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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Quest said:
Putting aside the personal risk in #3, we would still need to stockpile college favor for Kyvinn Wyr. We'd just spend it on magical items like Speed of Light, Flame Storm, enchanted guns or any other spells we might need to maximize our damage and minimize our chance of death.
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We'll be finishing our spellbook soon, and between that, her current loadout, and Smoke and Mirrors I'd be willing to bet that Mathilde is survivable enough that she doesn't need such things. I wouldn't say no to Flame Storm on principle but that's more because I approve of Mathilde being able to say "well, this situation calls for enough fire to incinerate a small town" than because Kvinn-Wyr actually needs it.

Briefvoice said:
Is there a reason to expect that Belegar will attempt a reconquest of Kyvinn Wyr within the next decade? He just this social turn basically confessed to us that he can't think of a rational reason to do so. The dwarves don't need the extra living space and the trolls are basically contained, so what's the point other than to cross out old grudges and put an extra sapphire in his crown?
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He likely won't, it's true. There's a fair bit of pressure on him to keep the conquest moving but he's not one to give in to social pressure. Mostly, the reason to move in is that the trolls aren't meaningfully able to contest a concerted push by any of the other Karak Eight Peaks factions, so while they're contained they aren't a shield that we can rely upon- a natural hazard, but not a true barrier. Pretty much anyone (able to get there in the first place) could use the Kvinn-Wyr underway to reach Karag Nar or the Karak Azul underway route without fighting their way through more than a tiny fraction of the troll population.

And at some point at least one of the other factions is likely to get their shit together and exploit this, so it would be nice to move before they do so that we can establish a proper defensive line farther out in the underway and make sure that flank is more secure. But we'll need thousands more people in order to actually move in to Kvinn-Wyr and live there while manning those defenses and making use of the space, so this move is years away minimum since we'll need time for immigration to occur.

So you're right that this is all a far-off hypothetical at the moment and we could be debating whether we need more Winds of Magic books in our library for the next round of snake juice research or Ranald books for a temple construction action or something.
 
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DarkLight140 said:
We'll be finishing our spellbook soon, and between that, her current loadout, and Smoke and Mirrors I'd be willing to bet that Mathilde is survivable enough that she doesn't need such things. I wouldn't say no to Flame Storm on principle but that's more because I approve of Mathilde being able to say "well, this situation calls for enough fire to incinerate a small town" than because Kvinn-Wyr actually needs it.
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She might not need it, but it'd make essentially solo-ing Kvinn-Wyr far easier. Plus, it's something we can keep using in the future even after Kvinn Wyr.
 
Prince Kazrik, Diplomat of Karak Eight Peaks

> Prince Kazrik was very clearly made Diplomat because of his family rather than his ability, but he's yet to fumble in any significant way and might be coming into his own.
< Karak Azul has been isolated since before the birth of Sigmar. To him, humans are a strange and exotic species that he never expected to actually meet. And Wizards are the most exotic of all.

Adult: Having passed the age of 30, this Dwarf is considered an adult and ready to begin studying their trade in earnest.
Apprentice Runesmith: Kazrik spends some of his time learning Runesmith from Thorek Ironbrow. While not quite a breach of tradition, it is unusual for royalty to study the Runes.
Clan Donarkhun: This Dwarf is of the Royal Clan of Karak Azul.
Sharpshooter: Many years of hunting with his father have made Kazrik a crack shot with his crossbow.
Umgongr: This Dwarf has an interest in and an affinity for the manlings.

Man I wonder who should take over the Humans in 8 Peaks.
 
BoneyM said:
Wow it'd be an awkward conversation for King Belegar to explain that there's two to three candidates he'd go to before her when it came to managing humans on the council alone.
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This whole Edda issue is becoming real muddy. Not in "What should be done", but in a "What's going on right now?" kind of way.

Fact 1: Mat now knows and understands the nature of the problem.
Mud 1: The her. Which Her? Edda? Mat? Who is the her Belegar would skip over for managing humans?
Mud 2: Status. Have we told Belegar? Are we going to in a future action? Is that something we need to decide as a social, or is it just part of our role as Court WIzard? What's actually going on? Who else knows what Mat knows about Edda? I'm so confused.
Mud 3: How Even? As in how even are you supposed to solve this without causing a massive diplomatic incident with the woman who wants to be future queen and is a princess of another Hold in her own right? And do any attempts fall under Social with no mechanical benefit, or Project with limited time crunch?
Mud 4: And even then, who do we inform about the efforts? If Belegar doesn't know, do we tell him? Are we obligated to? With an Elector and a spymaster we were expected to spy on others, even other Councilors, but I don't think the same would be so acceptable here. What even is this? Is it Mat betraying Edda's trust, if she reports her struggles? How would dwarves even see the whole thing?

What I'm trying to say is, inter-cultural relations are hard, but it gets even harder when we don't know the lay of the land. Like who the "Her" in the qoute post is referring to, Mat of Edda, or who Mat has told, or by what mechanisms in quest she can tell people.

Feels like being lost in the mists. Isn't Ulgu supposed to be our friend?
 
Briefvoice said:
The help he needs isn't about money or manpower, though of course those are always welcome. It's more about finding a philosophical answer he can believe in.

Belegar's problem is that he doesn't have a satisfactory explanation for why the conquest of K8P was a good idea or why it should continue. His people didn't need more living space. Yeah, okay there's Karak Azul, but now that line of communication has been opened. And even so, was that alone worth all this blood and risk?

So... what reason is there to expend dwarven lives on trying to conquer the remaining 5 peaks? If it's not about crossing out old grudges, then what is it about?

These are difficult questions to answer, but it's probably long term good that he's asking them.
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I've been thinking about it since the update and realized that Belegar's not thinking of the future - that's something that could make him find the purpose for K8P kingdom. He went from "I care what ancestors would want us to do" - which is striking out grudges and if possible retaking K8P the traditional way - to "I care for the safety of my subjects". He'd do well to make one more step to "I care about the world my grandchildren will live in". What Belegar's way should give dwarves is not ancestors' wishes or more safety, it's a way to break a trend. Unconventional tactics keep attrition down; strong allies and trade partners allow to affect more than just immediate surroundings.

If we take Belegar's antistress action, I'd want us to focus on the future. @BoneyM will we be able to vote for the exact approach we take?
 
picklepikkl said:
Given the resistance to spending favour for a subject we definitely value highly right now, I don't think we can say that. Maximizing efficiency is a siren song.
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I mean, you say that it's like a bad thing- to me it just means that anything we have to prioritize in such a short-term emphasis is sufficiently urgent. I find all this deeply ironic because usually I'm the one running headfirst into SV's love for an idealized long term maximization arguing in favor of the value of short term advantages.
 
Neshuakadal said:
For the Undumgi issue it may be better to approach Edda first. Try and help her develop a system for dealing with human issues. She may not even know what the problem is. That way Belegar doesn't have to be involved.
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I think we should leave it be for a turn or two. She's already mining gold with Kazrik and he's incredibly well-suited to help her deal with this issue.
 
Lightwhispers said:
Ouch for Belegar. He really needs help... but the Empire has enough troubles that it can't really afford to send much help, and most of the Dwarven help has already been obtained. Anyone got a Rune of Infinite Lava, or something like that could just be set to flood the Skaven tunnels?
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Briefvoice said:
The help he needs isn't about money or manpower, though of course those are always welcome. It's more about finding a philosophical answer he can believe in.

Belegar's problem is that he doesn't have a satisfactory explanation for why the conquest of K8P was a good idea or why it should continue. His people didn't need more living space. Yeah, okay there's Karak Azul, but now that line of communication has been opened. And even so, was that alone worth all this blood and risk?

So... what reason is there to expend dwarven lives on trying to conquer the remaining 5 peaks? If it's not about crossing out old grudges, then what is it about?

These are difficult questions to answer, but it's probably long term good that he's asking them.
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Well, the way I look at it is that Thorgrim has seemingly given up on the Dawi surviving and the Dawi are low key fine with that. Thorgrim doesn't seem super concerned with the future of the Dwarves as a whole, he just wants them to go out with a bang and as close to even on debts as possible.

For however long he's been High King the remaining Dawi were following his ideal of clearing grudges at the cost of lives. Belegar though, he's striking out some very old grudges and in the process he's using a lot of Dawi lives. All in accordance to the High Kings ideals.

But it's not sitting right with him. Belegar has just reclaimed his birthright. Well, almost half of it. And it should be a massive time of celebration for all Dwarves. But when he went to Thorgrim and reported his success he wasn't really met with cheers and Dawi happy for their future. He was asked specifically which grudges he'd cleared and how many Dawi died to clear them.

It's a differing in ruling. Belegar cares for his kind and wants them to have a future long after he's gone and all the empty space in his new hold just reminds him of how much life has been lost since the Dawi started declining. Thorgrim, once again, wants the Dawi to have a clean slate when they meet their ancestors. And if it costs every Dawi their life doing it? Well, at least the grudges were avenged right?
 
primemountain said:
This whole Edda issue is becoming real muddy. Not in "What should be done", but in a "What's going on right now?" kind of way.

Fact 1: Mat now knows and understands the nature of the problem.
Mud 1: The her. Which Her? Edda? Mat? Who is the her Belegar would skip over for managing humans?
Mud 2: Status. Have we told Belegar? Are we going to in a future action? Is that something we need to decide as a social, or is it just part of our role as Court WIzard? What's actually going on? Who else knows what Mat knows about Edda? I'm so confused.
Mud 3: How Even? As in how even are you supposed to solve this without causing a massive diplomatic incident with the woman who wants to be future queen and is a princess of another Hold in her own right? And do any attempts fall under Social with no mechanical benefit, or Project with limited time crunch?
Mud 4: And even then, who do we inform about the efforts? If Belegar doesn't know, do we tell him? Are we obligated to? With an Elector and a spymaster we were expected to spy on others, even other Councilors, but I don't think the same would be so acceptable here. What even is this? Is it Mat betraying Edda's trust, if she reports her struggles? How would dwarves even see the whole thing?

What I'm trying to say is, inter-cultural relations are hard, but it gets even harder when we don't know the lay of the land. Like who the "Her" in the qoute post is referring to, Mat of Edda, or who Mat has told, or by what mechanisms in quest she can tell people.

Feels like being lost in the mists. Isn't Ulgu supposed to be our friend?
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For the record, the 'her' was Mathilde, but I think you might be succumbing to Protagonist Syndrome.

vsh said:
If we take Belegar's antistress action, I'd want us to focus on the future. @BoneyM will we be able to vote for the exact approach we take?
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Unless it's along the lines of 'I just invented Dwarf Viagra' any options to cure Belegar with the soothing energy of expended AP will continue to be crit-fishing long-shots.
 
Surprisingly, this is also the social turn that made me feel bad for the skaven. Because that conversation between Mathilde and her superior laid out just how much the Horned Rat fucks them over. They can't even have a civil war without worrying that their God is going to step in and put a stop to it to reorder things back to the way it likes. And sure, maybe having a civil war isn't great, but it's also a rather strong suggestion that all the other awful stuff about them can't change because the Horned Rat likes it that way.

The skaven aren't going to change quick even if the Horned Rat disappeared forever, but if there's any hope at all, someone has to kill that rat-god.

You know, just in case the thread had some long term ambitions that weren't reaching quite high enough.
 
MooseHowl said:
Hey now, our mountain is perfectly quarantined! It can't even get up and walk away, not with Gazul's tether holding it in place.
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There's a part of me that giggles at considering it Cat!Mathilde's play run and scratch pole.

ADarkerPorpoise said:
Post-K8P we're either gonna be magical enough to be an elf advisor, GREAT DEEDed enough to join our new BFF at the Emperor's side as the court wizard proper, or we're gonna end up making a giant fursuit and taking over the council of thirteen.
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*imagines cosplaying as the Horned Rat but cuter*

*dies laughing*

That's really good lol.
 
Briefvoice said:
Surprisingly, this is also the social turn that made me feel bad for the skaven. Because that conversation between Mathilde and her superior laid out just how much the Horned Rat fucks them over. They can't even have a civil war without worrying that their God is going to step in and put a stop to it to reorder things back to the way it likes. And sure, maybe having a civil war isn't great, but it's also a rather strong suggestion that all the other awful stuff about them can't change because the Horned Rat likes it that way.

The skaven aren't going to change quick even if the Horned Rat disappeared forever, but if there's any hope at all, someone has to kill that rat-god.

You know, just in case the thread had some long term ambitions that weren't reaching quite high enough.
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To be fair, they are no worse off than the Norscans (who can individually be different, but as a culture will always serve the Dark Gods or the offending tribe will be annihilated).

I mean, it really sucks, you might want to bring your people on a better path, but without the walls of Prag or the armies of the Empire between you and the endless hordes of Chaos Warriors and Daemons up north, that's just not an option.
 
Briefvoice said:
Surprisingly, this is also the social turn that made me feel bad for the skaven. Because that conversation between Mathilde and her superior laid out just how much the Horned Rat fucks them over. They can't even have a civil war without worrying that their God is going to step in and put a stop to it to reorder things back to the way it likes. And sure, maybe having a civil war isn't great, but it's also a rather strong suggestion that all the other awful stuff about them can't change because the Horned Rat likes it that way.

The skaven aren't going to change quick even if the Horned Rat disappeared forever, but if there's any hope at all, someone has to kill that rat-god.

You know, just in case the thread had some long term ambitions that weren't reaching quite high enough.
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Skaven living conditions are awful; overpopulation and malnutrition.

Skaven culture is awful; the caste system, discrimination based on fur color, and the only way to get up on the social hierarchy is to backstab other people (and everyone wants to move up since at worst you are a Skavenslave and even clan rat lives are fairly awful).

And even if some enterprising young Skaven tried to break away from this they will just get smote by the Horned Rat, directly or not.

He is legitimately the worst.
 
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BoneyM said:
Unless it's along the lines of 'I just invented Dwarf Viagra' any options to cure Belegar with the soothing energy of expended AP will continue to be crit-fishing long-shots.
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Huh, would Ancestor Rune of Valaya help with that? It "instills with determination" along with "lending new strength", maybe not only on the battlefield?
HebrideanStarfis said:
I thought the weaponised murder-hell-mountain was Dwarf Viagra.
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You're confusing rage boner with a regular boner.
 
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Lightwhispers said:
Again, I want that desk. Or at least, I want to know how it's made. Very nice description of how it looks, there.
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I actually think he's just Substance of Shadow-ing the papers or something. Or maybe an Enchantment to that effect specific to paperworks.


On that note, can a Substance of Shadow-ed object be layered on to another object also Substance of Shadow-ed? Or is it more like "2d thickness stuff stacked together" kind of thing?
 
DarkLight140 said:
Spending college favor to hire Brights for Kvinn-Wyr seems absurd to me when Mathilde can just kill the trolls personally herself, at virtually no risk. Trolls do not have magic weapons, and they do not use fire or other forms of light. They live inside or under a mountain, where it will therefore be dark all the time- nothing to cancel a Substance of Shadow spell. And Mathilde has an absurdly strong weapon which can unquestionably kill trolls.

So basically when taking that mountain, we can:
  1. Do it the conventional way. Send in the troops, with dwarf flame weapons featuring heavily. A lot of line troopers die, and Belegar wonders once again whether it was worth it to spend lives for space he doesn't need and can't use.
  2. Call on the Bright College. Send in the wizards, with flame spells as their primary tool. Every troll is going to take a spell or two, giving ample opportunity for miscasts, and Bright Wizards aren't substantially less vulnerable than line troopers, so there's some risk that they will get careless or surprised and bite it, but if all goes well we'll clear the place with no casualties. Costs a fair bit of College Favor.
  3. Do it ourself. Go in alone, under Substance of Shadow with branulhune as our death-dealer. The trolls literally cannot touch us, so the whole endeavor is less a dangerous engagement and more a tedious chore; there is very little casting and thus risk of miscast and very little chance that a troll will have mutated the specific abilities needed to harm us. By using the Protector we get a substantial amount of Dwarf Favor.
It should be readily apparent that option 1 is to be avoided, and that option 2 is inferior to option 3 in all respects except for Mathilde needing to spend a couple extra action slots. I'm open to arguments otherwise but it feels like the logical conclusion is clear; for the sake of both Karak Eight Peaks and her personal resources, Mathilde should be clearing Kvinn-Wyr personally.
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I don't know Darklight. Don't you feel bad about all the Slayers that would have to continue with the horror of an existence disappointing their ancestor gods without such a ready quantity of trolls if we go solo the mountain?

They'd have come all the way here from Slayer Keep for nothing and have to go home in disgrace, having completely failed to die.
 
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