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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Quest said:
He also explicitly compared it to the mindset gained by other winds and gave the college's solution to this. If you gained a different understanding, then you are wrong.

He also has a different quote which I have also brought up in the last few pages that explocitly assures us that there will be no corruption, metaphysical or otherwise. If you can get any WOG at all that directly says that Dhar will drive Mathilde mad while she's wearing the belt, then your concerns would be more understandable.

But when we have this and the assurance that "we can fling dhar, hug a daemon and juggle warpstone" while having no effect on our soul then you are just spreading misinformation.
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My counter to the wind comparison is that Dhar is inherently corrosive and destructive in a way that the Winds simply aren't. I know the quote your using.

BoneyM said:
The mindset to channel Dhar takes you to a dark place. But so does the mindset to channel Shyish. The mindset to channel Aqshy gives you temper problems. The mindset to channel Ulgu gives you a flexible view of the truth and a hazy grasp of boundaries.

If Mathilde spends all her time channelling Dhar for a week, that'll put her in a messed-up headspace, just like if you spent a week researching serial killers or something. The Colleges teach Wizards how to ground their sense of self in companionship and small joys, the same way they teach them to ground rogue magic in copper and iron.
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And I have read it multiple times and my reading of that comparison is establishing the fact that to use Dhar you have to enter a special mindset, like you do to to use the winds. Then by my reading he goes on to explain what that mindset actually is. Which is equated to researching serial killers for a week. The final line is giving a means to treat that exposure and/or mitigate its initial effects.

So yes, she could use it for a while and then treat it. Does that give her actual immunity? No, she's still mentally affected by it, which is the point I'm pushing. Unlike her body or soul, willingly picking it up is a choice on her part and part of that choice requires entering the Dhar's mindset and like I think picklepikki said that actually doesn't really have much to do with Dhar at all.

She is also immune to juggling warpstone, hugging a demon and flinging dhar, and that's immunity to corrupting her soul. From my reading Boney is operating on the idea that soul and mind are distinct based on his description from Gunnars proving to Kragg and Belegar that Mathilde was still Mathilde.

So I guess in a respect you are correct; body and soul we're entirely immune, but the belt doesn't protect us from the consequences of needing to take on a cruel/dark place mindset in order to actually start picking it up and the "flinging Dhar" that comes after is what we're immune to. What I am pushing is my understanding, and like... cool, you think I'm spreading misinformation. I'm not and I think my writing so far establishes that and I'll leave this at that.

Alratan said:
Your justification was that Mathilde's colleagues could be put off until later. My response was that later potentially never comes because of the compounding nature of those votes, and so that logic has

In any case, I think the justification for engaging with Karak Eight Peaks as a setting should pretty much be self-evident. Mathilde is putting down physical infrastructure roots, but it doesn't really feel like she's putting down social ones. Her social connections seem to still entirely be with characters from the Empire. Karak Eight Peaks is going to be a melting pot of people from all countries and many species, and so would be a really interesting place to explore, but we're not doing that, and the continued focus on the Empire and people there means it feels that we're less and less likely to, as there's little or no emotional investment being made there.
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That is a reason. Its not one I agree with, since I feel like she actually has a pretty serious connection with Belegar over the updates and with her fellow wizards. Johann, Maximillian, Adela, Hubert, Gretel all enter my thoughts pretty regularly and they've played what I consider as important roles in the most recent updates.

I guess to frame it like so: I'm voting for Kragg the Grim, Edda and Kazrik, Roswita (Book version), and Heidi. This probably aligns pretty close to what you'd like to see.

But the current winner is: Empress 'Heidi', Kragg the Grim, Roswita (Book version), Roswita (Battle Wizards), and Karak Kadrin.

Which of these do you think a voter should drop to replace with someone else in the Karak?
 
@BoneyM
Shouldn't Kragg the Grim be in the Dramatis Personae? We've interacted more than enough with him, and nobody can say he's not an Important Character in this quest.

EDIT: Also, Regimand.
 
TempestK said:
So, I think I may have puzzled out an explanation for "Heidi" posing as Gabriella for years and still being younger than us. Essentially? She didn't. Gabi gets dusted; a Ranauldian priestess takes advantage of the confusion to take her place and fake it till she makes it. Time passes, she starts hitting the point that she can no longer keep up the charade through makeup and clothing, cue her daughter stepping into the position, and shortly after Mathilde happens.
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Perhaps, though there are undoubtedly spells that would help. We know one!
BoneyM said:
K / Mutable Visage: You can make a target you are touching (or yourself) noticeably more or less attractive for several hours.
- This effect is relatively minor. Think make-up, not special effects.
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A specialised youth-ifying, longer lasting version?
Plus Jades can definitely help with the whole conception-mandate important to a remarried Emperor.

There are certainly things that require explanation, but those explanations can be found.

Omegahugger said:
Let's tell our lord how his daughter is doing, shall we?
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Belegar is our Lord, now. :V
 
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Captain Spatula said:
So would it be possible to have a secretive meeting with the Grey order boss and give him the box the Liber Mortis came in, with the book inside now that we've read it, and say it was with that Necrarch vampire?

If there'd be a somewhat believable excuse as to why we have this very dangerous book it'd be because we just destroyed a school of necromancy. A vampire from that particular bloodline having that book? It isn't so out there that it wouldn't be difficult to believe.
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If Pyramidhead had the book, he'd have been far more dangerous than he actually was and wouldn't have bothered waiting around for the Von Carstein's to vanish before making his play. Plus, we've already been told that we can deliver the book untraceably if we want to hand it over.
 
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Jyn Ryvia said:
on one hand, this is a CK2 quest, so having a next-gen ready wouldn't hurt. (heir or apprentice.)

and having a minion that we can just dump a long-distance project on would be great.

on the other hand: we don't know all the spells below battle magic, it would be embarrassing.
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That one isveasily solved and I believe we intended to do that anyway. Besides, it would only be embarassing if we didn't know any some spells below moderately complicated - I don't think apprentices get taught those fiendish spells.
 
[X] Kragg the Grim, who you could likely convince to start gloating.
[X] Empress 'Heidi', to see if you can snatch a private moment to speak honestly with her.
[X] Sir Ruprecht Wulfhart, as the new home of the Winter Wolves takes shape.
[X] Anton, to see how his firearm factory is going.
[X] Wilhelmina, to see how she's going when she's not a terrifying financial juggernaut.
[X] Try to find Kasmir in Sylvania.
[X] Barak Varr, to watch the progress of the canal.

[X] Loremaster: Expert on weaving

[X] On display in the Duckling Club.
 
BungieONI said:
That is a reason. Its not one I agree with, since I feel like she actually has a pretty serious connection with Belegar over the updates and with her fellow wizards. Johann, Maximillian, Adela, Hubert, Gretel all enter my thoughts pretty regularly and they've played what I consider as important roles in the most recent updates.
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All the other wizards are also other characters from the Empire, specifically they're even humans as well. Spending time with them is no more exploring the diversity of cultures and species that will be meeting and developing in Karak Eight Peaks than doing so with Anton or Roswita is. Students from the sister institutions to the one she was educated in are not the kind of novelty I'm talking about here.
 
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I'm genuinely a little surprised that more people aren't interested in seeing what's going on with the canal. Or to look at a new (sort of) Hold in our experience and catch up with Ulthar.
 
[X] Try to find Kasmir in Sylvania.
[X] Kragg the Grim, who you could likely convince to start gloating.
[X] Karak Kadrin, presenting them with the skull of an old enemy (but not to keep).
[X] Princess Edda, to pry for details about her illicit romance with Prince Kazrik.
[X] Empress 'Heidi', to see if you can snatch a private moment to speak honestly with her.
[X] Karak Hirn, to satisfy your curiousity about Prince Ulthar.
[X] The Amber College, to see how your donation of Lustrian eggs is going.
 
Rafin said:
I had to take a break from reading to say... WHAT THE ACTUAL FLYING FUCK! THE CONSPIRACY IS ALIVE! IT NEVER STOPPED! WE ARE STILL ITS PAWN! AND EVERYTHING IS STILL ACCORDING TO PLAN! WE WERE NOT CHOSEN BECAUSE WE HAPPENED TO BE REGIMAND'S APPRENTICE, BUT BECAUSE OF OUR RELIGION! ALL OF THIS WAS PLANNED! ALL OF IT!

X X
X X
X
X X
X X


...ahem. So our loyalties are back to being clearly divided again. Probably more so than ever before in this quest.
So... Is Regimand a part of this? Did the Empress actually deserve to die? So many questions.

BoneyM you magnificent bastard.
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This is a bad post, for us. It is bad because if it is the conspiracy then Empresses have already died trying to stop it, and more may need to follow. It's pretty much the one thing I think I may end up voting to leave him for.

Divided Loyalties indeed.
 
[X] Karak Kadrin, presenting them with the skull of an old enemy (but not to keep).
[X] Try to find Kasmir in Sylvania.
[X] The best reading chair ever.

Not too fond of the Roswita options (doesn't mean I dislike the character, but I don't really care for the book), otherwise I'm fine with the winning options. I kind of want to find Kasmir, he got lost deep in Sylvania after all.

[X] Write in: Try to contact Abelhelm van Hal. You just want to talk to him one last time...

Isn't that the only reason we read the book? It's only unsafe if we do it too oten
 
I do wonder what will happen now that the Cult of Ranald has gotten into the highest court.

Like, Ranald isn't a bad god, but he is not really a good one either. (despite our own loyalties)

He is the better side of neutral most of the time. but his worshipers understand that his favour is whimsical and prone to turning at a bad time.

I'm not saying it is a bad thing he is getting more powerful, or a good thing.

just that its a THING
 
Godwinson said:
I specifically want to cultivate Roswita as an ally within the Empire, to make it so that rather than fear and mistrust, she comes to trust Mathilde specifically, and Imperial Mages as an institution. I want to do this because it spits in the eye of the oh-so-prevalent fear of mages in the Empire, by taking a Witch Hunter who does view mages as the enemy and changing her mind. I want Roswita to look back at her abrupt dismissal of Mathilde regret it not just as a strategic mistake, but also as a personal mistake.
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I have to admit that the concept of aggressively befriending someone out of spite so as to engender regret that they weren't immediately your friend the first time around so that you can then take that regret and rub their faces in it is a novel tangle of emotions and drives the likes of which I haven't seen much of before

Godwinson said:
Though you have to admit that it's probably one of the kinder forms spite could take.
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There is that I suppose
 
BungieONI said:
And I have read it multiple times and my reading of that comparison is establishing the fact that to use Dhar you have to enter a special mindset, like you do to to use the winds. Then by my reading he goes on to explain what that mindset actually is. Which is equated to researching serial killers for a week. The final line is giving a means to treat that exposure and/or mitigate its initial effects.

So yes, she could use it for a while and then treat it. Does that give her actual immunity? No, she's still mentally affected by it, which is the point I'm pushing. Unlike her body or soul, willingly picking it up is a choice on her part and part of that choice requires entering the Dhar's mindset and like I think picklepikki said that actually doesn't really have much to do with Dhar at all.

She is also immune to juggling warpstone, hugging a demon and flinging dhar, and that's immunity to corrupting her soul. From my reading Boney is operating on the idea that soul and mind are distinct based on his description from Gunnars proving to Kragg and Belegar that Mathilde was still Mathilde.

So I guess in a respect you are correct; body and soul we're entirely immune, but the belt doesn't protect us from the consequences of needing to take on a cruel/dark place mindset in order to actually start picking it up and the "flinging Dhar" that comes after is what we're immune to. What I am pushing is my understanding, and like... cool, you think I'm spreading misinformation. I'm not and I think my writing so far establishes that and I'll leave this at that.
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I'm pretty sure I remember how this discussion usually goes. Somebody notes that indirect casting is not channeling dhar, some people agree, some people don't, than we ask Boney and they answer "try and find out".

At least it went this way the last time.
 
chocolote12 said:
This is a bad post, for us. It is bad because if it is the conspiracy then Empresses have already died trying to stop it, and more may need to follow. It's pretty much the one thing I think I may end up voting to leave him for.
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Yeah, if the previous Empress was actually an innocent and she and her unborn child were murdered to put 'Heidi' next to the throne things could be bad.

Particularly if Mathilde giving the list to Reginald actually just caused the Conspiracy to accelerate their plans or throw the dice on taking a big risk because being so close to being exposed spooked them into precipitous action, and Reginald threw Mathilde an unrelated Cult as a distraction...
 
Kornet said:
I'm pretty sure I remember how this discussion usually goes. Somebody notes that indirect casting is not channeling dhar, some people agree, some people don't, than we ask Boney and they answer "try and find out".

At least it went this way the last time.
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...for some reason, I got an alert saying you quoted me from this post. :confused:
 
Alratan said:
Yeah, if the previous Empress was actually an innocent and she and her unborn child were murdered to put 'Heidi' next to the throne things could be bad.

Particularly if Mathilde giving the list to Reginald actually just caused the Conspiracy to accelerate their plans or throw the dice on taking a big risk because being so close to being exposed spooked them into precipitous action, and Reginald threw Mathilde an unrelated Cult as a distraction...
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That sounds remarkably like a bait-and-switch that would have the entire readership erupting in flames and salt. I don't see Boney doing anything like that. So let's put the conspiracy theories away, m'kay?
 
Alratan said:
All the other wizards are also other characters, specifically even humans from the Empire. Spending time with them is no more exploring the diversity of cultures and species that will be meeting and developing in Karak Eight Peaks than doing so with Anton or Roswita is.
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So you mean the dwarves and halflings? Because they're definitely a part of Karak Eight Peaks now. Excluding them from the K8P culture is kinda weird.

And well *gestures at my vote* I'm certainly voting for the dwarves.

Like, look, I'm trying to help you out here by getting you to explain or put out an argument for why people like Edda or Kazrik or Gotri or Belegar or Dreng or Hloudwica are better options than the current winners instead of what reads as not that. I'm sympathetic to the issue because I to actually care about her staying the course because holy cow does that get difficult in some quests and I'm trying to encourage it more in what quests I play in.

Your concern is actually valid, but to get people to accept that you need to argue for it.
 
[X] Anton, to see how his firearm factory is going.
[X] Try to find Kasmir in Sylvania.
[X] Karak Kadrin, presenting them with the skull of an old enemy (but not to keep).
[X] Roswita, as she tries to wrap her head around the influx of Battle Wizards.
[X] Roswita, to present her with a copy of the book her late father contributed to.
[X] Empress 'Heidi', to see if you can snatch a private moment to speak honestly with her.
These are the ones I'd like to see.

[X] Check in on the Gong Farmers and the Niter Factory.
[X] Check in on your fief in Stirland.
Sure, I'll throw a couple of pity votes this way.

[X] Store away for some future purpose.
-[X] To put over the entrance of the future Eight Peaks Mages College.
This is objectively the best possible use of a Dragon Skull. Nothing else really compares.
 
TempestK said:
That sounds remarkably like a bait-and-switch that would have the entire chat erupting in flames and salt. I don't see Boney doing anything like that. So let's put the conspiracy theories away, m'kay?
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It's literally theories about the Conspiracy, they're all like this by default.

But Ranald is a civilized god, not a paragon. Something being especially dark doesn't leave it out of the range of possibility for him.
 
NSMS said:
...for some reason, I got an alert saying you quoted me from this post. :confused:
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Because initially I did. I have a habit of hitting the reply button, start answering to someone's post, starting to dislike the thing I am writing and never finishing it.

And then I forget to remove the unfinished draft when I reply to someone else and then frantically edit-out the remains of the unfinished draft.
 
Kornet said:
I'm pretty sure I remember how this discussion usually goes. Somebody notes that indirect casting is not channeling dhar, some people agree, some people don't, than we ask Boney and they answer "try and find out".

At least it went this way the last time.
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Yea but the people who note that using Wind tongs to manipulate dhar isn't channelling dhar are completely correct. Channelling involves pushing and pulling the wind through your soul. The mindset to use the Tongs is the Ulgu mind set if you're using Ulgu tongs. The dhar exposure from ambient dhar is what corrupts, and the last WoG from BoneyM is whilst not completely conclusive good enough for my purposes. It's the Dhar exposure that fucked up Fredrick, not the fact that he used Shyish tongs. With Kraggs belt we don't have that risk at all.

That's still not a reason to use necromancy though, it is a reason to see if we can pull off Ulgu tongs with other winds.

@BoneyM

Will future turns have options for trying to use Ulgu tongs to learn manipulate other mono-winds with out creating dhar?
 
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