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The problem with voting for the library is that there are always going to be reasons to do one last thing with someone else and not actually engage with the arc we're currently in rather than hanging onto past ones.

We need to make the break and actually invest actions to make the emotional connections in and out of character with the new part of the setting we're exploring.
I mean, that's not an argument for ditching the library; out of the three items on the verge of our top five, that's an argument for ditching Belegar. The library is part of the arc we're currently in, because we voted to spend a half-AP a turn on actively managing it, so I agree strongly with Derpmind that actually getting involved with its design is worthwhile. "Find out about the new Loremaster from Belegar," on the other hand, isn't really relevant to our day-to-day, it's just a "hey, Belegar is cool and we're curious about our replacement."

That being said: I don't think it really matters that much. It's a social vote. These votes are not usually heavily impactful on the story. There's a reason why I haven't been bothering making arguments for the options I favor, because it's just not that big a deal. If people vote for the stuff they want to see without concern for what is optimal in terms of giving us information about our current situation, that is totally valid and we will be totally fine if they get their way.
 
Breathing fire is fine, but his human form uses fire in a distinct not breath way:
Gold Wizards do have some bit of fire magic in their arsenal.
The problem with voting for the library is that there are always going to be reasons to do one last thing with someone else and not actually engage with the arc we're currently in rather than hanging onto past ones.

We need to make the break and actually invest actions to make the emotional connections in and out of character with the new part of the setting we're exploring.
The Library is no newer than our relationship to Laurelorn. We voted to officially found it after we voted for the Waystone Project. If anything the Library is the one suffering from our desire to cling to the past.

Like, we literally decided to be Head Librarian two turns ago, as opposed to just have it be a background thing or whatever.
 
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I mean, that's not an argument for ditching the library; out of the three items on the verge of our top five, that's an argument for ditching Belegar.
You raise a compelling point.

[X] Vicarius Galenstra, to get to know him and his Ward.
[X] The Karak Azul Architects, to get involved in the design of your Library in detail.
 
Impressive work, reads just like the canon DLCs and I'd certainly want to play it.



Mostly just abandoning him in general, both personally and by any institutions under her command. Mathilde would reluctantly admit she couldn't take Sigmar in a fight.
Not yet we can't

Sorry I'm responding to such an old post, but I couldn't help myself
 
Laurelorn
[x] Egrimm, to try to sound out more information about the Alric situation.
[x] Vicarius Galenstra, to get to know him and his Ward.
[x] Thorek Ironbrow, to witness the arrival of the first Dwarf in Tor Lithanel for over four thousand years.

Karak Eight Peaks
[x] The Karak Azul Architects, to get involved in the design of your Library in detail.

[x] Pay a visit to your fief, to see if anything has changed. It probably hasn't.
 
[X] Thorek Ironbrow, to witness the arrival of the first Dwarf in Tor Lithanel for over four thousand years.
[X] Qrech, who is putting the finishing touches on his tome on the Chaos Dwarves.
[X] Vicarius Galenstra, to get to know him and his Ward.
[X] Julia, to see what she has gotten up to as Stirland's most experienced spy master.
[X] Egrimm, to try to sound out more information about the Alric situation.
[X] The Karak Azul Architects, to get involved in the design of your Library in detail.
 
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[x] The Karak Azul Architects, to get involved in the design of your Library in detail.
[x] Qrech, who is putting the finishing touches on his tome on the Chaos Dwarves.
[x] Middenland, to see how the Ulricans are going with their new Eonir coreligionists.
 
So.

Let's talk library design. I am not a library scientist nor a historian, so all information here has been compiled from frenzied googling and wiki walking.

Influences
Mathilde has some influences in how she will approach creating a library - most notably, the library of the Grey College, which is likely to be in large part a chained lectern library similar to the Trinity Hall library at Cambridge - it would have been the academic custom in the Empire at the time the Grey College was created, and keeping sensitive materials restricted seems in keeping with the Grey College ethos. Of course, some influence from Ulthuan and the Tower of Hoeth likely made it into the structure of the libraries of the Colleges of Magic, but it's hard to speculate what that influence would look like - the Library of the White Tower is said to be absolutely enormous, with magic guiding scholars to the knowledge in particular they seek if they have earned it.

Beyond that, she will be influenced by the Verenan take on sharing knowledge, where I suspect they have historically filled a role similar to that of monasteries of the Benedictine order in our history - monasteries such as Canterbury would fastidiously copy manuscripts to ensure they were maintained, and lend them to other monasteries or even secular people as long as they were given a security.

There will be a significant influence on the library's design from the dwarven architects who actually build it - they in turn will likely be drawing on the experience of Dwarf archives and recordkeeping, like that used to maintain the Dammaz Kron - we know that dwarves have Runes they use to preserve books, but there are likely architectural choices they're liable to make as well to ensure that books do well in subterranean environments.

Finally, she will be influenced by various private book collections, including her experience maintaining her own collection- an example would be the Royal Library assembled by Charles V in 1368, which would span over 900 volumes by 1390, or the collection of Richard de Bury (author of the Philobiblon).

The time period Mathilde is in is roughly equivalent to when some of the first public libraries opened, such as the library opened by Cosimo de' Medici in 1444. (Notably, this was still prior to the Gutenberg press.) The Library of Karak 8 Peaks will likely begin at a scale comprable to a notably large private collection of the era - this would be 800 to 900 volumes. It will then continue to grow with time - especially once movable type becomes a thing, and especially as funding continues to be provided and private collections get bought up whenever anyone with a notable one passes away.

Design
LK8P has been given a whole mountain, but it's very unlikely to need all that space to begin with. Even if we assume that Belegar can outdo even the wealthiest Medici for book procurement threefold over the next few years, and including all of Mathilde's existing collection, we'd still be looking at " " "merely" " " around 5000 volumes - that's more than enough books that chained lecterns aren't going to cut it, but still few enough that you could easily fit them in a single large hall. (For comparison, an average high school library in North America has around 9000 books.)

However, dwarves build things to last, and so that likely means that they will either create the library design in such a way that it can be expanded upon near-indefinitely as more and more books come in, or massively over-designing the library and making use of only part of its space capacity for the first few decades. (For example, we might have several wings be planned out for various subjects, and then use the first wing to be completed as a catch-all library while the other wings slowly finish construction.)

It looks like the primary considerations of library architects of the era were ensuring that there were high enough ceilings that things didn't feel cramped around all the shelving, and making sure that enough light comes through to allow for scholarship and study. Dwarves will no doubt do fabulously on the first front - high-ceilinged caverns are kind of their thing - but I wonder how the lighting will work. Then again, we know that Belegar's great hall (with the Weber crest prominently displayed) seems to be well-lit enough, so this seems like a solved problem.

That said, there's more to a library than just space to keep the books, especially given the time period. A significant amount of space is going to need to be dedicated to creating copies of books - both copies of books already in the LK8P collection to ensure that they get preserved, and books on loan from other institutions so that LK8P can make a new copy for their collection. Someone is going to have to be in charge of all the various intra-institutional loans, someone else is going to have to be in charge of book collection efforts, and a whole host of somebodies are going to be busy constantly rotating through the library and ensuring that the books are well kept for, and given these are dwarves all of the various rooms that all of this will be happening in will no doubt be part of the library's design - and quite possibly the living quarters too, especially if the Library is meant to host visiting scholars.

The Ranald Question
I do think that there should be some minor Ranaldian symbolism subtly worked into the library somewhere, since I do like the idea of this being something of an olive branch between Ranald and Verena that Mathilde is facilitating. However, by that same token, said symbolism should be subtle and minor. It's not much of an olive branch if it has Ranald's name gaudily scrawled all over it, and a library really doesn't need cat statues every few feet to trip over. We can likely do something tasteful with how the dwarven rune for book involves four lines crossing over each other - not hard to hide some crosses in that design.
 
This is incredibly interesting and informative. There is something I would like to inquire about though.

Is it possible to have a literacy program attached to the library?

I mean, one of the biggest obstacles to libraries in the current time period seems to be the low rates of literacy. I'm not thinking anything like mandatory literacy to all citizens of K8P, but some sort of program where those who are interested can learn to read and write. What is the history of the development of literacy like really? What caused people to start really going for reading and writing rather than just subsisting on illiteracy, and is there a way we can influence that?

I admit my motivations are largely selfish. What use is a great library if most people can't read.
 
Literacy seems like one of a number of related occupations that will be set up to fill the mountain around the library. The paper-makers, ink-compounders, typesetters, coppersmiths and engravers, book-binders, and cover-painters will ask need their space. The librarians, security, purchasers, accountants and visiting scholars as well.

I think we can look at filling a mountain, at least somewhat. I'd like to imagine that Belegar could get big chunks of Everpeak's archives copied over, so that's another huge hall of books, and if word gets around the King is buying there's probably going to be a a very strong eastern realms department.

So maybe multiple halls arranged by language first and then subject, but arrange the subjects the same in each hall? Add a few big reading/scribing rooms with bright lights, some staff offices, and an access control/loss prevention complex and I think you have the bare bones of a library complex. Everything else we probably want to encourage to sprawl through the mountain a bit.
 
This is incredibly interesting and informative. There is something I would like to inquire about though.

Is it possible to have a literacy program attached to the library?

I mean, one of the biggest obstacles to libraries in the current time period seems to be the low rates of literacy. I'm not thinking anything like mandatory literacy to all citizens of K8P, but some sort of program where those who are interested can learn to read and write. What is the history of the development of literacy like really? What caused people to start really going for reading and writing rather than just subsisting on illiteracy, and is there a way we can influence that?

I admit my motivations are largely selfish. What use is a great library if most people can't read.

Literacy is part of a standard dwarven education, to varying degrees depending on clan/vocation. Whether or not the humans and halflings in K8P develop such a focus is up to Francesco and Hludowica. Some previous discussion:

But before we go forward with something that may not actually be needed: @BoneyM to the best of Mathilde's knowledge, how would Karag Nar Human and Valley Halfling education probably look if left to their own devices? Is it as bad as we imagine?
And I know that even Mathilde's speculation might not give an accurate picture because the oldest Karag Nar born human child should currently be around four years old and the women who migrated there probably didn't bring many children with them. But maybe latter merchants did.

Too soon to say. Maybe they'll take a page from the Dwarves, or maybe it will follow the norm of the Empire.

What about basic numbers, history, religion, and laws? Also, how does a Dwarven childhood look beyond that? When does a Dwarf child start to speak full sentences and play without constant parental supervision and what do they do with their time between that age and their apprenticeship?

Currently I can only imagine that their life is either very carefree (other than the pressures to conform and the many family secrets), that basic mining, smelting, metalworking, fighting, literacy, and family traditions are far more extensive than what I imagine, or that the Dwarven child's brain works very slowly, even when compared to an adult Dwarf.

Laws are part of schooling. Numbers are usually taught as part of their vocational training, if they're relevant to it. History and religion are taught by elders. Dwarven developmental milestones are about the same as humans, they just have a much higher bar for when a Dwarf is considered mature and educated enough to be considered an adult. A studious Dwarf can, upon reaching adulthood, fight, mine, and craft metal at least as well as average human professionals, on top of learning their clan's specialty and their chosen vocation (if they differ).

How hard would just establishing a free and non-mandatory primary school be? I'd ballpark ot at 4 actions if Belegar is willing to pay for it but Francesco can't be bothered to sacrifice valuable time for it. Am I far off?

Mathilde has no idea. Try it and find out.


Also, whose area of responsibility would it be on a Dwarven royal council if something seems to be going wrong with the basic education of clanless Dwarves?
Normally the Steward.

I'm too lazy to grab the rest, but if you follow the quote chain around that page there should be more on the topic.
 
Literacy is part of a standard dwarven education, to varying degrees depending on clan/vocation. Whether or not the humans and halflings in K8P develop such a focus is up to Francesco and Hludowica. Some previous discussion:



I'm too lazy to grab the rest, but if you follow the quote chain around that page there should be more on the topic.
Following on that, that looks like a bit of a different situation. Boney was talking about funds for Karag Nar being requisitioned for schooling, and apparently mandatory schooling at that, and not just basic voluntary literacy lessons. I'm not looking for a full on education system, school or university, but just a program to get those who are interested in it to learn to read and write if they want. We do have funds independent of Karag Nar so any pusback would be very minimal.

The question becomes if there are enough people interested in learning to read and write, which I don't know.
 
This is incredibly interesting and informative. There is something I would like to inquire about though.

Is it possible to have a literacy program attached to the library?

I mean, one of the biggest obstacles to libraries in the current time period seems to be the low rates of literacy. I'm not thinking anything like mandatory literacy to all citizens of K8P, but some sort of program where those who are interested can learn to read and write. What is the history of the development of literacy like really? What caused people to start really going for reading and writing rather than just subsisting on illiteracy, and is there a way we can influence that?

I admit my motivations are largely selfish. What use is a great library if most people can't read.

Widespread literacy requires widespread reasons to be literate. In European history that was tied to religion, as the Protestant Reformation pushed the idea that everyone should be able to read the Bible, forcing the Catholic Counter-Reformation to start promoting literacy too (or at least stop inhibiting it as much), and literature bloomed as suddenly their potential market included pretty much everyone. There's no corresponding force in the Empire - Verenans are often cited, but their priority is preserving knowledge, not spreading it. Most citizens of the Empire would much rather that their child be taught a trade than be taught the written word, because the written word is seen as a specialist skill, not something with day-to-day applications. When the common folk need something read or written, every population centre will have someone who knows enough to read and write what needs to be read and written, the same way that every population centre would have someone who can thatch and someone who can fix farming tools. Why would you teach everyone to read and write? It would be seen as pointless as teaching everyone to thatch roofs, or turn clay, or make charcoal. It's an important skill, sure, but one that only a fraction of the population need to practice.
 
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Verenans are often cited, but their priority is preserving knowledge, not spreading it.
I've always hated that distinction.

Not to say this is wrong or something that wouldn't exist—you're the QM, after all and would know far better—but just in general. Even IRL some people seem to forget that the greatest way to preserve knowledge is to create as many copies as possible, and what better protected format than the human mind? It always bugs me.
 
Not to say this is wrong or something that wouldn't exist—you're the QM, after all and would know far better—but just in general. Even IRL some people seem to forget that the greatest way to preserve knowledge is to create as many copies as possible, and what better protected format than the human mind? It always bugs me.
I mean, this is the Warhammer universe, the human mind is very much not a safe space to hide things in.
 
I've always hated that distinction.

Not to say this is wrong or something that wouldn't exist—you're the QM, after all and would know far better—but just in general. Even IRL some people seem to forget that the greatest way to preserve knowledge is to create as many copies as possible, and what better protected format than the human mind? It always bugs me.

The Cult of Verena is very decentralized and has no official head apart from Verena Herself. There are portions of it that do try to spread knowledge, but there are others that quite like the power and prestige of being the gatekeepers of it instead. And one big problem that the Cult has is that there's knowledge out there that other powers really don't want preserved, and often for pretty compelling reasons. This means the idea that some of their knowledge needs to be kept to themselves is one that no part of the Cult can fully shake off, because some of that knowledge is proscribed and forbidden.

Safeguard knowledge, says the first of the Cult's strictures. Yes, but what about- All knowledge, says the second. If Mathilde dropped the Liber Mortis in their laps, they'd be required to preserve it. The Codex of Unspeakable Damnation, a how-to guide on building a Chaos Cult and summoning Daemons? Yep. The Black Book of Ibn Nagazzar, which allows even the most talentless of people the ability to cast Death and Shadow Magic for the low, low price of blood sacrifice for each casting? All knowledge means all knowledge. The Liber Bubonicus, which comes with samples of every single plague to have ever ravaged the world? The Liber Caelestior, a book of insane prophecy that broke the faith of he who would become Archaon? The Chromatic Tome, which is literally a Daemon that tweaks the lessons on magic within on the fly to better drive the reader into heresy and damnation? Did Verena fucking stutter? All. Knowledge. Preserve it.

So... yeah. Secrecy is built inextricably into the bones of the Cult of Verena.
 
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So... yeah. Secrecy is built inextricably into the bones of the Cult of Verena.
Fair enough. I mean, IRL or in other, less horrible worlds that's less applicable, but I'll admit that here at least there's reasonable explanations. Of course, one could also try assigning various interpretations of "preserve knowledge" to various forms of said knowledge, much like how Mathilde applied certain interpretations of "do not study dark magic" or Ranald's tenets, but as you say, they're not only decentralized but also probably not universally capable of such mental shenanigans.

Basically, I'm not so much saying that doesn't make sense as I am saying I just wish the world could be more reasonable.
 
@Boney What about Clio the Scrivener? As a goddess, she seems to be viewed as an aspect of Verena dedicated towards "delving into the past" and she has a pretty major temple in Carroburg that you mentioned was a prominent library (one of the libraries that we would have had to check out to confirm Deathfang's tale so we could publish it). There isn't much information available on Clio on the Tome of Salvation, so how does she play out as an aspect of Verena in DL?
 
Someone is going to have to be in charge of all the various intra-institutional loans, someone else is going to have to be in charge of book collection efforts, and a whole host of somebodies are going to be busy constantly rotating through the library and ensuring that the books are well kept for, and given these are dwarves all of the various rooms that all of this will be happening in will no doubt be part of the library's design - and quite possibly the living quarters too, especially if the Library is meant to host visiting scholars.
Max be like:
"If I'd known this position was gonna be available, instead of uprooting my Smithy to Laurelorn with WEB-MAT..."
 
@Boney What about Clio the Scrivener? As a goddess, she seems to be viewed as an aspect of Verena dedicated towards "delving into the past" and she has a pretty major temple in Carroburg that you mentioned was a prominent library (one of the libraries that we would have had to check out to confirm Deathfang's tale so we could publish it). There isn't much information available on Clio on the Tome of Salvation, so how does she play out as an aspect of Verena in DL?

Clio's the God of Scribes and Illuminators and the like. Their library is less about sharing knowledge and more about advertising the services they offer. They'd generally in favour of increasing literacy if it would mean they get more business and more prominence, but if it comes via the Printing Press, not so much.
 
The Cult of Verena is very decentralized and has no official head apart from Verena Herself. There are portions of it that do try to spread knowledge, but there are others that quite like the power and prestige of being the gatekeepers of it instead. And one big problem that the Cult has is that there's knowledge out there that other powers really don't want preserved, and often for pretty compelling reasons. This means the idea that some of their knowledge needs to be kept to themselves is one that no part of the Cult can fully shake off, because some of that knowledge is proscribed and forbidden.

Safeguard knowledge, says the first of the Cult's strictures. Yes, but what about- All knowledge, says the second. If Mathilde dropped the Liber Mortis in their laps, they'd be required to preserve it. The Codex of Unspeakable Damnation, a how-to guide on building a Chaos Cult and summoning Daemons? Yep. The Black Book of Ibn Nagazzar, which allows even the most talentless of people the ability to cast Death and Shadow Magic for the low, low price of blood sacrifice for each casting? All knowledge means all knowledge. The Liber Bubonicus, which comes with samples of every single plague to have ever ravaged the world? The Liber Caelestior, a book of insane prophecy that broke the faith of he who would become Archaon? The Chromatic Tome, which is literally a Daemon that tweaks the lessons on magic within on the fly to better drive the reader into heresy and damnation? Did Verena fucking stutter? All. Knowledge. Preserve it.

So... yeah. Secrecy is built inextricably into the bones of the Cult of Verena.

I mean is a book shaped daemon really knowledge? By that logic the Verenans would be honor-bound to run across the field and throw their bodies in front of a Changer of Ways because it once taught someone magic, therefore contains knowledge. I mean does the shape of he daemon really matter to have it considered worth preserving.

Also on that note 'preserve all knowledge' is kind of a strike against the notion of he gods evolving purely organically (which i had until now been a supporter of) since I do no think that would have developed on its own given the danger involved.
 
I mean is a book shaped daemon really knowledge? By that logic the Verenans would be honor-bound to run across the field and throw their bodies in front of a Changer of Ways because it once taught someone magic, therefore contains knowledge. I mean does the shape of he daemon really matter to have it considered worth preserving.

"What did Verena mean by 'knowledge'?" is the kind of question that gets thrown into a Verenan conference like a grenade. The general definition they seem to work off is 'something that is, or that can be, written down', and that people that know things should be persuaded to sit down with a scribe rather than protected in their current form, and if they're antithetical to civilization (like a Changer of Ways) they represent more of a threat to the preservation of knowledge than they do a source of knowledge that needs to be preserved. But the Chromatic Tome is shaped like a book and can be locked in a safe and left to its own devices without anything going terribly wrong so it's almost perfectly designed to slip into Verenan collections. Where exactly the line gets drawn is one that could really use a solid and well-thought-out answer, but the structure of the Cult of Verena is incapable of producing it.
 
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