion if he would like to tag along with us when we go solve the iron orcs? If we decide to do it and circumstances permitting.

Don't know lore much, so don't know if it's really possible or just a funny thought, but imagine, during one of his Boney-confirmed probable future visits when there is inevitable slow time and he is just waiting, Mathilde barges into the room and says: "Wanna go fly gank some orc together?"
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He is a major political leader, I don't think he is up for being a murder-hobo.
 
Andres said:
Are the Winds stored in the reproductive organs?
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For someone whose flesh and blood was replaced with magic, the reproductive organs are the Winds. And whatever stored in those organs is, too, the Winds. And that is if those organs exist at all, because why would a dragon-shaped magic creature need organs?
 
Mopman43 said:
Technically, I think they'd be a very Estalian organization.

(Because they're secretly run by the Knights of Magritta, an Estalian-originated 'secret society without a cause')
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Them being Estalian is how you know they're good at their job. You notice how Tilea has to import all its martial talent? Clearly Myrmidia was Estalian! /rabble rousing

Parabola said:
Oh, right. I hope that doesn't cause anyone any proble-

Gets mobbed by the Estalians who believe they are the true inheritors of the Reman Empire and who feel offended at being compared to Tileans
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I mean, who wouldn't be offended at that comparison? Not even Tileans like other Tileans, that's why they keep fighting one another. (There is no need to examine Estalia's history on the matter at this time)

Omegahugger said:
Granted, I had forgotten the Brass Keep which is above Mathilde's paygrade, but even strongholds that need an army to be taken can in fact be taken by Mathilde on her lonesome.

The fact that it's illegal doesn't mean she can't do it.
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Omegahugger, you are a delight and this thread wouldn't be the same without you.
 
Andres said:
I don't think you do. If we've already got waystones up and ready to go and then the Fay Enchantress shows up enthusiastic to help, is it because of the Father or is it her natural reaction? How do we tell the difference? The best time to use the Father is before we give the Fay Enchantress any reason to join up besides pure faith in us.
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I'm actually not that worried about that sort of thing, because if the Father face of the coin effects followers of the Lady then it will effect practically all Bretonnians. Consider the Nordland Hedgefolk:
Boney said:
The villagers proved to be alert enough to spot the Gyrocarriage approaching in enough time to muster a band that could have seen off most airborne predators, but the armed band that was summoned by a lookout seem more curious than wary as you land as far from the buildings as you can and give them plenty of time to see that it's a human clambering out of a Dwarven contraption.
[...]
Between that and the relatively unbothered reception you received when you arrived, you suspect you might have answered half the mystery that Ranald presented you with when you were gifted the fifth face of your Coin.
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While you could conceivably explain away Aksel's reaction as being due to him hearing about Mathilde - not convincingly, but it's at least possible - the reaction of the villagers is pretty obviously magical. Aksel knew who he was talking to and even provided semi-plausible reasons for trusting Mathilde, but the villagers seemed trusting of Mathilde before they even knew who she is.

This is the sort of thing that I expect as to notice if we ever visit Bretonnia with the Father active. If we come into a Bretonnian village riding a steed of shadows and no one really bats an eye I expect Mathilde to take note.
 
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Rafin said:
Yes. I essentially want to officially expand that system to Kislev's male population. I haven't been following the thread much so I hastily asked that question before seeing that there was already a write-in that's essentially that.
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Oh yes, I see. Personally, I don't think it's super necessary—the laws in Kislev forbid men from wielding magic, but that's mostly due to sexism as men are seen as unsuitable at being spellcasters—it's a woman's job (which is not too different from the Druchii's stance on the matter). Since most Kislevians are horse nomads, the journey to the Empire is quite easy, so as long as they don't try to cast magic (especially without training), or annoy any ice witches, they are more or less fine.

Some people suggested a formal agreement to facilitate that, so I added it to the list, but I don't think it's necessary because it wouldn't actually change anything (the government is slower than a lone horseman), and might even antagonise the witches?

But yeah, official support for ensuring potential Kislevian recruits can make it to the Empire is a thing that can be done.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Even having said that, asking Bretonnia to pay for access isn't going to restrict the rollout, unless you envision them refusing.
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Well, yes, because they can't see the value in waystones. There was a very compelling argument three pages earlier that the Bretonnians couldn't possibly contribute anything to the waystone project, which naturally means they've had no interest in waystones all this time, nor any degree of deeper magical understanding we could use to make novel things like with the Hedgecraft tributaries. And naturally, if they've spurned magical learning to such a degree after thousands of years as a goddess's own personal order of magical living saints, they'd soundly refuse to understand why waystones might be good.

Why, we may even have to pay them to accept the waystone knowledge.
 
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Andres said:
Well, yes, because they can't see the value in waystones. There was a very compelling argument three pages earlier that the Bretonnians couldn't possibly contribute anything to the waystone project, which naturally means they've had no interest in waystones all this time, nor any degree of deeper magical understanding we could use to make novel things like with the Hedgecraft tributaries. And naturally, if they've spurned magical learning to such a degree after thousands of years as a goddess's own personal order of magical living saints, they'd soundly refuse to understand why waystones might be good.

Why, we may even have to pay them to accept the waystone knowledge.
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That is a large and rotund straw-man you have there, are you planning to roll it down a hill? :V

The point was that they probably do not know how to make waystones not anything of significant use to us about them, not that they do not understand why they are important. Eike knows waystones are important, it does not mean she has waystone lore that is not a duplicate of what we already have.
 
DragonParadox said:
That is a large and rotund straw-man you have there, are you planning to roll it down a hill? :V

The point was that they probably do not know how to make waystones not anything of significant use to us about them, not that they do not understand why they are important. Eike knows waystones are important, it does not mean she has waystone lore that is not a duplicate of what we already have.
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To be fully clear, my argument wasn't that Bretonnia can't see the value in waystones, it was that your argument was very bad, and that Bretonnia would in fact make good contributions to the waystone project.
 
Andres said:
To be fully clear, my argument wasn't that Bretonnia can't see the value in waystones, it was that your argument was very bad, and that Bretonnia would in fact make good contributions to the waystone project.
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I'm sure they know some things, my point is that they probably do not know things we do not because as we gain more and more information the bar required for useful information goes up. It is not like there is no duplication of information out there. I'm sure the Asur know a bunch of things that are already known by the Eonir in addition to new things and refinements, or if we roped in another runelord they would be worth less because we already have Thorek.
 
Andres said:
To be fully clear, my argument wasn't that Bretonnia can't see the value in waystones, it was that your argument was very bad, and that Bretonnia would in fact make good contributions to the waystone project.
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That is not really a good argument thought?

There is a big zonking circle called Magic, and magical traditions of various overlap are located in that circle, and a good argument could be made that between gathering Sapherian High Mages in exile, Elven magical theorists of Laurelorn, the lore of Belthani in part(Hedgecraft), the Colleges of Magic, Hag Witch Lore and Ice magic contribution, we have covered the bases thoroughly enough that adding damsels to the mix may not exactly be a boon some people expect. Diminishing returns. Its entirely possible that what they could provide has already been covered by someone else. That doesn´t mean that their magical knowledge spread is not impressive thought. Those two statements are not mutually exclusive.

I mean, obviously its possible that Damsels do have a big enough uncovered chunk.

But if the argument you responded to is flawed, yours is not any less so.
 
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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
My understanding is that Cython replaced their body and flesh with ice and magic, and as a part of that they made the conscious decision to remove their biological sex (because they don't identify as any gender). Other wind dragons may choose differently, and keep a gender identity of their preference, and I assume that includes all the functions of all the relevent organs, even if those organs are no longer wholy biological.
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Since Cython has reproduced, and by my impression it wasn't that long ago by Emperor Dragon standards, they operate on Good Omens rules: No gender unless they're making an effort.
 
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