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As I said above, he literally said the plan I posted would work as written.
I think I need to correct You, then.

Boney said that plan will work as written quoting Your post:
[X] Mathilde infiltrates into position to be down sun of the Citadel and arranges for the dwarves to attack at the local dawn, when the sun becomes visible above the eastern peaks. She then times the conclusion of a ritual casting of Burning Shadows to complete moments after the sun is visible and the Citadel's shadow is cast.
It was Your own post.

I do not know how did You misunderstood it as normal casting of a spell, when You Yourself specified ritual casting and got Boney to confirm it.

So Burning Shadows plan have ritual casting of a spell after long night spent of assasination. When Mathilde will be exhausted.
 
Most of the plans would work, the vote is about managing risks and costs.

I actually disagree with that. depending on the construction of grobi-town, if it's not as incredibly flammable as people assert, then it could just be impossible. Even if it is made entirely of wood that could well be the case, and if not, if it has a substantial amount of adobe construction, it could simpyl be flat impossible.

The last draft of the commando plan also has issues with focusing on part of the objective (blocking enemies entering the Citadel) and not doing as much to about the other risk which is greenskins engaging our soldiers outside from behind or the flank as they try to storm the Citadel.

It was Your own post.

I do not know how did You misunderstood it as normal casting of a spell, when You Yourself specified ritual casting and got Boney to confirm it.

So Burning Shadows plan have ritual casting of a spell after long night spent of assasination. When Mathilde will be exhausted.

I think I'd changed by that point to making the ritual casting optional in the full plan, but apologies, if he posted before that.

Also, Mathilde would not be exhausted. Please read what the plan says before asserting such things. There's a reason I specify a full day of sleep beforehand. Mathidle has a tireless shadowsteed to carry her around as well

BoneyM also said this, with no mention of rituals:

...I may regret saying this.

But you could Burning Shadows the Citadel. It wouldn't hit those inside, but it would hit anyone approaching it from the caldera until shortly before midday. It would mean delaying the battle until tomorrow morning.

You would need to be physically touching either the Citadel or the shadow it is casting for the entire time you want to maintain the effect.

Cast the spell on the shadow the Citadel is casting into the caldera.

If it was as hard as you think, I don't think he'd have raised it before he saw my post.
 
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How would the Rangers or anyone who isn't a Grey Wizard reach the town in the caldera?

From what I understand there's a steep cliff with the only way past it is either the Citadel or the underway
 
Edit, rereading. BoneyM didn't actually quote my plan and say that would work as written. He quoted something else:
The sun rises in the east, and the Caldera is west of the Citadel. That means that at dawn and for some times into the morning the Citadel will cast a long shadow over the Caldera. We also know that Burning Shadows can be cast on the shadows of structures, and the Citadel is a structure the dwarves built above ground, not a natural terrain feature.
I completely misread that the first time. My apologies. Yes, that will work as written.

It was the initial description of the concept of the plan that he said would work, not the plan.

How would the Rangers or anyone who isn't a Grey Wizard reach the town in the caldera?

From what I understand there's a steep cliff with the only way past it is either the Citadel or the underway

They have gyrocopter-packs a well as flamethrowers?
 
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While I will concede that BoneyM has said that Burning Shadow will work as written, I personally feel like there are several issues with the plan.
[X] Plan Burning Shadows
-[X] Spend a night before the assault hunting down and assassinating any surviving shamans. Make sure to sleep the day before.
-[X] Mathilde infiltrates into position to be down sun of the Citadel and arranges for the dwarves to attack at the local dawn, when the sun becomes visible above the eastern peaks. She then times the conclusion of a casting of Burning Shadows to complete moments after the sun is visible and the Citadel's shadow is cast. Ritual cast if Mathilde is confident she can do so reliably.
-[X] Scatter Black Lotus poisoned caltrops on the path to delay greenskins and get them stuck in the Burning Shadow longer.
-[X] Organise to have indirect fire of dwarven catapults firing whatever the engineers think will cause the most havoc arcing over the Citadel into Grobi down timed to a few moment after the Burning Shadows is cast.

Going down the list of issues I have:
  1. The plan requires delaying the attack, which I feel would be a mistake as not only does it give the Greenskins more time to organize and fortify but it also means that potentially more Greenskins could arrive to reinforce the ones we are already going to have to fight. Additionally the longer we give them then the more likely we have of their leaders solidifying their control with the worst case scenario being the Citadel Greenskins managing to assert their control over the town greenskins.
  2. The plan calls for Mathilde to spend the night hunting down and assassinating Greenskin spellcasters. That is by no means an easy task as it requires us to spend an extended time moving through a Greenskin town and the Greenskins will know we are there at some point as assassinating any spellcasters will likely be noticed, even assuming we can find any. That is not even getting into the fact that the Spellcasters likely have their own cronies acting as guards making assassination all the more difficult.
  3. If bringing a decent amount of accelerant is an issue then carrying enough Caltrops to block the path would certainly be a problem as well. Not to mention the stealth challenge of spreading them without being noticed and the risk that they will be noticed by the enemy.
  4. Then the biggest issue is the Burning Shadow cast, which we would be doing after spending the entire night running around the Greenskin camp, that is the crux of this entire plan. While I will concede that using it in such a way is possible, although I personally think that it will require a roll that could potentially have a high DC, the ritual casting of it would require us to be touching the Citadel's shadow which means being close to the Citadel for the entire time we are maintaining it. Now while I trust Mathilde's stealth skill, the prospect of doing this for an extended period of time seems like a risk to me.
 
While I will concede that BoneyM has said that Burning Shadow will work as written, I personally feel like there are several issues with the plan.


Going down the list of issues I have:
  1. The plan requires delaying the attack, which I feel would be a mistake as not only does it give the Greenskins more time to organize and fortify but it also means that potentially more Greenskins could arrive to reinforce the ones we are already going to have to fight. Additionally the longer we give them then the more likely we have of their leaders solidifying their control with the worst case scenario being the Citadel Greenskins managing to assert their control over the town greenskins.
  2. The plan calls for Mathilde to spend the night hunting down and assassinating Greenskin spellcasters. That is by no means an easy task as it requires us to spend an extended time moving through a Greenskin town and the Greenskins will know we are there at some point as assassinating any spellcasters will likely be noticed, even assuming we can find any. That is not even getting into the fact that the Spellcasters likely have their own cronies acting as guards making assassination all the more difficult.
  3. If bringing a decent amount of accelerant is an issue then carrying enough Caltrops to block the path would certainly be a problem as well. Not to mention the stealth challenge of spreading them without being noticed and the risk that they will be noticed by the enemy.
  4. Then the biggest issue is the Burning Shadow cast, which we would be doing after spending the entire night running around the Greenskin camp, that is the crux of this entire plan. While I will concede that using it in such a way is possible, although I personally think that it will require a roll that could potentially have a high DC, the ritual casting of it would require us to be touching the Citadel's shadow which means being close to the Citadel for the entire time we are maintaining it. Now while I trust Mathilde's stealth skill, the prospect of doing this for an extended period of time seems like a risk to me.

1) I believe the Citadel is currently hostile to the greenskins in the town. That won't change in the 12-15 hours I propose we wait. I also believe that Belegar is incorrect that a bunch of human men with no sleep and screwed up sleep patterns will fight at full strength.

2) Greenskins don't like to live anywhere near their shamans, as they don't like randomly exploding anymore than anyone else. As a result shamans have to set up shop on the outside edge of greenskin settlements. That means they will be very easy to assassinate, as there will be very few witnesses, and as a Grey Wizard there should be no alert if she murders them in the night. Theremay also not be any shamans left

3) The Caltrops are a nice to have she only needs a few as a last ditch alert or delay.

4) I don't believe we need to ritually cast the spell. I believe that the normal use of the spell would be sufficient. The Citadel's shadow is still a shadow so it falls into the standard spell description, which Mathilde can cast without a roll. Mathilde will also be standing at the base of the citadel, out of the line of sight of both the town and the walls of the Citadel because of the geometry so it's very hard to shoot her. For a decent length of time, she can probably also benefit from Substance of Shadow, as she'll be in deep shadow although that's unnecessary as to reach her would require running through hundreds of meters of Burning Shadow, even seeing her would probably require that from most angles.
 
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I think I'd changed by that point to making the ritual casting optional in the full plan, but apologies, if he posted before that.

Also, Mathilde would not be exhausted. Please read what the plan says before asserting such things. There's a reason I specify a full day of sleep beforehand. Mathidle has a tireless shadowsteed to carry her around as well

BoneyM also said this, with no mention of rituals:
As far as I can see, he just confirmed that ritual casting will work, which left implication that any plan that uses Burning Shadows in that way is ritual casting. It is also reasonable. Such huge effect would be risky be its very nature.

As for tired - after night spent on sneaking around through enemy territory and assasinating shamans one gets tired. At very least mentally tired due to stress, casting and sheer time required. And being mentally exhausted is what counts during casting. It's just begging for miscast, and with ritual magic miscasts are deadly. We just lectured Panoramia about it.

There are three additional issues:
- we need to delay attack specifically so Mathilde can use her magic.
- I would not rate our chances for quite assasination of shamans high. Sure we will likely be able to do it. But do it undetected and without kicking greenskin anthill? It's much less certain.
- Mathilde is point of failure of a plan. If she is delayed with shamans or needs to run, it falls apart. If she alerts greenskins before time it falls apart. If she rolls badly on ritual it falls apart. It's better to use magic, but not rely on it entirely.


Edit: ninja'd.
 
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The Burning Shadows spell in the Warhammer RPG naturally has a limited range. I'd want explicit QM confirmation before assuming that we could fully use an enormous shadow to channel the spell without ritual casting.
 
Honestly, we need more information.

What is the general state of greenskin buildings, what sort of materials do we have for burning, do we definitively need a ritual cast for the Burning Shadows, etc.
 
This is a real disappointment. Perhaps the best opportunity we'll ever have to make this spell great and we're going to throw it away, and probably get a bunch of Rangers killed for literally nothing.

Everything the fire plan can do this plan:

[] Have the catapults indirect fire incendiaries into Grobit-Town, focused on the region immediately around the avenue.

Would do significantly better at significantly lower risk. Worse, that plan is effectively part of the Burnign Shadows plan.


As far as I can see, he just confirmed that ritual casting will work, which left implication that any plan that uses Burning Shadows in that way is ritual casting. It is also reasonable. Such huge effect would be risky be its very nature.

As for tired - after night spent on sneaking around through enemy territory and assasinating shamans one gets tired. At very least mentally tired due to stress, casting and sheer time required. And being mentally exhausted is what counts during casting. It's just begging for miscast, and with ritual magic miscasts are deadly. We just lectured Panoramia about it.

There are three additional issues:
- we need to delay attack specifically so Mathilde can use her magic.
- I would not rate our chances for quite assasination of shamans high. Sure we will likely be able to do it. But do it undetected and without kicking greenskin anthill? It's much less certain.
- Mathilde is point of failure of a plan. If she is delayed with shamans or needs to run, it falls apart. If she alerts greenskins before time it falls apart. If she rolls badly on ritual it falls apart. It's better to use magic, but not rely on it entirely.Edit: ninja's.

No, he didn't quote the bit about ritual magic, and he also independentl suggested the idea before he read my suggestion, without saying a word about ritual magic.

If BoneyM returns and confirms that a normal spell would work would that actually change anything for you?

Have you read what I've previously said several times about why assassinating greenskin shamans would work, or do I need to repeat it?

The fire plan is one giant point of failure by assuming that this is a medieval human city and so will burn like one, despite it being of completely different construction which we've no reason to expect will burn the same. It also assumes that the Rangers or Mathilde won't get caught.

Plan Burning Shadows also has the catapults as a backup which will do everything the fire plan will if the fire plan is possible. That's why this is infuriating. It seems you're not actually reading the plan you're criticising.

The Burning Shadows spell in the Warhammer RPG naturally has a limited range. I'd want explicit QM confirmation before assuming that we could fully use an enormous shadow to channel the spell without ritual casting.

For something like literally the tenth time, we've had explicit confirmation. I quoted it literally nine posts above yours.
 
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The last draft of the commando plan also has issues with focusing on part of the objective (blocking enemies entering the Citadel) and not doing as much to about the other risk which is greenskins engaging our soldiers outside from behind or the flank as they try to storm the Citadel.

We're at the top of a cliff I think, the citadel is how people get out of the caldera. Being attacked from behind is absurdly unlikely as we control the valley, being flanked would require that the orcs climb a cliff, or at least an extremely steep incline, and then the cavalry can deal with them.

Also we're not voting for the campaign plan, just Mathilde's contribution to the planning session.

I actually disagree with that. depending on the construction of grobi-town, if it's not as incredibly flammable as people assert, then it could just be impossible. Even if it is made entirely of wood that could well be the case, and if not, if it has a substantial amount of adobe construction, it could simpyl be flat impossible.
If we try and set fire to grobi-town there'll be a roll to see if we succeed, if we ritual cast burning shadow there'll be a different roll. I doubt that either is impossible.
 
Much as I am an advocate of simpler plans, the fire plan just doesn't seem viable with the number of individuals on hand and the sheer scale, nevermind whether they'll even burn. Burning Shadows at least is proven viable.

Heck, Boney outright told us its possible to launch incendiaries in with catapults.
 
Can we just wait for WOG on the casting and the construction and flammability of orcish abodes? Because right now that's what this argument is about and neither of you agree, so can you please just wait?
 
2) Greenskins don't like to live anywhere near their shamans, as they don't like randomly exploding anymore than anyone else. As a result shamans have to set up shop on the outside edge of greenskin settlements. That means they will be very easy to assassinate, as there will be very few witnesses, and as a Grey Wizard there should be no alert if she murders them in the night. Theremay also not be any shamans left
I think you are underestimating the shamans' ability to force their way into a comfy spot of power via their magic. I also think that the shamans have at least some protection against assassins or the Skaven would win every magic fight with the greenskins ever, which does not appear to be the case.
 
No, he didn't quote the bit about ritual magic, and he also independentl suggested the idea before he read my suggestion, without saying a word about ritual magic.

If BoneyM returns and confirms that a normal spell would work would that actually change anything for you?

Have you read what I've previously said several times about why assassinating greenskin shamans would work, or do I need to repeat it?

The fire plan is one giant point of failure by assuming that this is a medieval human city and so will burn like one, despite it being of completely different construction which we've no reason to expect will burn the same.
If Boney return and confirms than normal spell would suffice I would be less opposed to the plan. It would still not solve issues related to Mathilde not alerting greenskins and required delay of attack, though. Those two remaining issues would still make me want to choose another option.

Using magic is reasonable. Relying on it entirely is not, as Magic is fickle mistress.
 
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