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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Hm. May I ask what event you are using for that cutoff point of 1400 years ago?
The Ancestors took over a century after the Polar Gates fell and then led the Dwarfs out of Karak Zorn and into the World's Edge Mountains. Boney summed it up here.

BoneyM said:
Here's what the canon timeline says: Collapse of the polar gates began in -5600. In -5500, the Ancestor Gods come to power in Dwarven society, starting the era known as the Time of the Ancestor Gods. Leaving from the previously-established hold of Karak Zorn, they establish the 'Old Holds' of the World's Edge Mountains from -5000 to -4650. Then in -4420 the Great Ritual is complete at about the same time Grimnir marches into the Chaos Wastes and the other Ancestor Gods depart, marking the end of the Time of the Ancestor Gods and the beginning of the Golden Age.

There seems to be some sort of gradient between 'polar gates start going wrong' and 'daemons everywhere oh god' because Dwarven records show that the Old Holds were already well-established before what they consider the 'Coming of Chaos', and Elven records say that the first Great Chaos Invasion of Ulthuan was around -4500. Perhaps the polar gates took centuries to go from malfunctioning to completely destroyed, perhaps Daemonic attention was focussed on the Slann of Lustria at first, perhaps it took time for enough magical energy to accumulate in the world for Daemons to wander freely.
 
[X] Plan Obvious

[X] [Secret] Tell them: Gromrilklad rewards altered, the highest levels of the Cult made aware but sworn to secrecy until you reveal the secret yourself.

Snorri is super-busy, so anything that lets him keep things off his plate is worth it, in my opinion.

[X] [Letters]: Knowledge about Vaul's priesthood
[X] [Letters]: Knowledge about Caledor

More information about a priesthood of smiths? Yes, please!
And friendly draks? That you ride? Now she's just putting you on!
 
From what we know of the timeline, the Ancestors only emerged as cultural leaders about 1,400 years ago, and it presumably took some time to reform dwarf society. Snorri has been alive for two thirds of the time that the Ancestors have been around, I think. Anyone more than a few hundred years older than Snorri should remember the pre-Ancestor defined Dwarven culture.

I remember within the first century of the story, the youngest ancestor of Clan Winterhearth was more than two centuries older than Snorri.

That means there must be even older ancestors alive right now who predate the beginning of Time of Ancestors just in Clan Winterhearth.

And this generation lives for a long time, if we remember that Snorri Whitebeard, Or Snorri Grungnisson, hasn't even started his reign yet. He will, as per records, rule for more than 1200 years. And he is already ancient.

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On that note, I reckon there's barely a century left before at least the greatest of the Ancestors God's, Grungni, Thungni, Valaya, Gazul, vanish, and the Golden Age proper starts.

Completeing ny left over Ancestor God Rune research before that, as well getting T5 Gromril and/or chainforger to an extent to be recognized by some of them would a good idea, methinks.
 
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[X] Plan Obvious

[X] [Secret] Tell them: Gromrilklad rewards altered, the highest levels of the Cult made aware but sworn to secrecy until you reveal the secret yourself.



[X] [Letters]: Knowledge about Vaul's priesthood
[X] [Letters]: Knowledge about Caledor
 
[X] [Secret] Tell them: Gromrilklad rewards altered, the highest levels of the Cult made aware but sworn to secrecy until you reveal the secret yourself.
 
I remember within the first century of the story, the youngest ancestor of Clan Winterhearth was more than two centuries older than Snorri.

That means there must be even older ancestors alive right now who predate the beginning of Time of Ancestors just in Clan Winterhearth.

And this generation lives for a long time, if we remember that Snorri Whitebeard, Or Snorri Grungnisson, hasn't even started his reign yet. He will, as per records, rule for more than 1200 years. And he is already ancient.

----------------------------------------------------------

On that note, I reckon there's barely a century left before at least the greatest of the Ancestors God's, Grungni, Thungni, Valaya, Gazul, vanish, and the Golden Age proper starts.

Completeing ny left over Ancestor God Rune research before that, as well getting T5 Gromril and/or chainforger to an extent to be recognized by some of them would a good idea, methinks.
It's notable that the timeline is a bit... odd. It's way too tight around here, basically. It needs an extra thousand or two years at a minimum between the fall of the polar gates and the rise of the ancestors to be completely sensible. But it's not really a big deal as long as you don't worry about it too hard.

Ancestor gods generally vanished around 400 A.P. iirc.
 
It's notable that the timeline is a bit... odd. It's way too tight around here, basically. It needs an extra thousand or two years at a minimum between the fall of the polar gates and the rise of the ancestors to be completely sensible. But it's not really a big deal as long as you don't worry about it too hard.

Ancestor gods generally vanished around 400 A.P. iirc.
Eh, most of the issue is how soulcake extended the lifespans. I'd guess that either the fall of the Polar Gates was pushed back several millennia or some extreme time dilation affected the World's Edge Mountains. I consider the latter possibility unlikely.
 
Hmmm.

Thinking about giving the thread a little riddle to decipher tomorrow, since the vote is pretty much decided already.
 
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Is it possible that our standing with the Cult of Valaya will grow more than just +1 because I don't think they were expecting to get gromril chainmail with their request, and dwarfs are known to reciprocate if the extra mile was taken to finish their commission.
 
It's notable that the timeline is a bit... odd. It's way too tight around here, basically. It needs an extra thousand or two years at a minimum between the fall of the polar gates and the rise of the ancestors to be completely sensible. But it's not really a big deal as long as you don't worry about it too hard.

Ancestor gods generally vanished around 400 A.P. iirc.
My general solution to any timeline conundrums has pretty much always been 'chaos storm broke linear time for a bit' and use that to make whatever I need to fit do so. Might be something similar here.
 
[Non Canon] To Walk the Lands Our Ancestors' Formed, +10 to a RER Roll [USED]
To Walk the Lands Our Ancestors' Formed

A forge dimmed and cooled, a hearth banked low and dying. Chants silenced and the ring of shaping metal stilled. It was unnatural Dirbuk Mirthforge thought as he ordered his tools for the last time in a workspace over five centuries old. A day had not gone by where some work was being done here, either the forging of his art, the grumbling of negotiations, or the soft crackling of a cozy fire. But now it was silent and would remain so. Already the runes standing vigil over his vault had been released from their duty, and the massive doors hung eerily open revealing the glittering treasures and reagents he had accumulated over his long life. His instructions on how to dispense of his wealth lay crisply on the table in front of it, impossible to ignore. For on that very same table lay the last and greatest of his creations, a circlet of gromril blazing with runes of power. Fit for the eldest longbeards, to be worn with pride when representing their clan to the greater hold. None had commissioned the work from him, none had promised payment for his last work. It was rune work for the simple pleasure of creating runes of power, for the simple purpose of crafting art. Who ultimately received it he cared little about, for he would be gone from this world before the decision was made.

He divested himself of his runic weapons and talismans and proceed out of his workshop clad only in the simple garments of a traveling ranger, a long hooded black cloak. Brown leather armor one could buy from a journeying tanner and solid black boots that he had worn for centuries. And in his pouch, he carried some rations, a waterskin, and a single candle. Dipping his head in greeting to the gate guards as he passed, and in such a manner that they would not recognize him when his descendant's questioned them, he began to walk. To the rising sun, and the mountains that were its foundation. The World's Edge Mountains that his Ancestors had walked themselves.

As he walked, Dirbuk heard the words of his master, reverberating through a workshop very similar to the one that had just been left behind. Words of power, of instruction, and of wisdom. And of the final lesson apprentices never appreciated until their master vanished, like a breath of frosted air. Just as he had never understood when his master rambled about cycles and returning to the roots, so to did his apprentice fail to comprehend. But now they would, and the darkness would be lit by fires of understanding. It was fitting, as a runesmith, that one would seek to emulate the Ancestor Gods. And what better way than to seek where the Ancestors' started when one is dying? To seek where everything truly began at your end?

For days he walked, slowly curving his path until he was walking south along the edge of the Mountains. The foolishness at Karak Kadrin did not slow him, for he did not carry anything with him on his pilgrimage, and the beardlings who disagreed quieted at his indignant grumbling. After that unpleasantness, it was smooth walking. Few beasts dared to block his path, but with some quick flourishes of his woodsmen ax, they stopped becoming problems. Slowly days became longer and nights became shorter. With each step, though, he could feel time eating its way through his marrow, and age press down upon his shoulders like a yoke. Pride and duty kept him walking, but it could not last forever. His strength was eroding like limestone next to rushing water. Each drop carrying a little bit more away. And there were so many drops now.

But as he walked, he sensed two more presences next to him. Ancient beyond comprehension, they wore age like the mantles of kings, and in their wake time bowed before their authority. Thungni, from whom Dirbuk received the right to forge runes and will into being power unmatched, walked two steps behind and a step to his right. Gazul, who held dominion over the halls of ancestors which Dirbuk would be joining, walked two steps behind and a step to his left. As he made camp though and saw only one set of tracks to his fire, he knew that it was simply a tired mind playing tricks. It was a warm comfort, the tricks his mind played on him. For there was peace in knowing that in passing out of the realm of one ancestor, he would pass into the realm of another.

Months passed in his journey. Some days spent resting, recuperating spent strength to walk another mile. Other days simply moving forward with sheer inertia. But the distance was traveled. Zhufbar passed by him in a daze. Karaz-a-Karak passed by with nary a thought. Karak Eight-Peaks passed without a glance at its splendor. Karak Azul without any hesitation. It was somewhere between Karak Azul and Karak Zorn that he stopped his journey. Dirbuk took in the sites, of white-capped peaks and valleys lush with life. This is what the Ancestor Gods saw when they moved north, these very same peaks, and the very same valleys. It was, gratifying, to see and experience this. At the end.

With a weary heart and weak body, Dirbuk found a small cave to rest in. He watched the sunset for a final time, and as dusk came he lit the candle he had lovingly carried all this time in his journey. While watching the stars his eyelids drooped lower and lower, and when the candle finally guttered out he was feasting and drinking in the halls of Gazul with the wife of his youth by his side and his ancestors ready to celebrate the deeds and honors of their descendant who had finally joined them at long last.

A/N: I saw something once where a runesmith will just disappear one day with their final work left in their workshop. I don't know how accurate that is, but I figured that I would give my take on it. This has been percolating in my mind for some time now, and I'm glad that I was finally able to find the time to get it down on paper. I hope you enjoy the read!
 
I wonder if all the debt we've piled on helped send Otrek to an early grave.

[X] [Secret] Tell them: Gromrilklad rewards altered, the highest levels of the Cult made aware but sworn to secrecy until you reveal the secret yourself.
[X] Plan Obvious Accept Grungni
- [x] [Simple] Armoured Maidens: [Cost: (12 -6) =6 actions] Due end of Turn 40. Productivity like No Other will proc. Gain 70 Favour and 1 Standing with the Cult of Valaya. The Clergy of Valaya are making plans to expand the Valkyrie Guard in preparation for what they believe is a coming wave of colonization across the Karaz Ankor in the future. Given your history with the Cult, they've come to you wondering if you had the inclination to create armour for some of the future Valkyrie Guard that will no doubt come from the endeavour. The number is not the sum total of suits, but ones specially made for their eldest and most veteran Matrons. The foundational core of the future Valkyrie Guard in these future-Holds. The Cult will hold the suits in their vaults until such a time they are needed. 4 actions
- [x] Render Aid: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Can be taken multiple times. Roll for usefulness, additional actions apply bonus to roll. Gain reputation and +2 bonus per action to Recruitment Dice. You formed these Hearthguard to combat all the ills that befall the dwarfen people. Send them out, render aid, earn goodwill and spread the word of your retainers and their stated mission beyond the borders of Kraka Drakk.
-- [x] Elderly Expertise: Gain 40 Favour +? With Stormpeak. The Brana are actively looking for aid in the construction of their new home. While the work of the Kings is certainly a great deal of aid, they are never ones to look away from any Dawi willing to lend hard-won experience and knowhow to be given the task of helping them design and build their next settlement. 2 retainer actions
-[X] [Simple] Gromrilklad: [Cost: 12 actions] Due end of Turn 47. Productivity like No Other will proc. Gain 3 Standing and 50 Favour with the Grungni. There is no one else who can take on the commission. The Cult of Grungni has come to you seeking Gromril chainmail, though only for the highest ranking priests of every Major Hold and the eldest members of the Order of the Stone Wall, the principal military order of the Cult. As well as regular armour for the rest of the order of course, because why not? They are patient at the very least.
--[X] Accept
[X] [Letters]: Knowledge about Avelorn's Magical Traditions
 
[X] Plan Obvious
[X] [Secret] Tell them: Gromrilklad rewards altered, the highest levels of the Cult made aware but sworn to secrecy until you reveal the secret yourself.

Tell them to spare them grief, especially since we are not accepting comissions, outside of real, masterful works.
This is a runesmith quest not a factory worker quest. Latest armors at least had novelty by being made from a new material.
Seriously, the thought of going through several turns of pumping out nameless equipment we'll never see again saps my willingness to live.
 
[X] Plan Obvious
[X] [Secret] Tell them: Gromrilklad rewards altered, the highest levels of the Cult made aware but sworn to secrecy until you reveal the secret yourself.

Sounds like proper Runesmith thinking to me.
 
I don"t think any dwarf would want their corpse to just be left wherever. And dwarven dislike of metaphors would probably not accept "he went to Gazul's halls" as an excuse to just leave their mortal body behind.
 
I was rereading the quest, and I remember this part after we did the trade for all the versions of rune of waking and Valma thinks we were just humoring her with the trade, but I dont see it, does anyone remember where this was?
This is all I could find in my searching around sadly.

"Hmph. It seems my vote for you at Rhunkalbrogg wasn't misplaced. Not that I believed it such, but the confirmation is still appreciated," the Gift Giver grouses nonchalantly, signing the contract swiftly and concisely.

Valma almost chokes on her drink, and it is all she can do to maintain her composure at that revelation.

"Well, if that's everything I'd best be off. A good night to you Lady Stoneshaper," he grunts out, getting out of his seat and nodding at her a final time before walking out into the night.

When she hears the footsteps fade completely out of range, Valma smacks her chest and downs the contents of her mug in a single gulp.

I feel like this part has been overlooked but it looks like the Slayer equivalent in this timeline is more akin to Ironbreakers than anything else.
As other mentioned, wrong god, and its actually a canon thing distinct from Slayers that's just been brought up here since we're far enough back to see their founding. From one funny perspective if our Hearth Guard end up existing into the Time of Woes like these guys, the Order of the Stone Wall will only be a century or two older, which is an odd idea to contemplate.
 
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