Kerillian doesn't even say anything and just shrugs as you all depart the castle, to the point that once you reach the milling crowds of the city outside she just disappears.

(Keeping An Eye: 69+Frederick Martial(18)=87/100)

The difficulty must have been extremely high to keep sight of her if 87 wasn't high enough. Which I guess makes sense.

"Well-," Urgdug says before his eyes bug out as his fifteen foot height lets him see something before the rest of you do.

You know, I always underestimate Urgdug's height in my head. I know he's big, of course, but I tend to think of him as ten feet high. Maybe twelve. It's always startling to think of him as fifteen feet tall, what I'd think of as a "giant" though of course WHF giants are bigger still.

Ally Aid Assumptions
[] Yes: Someone, you aren't sure who, has begun floating the idea of sending some of your vitally important troops away from Salkalten and towards Nordland in case they need help. Despite the fact that there are potentially two Black Arks heading towards you, and that the Eonir are likely to be far more readily available to help them, you've heard whispers of perhaps sending one of the Vapor Tanks west instead of remaining to fight the Druchii in Ostland. Or more. On the one hand, it could be a strong emphasis on the allied nature of the Northern Trident. On the other, it could remove vital forces from Ostland. (If Chosen, Write-In How Many, If Any, Ostland Forces West)
[] No: You need every single one of your troops here. You do not wish to denigrate Stephan, but it is entirely possible that the harder fight will indeed be here in Ostland. Stephan is not sending troops to you, and you are not sending troops to him. Ostermark is the one splitting her forces between the two of you.

An idea floated by "someone" and Freddy isn't sure who? Frederick has "heard whispers"? That sets off a lot of alarm bells for me. Makes me wonder if there's some kind of unnatural mental influence going on. I mean, the number of people who are going to directly give the Elector Count advice on his military deployments is pretty small. If one of our advisors were reporting popular sentiment, that would make sense. If it's something Freddy overheard people saying on the street, that would make sense. But this is just phrased in a way that makes my hair stand up on end.

Anyone else a little worried?
 
Another extremely morbid plus to the bombers that I almost feel bad about thinking, if the Druchii do bring along Hydras, Dragons, etc., Flagellants with bombs strapped to them will make for explosive and likely lethal meals
 
Made some plans

[] Plan: Sound the Drums of War + Allow
-[] Allow Anna:
-[] No:
-[] Call North:
--[] Call Knights of the North, Star Knights, Raven Knights of Morr/Black Guard of Morr, The Bull Warriors

[] Plan: Sound the Drums of War + Refuse
-[] Refuse Anna
-[] No:
-[] Call North:
--[] Call Knights of the North, Star Knights, Raven Knights of Morr/Black Guard of Morr, The Bull Warriors,

[] Plan: Defence in Depth + Refuse
-[] Refuse Anna:
-[] No:
-[] Call North:
--[] Call Knights of the North, Star Knights, Raven Knights of Morr/Black Guard of Morr

[] Plan: Defence in Depth + Allow
-[] Allow Anna:
-[] No:
-[] Call North:
--[] Call Knights of the North, Star Knights, Raven Knights of Morr/Black Guard of Morr

Absolutely against sending anything to nordland we got 2 black arks heading our way we need everything we can get and they got there own armies, they have compelty evucated the coast they got the enoir right next to them ready to help at a certain point you got to focus on your house if you don't want it to burn down.

the only difference between the top 2 and the bottom 2 is that we keep the bull warriors in reserve in jejow to act as a rapid reaction force which if druchi get past the coast they can quickly intercept them in the bottom 2. Then the top has us call everyone except longshanks cause I don't think they will be that helpful in a city tbh let them roam the forest and make life hell for any druchii that pop in the forest

edit: got rid of the white wolf cause of the note in the update they are doing there own thing don't want them to be put in a bad spot they will be protecting something either way
 
Last edited:
"He is my finest work," she sighed dreamily. "My beautiful Knight of Treachery. And you think I would give him up to you? No, no," her head leaned back against the cold ice and she looked away from him. "He will be my legacy. The pain he will carve into the world…how glorious it will be," her voice had fallen to a whisper by then.
"Of all the monsters I have created, I still regard Darth Vader as something of a minor masterpiece. No, he was not an entirely alchemical creation, but he was my monster nevertheless. Even though he failed to live up to his full potential, there was much pleasure in transforming Anakin Skywalker from a bright-eyed, tousle-headed youth into the greatest Jedi killer of all time. Yes, he ultimately turned against his Master, as monsters sometimes do, but that was my fault, not his. Given the opportunity to create Vader again, I would, and with zeal."
Darth Sidious, in The Creation of Monsters[src]
Probably just a coincidence and not a deliberate reference, but it's what came to my mind when reading it.
 
Whatever happens, I'm for allowing Anna to do it. This isn't a time to be moral. This is a time to engage in the cold calculus of war and we need to bleed the Druchii of their numbers. For the Flagellents, many whom already have prior injuries or are already lacking limbs in addition to being much weaker than the Druchii, this is the most effective way for them to do damage against them.

Remember, in war, you are supposed to make sure it's the other poor bastard who dies and not you. Sort out your morality/philosophy/ethics/whatever later, when you have the luxury. In war, you don't have that option, especially wars like these.
 
Can vote now.

[X] Plan Bombers, Soup Tank and Knights
-[X] Allow Anna
-[X] Yes (Send Soup Tank and Ogre Ironblaster to Nordland since they are just sitting in school)
-[X] Call North (Bull Warriors, Knights Raven, and Black Guard)


Until GM says otherwise that not possible going with this plan.

Edit: GM says can't send Ironblaster and would be dangerous to send soup tank.
 
Last edited:
A a favor strategy of mine in TWWH is to use Flagelants as a speed bump to buy time for my artillery and Battle Wizard to rain down hell on the advancing enemy. Is it cruel and callous? Most would say yes, but for the flagellants it is glorious martyrdom. They die in a literal blaze of glory and martyrdom, their death spent to fazilite devastating casualties to the enemies of the Empire and Sigmar.

Why to I mention it? Because tactically the Flagellants are and always have been suicide troops, one way ot another. They don't have proper armor, something that they don't even want to use, their weapons range on quality from "affordable" to whatever rocks they pick up or their bare hands. Their training, if they even have any, will be thrown out the window along with their sense of self preservation. Their discipline is that why will run at whatever they are orderd to charge till they or they targets are all dead at or stand and fight to the last dying man or woman. No rom for anything complex here. Their bodys (depending on how long they have survived) are keeped going by nothing else than shear gritt, faith, madnes and perhaps a drop or divine will. They do not make for effective soldier beyond their unbreakable moral and wish for bloody martyrdom. Holding the enemy down and buying time is all they are good for on the battelfield. Giving them explosives to suicide bomb the enemy is basically a more streamlined version of using them as a meat shield and tar pits so that the artillery have time line up shots. All Anna is doing is to allow the Flagellants to do the same job but without the help of artillery. Either way the Flagellants are dead men/women walking and nothing besides a divine miracle is going to change that.

It also best to let the insanely mad zealots with martyrdom complexes die in a blaze of glory than to further risk losing and let the Dark elves even touch the civilians.
And speaking of the civilians, and the nobles and elector counts for that mater. I don't think they will care that much. The insane zealus martydom complex of the Flagellants are well know, and victory will wash away any perceived sin.
 
Last edited:
[] Plan: Sound the Drums of War + Allow
-[X] Allow Anna:
-[X] No:
-[X] Call North:
--[X] Call Knights of the North, Star Knights, Raven Knights of Morr/Black Guard of Morr, The Bull Warriors

[] Plan: Sound the Drums of War + Refuse
-[X] Refuse Anna
-[X] No:
-[X] Call North:
--[X] Call Knights of the North, Star Knights, Raven Knights of Morr/Black Guard of Morr, The Bull Warriors,

[] Plan: Defence in Depth + Refuse
-[X] Refuse Anna:
-[X] No:
-[X] Call North:
--[X] Call Knights of the North, Star Knights, Raven Knights of Morr/Black Guard of Morr

[] Plan: Defence in Depth + Allow
-[X] Allow Anna:
-[X] No:
-[X] Call North:
--[X] Call Knights of the North, Star Knights, Raven Knights of Morr/Black Guard of Morr

[X] Plan: Defence in Depth + Allow
-[X] Allow Anna:
-[X] No:
-[X] Call North:
--[X] Call Star Knights, Bull Warriors, Raven Knights of Morr/Black Guard of Morr
 
Last edited:
I really don't think we should send anything to Nordland. Sure they have a smaller army, but they're already being helped by all of Laurelorn. Plus half of Ostermark. And it's not unlikely we're being exclusively targeted by the Druchii, because of the Arcane Fulcrum.
Not to mention that these few more troops could be far more decisive in an open battle in Salkalten than following Nordland's strategy of abandoning the coast.

On the knights, I agree with what has been said: send the mounted ones to support the Army of the Forest from Jegow, to act as quick response to any eventuality, and bring the rest to Salkalten.

And on the flagellants... Ugh. I really don't like it, but these guys were already suicide fighters anyway, and desperate circumstances require desperate measures. Let's do it, and hope we don't have to resort to it ever again.

[X] Plan: Defence in Depth + Allow
-[X] Allow Anna:
-[X] No:
-[X] Call North:
--[X] Call Knights of the North, Star Knights, Raven Knights of Morr/Black Guard of Morr
 
Got to remember that this could very well be a fight for all of the province and in war sometimes cold decisions have to be made. What's better letting them die and accomplish next to nothing (the most likely result) or letting them die and taking out a bunch of khaine followers and possibly killing some monsters. Got to remember that it isn't like fighting beastmen or forest goblins where flagellants could hold their own these are dark elves that could easily kill them all and loose next to nothing.
 
Last edited:
How many would-be could-be priests do you figure there are among the flagellants? The magic wielding or non-magic kind? How many engineers? How many soldiers? How many masons, carpenters, loggers, tinkers, nurses, teachers, etc. brought to their lowest by the circumstances of their lives and world? How many people who might, from a strictly utilitarian perspective, have potentially served Ostland and the Empire to a far greater extent in any other capacity than serving as suicidal meat shields or living bombs? Flagellants were always going to have been a tragedy, however utilized, whoever they potentially could have been already lost.

The best outcome for flagellants is for them not to have become flagellants at all, but we're too late for that, for these. And in a world such as Warhammer, there will always be further circumstances that will cause more people to become like flagellants. And yet, I also strongly agree with the sentiment that incentivizing the use of flagellants by making them more efficient for our purposes is setting a grim precedent to be followed by those who will give far less consideration to their use. Freddy is recognized as a hero of the Empire, chosen by Sigmar himself. Who knows how many crazies, or merely those cold and calculating with authority, will take up this tactic with gusto upon hearing that he condoned it? Encouraging their own downtrodden, whatever their condition, to go out in a blaze of glory in a similar fashion? The more 'useful' or 'efficient' the flagellants become, the less incentive their is for trying to staunch their existence at all.

And Freddy loves his people, flagellants and all! He has himself charged suicidally forward in the face of foes that defy believe again and again! Few of those who might mimic him would be of such character! Few would do as he does, spending enormous amounts on the cults for the explicit care of their people, the hospitals, the Kitchens, providing magical healing to those most dire (though note worthily, those most useful), as Freddy's Ostland does. It doesn't matter that the idea was our daughters. It doesn't matter that other factions do it, so other imperials could independently come up with the idea. Because Freddy is Freddy, and by condoning this decision the masses both here and far may easily interpret it as his decision alone unless we decide to broadcast that 'oh no, it was actually my daughter's decision!'. Fuck that.

I recognize the utility of the decision in the current circumstances, but Freddy has made so many mistakes by not considering the optics and long-term consequences of his decision, and I would love if we'd stop doing that. And we cannot measure what damaged will be caused in far less dire circumstances if we condone suicide bombers in such and extreme one. We can't pretend that this tactic will only be used in times of greatest and most desperate need. It's already going to happen in some measure, why do we need to condone and thus encourage it further?

I get that Flagellants are of limited effectiveness against Dark Elves as it is due to the sheer difference in abilities, but I would like to note that we're already going to benefit from the practice just with the few scattered bombers that are going to be mixed among the flagellants already. Once the Dark Elves put 2 and 2 together after a few bombs go off, they will realize that any of the remaining flagellants could be so equipped, which means that that much more ranged fire and attention is going to be payed to the flagellants either way, allowing the traditional flagellants to perform their usual role all the better, by taking heat off of those units that are better equipped for actually putting the dark elves and their monstrous menageries down.

The horrors of the warhammer world are more than we could ever truly stop, and suicidal warriors will always exist to some degree. So many of these flagellants are ineffective and unarmed because the world cares not for them and we can't help every suffering person in Ostland. Does that mean we should not try? Cause it's going to happen anyway? Imagine if even just some of these people had access to the magical healing we deal out to our favorites and most effectives in droves. How many more would be better fit, or better equipped, to fight and die just as suicidally, but so much the more effectively? It's too late to mend and equip these flagellants so, and some bombs have already been promised, but rather than condoning practices that encourage others to use their downtrodden as ammunition, should we not rather encourage policies that flagellants rarer and less necessary?

Isn't a big part of what makes Freddy special the fact that he tries his hardest to help, when others would not? Has he not seen, time and again, the tragedy of Slayers, who might have better served Karaz Ankor through other means, spend their lives more quickly before the eyes of Grimnir? And we can't pretend that flagellants are anywhere near the effectiveness of slayers, though perhaps with sufficient support, planned well in advance, they someday could be. Hell, Freddy with his dwarf cred could probably organize something like that, a new sort of order by which those who have lost themselves could spend their lives with greater purpose. Just a musing.

I was on the fence when I read the chapter, but having thought about it and typed all this out, I can't condone supporting suicide bombers at this time. Maybe it'd give us a slightly better chance at surviving, maybe it will prove more effective than anticipated, but it working out well would not necessarily be a good thing for the future it would lead to.

Oh, and on an unrelated note, the comments on ogres and age have stirred up an idea for an omake I've had for quite some time now. Might bother to actually type it out in the near future, will have to see.
 
[X] Plan: Sound the Drums of War + Allow
-[X] Allow Anna:
-[X] No:
-[X] Call North:
--[X] Call Knights of the North, Star Knights, Raven Knights of Morr/Black Guard of Morr, The Bull Warriors
 
[X] Plan Flood Plains and Forest.
-[X] Allow Anna
-[X] No, Send some contingents from Ostermark that were flagged for us when they arrive.
-[X] Call North: All mounted orders. Non-mounted orders to stay in the south.
 
Last edited:
[X] Plan: Defence in Depth + Allow
-[X] Allow Anna:
-[X] No:
-[X] Call North:
--[X] Call Knights of the North, Star Knights, Raven Knights of Morr/Black Guard of Morr
 
[X] Plan Bombers, Soup Tank and Knights
-[X] Allow Anna
-[X] Yes (Send Soup Tank and Ogre Ironblaster to Nordland since they are just sitting in school)
-[X] Call North (Bull Warriors, Knights Raven, and Black Guard)
 
[X] Refuse Anna:
[X] No:
[X] Call North (Bull Warriors, Knights Raven, and Black Guard)

Not sure whether to send other forces off or not, not sure which Knightly Orders to call up. Am sure about not going with Anna's suggestion though. I don't want Frederick to set this example for anybody else, and I don't want to make it easier or more lucrative or more tempting to use suicidal troopers.
 
[X] Plan: Sound the Drums of War + Allow / No north Star
-[X] Allow Anna:
-[X] No:
-[X] Call North:
--[X] Call Raven Knights of Morr/Black Guard of Morr, The Bull Warriors


I prefer to keep Knights of the North Star South as mobile reserve / potential asset for the Beasttide, so here is a version of Woltaire's plan that does exactly that.
 
I think if we're calling knights we should leave the Bull Warriors in place and call up the ones from Wulfenburg. The capital is further from the present conflict and well defended besides, while the Bull Warriors are based in an area that is less well defended and closer to the conflict (and thus better able to protect the vulnerable if the beastmen decide to strike now)

[X] Plan: Mindful Defense
-[X] Refuse Anna:
-[X] No:
-[X] Call North (Knights of the North Star, Knights Raven, and Black Guard)
 
Last edited:
@torroar can we send the knights to aid Nordland as part of our alliance obligations , the Knights of the north star have done done fuck all for Freddy since day one so its high time for them be useful maybe sending them to Nordland while calling the bull warriors to us , Nordland could use the mobility of the a more typical knightly order of the north Star since they will be protecting the large area of all their coast from the dark elf fleet while the more infantry focused bull warriors will be of greater use city fighting

They already have a Chapterhouse of the Knights of the North Star. Plus I'm...reasonably sure the KotNS also fought during the Vampire War. I know that they're constantly patrolling Ostland alongside the other Knightly Orders and the Army of the Forest and Army of the Range. They've been pretty low key, but they're not just sitting in their Chapterhouse. Their knightly oaths compel them to deploy basically constantly.

I don't disagree with this, but also, the fact that the Battle Pilgrims are used to represent the Guardians of La Maisontaal suggests they, the Battle Pilgrims that is, run a considerable gamut of sanity.

I differentiate between Grail Pilgrims and Battle Pilgrims. The former are the suicidal, insane, crush Grail Knights to death/refuse them medical treatment out of misplaced fervor as they prop them up in reliquaries, sorts. The Battle Pilgrims are the ones that are actually trained, religious templars, with armor and weapons/shields, formations, with presence of mind to act on the field of battle in some accordance of sense.

The sort of organizational equivalent of Templar Knights of Sigmar versus Flagellants, basically. But obviously not in those terms, not least of all because it's...well, Bretonnia.

As for the Flagellant Suicide Bombers? These are honestly surprising. Why did you give us this option @torroar?

Because Anna, cold, emotionless, near-robotic Anna, looked at the Flagellants and was flatly incapable of considering them anything of worth in combat, and considered them drains on resources without corresponding reward in battle. As such, she took it upon herself to refine and remake what she considered essentially defective and make them capable of contributing in a manner that might prove statistically relevant in the battle to come.

It took her a moment, even when her parents arrived, to mentally reassess and locate the correct catalogue of memories and emotions displayed by others so that she could determine how she should actually respond, as well as how they in particular were responding.

She does not get sad. She does not feel pity. She does not feel guilty. She technically remembers what it was to feel those things, but she has to actively go back in her own head and memories, and essentially 'look up' the definition of those emotions with a few photographs to look at. Whenever she is not actively prompting herself to do so, like when she is around family and friends, this is not a process she is actively maintaining.

BTW @torroar will you tell us the numbers of irregulars (militia, noble households, merchant guards etc) in an update?

It's an 'in flux' sort of thing. You can call the militia, if you like, but that will pull them all out of their settlements throughout the province. Merchant guards are guarding themselves and their merchants, and you can try conscripting them, but that likely won't go well. Nobles are shoring up their own defenses, rallying to defend their castles and lands alongside the militia.
 
Back
Top