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Remember when we wrote and sold the memoirs of Asarnil as a journeywoman, and we earned a crate full of silver, and the grey order did nothing at all?
This isn't true. We had to decide how we were going to handle the money, and we decided that we would spend it in the person of Dame Weber and spend most of it on our fief. So we spent our last turns in Stirland dumping money into our cactus like it was going out of style.
You've also got to consider your financial windfall. The Grey Order is yet to comment, but their gears grind slow but fine and this is too much for them to ignore. They'll soon ask pointed questions as to which of the cavernous loopholes in the Grey Order's Vow of Poverty you'll be shoving the funds through.
[ ] All but eliminate your debt from the EIC purchases.
[ ] Inject into your Discretionary Fund.
[ ] Label it a Rainy Day fund, deposit it in the Grey College's coffers, and withdraw it at a later date when liquid funds are needed.
[ ] Donation to some institution (choose one)
[ ] Improve your land near Sonningwiesse.
- [ ] Improve the arms and armour of the local populace for when they are called as militia.
- [ ] Rebuild the local manor house, complete with fortifications to shelter the locals should danger threaten.
- [ ] Closely investigate the area for any mineral wealth.
- [ ] Build farms and import farmers to compliment the herdsmen.
- [ ] Other (write in)
[ ] Other (write in)
"Just keep it for Mathilde to spend on her own stuff with no strings attached" wasn't an option without a write-in.
 
This isn't true. We had to decide how we were going to handle the money, and we decided that we would spend it in the person of Dame Weber and spend most of it on our fief. So we spent our last turns in Stirland dumping money into our cactus like it was going out of style.

That doesn't contradict anything I said, though? The Grey Order did nothing, because we gained and used the money in an appropriate manner.
 
I suspect the reason we never got called on that was less that the order never noticed and more that we didn't use magic to do it. The grey college generally follows the spirit of the vow (don't abuse your magic to make money) rather than the letter.
I don't think that that's the case. Like, yeah, they probably wouldn't have killed Mathilde over it or even taken her off of her current job, but they wouldn't have had let it slide without any comment whatsoever. Fact is, the Grey Order is not some kind of all knowing panopticon. Our Wurtbad underground palace might well be known to only Regimand or maybe not even him. And as long as Mathilde doesn't do anything suspicious, no Grey Magister would have taken the specific time to rifle through all of the Stirland Watch paperwork just in case, not with all the myriad actual fires that need squashing all across the Empire.
But a Grey Wizard "dynasty" at the head of a new and rapidly expanding trade organization, well, that is suspicious enough in and off itself to warrant a casual closer look.

That said, one reason to maybe worry less about all this is that the Grey Order already as an additional man inside the highest echelons of the EIC. The Hochlander is an agent that we just pay a normal salary and that has no reason to be more loyal to Mathilde or Wilhelmina than to the Order as far as we know. Maybe he has grown fond of the EIC over the years, but otherwise we really know next to nothing about his Divided Loyalties. We just had a job interview, liked the cut of his jib and trusted that he'd be pre-vetted enough. And given the premise of this whole Quest, well...
In CK2 quests you have your advisors, a handful of descriptive lines updated every half a decade or so that regularly spit out three or more neat little options for how to improve your lot in life. They are almost always trusted implicitly even among the most paranoid of threads unless they're described as twirling a moustache and carving chaotic sigils into the meeting room table, and I wondered what their life was like when they weren't delivering their annual reports. Do they truly have no desire other than to serve you, or do they have murkier motivations than their lord ever sees? When they tell you it will cost ten thousand gold to build new roads, will it actually cost that, or did they round it up from 9700 and change and pocket the difference? When a factory is built, is it staffed entirely along meritocratic lines? When you send a few thousand men to go punch goblins in the face, does all the loot they find make it's way back to you? And when they tell you that the people will be satisfied by no less than a new and grand cathedral to balm their souls, how do you know that a few extra local churches wouldn't do the job for a fraction of the time and effort?
The Hochlander is essentially Mathilde's Spymaster/Steward hybrid advisor. Everything in the above paragraph applies to him. And frankly, I'd be massively surprised if BoneyM didn't attach some individualized kind of hidden Divided Loyalty™ trait or other complication to each of the Grey Perpetual options that we were presented with. And we chose the only option for which there was no obviously negative trait visible to us, completely disregarding Abelheim's old advice.
"It has long been a personal belief of mine that no man is without flaw, and that it is the man whose flaw you cannot find that you must be most careful of. Because for them to hide it so carefully usually means that the secret is a terrible one."
Well, now I'm worried again.
 
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[X] Wizard
-[X] No specific Order
-[X] Let Eike decide

I am of the opinion that we don't know Eike well enough to recommend her to any College in particular. There are a lot of benefits to her joining the Grey Order, but none of those are relevant if it turns out she's not suited to Ulgu or the life of a Grey Wizard.
 
Why saddle Eike with having to tango with the Bursar over her shoulder all the time, the letter and spirit of the Vow of Poverty, how much financial power she personally can or can't have, and making the EIC of 'direct and practical usage to her cause' by bootstrapping the military-industrial complex? If she didn't have polity-level baggage I'd be all for her joining the Grey Order. But since she is heiress to a trade company, she'd be a better fit for the 'profit is power' Golds, who wouldn't audit her but in fact likely celebrate it. Hell, Johann got away with stealing for his first Gilding, and all he had to do to make that happen was probably not talk about it. She'd have more acceptance and more leeway to do as she likes.
 
[X] Wizard
-[X] No specific Order
-[X] Let Eike decide

I'm opposed to taking on an apprentice, let alone making Eike's situation more complicated because we want one. It isn't impossible, but it is making life more difficult.
 
The Grey Order and Let Eike decide are tied but anyone who knows anything about the Grey Order knows it is the same thing :p
 
Arguing that the Golds "gain power through profit" honestly just makes me like suggesting it less. The idea of the CEO of a massive trading company gaining magical power through profit seems terrifying to me. If Eike did go Gold, I'd want to spend a few more EIC actions on anti-corruption countermeasures.

...The Golds kinda scare me in general, honestly, though I don't know enough about their College and its inner politics/philosophy to know whether that fear is justified.
 
Arguing that the Golds "gain power through profit" honestly just makes me like suggesting it less. The idea of the CEO of a massive trading company gaining magical power through profit seems terrifying to me. If Eike did go Gold, I'd want to spend a few more EIC actions on anti-corruption countermeasures.

...The Golds kinda scare me in general, honestly, though I don't know enough about their College and its inner politics/philosophy to know whether that fear is justified.
Why? They need the reagents and the resources, one of which is literal magic gold. It's not like you need to be a ruthless powermonger to be a successful Gold Wizard. More money making things more easy is just the way their magic works. We spent wagonloads of silver for books to be a better Loremaster and wizard. What's wrong with Golds doing the same with chemicals and metals? They need to acquire everything somehow.

And the EIC has patriotism sunk into it's bones. It literally values the well being of the Empire over the means it makes money. Problems the EIC causes are going to be like napalm and the DOW Chemical company, in which it puts the orders of government officials over business ethics. But since we're in a feudal system, the way things work are different. Also, the Empire is embroiled in conflict within it's own borders. If your concern is the EIC being a problem, don't give them the means to make highly suspect weapons for government usage. That's the Colleges of Magic's job anyways.
 
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[X] Wizard
-[X] The Order of Life
-[X] The Grey Order

I'm actually more convinced now that, especially considering who Eike worships, that there is a personal argument to be had for Mathilde putting the Order of Life explicitly on the table, and given the charter of the EIC is likely far more philosophically compatible with the Jade - in so far Mathilde understands the Jade college from Panoramia (sustainability) than the Gold, I'd rather it'd take more prominence in the list of options Mathilde presents to Wilhemina. The parallels of the words Eike was parroting to Panoramia's observations of the world are quite startling to be honest. And from the EIC perspective, I suspect a Jade Magister running the EIC doesn't run into the same concerns merchants might have, of dealing with a Grey.
 
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I know it's not how this works, but somehow a combination of post-vaccination fever haze, lack of sleep, reading this thread, and general insanity, but I this mental image of Eike as a shadow-mist themed teleporting magical girl who's employed by the EIC-as-a-Grey-Order-function postal and freight service, and it's a bizarre mashup of PMMM, WHF, Kiki's Delivery Service, and The Office.
 
I would think that, given our own divided loyalties and the strengths we've drawn from them, Eike in the Grey Order would make a lot of sense.

She's likely going to inherit in about 10 years or so, and will be ready for Apprenticeship before that point. As our Apprentice, she'll likely learn much about the accounting intrigue which is integral to the success of the EIC (and the Empire regionally). Combing through nebulous numbers to pull on potential threads of corruption, there's frankly a lot of accounting done by the Grey College (partially because of how well the journeymen would burgle without sufficient oversight). Early twenties she'll be ready to Journey, and inheriting the EIC is probably similar to the pressures we were put under as Stirland's Spymaster (or any of the journeymen that came to Karak 8 Peaks).

The EIC is divided in loyalty: loyal to profits as well as military objectives as well as intrigue surveillance as well as politically powerful. It's quite flexible as an institution, while paradoxically being incredibly rigid on certain things. I think any college could shape it into a superior version of one of these things, but Grey is the one that lets it play in the margins.


I see this as one of the typical Wilhelmina Wins. Incredibly, nearly nonsensical luck! . . . With the caveat that it's going to be very complicated and hard work to get it to pay off

as an additional upside: Eike would actually make for a compelling inheritor of Divided Loyalties should we die or otherwise end up out of control of Mathilde


[X] Wizard
-[X] The Grey Order

I believe this to be the most interesting storyline. Heiress to the EIC and Apprentice to Lady Magister Mathilde Weber. She's been a granddaughter, a daughter, and soon an apprentice. Many kinds of guardian and many kinds of expectations. A good start to her Divided Loyalties I should say.
 
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The question of Shallyans and self-care is an ongoing debate within the Cult. The mainstream view is that working every waking moment leads to mistakes, and that proper rest and meals and breaks are acceptable and are not something that guilt should be felt about. Another mainstream view is that they should not seek out luxuries, but can accept them when they are available. So the mainstream Cult is ascetic, but is not fanatically so. There are minorities of varying levels of radicalness on both sides of the issue, with some saying that any indulgence that does not harm others or interfere with their duty is fine, and others saying that it is wrong for a Shallyan to even feel satisfaction from their work, and that they should spend every waking moment dedicated to helping others. And that goes even further into secret splinters that go outright into hedonism on one side and self-harm on the other.

The Cult of Shallya is not a very controlling one, and someone that does not fit into the culture of a particular shrine or temple will find it easy to become an officially-sanctioned wandering priest for however long it takes to find one that better fits their worldview - or found one of their own if they have the resources, as it would be very difficult to find somewhere so awash with charitable organization that there was no longer any suffering left to assuage.
 
There's more points I'd like to raise in favor of Eike trying to be a Gold first.

Eike would have an easier time being a Gold Wizard and the EIC head, and be able to benefit more from that as a Gold than a Grey. With how the Golds have extensive customer bases and business partners, it's clear they are more openly prosocial than the Greys. Put selling luxury goods in contrast with us wearing the fact that we are empowered to kill people as openly as the grey on our robes. There's plenty of distrust for assassins, shady government officials, wizards, and spies, and Greys combine all that into one. That makes people nervous and hard to build connections with people, because they will reflexively have their guards up. But being at ease around someone who has the same goals and understanding as you is a lot easier. A fact a Gold can exploit much easier than an openly known Grey can. Winning friends, influencing people and getting them to spill intel is much easier when they don't think you're out to get them. And not being able to play politics is a weighty ball and chain as a business mogul. The Gold's spells are also much more useful to her than the Greys, even discounting the Grey College's restrictions. Law of Logic and Enchant Item would give her a leg up on the competition, as well as help her make the most optimal decisions for business and logistics.

Then there's the business side of things. The Greys strongly prefer being paid in favors over cash, and they are paranoid of what they do hand out. The Golds are all about alchemy, and are willing and able to sell the results to fund their studies. And where being a Grey Wizard means needing only fog and shadow to work your magic, Golds have much more intensive material requirements that being the head of a trade company alleviates entirely. Quantity and quality are going to be expensive, and her wealth can be applied in an approved and useful way in pursuit of learning and magic. Just like the Fey Enchantress, she would find using trade to get equipment for experiments on demand incredibly useful. Rare reagents from Lustria? Shipped in from Barak Varr. She needs multiple workshops built and tooled up? She could get it built by dwarves, and filled with tools made by dwarves at the expensive prices they charge. Chemicals, potions, and toxins in bulk? Name a price point, and she would be able to meet it as well as having it all shipped to her. Quality weaponry? Anything that money can buy. And we're well familiar with the value of having a lot of books. Easy access to resources will make her education and career easier and more successful.

Eike would also find more success, understanding, and acceptance rather than mere tolerance. Her dual loyalties would be able to symbiotically exist with the Golds, rather than being kept separate with the Greys. With the Greys, there would be distrust and suspicion because it's the Grey College. "What does this do for the Empire?" "Make sure you give up any money you can't spend in way that benefits the Empire." "Can you be trusted with this?" "Is your company a liability that you need to set down to better fulfill your duties?" Any success the company has needs to be gone over with the Bursar and approved by overseers, limiting her agency. With the Golds, there won't be any of that pressure. Success would be something to party over with friends, and she will have to answer to no authority save for paying tithes and taxes.

There's also her being able to build on the connections she makes in the Gold College by finding the right people for the right jobs inside the company. It already has many portfolios, so why not hire wizards to improve existing products or make new ones? She would also be able supply other wizards to improve the standing of herself and her College, as well as gain informal and formal favors with wizards and non-wizards. It would allow her to build bridges and friendships, a fact that Mathilde "Ruination of Camaraderie" Weber could stand to appreciate. She'd also get a lot of help in being a businesswomen, both with how the Gold Order works as a commercial enterprise as well as it's classes, and being in close contact with others who have similar interests.

And if you like Eike, why not wait until she's a journeywoman? If we're her master, we have to train her up and then send her off, only able to check in on her. But if we take her under our wing as a journeywoman, we can spend all the time we like with her and work side by side. It would lay the foundation for a relationship that lasts even after she becomes a Magister.

There's benefits to her being a Grey, such as us keeping an eye on her. But the College that gives her the most freedom, enables her to reach her potential, sets her up for success, and lets her lead her life to the greatest and fullest extent is the Golds.
 
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Yeah, I agree she'd probably do well in the Gold Order too--and even if she does, there's a lot of things we can teach even without getting into the Wind specific stuff.
 
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