Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
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I tried being bold. I tried being creative. No one was interested. You might say I was more in the 'insane' category than 'bold'. That's fine; as long as it sparked any sort of creativity from the other participants, that would have been sufficient. But it should be clear either way that I don't do 'passive and defeatist'.
I'm not being defeatist here, I'm being realistic. This battle is lost. Pretending it has not been is not being bold, it's being foolishly blind. The question is, do you continue to beat this dead horse and ruin whatever image you've built up, or do you pick up the pieces and move to the next battle, hopefully better armed and better prepared?
False equivalence.
If Rin and Sakura did another healing run through Mitakihara, that would be a violation of the agreement. Does that mean they brought the war to Mitakihara?
All actions that take them through Mitakihara violate the agreement. All actions that violate the agreement give us leverage against them. Not all actions that take them through Mitakihara bring the war to it. You are claiming a logically fallacious conclusion.
Yes, Akiko will try to manipulate the letter of the agreement. Do you think threats on our part suddenly make her less capable of violating the agreement in subtle and blame-shifting ways?
- Location
- ⇙
To all the renegade people:
How do you intend to explain the high number of magical girls involved that is about double the number of the current girls in this mess?
If you don't explain it, where did you suddenly get that number from?
Stating numbers that contradict the current situation without a source, is simply not very convincing.
I honestly think that convincing Akiko is a lost cause at the moment. We are beating a dead horse in that regard.
We already mentioned casualities and that the University group has been gathering more allies.
She doesn't care about that one bit. She made up her mind.
In regards to sowing doubt in Sakura and Rin.
I have to agree with @Kinematics: they are already doubting. That Sakura made that "we stay out of Mitakihara" concession even against Akiko's wishes proves that. Rin fidgeting nervously in the background during our discussion proves that as well.
Getting angry and aggressive isn't helping us in that regard.
We got them to doubt by coming across as a reasonable, if maybe naive, person, starting to shout or suddenly acting aggressive may change that view of us.
While I agree that we have to make clear that Mitakihara is off limits, the current wording proposes a kill all unknown magical girls on sight order.
Getting angry and loud, because someone doesn't listen to our warnings, is not going to make them listen.
While this will show Akiko that we are not to be pushed around and underestimated, it also destroys most of the goodwill we had with them.
How do you intend to explain the high number of magical girls involved that is about double the number of the current girls in this mess?
If you don't explain it, where did you suddenly get that number from?
Stating numbers that contradict the current situation without a source, is simply not very convincing.
I honestly think that convincing Akiko is a lost cause at the moment. We are beating a dead horse in that regard.
We already mentioned casualities and that the University group has been gathering more allies.
She doesn't care about that one bit. She made up her mind.
In regards to sowing doubt in Sakura and Rin.
I have to agree with @Kinematics: they are already doubting. That Sakura made that "we stay out of Mitakihara" concession even against Akiko's wishes proves that. Rin fidgeting nervously in the background during our discussion proves that as well.
Getting angry and aggressive isn't helping us in that regard.
We got them to doubt by coming across as a reasonable, if maybe naive, person, starting to shout or suddenly acting aggressive may change that view of us.
While I agree that we have to make clear that Mitakihara is off limits, the current wording proposes a kill all unknown magical girls on sight order.
Getting angry and loud, because someone doesn't listen to our warnings, is not going to make them listen.
While this will show Akiko that we are not to be pushed around and underestimated, it also destroys most of the goodwill we had with them.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
All votes have a point that I see:
Kinematics gets a situation update from Oriko, and chooses to use our offered 'favor' immediately, perhaps in order to give us time to move, since Sakura's got us beat there unless Homura can and chooses to run all the way from Mitakihara. This last part poses a bit of a problem: We lose a bajillion Homura points. Beyond gaining hope that things will go alright and stating that she expects us back soon, she's actually letting other people deal with things. On the flipside, this conflict is not one she really cares about, so she could just go: No, I'm not running for these troublesome strangers that won't affect Mitakihara any longer than the non-second it takes me to put a bullet in their gems.
SynchronizedWritersBlock's vote is concise and simple. It sets up simple rules for the time being. Simple rules are better than complex rules since we are the newbie here, and part of why we're losing so much and gaining so little is that Akiko is likely the mastermind behind this conflict. We've come hoping to find help, but we may just be asking it of our ultimate enemy, here. And she knows a lot more about this than we do.
Sightedjt's vote pushes a bit harder for making Rin and Sakura doubt Akiko, which I think is worth doing, but perhaps not that much, since people seem so opposed to it. Maybe if we make the accusation one sentence long move onto another point before they can challenge it?
...
I think I'm abstaining from voting today. I'm too sleepy to do more than throw ideas right now:
(Seriously, don't take me too seriosuly for these)
[] "I wonder how do you benefit from this... 'skirmish'/bloodbath/30odd magical girl pileup. You'll answer for any deaths you are causing.
[] "That is, if I can't keep every single Magical Girl from dying. A tall order, I know, it might require extreme measures."
[] "Other than that, I'll take you offer of not stepping into Mitakihara unless you can avoid it, considering how easy it will be to avoid it. I'll also let my less diplomatic compatriots of your offer of non-involvement for our city."
[] "Actually, make that a thing. Mitakihara is not involved, it's neutral. You, or anybody else, may enter, as long as you/they're not part of bloody conflict. This one, or any other."
Another thing we can add:
[] "For the time being, I'm retracting my services."
Kinematics gets a situation update from Oriko, and chooses to use our offered 'favor' immediately, perhaps in order to give us time to move, since Sakura's got us beat there unless Homura can and chooses to run all the way from Mitakihara. This last part poses a bit of a problem: We lose a bajillion Homura points. Beyond gaining hope that things will go alright and stating that she expects us back soon, she's actually letting other people deal with things. On the flipside, this conflict is not one she really cares about, so she could just go: No, I'm not running for these troublesome strangers that won't affect Mitakihara any longer than the non-second it takes me to put a bullet in their gems.
SynchronizedWritersBlock's vote is concise and simple. It sets up simple rules for the time being. Simple rules are better than complex rules since we are the newbie here, and part of why we're losing so much and gaining so little is that Akiko is likely the mastermind behind this conflict. We've come hoping to find help, but we may just be asking it of our ultimate enemy, here. And she knows a lot more about this than we do.
Sightedjt's vote pushes a bit harder for making Rin and Sakura doubt Akiko, which I think is worth doing, but perhaps not that much, since people seem so opposed to it. Maybe if we make the accusation one sentence long move onto another point before they can challenge it?
...
I think I'm abstaining from voting today. I'm too sleepy to do more than throw ideas right now:
(Seriously, don't take me too seriosuly for these)
[] "I wonder how do you benefit from this... 'skirmish'/bloodbath/30odd magical girl pileup. You'll answer for any deaths you are causing.
[] "That is, if I can't keep every single Magical Girl from dying. A tall order, I know, it might require extreme measures."
[] "Other than that, I'll take you offer of not stepping into Mitakihara unless you can avoid it, considering how easy it will be to avoid it. I'll also let my less diplomatic compatriots of your offer of non-involvement for our city."
[] "Actually, make that a thing. Mitakihara is not involved, it's neutral. You, or anybody else, may enter, as long as you/they're not part of bloody conflict. This one, or any other."
Another thing we can add:
[] "For the time being, I'm retracting my services."
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- Location
- ⇙
Okay, made a new vote option by cannibalizing most of the current options. Let me hear what you think. If there are any inconsistencies or contradictions feel free to change it around. I tried to make our intentions clear, without getting to aggressive:
[]On Mikitahara: If you can? No, fuck that. The war stays *out* of Mitakihara, end of story. Mitakihara is not involved, it stays neutral. You, or anybody else, may enter, as long as they're not part of the conflict and have been granted permission.
[] The others still defending it won't give you a warning like I did. Remember that.
[]Then one more thing, Akiko. We intend to end this fighting before anyone ends up dead. That means paying every group involved a visit like this one. If that isn't enough, we will use any means necessary. I hope you understand. You should also consider the other members of your group before comitting to further conflicts.
[]For the time being, I'm retracting my services. Mami, Kirika, let's go.
Edit: I'm not happy with the order, but I don't know which order is better. The Mitakihara part should be first, since it is a direct response to the previous statements. But the remember that part would work better near the end. Since Arafan pointed it out below retracting our services would need an explantion any ideas?
This counts as an explanation for the time being I suppose.
[]On Mikitahara: If you can? No, fuck that. The war stays *out* of Mitakihara, end of story. Mitakihara is not involved, it stays neutral. You, or anybody else, may enter, as long as they're not part of the conflict and have been granted permission.
[] The others still defending it won't give you a warning like I did. Remember that.
[]Then one more thing, Akiko. We intend to end this fighting before anyone ends up dead. That means paying every group involved a visit like this one. If that isn't enough, we will use any means necessary. I hope you understand. You should also consider the other members of your group before comitting to further conflicts.
[]
Edit: I'm not happy with the order, but I don't know which order is better. The Mitakihara part should be first, since it is a direct response to the previous statements. But the remember that part would work better near the end.
This counts as an explanation for the time being I suppose.
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Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
We just fucking said we wouldn't. We can't go back on it in the next breath.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
The idea when I first proposed that read: "I'll do it, once." There was some more stuff about attaching strings o renegotiating the deal but it got lost in transition, since my wording was a bit silly, and we didn't want Mami to panic or something.
The point was that we fulfilled our word already, and would no further than that.
- Location
- Southern Virginia
Really? All this rage because Akiko won't react the way we wanted her to?
Remember that Sabrina is butting into her business uninvited. Their prior interaction, at the healing of Masami, could have easily turned into a complete and utter disaster even though we managed to luck out in the end. Sabrina is erratic, unpredictable, and powerful, with no apparent motives for her actions. I mean at best Sabrina comes off in those interactions as some kind of chuuni "ally of justice," which hardly buttresses her authority when she makes a really general claim that "OMG this fighting is bad and it'll kill people."
Akiko and the rest have no reason to believe Sabrina knows what she is talking about. Her sentiments about stopping the war are, without the context of Oriko's vision, naive do-gooding. Akiko has been skirmishing with these blocks for two years now, she knows how it goes, and there's nothing to alarm her about it yet. And not all conflicts happen because two sides just fail to communicate; it's obvious there are serious grudges at stake. Sendai may be mostly responsible but we don't bloody well know that, and it's just as possible Ishinomaki and the Tohoku University Group were just as much at fault, or at least substantially responsible due to their unwillingness to come to terms. And of course the war started in a premeditated ambush of the Sendai group, which rather understandably would motivate their members to want vengeance. Frankly I'm pretty sure if we were playing Akiko, there'd be a substantial voter base for just killing Sabrina outright for being too annoying.
I see absolutely nothing suspicious or particularly evil in Akiko failing to just fall in line with Sabrina when she's been given no reason to do so. And it's probably too late to pull out the precognition card to back up Sabrina's claims or to use Walpurgisnacht as a "greater threat" to force the group to put aside their differences to fight. But as lame as that might come off as, it's probably still better than threatening Akiko for basically no reason and at the same time openly stating we consider her promises and pledges to be worthless. Sabrina really will come off as dangerously schizophrenic at that point, and in any case either Sendai will respect their pledge or they won't and we can deal with that when it happens. It's too late to try to claim an aggressive neutrality, anyway.
And the budding general thrust seems to be to play von Wulfenbach/Victor von Doom or whatever to enforce a peace using our powers. To which I say, good luck trying to keep Sabrina's will imposed on twenty-something willful Magical Girls with their own powers. That's the kind of story that ends with "sic semper tyrannus" as a moral.
Remember that Sabrina is butting into her business uninvited. Their prior interaction, at the healing of Masami, could have easily turned into a complete and utter disaster even though we managed to luck out in the end. Sabrina is erratic, unpredictable, and powerful, with no apparent motives for her actions. I mean at best Sabrina comes off in those interactions as some kind of chuuni "ally of justice," which hardly buttresses her authority when she makes a really general claim that "OMG this fighting is bad and it'll kill people."
Akiko and the rest have no reason to believe Sabrina knows what she is talking about. Her sentiments about stopping the war are, without the context of Oriko's vision, naive do-gooding. Akiko has been skirmishing with these blocks for two years now, she knows how it goes, and there's nothing to alarm her about it yet. And not all conflicts happen because two sides just fail to communicate; it's obvious there are serious grudges at stake. Sendai may be mostly responsible but we don't bloody well know that, and it's just as possible Ishinomaki and the Tohoku University Group were just as much at fault, or at least substantially responsible due to their unwillingness to come to terms. And of course the war started in a premeditated ambush of the Sendai group, which rather understandably would motivate their members to want vengeance. Frankly I'm pretty sure if we were playing Akiko, there'd be a substantial voter base for just killing Sabrina outright for being too annoying.
I see absolutely nothing suspicious or particularly evil in Akiko failing to just fall in line with Sabrina when she's been given no reason to do so. And it's probably too late to pull out the precognition card to back up Sabrina's claims or to use Walpurgisnacht as a "greater threat" to force the group to put aside their differences to fight. But as lame as that might come off as, it's probably still better than threatening Akiko for basically no reason and at the same time openly stating we consider her promises and pledges to be worthless. Sabrina really will come off as dangerously schizophrenic at that point, and in any case either Sendai will respect their pledge or they won't and we can deal with that when it happens. It's too late to try to claim an aggressive neutrality, anyway.
And the budding general thrust seems to be to play von Wulfenbach/Victor von Doom or whatever to enforce a peace using our powers. To which I say, good luck trying to keep Sabrina's will imposed on twenty-something willful Magical Girls with their own powers. That's the kind of story that ends with "sic semper tyrannus" as a moral.
Cannongerbil
I came here to nep at you
- Location
- Soviet Lunar Base
Guys, I think you are focusing a little on the wrong things here. We don't care about getting Akiko's to promise not to bring the war to mitakihara, because she cannot enforce such a promise. She doesn't know it yet, and she may think she does, but she can't. Let me reiterate, the Sendai group aren't the primary aggressors in this conflict. They don't have control over which direction the fighting goes. The best we can get from them is a promise not to call in anymore groups.
Also, why the hell are we heading straight for the aggressive vote? Akiko's may be hiding something, but for the most part our negotiations went pretty well, even with the headpats,and right now we gain nothing by calling her out on that except to satisfy our ego. Let's not burn our bridges just yet because we don't like the way she is talking to us.
Also, why the hell are we heading straight for the aggressive vote? Akiko's may be hiding something, but for the most part our negotiations went pretty well, even with the headpats,and right now we gain nothing by calling her out on that except to satisfy our ego. Let's not burn our bridges just yet because we don't like the way she is talking to us.
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Going back to the end of the last update:
Our response should be to Sakura, not Akiko. Akiko 'agreed' to the proposal, but Sakura was the one who made it. Sakura was the one who put her pride on the line for it. She took a risk; we'll treat that risk as valuable and important to us, not something that is secondary to Akiko's approval. We're acknowledging Sakura as someone with her own agency and power, not a mere lackey to her group's leader.
Therefore our response is explicitly to Sakura, with Akiko as merely a witness. Don't even respond to the 'if we can'. Don't even look at Akiko. The proposal we are agreeing to is the one Sakura made.
Revising my vote:
[x] To Sakura (with a smile): Very well. We're agreed, then.
[x] To Akiko: Well, we need to go talk with Ishinomaki and the University groups now. Think you can sit things out for a couple days?
-[x] If she seems overly reluctant, express it as asking a favor.
[x] Make our goodbyes.
[x] Telepathy Masami and Hiroko: In the event that Sendai approaches you in the near future, asking that you 'return the favor' of their healing by joining them, or at least assisting them in some endeavor, I *highly* recommend you refuse. Any debt you feel obligated towards, I will cover for you. Don't get drawn in.
[x] Telepathy Oriko: I might have screwed up. A little. How bad do things look now?
-[x] If not Defcon 2 or worse, prep for heading back to Ishinomaki[plan A]
-[x] If Defcon 2 or worse, request Homu Express to (probably) University[plan B].
Our response should be to Sakura, not Akiko. Akiko 'agreed' to the proposal, but Sakura was the one who made it. Sakura was the one who put her pride on the line for it. She took a risk; we'll treat that risk as valuable and important to us, not something that is secondary to Akiko's approval. We're acknowledging Sakura as someone with her own agency and power, not a mere lackey to her group's leader.
Therefore our response is explicitly to Sakura, with Akiko as merely a witness. Don't even respond to the 'if we can'. Don't even look at Akiko. The proposal we are agreeing to is the one Sakura made.
Revising my vote:
[x] To Sakura (with a smile): Very well. We're agreed, then.
[x] To Akiko: Well, we need to go talk with Ishinomaki and the University groups now. Think you can sit things out for a couple days?
-[x] If she seems overly reluctant, express it as asking a favor.
[x] Make our goodbyes.
[x] Telepathy Masami and Hiroko: In the event that Sendai approaches you in the near future, asking that you 'return the favor' of their healing by joining them, or at least assisting them in some endeavor, I *highly* recommend you refuse. Any debt you feel obligated towards, I will cover for you. Don't get drawn in.
[x] Telepathy Oriko: I might have screwed up. A little. How bad do things look now?
-[x] If not Defcon 2 or worse, prep for heading back to Ishinomaki[plan A]
-[x] If Defcon 2 or worse, request Homu Express to (probably) University[plan B].
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Guys, are we really going to make random threats or rage about the way we're being handled? I don't think that'd help much. 
I mean, there's getting her to take us seriously and then there's being a jackass about it- and I'd rather keep the "Favor" for if we run into them doing something stupid later.
I mean, there's getting her to take us seriously and then there's being a jackass about it- and I'd rather keep the "Favor" for if we run into them doing something stupid later.
We've already demonstrated to Akiko what we do when we decide to act. Last time, we lead off with grabbing her teleporter's soul gem. Emphasizing that we'll take any means we have will subtly remind her of that. As for turtly? Depends on your point of view. We haven't been able to influence Akiko's actions by negotiation. We now need to do so by taking actions that push against her ideal scenario. We could shout at her team and start a fight, but if she remains unprovoked and just leaves, that's even MORE turtly than promising to go help her enemies and threarening to escalate our response to force.
- Location
- Southern Virginia
[X] Kinematics
Because eh. It's a lot better than the current bandwagon. Getting out gracefully to regroup and figure out how badly things are now, and then come up with a real plan, is probably the best we can hope to accomplish. The precognition card's value has been damaged since it should have been used from the first and they'll (rightfully) be put out that Sabrina was lying to them, and the forum base won't support a vote to use it anyway.
Because eh. It's a lot better than the current bandwagon. Getting out gracefully to regroup and figure out how badly things are now, and then come up with a real plan, is probably the best we can hope to accomplish. The precognition card's value has been damaged since it should have been used from the first and they'll (rightfully) be put out that Sabrina was lying to them, and the forum base won't support a vote to use it anyway.
I would too, but I'd rather burn the favor than Homura's goodwill, and we won't be able to tell if we need Homura's aid until after the other checks are done. Plus, it doesn't have to be burned. As long as we don't turn this into a situation where she'd refuse just to spite us, the simple request seems like it should have at least a half-decent chance of passing on its own.
MiracleGrow
Miracles for only $19.99 [They/Them]
- Location
- DOOR STUCK DOOR STUCK PLEASE I BEG U
[X] Kinematics
Can you explain in what way you feel it isn't the right call, and in what way you view this as 'turtling'? I know my own understanding of the term is very different from what was mentioned much earlier in the thread, and I'm not sure exactly how you are defining it.
To clarify my own understanding of the term: a turtle has maximum defense, minimum movement, minimum offense. It does not run away from the mob/object/problem, nor does it 'stay at range', because it does not have that freedom of movement; instead it simply takes the beating because it can't be hurt. In particular, 'turtling up' implies full retraction into its shell, which removes -all- movement options.
I can't see any way in which my proposal can be described in that manner, so I have to assume your critique applies to some other aspect. I tend towards high mobility and subtlety options rather than turtled options.
Perhaps snake-like would be more analogous. Or, if we're playing the four gods, dragon-like. Genbu, the turtle, for steadfastness and defense; Seiryu, the dragon, for fluidity and subtlety; Byakko, the tiger, for mobility (pursuit) and aggressive power; and Suzaku, the bird, for mobility and range.
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Cannongerbil
I came here to nep at you
- Location
- Soviet Lunar Base
[x] There is another thing I would like to ask of you
[x] We would like to have a talk with the university group, as I'm sure you would as well.
-[x] If asked, say that after all the effort we've gone through, we would like to see how things pan out
[x] hitch a ride with them to Sendai, if they are willing.
Gah, this vote is a headache and a half, but It doesn't burn our bridges, and it doesn't let the Sendai girls go unsupervised, because that will end up with the university girls dead. Feel free to butcher this vote to your hearts content, because it is made in a rush.
[x] We would like to have a talk with the university group, as I'm sure you would as well.
-[x] If asked, say that after all the effort we've gone through, we would like to see how things pan out
[x] hitch a ride with them to Sendai, if they are willing.
Gah, this vote is a headache and a half, but It doesn't burn our bridges, and it doesn't let the Sendai girls go unsupervised, because that will end up with the university girls dead. Feel free to butcher this vote to your hearts content, because it is made in a rush.
Dirtnap
Kanmusu Affecionado
Simple enough for me kinematics, turtling is non reaction to a situation in front of you. It is nonaggression in the face of a problem. Passivity when action is needed.
This from the very first post by the GM. The red is invisitext.
This from the very first post by the GM. The red is invisitext.
Okay. Going to take another shot at making a vote.
1. We need to make sure the Sendai group doesn't immediately go gank people now that we've cleansed them and given them information.
2. We want our warning to be taken seriously- this is a lower priority.
3. We'd like a guarantee that they stay out of Mitakihara during the war.
4.We have no call to be aggressive or threatening- yet.
[x]Nod to Sakura.
[x]If we can? Sorry, but that isn't good enough. You're staying out of Mitakihara until the war is over. We can meet you elsewhere if we have to.
[x]We've going to try and talk to the other side as well and end this. If they're reasonable and back down, we are cleansing them too. If you have any plans involving those groups, you should hold off on them for now.
-[x]We're willing to give everyone the benefit of the doubt here, but if anyone is unreasonable, we are getting involved- and actively helping the other side if need be. (We'll side with the University group if we have to.)
-[x]Escalating things would be a bad mistake. Are you really confident enough that you know what's going on that you're willing to risk your life and the lives of your friends over it? Wait while we try our alternative.
@Kinematics
Your vote boils down to stalling. Nothing really gets done beyond a vague appeal to Sakura, ignores the team leader's role as such, and has some interesting but ultimately irrelevant side actions and a rather implausible "use Homura" clause.
Also, random Oriko questioning.
1. We need to make sure the Sendai group doesn't immediately go gank people now that we've cleansed them and given them information.
2. We want our warning to be taken seriously- this is a lower priority.
3. We'd like a guarantee that they stay out of Mitakihara during the war.
4.We have no call to be aggressive or threatening- yet.
[x]Nod to Sakura.
[x]If we can? Sorry, but that isn't good enough. You're staying out of Mitakihara until the war is over. We can meet you elsewhere if we have to.
[x]We've going to try and talk to the other side as well and end this. If they're reasonable and back down, we are cleansing them too. If you have any plans involving those groups, you should hold off on them for now.
-[x]We're willing to give everyone the benefit of the doubt here, but if anyone is unreasonable, we are getting involved- and actively helping the other side if need be. (We'll side with the University group if we have to.)
-[x]Escalating things would be a bad mistake. Are you really confident enough that you know what's going on that you're willing to risk your life and the lives of your friends over it? Wait while we try our alternative.
@Kinematics
Your vote boils down to stalling. Nothing really gets done beyond a vague appeal to Sakura, ignores the team leader's role as such, and has some interesting but ultimately irrelevant side actions and a rather implausible "use Homura" clause.
Also, random Oriko questioning.
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Winged Knight
Still just a crazy man with a wolf on his head
- Location
- Texas
Vote changed.
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