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If she didn't mention them, then I'm running under the assumption she didn't see them. Because for her not to do so would feel rather out of character- Mathilde's no saint, but she is a devout Ranaldite.

A devout Ranaldite who wields a giant greatsword despite one of the core doctrines of that cult being 'Don't use giant swords, use daggers instead.'

Mathilde has a unique relationship with the tenets of her god.

Not to mention that a devout Ranaldite could happily own slaves, and acquiring them could be an act of worship as long as it involved theft or deception. Not all worshippers of Ranald, indeed, not all parts of his cult, worship the same aspects of Ranald. A devotee of the Deceiver or Night Prowler may not recognise the Protector as being part of their god.

Mathilde may or may not have personal moral problems with slavery, but so may any Imperial citizen, whichever god they favour.
 
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A devout Ranaldite who wields a giant greatsword despite one of the core doctrines of that cult being 'Don't use giant swords, use daggers instead.'

Mathilde has a unique relationship with the tenets of her god.

I still think the greatsword and dagger are metaphorical, not literal (elegant and subtle solutions that do the minimum required damage even in violence, not brute force) and that we are following the tenet just fine.
 
[X] Citharus, Barbitus, and Timpania

Let's check in on Horstmann's ducklings.

[X] Thane Borek Forkbeard
[X] Head Ranger Snorri Farstrider
[X] Head Engineer Gotrek Gurnisson

Passing on Gotri's offer to Snorri and Gotrek is valuable, as is checking in on Borek's mental state and thoughts on the expedition after our stunt with Vlag.

[X] Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart the Younger
[X] Preceptor Joerg von Zavstra

We should talk to our fellow councillors and find out how they're faring. Wulfhart Jr. pulled a clutch save, and Joerg has experience fighting Chaos we can tap.

[X] Visit Uzkulak, the Chaos Dwarf equivalent to Barak Varr

I'm tentatively leaning towards this, as long as we treat it like a scouting/casing mission. That means no going wild throwing thousands of gold at slavers to buy books, and it also means no intentional wrecking havoc when it could draw a ton of unwanted heat towards the expedition.

Observe the atrocities, note the layout, case the joint, then write it all up and submit to the Grey Order, while keeping a copy for ourselves. Someday we'll deal with this place, but that time isn't now.
 
I think Fog of War would be simplified a bit from this, in that for enemies the fog isn't any more magical than a regular thick fog - the magical bit is summoning the fog in the first place, and allies being able to see through it.

In my wildest fantasies, we get to make several spells of varying difficulties that are all approximately the same spell, but outputting different quantities of this fog.
The issue is the fog being selectively applicable, it needs to make a decision. Spells cannot make decisions, and the wizard cannot make such decisions without a great deal of overhead or a cheat. Spells that create real effects that do real things are dramatically simpler by contrast. Keep the effect as simple as possible, the more conditions the harder

In essence you can achieve the same effect by dropping a blinding curse, making a target group unable to perceive anything, or by more accurately deploying real fog onto an enemy squad specifically taking it out of play until it blunders out of the fog in disorder
Max is the third and final of those that were on counterspell duty, and he's just as out-of-sight and subsequently easy to find as Michel, and for much the same reason; he's tucked himself away in his room and at your enquiry says to leave him be unless it's dinner time or another attack is happening. A few soft questions pries out of him that his own participation earned him a splitting headache, though it can't be too bad since it doesn't stop him from describing it at length to you once he gets going. You're quite used to Max and his foibles, and nodding along while he complains is a small price to pay for his able assistance, so you allow him to exhaust his grumbling before you excuse yourself and move on.
Practice from dwarf wrangling?
Seems like a long wait though
"I should be asking you that question," Asarnil says with a laugh. "If that had worked, the poets would be fighting each other for the honour of putting that maneuver of yours into verse."

You grimace. "I'm aware. But my ego will heal."

"As will Deathfang's," he says, slapping the side of the dragon's neck companionably. "That's the Slaaneshi for you, no matter how quick you expect them to be, they'll be quicker. He had her completely by surprise and she was still around his neck in a trice."
So...Deathfang's dramatic divebomb had a display purpose too huh.
"So, what do you think? Greater Daemon? Daemon Prince?"

"That's the other thing about them, you can never tell just by looking. The other three stick to a theme for Greater Daemons, but Slaanesh likes variety. Unless you can work out that one's name and track her history, you might never know whether she was always a part of the whole or an elevated pawn."

"I suppose if I had got the kill, I'd probably never be able to properly categorize it," you say with a smile. "Might be for the best."
Imagine the Unknown Greater Daemon niggling at us forever.
"There's an elegance to getting your appreciation in coins and ingots and gemstones. If someone doesn't pay what you're owed, it's a lot easier to burn their house down and loot the ruins than it is to pin them down and demand accolades."

You laugh, and thank Asarnil for his time and his insight.
I'm not sure he was joking there...
You're the natural choice for such a project, but your recommendation that you go in alone and invisible is rejected for Dwarven reasons. First contact with the lost Hold must be made by a Dwarf, so that they can either be welcomed back properly or the Grudge for whatever has happened to them can be properly witnessed and later recorded. You grumble, but by now know which battles can be won and can't be when it comes to Dwarves, so you simply add Johann. If the group can't have stealth, it should have firepower.
Dwarf infection spreads
If the Wizards tell you to do something, do it, even if it's weird.
We earned the trust!
You shrug, and your Illusion does too. "None at all, it's pretty grim. After the losses were tallied, some Dwarfholds were talking about sealing their entrances and dwindling. But Thorgrim declared that the Silver Age was over, and that the Age of Reckoning has begun. The Karaz Ankor will repay every Grudge before it fades from the world."

Mutters answer that. "This isn't the sort of thing they say," you can just hear someone saying. "Maybe Tudnak's right."

"It will take more than one earthquake only the Rune-pokers can feel before I stick my neck out."
Shock therapy seemed to penetrate. One thing about daemons is they can be fairly limited outside their domain, so theres a certain predictability in their chaos.


Also that is a really odd phrasing to use on runesmiths.
"Here, I think I've got an idea. Budge over." A moment later, a much louder voice asks, "what about the Elgi? They turn up for this Great War of yours?"

You smile. "They sent three people and they still act smug about it."

Silence answers that. "I think it might be real," someone finally says.
None or many would both fit the daemonic answer. Only the truth would be so lame.
"I'm not giving up, I'm changing the engagement. They're not going to trust anything we say. You know how you befriend a paranoid stray? You don't grab it by the scruff of the neck, you just leave some food out and leave it to it. Eventually it realizes that you're not out to hurt it."

"So we leave?"

"We leave. Send word to Praag for them to send word to Karaz-a-Karak, and they'll have a gyrocopter full of Longbeards trying to coax them out by the time we get back. Best we can do. Look, I won't pretend that I know the inside of a Dwarven head better than you, but I do know how to manage paranoia. I grew up in a College dedicated to it."

"She's right," Johann says. "Like long-tailed cats in a room full of rocking chairs, the lot of them."
Practice!
This is going to be a pretty pickle for Thorgrim to untangle.
We should take the classes for BM enchantment from the colleges before we try that.

It's the last enchanting class we can take iirc?
Last class proper. Once we take that class its the 1-1 Master Tutoring.
Why? Seriously this has nothing to do with Slaanesh's domain, if anything the search for knowledge is Tzeench.
Actually if you check back to the fight the Slaanesh temptations included knowledge.
The quest for knowledge for self improvement is more Slaaneshi than Tzeentchian.
It is given for greater demons, and we only killed lesser ones.

Which, by the way, tells that Snorri had a particulary interesting time in combat today.
Not that, its the challenge relative to the person. Mathilde's a sufficiently accomplished fighter that killing lesser daemons would not be remarkable except in large quantities. Its risky, but she has advantages.
This discussion has happened already, except it was the Deceiver versus the Grey College. Unstoppable force, immovable object, et cetera.
We've just seen it I think? The Vlag dwarf paranoia wouldn't let the Protector register in the right way?

[x] Head Engineer Gotrek Gunnison
[x] Ranging far ahead of the convoy
[x] Visit Uzkulak, the Chaos Dwarf equivalent to Barak Varr
[x] Visit the combes that Qrech told you about
 
I plan to gather intelligence about the place and give the write up to the Grey College. That's doing something about the place.

I am not sure how interested the Grey College about those combes.

I don't think they'll turn it down, don't get me wrong.

But... the combes in question are in Dark Lands.

Half a world away from Empire, and of very dubious strategic benefit to it.

Were we talking about a Skaven outpost in Empire, or at least in Kislev, info about which they could flip for some gain, that would be another story.
 
That's a very poor argument. We know that this expedition is very likely to end in a social showdown where the forces of "stay and fight" are arrayed against "evacuate what we can." We know because everyone has been telling us that for ingame years. We have zero special indication that the skaven are up to something.

We don't know that at all, it depends on a vast array of factors. Even in the case that it does come down to that though, "Sidequests" that Mathilde goes on seem to me far more likely to sway the balance of thought towards Mathilde then another action spent chatting with someone. Vlag alone has probably done more to give her voice weight then all the social options that will be picked throughout the expedition.

Mathilde is very and almost uniquely qualified to look into things like these potential diversions, even if some of them don't end up with anything relevant others likely will have at least something of interest and will be impressive to members of the expedition that she was capable enough to do it at all. Meanwhile she has merely solid diplo.

A social showdown is not necessarily best won by running down the checklists of people to talk with.
 
We had zero indication that Karak Vlag was a back door into reality for the chaos forces to make use of. Not every thing needs to have years of in game foreshadowing to be an issue, the option has been presented to us, it's not a player option. Chances are the QM will be dice rolling to see what the skaven are up to and if he rolls that they want to be on the look out for something coming from kislev due to the Ice witches clearing the pass we'll have no warning about an attack or interception unless Mathilde you know does her scouting thing. What you've said is not a valid counter argument.
No ones arguing that there won't be something interesting, or some great wrong or opportunity.

people are arguing that there will be something to tempt player to use up the limited resources of the trip.

We can't hit every side plot and make it to Dum in good shape.

That's why Boney is dangling them in front of us.
 
We had zero indication that Karak Vlag was a back door into reality for the chaos forces to make use of. Not every thing needs to have years of in game foreshadowing to be an issue, the option has been presented to us, it's not a player option. Chances are the QM will be dice rolling to see what the skaven are up to and if he rolls that they want to be on the look out for something coming from kislev due to the Ice witches clearing the pass we'll have no warning about an attack or interception unless Mathilde you know does her scouting thing. What you've said is not a valid counter argument.
Sure it's a valid counter-argument. I weight "something we know is important" more heavily than I weight "something that might be very important and might be of zero importance," because I value consistency.
He chuckles, and then swears as something inside what he's working on goes ping. "What's your actual opinion on this Expedition?"

You consider your thoughts on the matter, then you consider your audience. "I think that they're trying to rescue ghosts, and I think I'm going to be hard-pressed to keep them from joining them."
I want the trust of the other expedition leaders, and I prioritize that more than the plot gacha.
 
I'm tentatively leaning towards this, as long as we treat it like a scouting/casing mission. That means no going wild throwing thousands of gold at slavers to buy books, and it also means no intentional wrecking havoc when it could draw a ton of unwanted heat towards the expedition.

Remember that we'd mostly be trading with other visiting merchants, not the Chaos Dwarves themselves. They may take a cut of taxes, but

It would feel poetic to rob the Chaos Dwarves of at least as much tax as we'd pay, if we can do so safely.
I still think the greatsword and dagger are metaphorical, not literal (elegant and subtle solutions that do the minimum required damage even in violence, not brute force) and that we are following the tenet just fine.

Looks at the giant Mountain of Burning Death...
 
I think we should go to dwarf Vegas because we may roll for opportunities for some nice shinnies. Than we also scout the place out look for weak point and ways to hopefully burn it down to below the rockbed. If we have to spend money to do it I would rather do that. But also consider that buying food would help and we may need to since we are behind schedule and will need food for the way back.
 
Sure it's a valid counter-argument. I weight "something we know is important" more heavily than I weight "something that might be very important and might be of zero importance," because I value consistency.

I want the trust of the other expedition leaders, and I prioritize that more than the plot gacha.
You were against visiting Karak Vlag for exactly the same reasons. I'm sorry but given this isn't prose but a quest/game the Dice mean that things that have been forshadowed for a long while can be entirely negated and things can hit us from no where the QM giving us these options alone is enough ground work for Skaven attacking us to be plausible we cannot say we weren't given the chance to scout and see if it would be an issue. WE're a grey magister lord we should be playing like one.

When the QM gives us options there's something behind them it may not have any importance for the expedition but it's not going to be worthless either way and I'd rather take the scouting option then have nothing but socials over and over again until we get to Karak Dum.
 
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We have books on Kislev, he took courses about them, we know they are slavers, whether or not Mathidle's supposedly delicate eyes have actually seen on the reality of it or not. It feels fundamentally hypocritical of Mathilde to object not to the existence of slavery but simply to the sight of it.
Would you react the same way to reading about somebody dying as you would to someone actually dying in front of your eyes? As sad is it is, 'out of sight, out of mind' is a very real thing.
A devout Ranaldite who wields a giant greatsword despite one of the core doctrines of that cult being 'Don't use giant swords, use daggers instead.'

Mathilde has a unique relationship with the tenets of her god.

Not to mention that a devout Ranaldite could happily own slaves, and acquiring them could be an act of worship as long as it involved theft or deception. Not all worshippers of Ranald, indeed, not all parts of his cult, worship the same aspects of Ranald. A devotee of the Deceiver or Night Prowler may not recognise the Protector as being part of their god.

Mathilde may or may not have personal moral problems with slavery, but so may any Imperial citizen, whichever god they favour.
In general terms, you might be right. But we're not talking general terms, we're talking about Mathilde's specific relationship with Ranald. And honestly, even putting that aside there have been a number of indications that Mathilde would not be happy with slavery (things like her wondering whether the Rat Mothers consented to their state or not, for example).
 
[x] Head Ranger Snorri Farstrider
[x] Citharus, Barbitus, and Timpania
[x] Magister Michel Solmann
[x] Ranging far ahead of the convoy
[x] Visit Uzkulak, the Chaos Dwarf equivalent to Barak Varr
[x] Visit the combes that Qrech told you about
 
Feels like you're basically saying the voter base is too incompetent and won't be able to judge risk rewards well enough. So better to blind ourselves and just hope things go well.

Seems like a very defeatist sentiment, and not particularly interesting to play.
Not what I'm saying at all.

We will do some of the side mission.

I'm just saying not to do them all.

And the skaven one is... I would rather pass on this one and hope for a better one later.
 
In general terms, you might be right. But we're not talking general terms, we're talking about Mathilde's specific relationship with Ranald. And honestly, even putting that aside there have been a number of indications that Mathilde would not be happy with slavery (things like her wondering whether the Rat Mothers consented to their state or not, for example).

I don't get your point, visiting Uzkulak doesn't mean that Mathilde will be going "Yay slavery is A-Okay." If anything it'll do even more to reinforce that she hates it and wants it torn down. Regardless I doubt very much Mathilde would struggle to maintain her composure.
 
Not what I'm saying at all.

We will do some of the side mission.

I'm just saying not to do them all.

And the skaven one is... I would rather pass on this one and hope for a better one later.

Your argument though is by taking the skaven mission we will be sapping the expedition of manpower? Why should this be taken as a given is my point. If there's nothing worth the risk of entangling the expedition why wouldn't we just vote to leave quietly?
 
[x] Head Engineer Gotrek Gunnison
[x] Thane Borek Forkbeard
[x] Head Engineer Gotrek Gurnisson
[x] Head Ranger Snorri Farstrider
[x] Magister Egrimm van Horstmann
[x] Citharus, Barbitus, and Timpania
[x] Magister Michel Solmann
 
Would you react the same way to reading about somebody dying as you would to someone actually dying in front of your eyes? As sad is it is, 'out of sight, out of mind' is a very real thing.
In general terms, you might be right. But we're not talking general terms, we're talking about Mathilde's specific relationship with Ranald. And honestly, even putting that aside there have been a number of indications that Mathilde would not be happy with slavery (things like her wondering whether the Rat Mothers consented to their state or not, for example).

So what if she's not happy? Seriously we are going to the Chaos Wastes. She is going to see a lot of horrible stuff she can't do anything about. If she is so fragile as to find that unbearable she should have stayed in K8P (or maybe at the Colleges as a Perpetual given the nature of the world)
 
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[X] Visit Uzkulak, the Chaos Dwarf equivalent to Barak Varr
[X] Visit the combes that Qrech told you about
[X] Citharus, Barbitus, and Timpania
[X] Magister Egrimm van Horstmann
[X] Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart the Younger
 
[X] Magister Egrimm van Horstmann
[X] Head Engineer Gotrek Gurnisson
[X] Head Ranger Snorri Farstrider
[X] Preceptor Joerg von Zavstra
[X] Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart the Younger
[X] Citharus, Barbitus, and Timpania
[X] Thane Borek Forkbeard
[X] Asarnil the Dragonlord
[X] Deathfang

I'd rather we got to know the others more, and forge closer bonds.
 
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Let's just... calibrate our expectations, alright?

To quote @ctulhuslp and @13th Fleet :

This isn't going to be "Chaos Vegas", it's going to be Mathilde walking past slave pens full of people she can do nothing to help, who are destined to be worked to death by the Chaos Dwarfs, eaten by Ogres, sacrificed by God knows who, and so on.

It'll be the Chaos Eclipse Arc of Berserk: tons of demons, corruption, misery and violence, and her being helpless while looking in the eyes of the victims.

And that's fine. It'll be well written - just look at the rat mother scene - it'll affirm our resolve, it'll give us more information on how to proceed, it'll meaningfully evoke Mathilde's character and her relationship with her god.

What it won't be is fun. I'm still voting to go.
Scheduled vote count started by BoneyM on Dec 20, 2020 at 2:24 AM, finished with 308 posts and 119 votes.
 
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