Alright. I give up. It's clear that people are determined to restart the same bullshit, so I'm just not going to engage in it anymore.

I'll be back at 9 tomorrow morning.
 
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If manaan wants to start fucking with out attempts to defend our province and push back chaos then I would be willing to work with the cult's of Sigmar and Ulric, to knock them down a bit.
That's the thing though, neither sigmar nor ulric (or atleast their cults) wants to take fight nor would they be able to provide the same services that Manaan does.
 
I wonder, if Freddy had reacted to some of his Witch Hunters plotting (and eventually trying) to kill him and subsequently killed half of all the priests of Sigmar in Ostland, would people also be super surprised and mad that the Grand Theogonist would have more than a small problem with that and we'd have to make amends or face severe consequences? Honestly this feels like people being mad because they didn't realize that Manann was also a really important god, and I guess are refusing to read or understand the QM's repeated explanations that no, really, he really is. And also failing to grasp that sometimes the cults are going to have extremist splinter factions who will do bad things, that the cults themselves are strongly opposed to. If you react to those splinter factions with a mass purge that kills a whole bunch of innocent priests of that cult, you should expect major blowback. This has been litigated and explained a dozen times now at least.
I think it can be explained from people really not liking the Jung situation and not wanting a repeat of that.
 
It could be because I'm the one writing it, author blindness is a thing. But acting like she's demanding Frederick bend over while she pegs him with a narwhal horn strap-on instead of trying to be as straightforward and swift as possible about this matter so that the faithful of Ostland can be reassured so as to bring no harm to Ostland's economy and people, the mobs of Marienburg placated so they won't bother Frederick anymore, and Frederick able to continue on with his life without having to deal with any of this again, possibly even gain an ally against House Rutger while within Marienburg though she doesn't yet know that Frederick is an enemy of House Rutger, I just...I don't see it. I really don't.

It's not on you at any level, Torroar. Some people just don't want to pony up because if you're hindering the MC in the Quest in any way, you are supposed to be an enemy to annihilate, no matter what the situation is.
 
Alright. I give up. It's clear that people are determined to restart the same bullshit, so I'm just not going on engage in it anymore.
Yeah, same. Honestly, when people start to give up on even trying to participate in a thread because of the toxicity of the discussion? That's the point I start rooting for threadbans, quite bluntly.
 
Right now it's just the cult and the priests but i can guarantee you that if we don't appease manaan in someway that he will make his displeasure known in time. The cult is just showing it's displeasure first.
They are literally robbing us of our best means to defend ourselves!
And what if we pay? Morr is important, sigmar, taal, rhya, shallya, ulric. Are their clergy going to scam us next? Why not, we're so pious(such an easy mark), this is why the politics of this thing matter.
And the politics are bullshit
 
The Cult of Manaan is not going to lose track of ships as large as their temple-ship due to being stolen by a merchant house to play pirate on Ostland sea trade.

I mean they lost track of the holders of the shore and let them fuck up fleets across the entire old world?

This actually seems like it would be much easier to get away with than that!
 
It could be because I'm the one writing it, author blindness is a thing. But acting like she's demanding Frederick bend over while she pegs him with a narwhal horn strap-on instead of trying to be as straightforward and swift as possible about this matter so that the faithful of Ostland can be reassured so as to bring no harm to Ostland's economy and people, the mobs of Marienburg placated so they won't bother Frederick anymore, and Frederick able to continue on with his life without having to deal with any of this again, possibly even gain an ally against House Rutger while within Marienburg though she doesn't yet know that Frederick is an enemy of House Rutger, I just...I don't see it. I really don't.

I think most of us don't see it either. I'm tempted to agree with your point about bad faith arguments.
 
[x] we got this
-[x] Sacrifice Them To Manann: Set the things aflame, get some dockspace back, and offer a minor but appreciated appeasement to Manann. [Minor Appeasement/Maghda Approval]
-[x] The Greatships of Ostland
--[x] Give Them 2

-[x] Accept the Keelhauling
--[x] The Rambler
 
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possibly even gain an ally against House Rutger while within Marienburg
She is exceedingly well positioned to become a good ally against our enemies in Marienburg since she already has issues with the Rutger Priest of Manaan, if we can appease Manaan enough and maybe try and work some diplomacy while in Marienburg we might get a strong ally. This trip could turn out a net positive if we play our cards right.
 
[] plan middle road.
[] Sacrifice Them To Manann: Set the things aflame, get some dockspace back, and offer a minor but appreciated appeasement to Manann. [Minor Appeasement/Maghda Approval]

[] The Greatships of Ostland: Sacrifice requires actual sacrifice. Wolfships are common vessels, and war galleys are meant for close coastal patrolling. You can rebuild later. Perhaps even with actual blessings and aid from the Cathedral, if you accept a bit of loss beforehand.
-[] Give Them: It stings, yes, but you'll know that the Cult of Manann will not misuse them. It would literally be sacrilege to do so. They will be honored vessels, surely, given what they are they'll not just sit in dock doing nothing. It could, even, show them off to the rest of the Empire in a positive light given time. Frederick's Fist, Natasha's Grace, Oskar's Omen.

[] Accept the Keelhauling: It will hurt. That's rather the point. The only thing to think about is how sever you want to be about it. This is less about appeasing the priests, and more about quieting the mob, the fury of the common flock....and some of the priests who are especially angry. Who wish punishment, regardless of the fact that very, very technically, you were legally in the right. (Choose Ship Choice From Below)
-[] Five-Tined Hunter: A wolf ship of the Cult of Manann that sails regularly against corsairs, pirates, worshippers of Stromfels, Druchii, and so on. [Dangerous/Appeasement/Approval Gain]
 
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It could be because I'm the one writing it, author blindness is a thing. But acting like she's demanding Frederick bend over while she pegs him with a narwhal horn strap-on instead of trying to be as straightforward and swift as possible about this matter so that the faithful of Ostland can be reassured so as to bring no harm to Ostland's economy and people, the mobs of Marienburg placated so they won't bother Frederick anymore, and Frederick able to continue on with his life without having to deal with any of this again, possibly even gain an ally against House Rutger while within Marienburg though she doesn't yet know that Frederick is an enemy of House Rutger, I just...I don't see it. I really don't.
People don't want to give up our assets and are being toxic about it.

That's not on you.
 
It could be because I'm the one writing it, author blindness is a thing. But acting like she's demanding Frederick bend over while she pegs him with a narwhal horn strap-on instead of trying to be as straightforward and swift as possible about this matter so that the faithful of Ostland can be reassured so as to bring no harm to Ostland's economy and people, the mobs of Marienburg placated so they won't bother Frederick anymore, and Frederick able to continue on with his life without having to deal with any of this again, possibly even gain an ally against House Rutger while within Marienburg though she doesn't yet know that Frederick is an enemy of House Rutger, I just...I don't see it. I really don't.
Anyway to talk about something better, this sounds great.
Get that alliance, and who knows... it sure would be a shame if Rutger gets hit from the Manaan direction too while we start squeezing and making them come begging and groveling for mercy (that certainly won't be granted), wouldn't it?
 
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I am trying to restain the thread goin overboard. No more than 2 ships no more than middle option. This make sense. More than that is pure insanity.

Honestly contempt for compromise is what I read more then any attempt to reasonably restrain. You explicitly blame the cult as whole for what fanatic lunatics did. You explicitly consider the deaths of innocent priests acceptable, every statement you have made in this subject reeks of egocentricem, never considering the cults side in this.

Yeah very innocent those was. Like the hadn't sunk some of our fleet already.
If people in your workplace were killed because one guy did a crime, would you hold it together as well as Magdha does here? So kindly cease the "give her nothing" rhetoric. It's toxic.
 
Maghda has strongly suggested not going for the most dangerous of them all, has said-without-saying that she's really expecting Frederick to benefit from the healing of either the Light of Summer or Adira's magic healing, and that she's trying to keep the waters safe from any major other dangers in Keelhauling. She had explicitly refused to try and tear out the treasury of Ostland, and instead has offered up an opportunity with things that are far more in line with the actual faith, as in 'sacrificing storied ships to Manann are consistently a well-favored sacrifice' as per canon materials, while knowing that doing so is in fact exceedingly cheaper for Ostland's treasury in the long run rather than the insane fines being demanded by others in the Cult. She has explicitly stated she doesn't want this to get into a fight between the Cult and Ostland, and wants this to be concluded swiftly so that the angrier and most violent elements of the Cult quiet the hell down with Frederick definitely still alive and capable of acting and doing things at the end. She did not yell at Frederick out in the open, in front of everyone, and she deliberately sent her bodyguards away so that no one would see the two of them rather casually and frankly discussing matters, accepting the failures of her predecessor and the Cult while frankly pointing out that every Cult has had problems - and that she's still working hard to solve hers. She has ruled out the other methods of Penance that Frederick quite simply could not do, and has come damn near close to outright saying 'hey, man, let's try to keep you as safe as possible and not dead, huh?' without actually saying it.

It could be because I'm the one writing it, author blindness is a thing. But acting like she's demanding Frederick bend over while she pegs him with a narwhal horn strap-on instead of trying to be as straightforward and swift as possible about this matter so that the faithful of Ostland can be reassured so as to bring no harm to Ostland's economy and people, the mobs of Marienburg placated so they won't bother Frederick anymore, and Frederick able to continue on with his life without having to deal with any of this again, possibly even gain an ally against House Rutger while within Marienburg though she doesn't yet know that Frederick is an enemy of House Rutger, I just...I don't see it. I really don't.
It's just people being salty. Maghda's attitude shone clear through in her actions and dialogue, and it's that of someone stuck in a position she doesn't want to be in and who wants to work out a reasonable solution so that both parties can go back to dealing with actual problems.
 
What is the cult planning to use the ships for if we give them some? Like are they just gonna use them to patrol the northern seas? Or are they gonna use them elsewhere so as to "punish" Ostland and the Trident with their absence?

Because you need quite a bit of logistical support and proper equipment and port facilities to keep a ship like that running, and I don't know if other areas of the Empire would have those facilities.

Would we be making money off of them buying munitions and parts from us to keep the ships supplied or would they expect us to supply them for free?
 
It's not on you at any level, Torroar. Some people just don't want to pony up because if you're hindering the MC in the Quest in any way, you are supposed to be an enemy to annihilate, no matter what the situation is.
And other people just can't in to risk analysis and just want to see shit burn drown.
 
Many thanks for the clarification^^, and I said this while already liking the no-nonsense matriarch already :)

She did a solid after a solid to us. Just that tax exception and no angry mob was a big solid.
 
They are literally robbing us of our best means to defend ourselves!
And what if we pay? Morr is important, sigmar, taal, rhya, shallya, ulric. Are their clergy going to scam us next? Why not, we're so pious(such an easy mark), this is why the politics of this thing matter.
And the politics are bullshit
Well if someone else tried to get us to kowtow to their party line without a legitimate grieavance (which the cult of manaan has) there wouldn't be any, or atleast not that much pushback to us resisting that attempt. The cult gained one up on us when we slaughtered a bunch of priests (even if it was for semi-legit reasons) and now we have to kowtow a bit.
 
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