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Is there anything in particular that we're saving college favour for? Our capacity to learn enemy names is about to go up: seems like a good time to commission a Burning Vengeance item.
You never know what you will need the favour for. And I sincerely doubt that the thread will consider buying burning vengeance unless it's of immediate benefit to the proposed plan turn. This turn does not call for any kinds of deep raids, so even I would probably not support it.

And I'm the guy who proposed it initially.
 
And I would give that argument more merit if people would take the time arguing what hypotheticals we might be dealing with next turn exclusively. Cartography? We can focus on getting an Esoteric in that from the Imperials and the Brettonians to compensate. The Aethyric Vitae? I mean, I was sort under the impression we already got the Dwarf's books on the warp and magic as a whole considering they don't have books on the colors. But even then, those 1% are likely to be even less relevant because as picklepikkl has said we're going to be rolling multiple times under the Skaven subject in that one turn. I don't see us rolling either the cartography or the Aethyric Vitae that much in one turn even if it's our primary project.
It literally doesn't matter? What action would we care enough about to pick as an Action but not care about missing a DC check?
 
1. That's... highly debatable. At the end of the day however, we can get something this from the colleges and the dwarves, and the colleges are much cheaper.
2. Boney said he might be making rolls for it. He was purposely ambiguous. If you want to keep an eye on him, the college would be better than the dwarves. Call it my opinion or not, but the dwarves haven't shown anything compared to wizard enchanting which at the higher levels resembles programming.
3. Anything else that doesn't add another action crunch. Maybe we want to keep it in our pocket for politics. You opinion is also noted as just that.
4. I might be willing to give up any other book purchases. But skaven is simply just not happening.
5. I think you got mixed up on the numbers? At any rate, just listing possibilities isn't enough. You are saying "Look at all this stuff we might want." I'm replying "Most of this stuff sucks, and here's why." If you don't want to argue against me, then don't. My arguments aren't only directed at you.
6. The dwarves also have absolutely nothing to do with actually manipulating magic. There has been WOG on this. The only major rune we've seen that might qualify is the Rune on our Belt and excuse me if I'd prefer not to have any miscast spells burned from our minds. The college miscast rod is pretty good. Why the hell would we want to get another from dwarves? You are basically giving your opinion and then telling me my opinions are shit.
Already I'm dropping the list format because it's no longer helpful and I think by this point neither you or I are arguing specific points. My original point was that there are other things to buy, whether I listed them or not- and to some extent there always will be.

I'm not saying this stuff does or doesn't suck. I'm not saying we urgently need any of the items I listed- I'm saying that there are enough options to spend Dwarf Favor on that soon enough we will want a fair amount sooner than later and we absolutely should be thrifty with them where we can. As I said to picklepikkl- none of us went into the Tower job expecting to heavily invest College Favor so we could drag Algard into it. A sudden opportunity to spend 10 favor to drag in everybody's favorite Runelord into one of our pet projects suddenly doesn't seem like we might know well in advance. I don't think your opinions are shit, I just think I failed in making my argument clear and had no real desire to argue with you on points I frankly didn't care about. That's on me, and for that I'm sorry for being abrasive.
 
It literally doesn't matter? What action would we care enough about to pick as an Action but not care about missing a DC check?
What option would we care enough about to pick as an action for that turn and be simultaneously concerned about failing and not apply Gambler to it? This upcoming turn might have Deciever booked, but the next one probably doesn't. Either of those options would be probably getting a +46 in light of that ignoring our extant library bonuses, of which I expect we can probably push it up to +50 Antiquarian subject book or no.
 
heading to bed, just reminding you all to vote at least 'one' snek juice action.

I don't want to wake up and see you all rationalising putting it off again.

The Boney is a trick sort, don't go letting him blind you with his towers and his Dwarfs and his Ratman to the glory of the Snek Juice.

distractions I tell you! nothing but distractions!
 
Really, Boney took pity on us spending our everything away on the library and gave us a very generous budget, enough to get three extensive collections on different subjects, and up to the second highest tier of rarity in Dwarven books per turn.

No reason not to pace ourselves.
I don't think it's the QM doing this. I think it's the dwarves.

Think about it, we are buying all this from a Dwarven factor in Barak Varr. So what does Belegar see? He gives us a mountain of treasure and we spend it all on towers and books. Mostly books. So he figures "Young Loremaster" who was Umgi poor, and now finally has a chance to make her own proper library. Now that's my court wizard, and she's going through her treasury really, really fast for a dwarf, but it's not so concerning since she's an Umgi, and they all are stupid quick and live short lives.

Still, maybe I should give her some spending money, since she spent so much of her own trying to match a Loremaster's Library. Possibly in an attempt to match the sort of in-depth knowledge a proper dwarven Loremaster would have brought to the hold.

IE: We didn't get spending money until we had spent so much of our own on task that could be said to be related to our job, that the King went "Holy shit Mat, I'm supposed to cover any reasonable expense, not let you beggar yourself for the good of the Hold."

Of course, I'm not sure he understand that Mat is under the Vow of Poverty, and all the nuances of such, so his ideas might be mistaken.

Pretty sure something like the Vow of Poverty would be neigh on impossible to understand to dwarves, unless framed in the sense of slayers and making up for doing something horrible, or some grand failure. Not what it was, but why such was needed among Umgi.
 
Could our copy be the same one taken from the Sigmarites?
No, because the Sigmarite one was incomplete and this is the original penned by Van Hal's own hand that we own. Passed down through the family by Abelhelm.

And its not like Arkhan would lose a copy after he got it since he'd skedaddle his boney ass back to Nehekhara the second he got it.
 
What option would we care enough about to pick as an action for that turn and be simultaneously concerned about failing and not apply Gambler to it?
I mean, we can only Gamble one thing, and sometimes we want another face. Consider our Sylvania turn; we Night Prowlered to get its OP bullshit, but its OP bullshit is scope-limited, so going into that turn we also bought a ton of extra anti-undead books. Or the turn before that, where we studied the Aethyric Vitae and coined it, but also bought books on the use of the Greatsword to supplement our training actions, which we also didn't want to fail.
 
Kyvinn Wyr? Nothing else that requires us to stockpile favor comes to mind.
god i hope Boney lets us hire the Bright Lord Magister who adapted our work when Kvinn-Wyr season rolls around
Spending college favor to hire Brights for Kvinn-Wyr seems absurd to me when Mathilde can just kill the trolls personally herself, at virtually no risk. Trolls do not have magic weapons, and they do not use fire or other forms of light. They live inside or under a mountain, where it will therefore be dark all the time- nothing to cancel a Substance of Shadow spell. And Mathilde has an absurdly strong weapon which can unquestionably kill trolls.

So basically when taking that mountain, we can:
  1. Do it the conventional way. Send in the troops, with dwarf flame weapons featuring heavily. A lot of line troopers die, and Belegar wonders once again whether it was worth it to spend lives for space he doesn't need and can't use.
  2. Call on the Bright College. Send in the wizards, with flame spells as their primary tool. Every troll is going to take a spell or two, giving ample opportunity for miscasts, and Bright Wizards aren't substantially less vulnerable than line troopers, so there's some risk that they will get careless or surprised and bite it, but if all goes well we'll clear the place with no casualties. Costs a fair bit of College Favor.
  3. Do it ourself. Go in alone, under Substance of Shadow with branulhune as our death-dealer. The trolls literally cannot touch us, so the whole endeavor is less a dangerous engagement and more a tedious chore; there is very little casting and thus risk of miscast and very little chance that a troll will have mutated the specific abilities needed to harm us. By using the Protector we get a substantial amount of Dwarf Favor.
It should be readily apparent that option 1 is to be avoided, and that option 2 is inferior to option 3 in all respects except for Mathilde needing to spend a couple extra action slots. I'm open to arguments otherwise but it feels like the logical conclusion is clear; for the sake of both Karak Eight Peaks and her personal resources, Mathilde should be clearing Kvinn-Wyr personally.
 
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Chapter reactions: Ouch for Belegar. He really needs help... but the Empire has enough troubles that it can't really afford to send much help, and most of the Dwarven help has already been obtained. Anyone got a Rune of Infinite Lava, or something like that could just be set to flood the Skaven tunnels?

The help he needs isn't about money or manpower, though of course those are always welcome. It's more about finding a philosophical answer he can believe in.

Belegar's problem is that he doesn't have a satisfactory explanation for why the conquest of K8P was a good idea or why it should continue. His people didn't need more living space. Yeah, okay there's Karak Azul, but now that line of communication has been opened. And even so, was that alone worth all this blood and risk?

So... what reason is there to expend dwarven lives on trying to conquer the remaining 5 peaks? If it's not about crossing out old grudges, then what is it about?

These are difficult questions to answer, but it's probably long term good that he's asking them.
 
It should be readily apparent that option 1 is to be avoided, and that option 2 is inferior to option 3 in all respects except for Mathilde needing to spend a couple extra action slots. I'm open to arguments otherwise but it feels like the logical conclusion is clear; for the sake of both Karak Eight Peaks and her personal resources, Mathilde should be clearing Kvinn-Wyr personally.
Putting aside the personal risk in #3, we would still need to stockpile college favor for Kyvinn Wyr. We'd just spend it on magical items like Speed of Light, Flame Storm, enchanted guns or any other spells we might need to maximize our damage and minimize our chance of death.
 
Putting aside the personal risk in #3, we would still need to stockpile college favor for Kyvinn Wyr. We'd just spend it on magical items like Speed of Light, Flame Storm, enchanted guns or any other spells we might need to maximize our damage and minimize our chance of death.

Is there a reason to expect that Belegar will attempt a reconquest of Kyvinn Wyr within the next decade? He just this social turn basically confessed to us that he can't think of a rational reason to do so. The dwarves don't need the extra living space and the trolls are basically contained, so what's the point other than to cross out old grudges and put an extra sapphire in his crown?
 
@BoneyM Helping Belegar adress the Edda issue with humans would count as a full on project, right? If we do it as a social action, it just means we tell him about the issue, but if we want to help, we need to actually dole out time for it, yes?
 
Spending college favor to hire Brights for Kvinn-Wyr seems absurd to me when Mathilde can just kill the trolls personally herself, at virtually no risk. Trolls do not have magic weapons, and they do not use fire or other forms of light. They live inside or under a mountain, where it will therefore be dark all the time- nothing to cancel a Substance of Shadow spell. And Mathilde has an absurdly strong weapon which can unquestionably kill trolls.

So basically when taking that mountain, we can:
  1. Do it the conventional way. Send in the troops, with dwarf flame weapons featuring heavily. A lot of line troopers die, and Belegar wonders once again whether it was worth it to spend lives for space he doesn't need and can't use.
  2. Call on the Bright College. Send in the wizards, with flame spells as their primary tool. Every troll is going to take a spell or two, giving ample opportunity for miscasts, and Bright Wizards aren't substantially less vulnerable than line troopers, so there's some risk that they will get careless or surprised and bite it, but if all goes well we'll clear the place with no casualties. Costs a fair bit of College Favor.
  3. Do it ourself. Go in alone, under Substance of Shadow with branulhune as our death-dealer. The trolls literally cannot touch us, so the whole endeavor is less a dangerous engagement and more a tedious chore; there is very little casting and thus risk of miscast and very little chance that a troll will have mutated the specific abilities needed to harm us. By using the Protector we get a substantial amount of Dwarf Favor.
It should be readily apparent that option 1 is to be avoided, and that option 2 is inferior to option 3 in all respects except for Mathilde needing to spend a couple extra action slots. I'm open to arguments otherwise but it feels like the logical conclusion is clear; for the sake of both Karak Eight Peaks and her personal resources, Mathilde should be clearing Kvinn-Wyr personally.
I am like 90% sure we can't kill some one while rendered immaterial with Substance of Shadow because we have to be touching the thing we want to interact with when we cast the spell.
 
Wow it'd be an awkward conversation for King Belegar to explain that there's two to three candidates he'd go to before her when it came to managing humans on the council alone.


I am like 90% sure we can't kill some one while rendered immaterial with Substance of Shadow because we have to be touching the thing we want to interact with when we cast the spell.

If you cast it on yourself you can selectively interact with whatever you please. It's only inanimate objects you've got to have set up right when you cast the spell.
 
Wow it'd be an awkward conversation for King Belegar to explain that there's two to three candidates he'd go to before her when it came to managing humans on the council alone.




If you cast it on yourself you can selectively interact with whatever you please. It's only inanimate objects you've got to have set up right when you cast the spell.
Ah! That makes it far more convenient! Neat!
 
I mean, we can only Gamble one thing, and sometimes we want another face. Consider our Sylvania turn; we Night Prowlered to get its OP bullshit, but its OP bullshit is scope-limited, so going into that turn we also bought a ton of extra anti-undead books. Or the turn before that, where we studied the Aethyric Vitae and coined it, but also bought books on the use of the Greatsword to supplement our training actions, which we also didn't want to fail.
I mean this is far too much effort to invest in debating whether a single percentile is important in the long run. We can with say with absolute certainty that if we do in fact need a book for the upcoming issues at hand we can just spend the favor then. Otherwise it doesn't matter. If circumstance truly arises where we really feel the need to on a spur of the moment buy a book then we can.

But all those examples weren't exactly on short notice. We were eyeballing Gunnars to train with for a while, even spending an action beforehand to open up training with him. And we were honestly considering going back to Sylvania the moment we met Al and had a cogent plan to do so once Belegar let us off the lease. I'll readily admit Gambler isn't always available, but we generally have an idea if it's precommited or if we need books for something. My argument rests on the fact we generally know what we need books for for our projects for a while (hence we tend to buy the mundane ones in advance) and we tend to have a rough idea what projects we want to throw a Gambler at as well. So plan, plan with the expectation our loose AP is going to be invested in the Skaven for a while, plan for the fact either AV or Cartography our too likeliest projects are going to be long term, probably want the Gambler, or both. Worst case- we spend the favor then because we genuinely need it, not because of some arbitrary concern we'll be 'behind schedule' in book purchases that we can't even quantify at this point in time.
 
Wow it'd be an awkward conversation for King Belegar to explain that there's two to three candidates he'd go to before her when it came to managing humans on the council alone.
WASTED

(Boy I am glad we did not vote Project: Undumgi for our proposals last turn)
We can with say with absolute certainty that if we do in fact need a book for the upcoming issues at hand we can just spend the favor then.
Given the resistance to spending favour for a subject we definitely value highly right now, I don't think we can say that. Maximizing efficiency is a siren song.
 
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Is there a reason to expect that Belegar will attempt a reconquest of Kyvinn Wyr within the next decade? He just this social turn basically confessed to us that he can't think of a rational reason to do so. The dwarves don't need the extra living space and the trolls are basically contained, so what's the point other than to cross out old grudges and put an extra sapphire in his crown?
Because the Skaven Civil War isn't going to last forever. We only have a certain window of time before the Horned Rat declares it over, and then we'd be facing a resurgent Mors with Eshin and Skyre allies. We need to keep up our pace.

Plus, if we conquer it ourselves there is a not-insignificant amount of personal glory.
 
For the Undumgi issue it may be better to approach Edda first. Try and help her develop a system for dealing with human issues. She may not even know what the problem is. That way Belegar doesn't have to be involved.
 
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