Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Prime 2.0 · Jul 18, 2023

DragonParadox said:
Er... the reason I did not argue with the rest of your post is that I have no issue with it, I was just arguing against expecting the GM to carry our choices, the rest seems entirely reasonable.

...Yes, that's the problem. The rest of my post is there, contextualizing that I am not expecting the GM to carry our choices.

I appreciate that you're telling me you thought the rest was fine now, at least.

Thomasfoolery said:
I don't view it as cherry picking. You're clearly advancing the argument that the relative lameness of an action would influence whether it was offered. That was the core objection I had to your post. So that was what I focused on.

Arguing about the likelihood or utility of stacking effects is a different argument and subject which to my mind is a lot less important the the "meta level" of how voting works.

What I was was saying was explicitly about the likelihood of stacking working. It was window dressing to the same argument, and had nothing to do with options being offered or not. Context is important.

Likewise, someone choosing not to include or respond to any of that context leaves it ambiguous whether any of it was read or comprehended. It also crowds out the majority of what I was wrote in favor of something besides the point, wasting the time I spent on it. Choosing one thing to object to to the exclusion of mentioning or providing oxygen to anything else that was said is the textbook definition of cherrypicking, and it has those effects whatever label is given to it.

If somebody is going to ask that I engage with them or their objections, I don't think it's too much to ask that they fully engage with what I wrote in the first place.

Wiggy · Jul 18, 2023

naths said:
Btw. At the risk of this post getting swamped during voting:

What is the general opinion on mastering our arcane marks? It sounds like it could be useful to me, or am i mistaken?

I really want to try it, but it's hard to argue for over other stuff when we have never done it and don't know what we'll get from it. There's a plan voting for it already though if you want to vote for it. The ascension one.

ReImagined · Jul 18, 2023

naths said:
Btw. At the risk of this post getting swamped during voting:

What is the general opinion on mastering our arcane marks? It sounds like it could be useful to me, or am i mistaken?

I am very much in favor of it, over apparitions, even. But the effect we gain from it isn't flashy or overt, so it doesn't tend to gain much traction over self improvement actions with more obvious effects and utility like branarhune, spell creation, battle magic, apparitions, etc.

picklepikkl · Jul 18, 2023

OK, now that we're at the hour mark, I'm going to winnow down to my favorites:

[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes
[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes and Ranald
[X] Plan Roadmap to Success + Ranald Liminal
[X] Plan Redshirt v3.14159265 w/Riders and Busy Eike
[X] Plan Redshirt v3.14159265 w/Riders
[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes with Seviroscope
[X] Plan Redshirt v3.14159265 w/Riders and Busy Eike & Seviriscope, no speculum
[X] Plan Redshirt v4 (Sevirscope)
[x] Plan Redshirt v4.53236

I like Roadmap just fine and won't be sad if it wins, but I'm dropping my vote to let other things I like more catch up.

Parabola said:
I'm pretty sure Boney said that if we wanted to do a Seviroscope we had to specify whether to do it alone or whether we would try Windherding with Egrimm, so it should be doable with him.

Yup:

Boney said:
You tell me how you'd go about it. If you'd do it with an enchanting, the 'enchant an item' action. If it's Windherding, then Egrimm's 'attempt a Windherding' action. If there's something else you think would work, tell me what that is.

FWIW, I would absolutely vote for plan variants that Windherded a Seviroscope, I think that would be dope. So if someone proposes one, you have my approval vote once I return from lunch.

naths said:
Btw. At the risk of this post getting swamped during voting:

What is the general opinion on mastering our arcane marks? It sounds like it could be useful to me, or am i mistaken?

The general opinion is that it's something we want to do Eventually, but Eventually is difficult to schedule because it's competing with a lot of cool and sexy actions that make us more badass (like sword training or capturing Apparitions) or research nifty magic (we have so many artifacts to study, plus AV to finish!). So it's been difficult for it to get traction. My hope is that once Apparitions are done, we can make a big push for Arcane Marks to be our next self-improvement project, since we won't need to upgrade our killiness.

Romv · Jul 18, 2023

What I would like this turn:
- Waystone Foundation
- Studying the Rubbings (with Eike)
- Liminal realm creation
- Fog Path!
- Copying the Nuln University library
- Windfall paper (with Egrimm getting credit)
- If Apparition hunting, Rider in Red
Anything else is less important to me; so I'm going for:
[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes
Approval voting for:
[X] Plan Roadmap to Success

Edit:

picklepikkl said:
FWIW, I would absolutely vote for plan variants that Windherded a Seviroscope, I think that would be dope. So if someone proposes one, you have my approval vote once I return from lunch.

Well then:
[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes with Seviroscope
-[X] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Rider in Red)
--[X] The Gambler
-[X] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm (Seviroscope)
-[X] MAX: Study an artefact (Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands)
-[X] Attempt to create a liminal realm
-[X] Waystone: Foundation (Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi, Egrimm, Elrisse, Niedzwenka, Zlata)
-[X] Tributary: International (Kislev) (Zlata, Niedzwenka, Aksel, Tochter, Cadaeth)
-[X] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defenses
-[X] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library (Grand University of Nuln)
-[X] SERENITY: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands (Egrimm as primary author)
-[X] COIN: The Gambler (Hunt an apparition)
-[X] Eike Actions: Lustrian books and rubbings study, Windfall paper, Windherder enchanting, EIC negotiation
-[X] Eike Study: Enchanting class at the Grey College (1 CF)

Edit²:
[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes with Seviroscope, sparing Eike somewhat
-[X] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Rider in Red)
--[X] The Gambler
-[X] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm (Seviroscope)
-[X] MAX: Study an artefact (Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands)
-[X] Attempt to create a liminal realm
-[X] Waystone: Foundation (Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi, Egrimm, Elrisse, Niedzwenka, Zlata)
-[X] Tributary: International (Kislev) (Zlata, Niedzwenka, Aksel, Tochter, Cadaeth)
-[X] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defenses
-[X] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library (Grand University of Nuln)
-[X] SERENITY: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands (Egrimm as primary author)
-[X] COIN: The Gambler (Hunt an apparition)
-[X] Eike Actions: Lustrian books and rubbings study, Windfall paper, Windherder enchanting
-[X] Eike Study: Enchanting class at the Grey College (1 CF)

WorldSlayer · Jul 18, 2023

naths said:
Btw. At the risk of this post getting swamped during voting:

What is the general opinion on mastering our arcane marks? It sounds like it could be useful to me, or am i mistaken?

It could be, I expect the most likely outcome is reducing the associated negatives. So for example with the Mantle of Mist mark controlled Mathilde would no longer be extra vulnerable to gas attacks.

There's also an unknown chance of potential positives such as becoming resistant to gas attacks.

It may or may not give insight into magic and soul.

It will probably not have an impact on binding an apparition to Mathilde's soul (the gold's apparantly don't have a problem with their arcane marks but on the other hand Ulgu does seem to be the magic of boundaries and such). Taking a look at an arcane mark before binding apparitions still seems like a good idea to me though. Spending a month poking her soul will if nothing else likely get her more familiar with it in preparation for stapling an apparition onto it.

Basically taking an arcane mark action presumably won't hurt but the benefits seem to range from minor to completely unknown.

So far the only plan that includes taking an arcane mark action that I can see is Path to Ascension.
[] Plan Path to Ascension

Abhorsen · Jul 18, 2023

A seviroscope plan!

[X] Plan Redshirt v3.14159265 w/Riders and Busy Eike & Seviriscope, no speculum
-[X] MAX: Study: Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands
-[X] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Rider in Red)
-[X] EGRIMM: Windherding (Seviroscope)
--[X] COIN: The Gambler
-[X] Waystone: Foundation (Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi, Niedzwenka, Egrimm, Elrisse, Tochter, Zlata)
-[X] Tributary: International (Kislev) (Zlata, Niedzwenka, Aksel, Cadaeth, Tochter)
-[X] Attempt to create a liminal realm
-[X] SERENITY: Write a paper: Windfall Observations, with Egrimm as Primary Author
-[X] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defences.
-[X] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library (Grand University of Nuln)
-[X] Eike Actions: Lustrian Rubbings, Windherding, Windfall Paper, EIC Action
-[X] Eike Study: Enchanting class at the Grey College (1 CF)

[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes with Seviroscope
[x] Plan Redshirt v4 (Sevirscope)

Redshirt Army · Jul 18, 2023

It does seem like people want a Sevirscope, and I can get behind that. Since it's less risky, it probably makes more sense to put the coin on something else - people didn't like the foundation, so I put it on the Liminal Realm action.
I also took Eike off of the Windfall paper and put her on the Fog Bridge, since I don't want to overload her with actions and that action promises to include both diplomatic negotiations and enchanting.

[x] Plan Redshirt v4 (Sevirscope)
-[x] MAX: Study: Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands
-[x] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Whispering Darkness)
-[x] EGRIMM: Windherding (Sevirscope)
-[x] Waystone: Foundation (Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi, Niedzwenka, Egrimm, Elrisse, Tochter, Zlata)
-[x] Tributary: International (Kislev) (Zlata, Niedzwenka, Aksel, Cadaeth, Tochter)
-[x] Attempt to create a liminal realm
--[x] COIN: The Gambler
-[x] SERENITY: Write a paper: Windfall Observations, with Egrimm as Primary Author
-[x] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defences.
-[x] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library. (Grand University of Nuln)
-[x] Eike Actions: Lustrian Rubbings, Windherding, Fog Bridge
-[x] Eike Study: Enchanting class at the Grey College (1 CF)

Approval voting my old plan.

[X] Plan Redshirt v3.14159

DragonParadox · Jul 18, 2023

[x] Plan Redshirt v4 (Sevirscope)

Agent X20 · Jul 18, 2023

Seviroscope idea with Egrimm :Illusion/Eyes of Truth to show someone else what is concealed from them?

Aliya · Jul 18, 2023

[X] Plan Redshirt v3.14159
[x] Plan Redshirt v4 (Sevirscope)

Approval voting both plans.

mathymancer · Jul 18, 2023

The Phoenixian said:
So I missed this conversation but I can't see a resolution to the conversation and this topic is something that's been on my mind for a while.

As far as specificity goes, would "Protecting a liminal realm from unwanted influence (Daemonic)" be in the Hedgewise's ballywick?

I think the end of the conversation is four posts after the second post you quoted, and is Boney saying "maybe, you don't know".

a bunch of posters said:
Sevirscope!

Is this an approved thing to Windherd? What spells are we trying to use? IIRC the original impetus for getting the theory behind Golden Hounds was that something Boney said about the Sevirscope made the thread think that it'll need an intelligent mind, so we wanted to know how the Golds create intelligent minds for making the Sevirscope (and then it turned out they didn't, they bind spooky monsters). Did something change since then regarding what it takes to make a Sevirscope?

Thomasfoolery · Jul 18, 2023

Prime 2.0 said:
What I was was saying was explicitly about the likelihood of stacking working. It was window dressing to the same argument, and had nothing to do with options being offered or not. Context is important.

While you might see it as window dressing, I did not. I found the most important thing you said in it. While also being unambiguously wrong. Which is why I called it out specifically. The rest of your post I could have argued about, but it would have been more in the realm of subjective value judgments and really wasn't relevant to my main issue with your post.

Perhaps I read what you wrote in a way you didn't intend it to be taken, but it seemed pretty clear to me you say it would be lame so Boney wouldn't do it as a point standing on its own. Even the qualifier afterwards that it can do it autonomously doesn't really seem particularly relevant to that belief? At this point I've read your initial a good number of times trying to see where your coming from and it still very much comes across to me as a statement of belief about the level of hand holding Boney would allow.

Prime 2.0 said:
Likewise, someone choosing not to include or respond to any of that context leaves it ambiguous whether any of it was read or comprehended. It also crowds out the majority of what I was wrote in favor of something besides the point, wasting the time I spent on it. Choosing one thing to object to to the exclusion of mentioning or providing oxygen to anything else that was said is the textbook definition of cherrypicking, and it has those effects whatever label is given to it.

If somebody is going to ask that I engage with them or their objections, I don't think it's too much to ask that they fully engage with what I wrote in the first place. It feels icky even explaining all of that, like I'm doing a holier-than-thou sketch, but both of you literally just said you don't understand why selectively focusing on 17 words in the middle of one sentence out of a post of nearly 400 words might be really annoying, impolite, or occasionally used by other people acting in bad faith to marginalize an argument against what they want to vote for.

Personally I do think it's an unreasonable expectation that when replying to someone's post you're required to engage with every aspect of it. Engaging with an argument by selectively quoting things that are addressed elsewhere in the post is unreasonable sure. But to my mind that's not what I was doing. From my PoV there were two aspects of your post. One on the value of stacking effects vs red rider, and one on game design. I felt I was fairly addressing the one on game design.

dinomannitro6 · Jul 18, 2023

[X] Plan Daughters of Lakes and Shadows
-[X] Attempt to bring a non-Order magical tradition into the Waystone Project (Betonnian Damsels)
-[X] Waystone: Nexuses(Forest of Shadows) (Askel)
-[X] Waystone: Foundation (Elrisse, Tochter, Aksel, Hatalath, Cadaeth, Sarvoi, Thorek, Niedzwenka, Zlata, Damsel?)
-[X] MAX: Study: Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands
-[X] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Rider in Red)
-[X] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm: Seviroscope
-[X] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defences
-[X] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library. (Grand University of Nuln)
-[X] Eike Actions: Books and rubbings, Windfall Observations, Windherding, Fog Bridge
-[X] Eike Study: Intrigue (try to steal the hat)
-[X] SERENITY: Write a paper: Windfall Observations, with Egrimm as Primary Author
-[X] The Father

[X] Plan Roadmap to Success
[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes
[X] Plan Path to Ascension
[X] Plan Redshirt v3.14159265 w/Riders and Busy Eike & Seviriscope, no speculum
[] Plan Bring Running Shoes with Seviroscope

LightLan · Jul 18, 2023

Whispering Darkness > Rider in Red

[X] Plan Roadmap to Success w/ Whispering Darkness
-[X] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Whispering Darkness)
--[X] COIN: The Gambler
-[X] MAX: Study an artefact (Lustrian Rubbings)
-[X] Waystone: Mapping (Tilea, Estalia) (Johann)
-[X] Waystone: Foundation (Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi, Niedzwenka, Egrimm, Elrisse, Tochter, Zlata)
-[X] Tributary: International (Kislev) (Zlata, Niedzwenka, Aksel, Cadaeth, Tochter)
-[X] Attempt to create a liminal realm
-[X] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defenses
-[X] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library (Grand University of Nuln)
-[X] SERENITY: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands (Egrimm as primary author)
-[X] Eike Actions: Lustrian Rubbings , Windfall paper, EIC action
-[X] Eike Study: Study tradecraft with the Hochlander

[X] Plan Redshirt v4.53236

Hunter531 · Jul 18, 2023

Angelform said:
So general plan:
Turn 42 (now) – Foundation, Kislev tributaries.
Turn 43 – build waystone, bring in Bretonnia
Turn 44 (overwork) – visit Ulthuan, examine Kislev network
Turn 45 – Negotiate with Ulthuan

I'd personally recommend moving Brettonia to Turn 44. There's a decent chance that the prototype pieces from different magical traditions don't play nice when put together. A nonfunctional Waystone won't exactly boost our negotiating leverage. Perhaps use the freed up AP to get a start on Elfcation turn 43? That should be just in time for the apparition to be ready to go.

Retrueno said:
Honestly I am not sure what could the Cult of Ranald bring to the table, in fact, I am not sure what could any Cult bring the table (except political support I guess).

Although I feel like adding Ranald could advance his interests by helping legalize (? Whatever Heidi wanted to do with Ranald in the Empire) Him.

Cult support will be a lot more helpful once we enter the implementation phase of the Waystone Project. They have military forces which will be helpful in reclaiming lost sites, and securing them once we've got them. The Cult of Taal will be highly useful for this sort of thing.

The benefits of endorsements can't be overlooked either. The current design will be dedicated to a rather sketchy elf deity with a Rune that looks uncomfortably similar to one used by Chaos on top. Holy men saying that they aren't tainted with Dark Magic will be valuable indeed.

Gavin Prince · Jul 18, 2023

Hunter531 said:
Perhaps use the freed up AP to get a start on Elfcation turn 43? That should be just in time for the apparition to be ready to go.

The downside of this is that we then can't use the Gambler on any of the very sensitive T43 actions (Orbs, follow-up Apparition binding, potentially a Waystone Prototype). Whatever side the Coin is in at the start of the Elfcation is the side it will be stuck in for the rest of it. And we want it on the Protector.

DragonParadox · Jul 18, 2023

Hunter531 said:
I'd personally recommend moving Brettonia to Turn 44. There's a decent chance that the prototype pieces from different magical traditions don't play nice when put together. A nonfunctional Waystone won't exactly boost our negotiating leverage. Perhaps use the freed up AP to get a start on Elfcation turn 43? That should be just in time for the apparition to be ready to go.

Cult support will be a lot more helpful once we enter the implementation phase of the Waystone Project. They have military forces which will be helpful in reclaiming lost sites, and securing them once we've got them. The Cult of Taal will be highly useful for this sort of thing.

The benefits of endorsements can't be overlooked either. The current design will be dedicated to a rather sketchy elf deity with a Rune that looks uncomfortably similar to one used by Chaos on top. Holy men saying that they aren't tainted with Dark Magic will be valuable indeed.

To be entirely honest I do not think it makes much sense to plan ahead more than 1 turn or so, too much can happen in the meantime, not just IC, but also in terms of player interest, just look at how little pull there is for the Iron Orcs , even though taking them out was part of the reason why we even had a double sword plan last time. That is not to say it is the fault of anyone, the GM just reminded us that our negotiating position would be changed by being able to make a full Waystone and people reasonably changed their minds

WorldSlayer · Jul 18, 2023

[X] Plan Path to Ascension with Sevirscope
-[X] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Rider in Red)
--[X] COIN: The Gambler
-[X] MAX: Study an artefact (Lustrian Rubbings)
-[X] EGRIMM: Windherding (Sevirscope)
-[X] Waystone: Foundation (Everyone)
-[X] Attempt to gain control of one of your Arcane Marks (Mantle of Mist)
-[X] Attempt to create a liminal realm
-[X] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defenses
-[X] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library (Grand University of Nuln)
-[X] SERENITY: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands (Egrimm as primary author)
-[X] Eike Actions: Lustrian books and rubbings study, Windfall paper, Windherder enchanting, EIC negotiation
-[X] Eike Study: Study tradecraft with the Hochlander

The sevirscope was a pretty cool idea. Nice to see it getting some traction again.

In fact I like it so much I've created a plan that incorporates it.

[X] Plan Path to Ascension

mathymancer · Jul 18, 2023

I'm going to approval vote any Father plan, per my legal obligations:
[X] Plan Daughters of Lakes and Shadows

And while I'm at it I may as well approval vote for some variants of my plan:

[X] Plan Roadmap to Success
[X] Plan Roadmap to Success w/ Whispering Darkness
[X] Plan Roadmap to Success + Ranald Liminal

Nerdasaurus Rex · Jul 18, 2023

[X] Plan Redshirt v3.14159
[X] Plan Redshirt v4 (Sevirscope)

picklepikkl · Jul 18, 2023

mathymancer said:
Is this an approved thing to Windherd? What spells are we trying to use? IIRC the original impetus for getting the theory behind Golden Hounds was that something Boney said about the Sevirscope made the thread think that it'll need an intelligent mind, so we wanted to know how the Golds create intelligent minds for making the Sevirscope (and then it turned out they didn't, they bind spooky monsters). Did something change since then regarding what it takes to make a Sevirscope?

It's previously been confirmed that the Sevir(o)scope idea is something Egrimm could be assigned to work on solo, and we know it's something Mathilde can work on solo, so presumably with Windherding they can both work on it without getting in each other's way. And Boney did say it was a viable Windherding option:

Boney said:
You tell me how you'd go about it. If you'd do it with an enchanting, the 'enchant an item' action. If it's Windherding, then Egrimm's 'attempt a Windherding' action. If there's something else you think would work, tell me what that is.

Honestly, the more I think about it the more I like it, because in conjunction with the Windfall paper and Eike on both actions it has the three of them as a little team, first writing up their observations of magical phenomena via different forms of Windsight and then collaborating on figuring out how to replicate that for people without Windsight. That's the sort of thing that seems likely to help Eike develop hers, even if we don't succeed on making the item in the end. So I think it's worth a shot; it's something sexier than a RS/RS item for folks who want to be more ambitious, but doesn't seem likely to be so ambitious that it blows up in our face. My preferred version is Abhorsen's that has the Coin on the 'scope, because that seems most likely to need it.

Redshirt Army said:
[x] Plan Redshirt v4 (Sevirscope)

Going for v4 instead of v4.53236 smh

Tobtorp · Jul 18, 2023

[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes
[X] Plan Roadmap to Success

Decided to approvel vote running shoes because I like it a tad bit more then roadmap but both do pretty much everything I want right now.

Nurgle · Jul 18, 2023

[X] Plan Path to Ascension with Sevirscope

mathymancer · Jul 18, 2023

picklepikkl said:
It's previously been confirmed that the Sevir(o)scope idea is something Egrimm could be assigned to work on solo, and we know it's something Mathilde can work on solo, so presumably with Windherding they can both work on it without getting in each other's way. And Boney did say it was a viable Windherding option:

Honestly, the more I think about it the more I like it, because in conjunction with the Windfall paper and Eike on both actions it has the three of them as a little team, first writing up their observations of magical phenomena via different forms of Windsight and then collaborating on figuring out how to replicate that for people without Windsight. That's the sort of thing that seems likely to help Eike develop hers, even if we don't succeed on making the item in the end. So I think it's worth a shot; it's something sexier than a RS/RS item for folks who want to be more ambitious, but doesn't seem likely to be so ambitious that it blows up in our face. My preferred version is Abhorsen's that has the Coin on the 'scope, because that seems most likely to need it.

Ok, but Boney's post also says "tell me how you'd go about it". As I understand it Boney is just saying that the exact action depends on the method we want to use, but we still need to give a method. What method are we using? Windherding, ok, but what are we Windherding? What spells/marks/masteries/whatever?

The Speculum idea got explicitly approved by Boney, I think it's best to ask Boney about this idea too.

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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