True I was mostly just quoting for the full list since I thought it was most important. I didn't think it was important, my mistake.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
I... don't understand. What would we do with the black lotus? Use it as a material component?
- Location
- Earth
[x] Plan Light Everything On Fire And Kill Things
notanautomaton
I've got 99 quests, I've finished one
It's no big deal, I just wanted to point it out.
- Location
- The Star Kingdom of Manticore
Is getting more PR a concern for you? It is not a concern for me so that argument holds no weight to me.
Again you are assuming the burning shadows will cover the entire shadow when other sources say it is very limited in range. Are you proposing ritual casting to increase the length of the burning shadow? If so we go back to the problems already raised while ritual casting while tired from a night of assassinations.
If you are counting on Kragg to smote shamans with lighting why not ask Kragg to cover the entrance to the caldera with lava. Fast easy and meets all the goals without risking anyone or anything.
How do you purpose for the greenskins of skaven to learn about why the shadows are burning them? Wouldn't they just assume that Kragg is doing more things with his runecraft? I don't think it would make them any more afraid then they already are.
Last edited:
1) My plan with the catapults probably has more fire than rangers starting fires. You can get more a lot incendiaries into one shot with a catapult than a couple of rangers could carry. The fact that my backup plan should be expected to be more effective than your primary plan should speak volumes.
2) You're assuming a ritual is required. I'm free to assume it's not.
3) Greenskins are rowdy. That means they do things slowly because they're disorganised. They do not, as a rule, unless they roll a natural 100, instantly, or indeed, need instantly reform their hierarchies seamlessly to compensate for disruption or deaths. They're rather famous for that in fact.
4) Your spell also assumes that Mathilde uses spells to block the entrance. Your plans just requires more spells and more risk as she infiltrate a greenskin settlements and sets multiple fires. My plan has a spell being cast, with a backup/supplementatry option of catapults
5) Once again, no ritual unless Mathidle decides based on IC knowledge that it's a superior option to casting the base plan and hanging around.
You have been treating assumptions as fact all through your argument for the fire plan. Starting with assuming that Grobi Town is a tinder box.
- Location
- United States of America
Yes, Burning Shadows originally talked about how Black Lotus is used as a material component. We haven't used Black Lotus to cast it, which makes me think that the material component is used as a crutch, a way to make casting it and learning it easier. If that is the case, then we have an opportunity to make casting Burning shadows at this scale easier.
Here is the relevant quote.
notanautomaton
I've got 99 quests, I've finished one
PR is always a concern for wizards; that's the reason that Journeymen are required to journey. The more people see Wizards as being assets or people rather than weird monsters, the less magical children get burned at the stake.
- Location
- The Star Kingdom of Manticore
But does Mathilde need more PR? She has already gotten a massive amount of good will here. I don't think showing off the fact that wizards could boil your skin off will make the human soldiers more comfortable with us.
I don't care who they blame, but I care about is that they fear the Expedition even more.
Look back to where Mathilde learned this spell. The first day she cast it she could make it reach two hundred yards! Look at BurneyM's clarifications since then about structures. Look at his replies after this update. The spell does not work here anything like it does in the roleplaying game.
This is like a zombie argument. How many times does it need to be refuted
She's on their side. That's always more comforting than the other option.
Last edited:
- Location
- some computer lab
Okay, but the other leading plan has these risks
- mathilde or any of the rangers are detected in camp and need to run in another direction. Falls apart by alerting the greenskins, potentially causing them to flee to the citadel
-Mathilde rolls badly on setting fires and is incapacitated due to smoke inhalation. Increased dwarven casualties as opposed to an artillery bombardment. Plus Mathilde likely dies.
- Shaman or anyone else who happens to be around detect her, raises alarm too soon and speed things up. Greenskins with shaman support go to the citadel, citing arson to get in. Plan falls apart.
- She makes no attempt to kill all shamans, and one or more of them murders the the rangers with battle magic. They don't set enough fires, and likely die.
And you saying that the delay would cause grobitown greenskins to join citadel greenskins implies that the citafel greenskins somehow anticipate our battle plans, which they have no way of knowing about.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Thanks for the clarification. Added to the list.
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
Good catch; we should be able to use some of the poison to increase our capabilities when casting the spell, now that we happen to be sitting on enough of it to distribute small amounts on an apparently strategic scale.
Sinsystems
Patron Librarian
Inserted tally
- Location
- Planet Earth
1)
[x] Plan Light Everything On Fire And Kill Things
-[x] Propose lighting as much of Grobi Town on fire as possible, using whatever combination of your personal sneaking, magic to help others sneak, ranger sneaking, halfling sneaking, top-class dwarven incendiary technology, artillery-hurled incendiaries, and other means the war council can cook up.
Emphasis mine, but considering your idea is literally included in the plan you're comparing it against, and more besides, it probably isn't better.
2) You are indeed free to assume such, you should not however be stating your asumption as fact, they do not have the same definitions.
4) FALSE, the plan includes a number of other sources of fires, with IIRC the main one at the entrance not being Mathilde's work.
5) Again, you are treating your assumption as fact. In case you can't remember the dictionary, they are not synonyms.
And in response to treating assumptions as fact, 1) I was the one that asked if it was flammable rather than assuming and then stating as fact that it was, while you assumed it wasn't. 2) With the fact other grobi structures in the region have burned on screen, I'd say its a pretty damn safe assumption anyways that they're flammable
- Pronouns
- He/Him
An excellent catch. That makes it much more viable.
- Location
- The Star Kingdom of Manticore
Ok.
However you still want to cast a spell after spending a long night of assassinations? We already told off a journeywoman for casting while exhausted.
Also one of your points earlier was having Kragg smite shamans trying to counter spell us. If you believe in Kragg why not ask him to just fill the area with lava. Then no one needs to go down into the goblin city.
You also believe that nothing can change in 18 hours when a great deal can change. Skaven could take the citadel. A new warboss could quickly rise to power. A tribe from one of the other Kraggs could push into the caldera and force more goblins into the citadel. There is a lot that could change. Striking quickly at weakness could be key to taking to the citadel with minimal causalities.
Basically you have countered one of my points but none of the other questions I have raised. Your plan has a lot of problems. Light everything on fire has a lot of problems. The big difference though that I see is that if something goes wrong with your plan it will go wrong in the magical sense because that is the whole focus of your plan. If something goes wrong with light everything on fire then it will go wrong in a mundane way since the focus is on mundane fire. I definitely know which way I want things to go wrong.
I'm not certain whether there is a real reason to continue. Doing so would get into endless (and rather pointless) minutae.
For '1' I would need to argue dwarf artilery vs rangers. Pointless as we do not have all the facts. For '2' I would need to once more quote things I've already quoted to You - which I don't really feel like doing. For '3' I would need to go into argument about greenskins. For '4' I would....
It's close to pointless. Each point would require whole discussion. Which would bring dozen more points to discuss. I'll be honest there, and apologies if it comes out as rude - it feels like You've imagined a scene, created plan for it and then started to imagine situation in a way that would support that plan. Effectively, to convince You I cannot just challenge the plan itself, but Your intrepretation of situation. That is not really possible. Deeper we would go, more point of disagreement would arise. To discuss things certain level of common ground is needed, and I cannot find that common ground there.
To be honest, I am tired and I have little desire to discuss it any longer. Let's just drop it, and agree to disagree.
- Location
- Russia
Material components for spells were introduced in the RPG and they are optional there. They make casting the spell easier. Quest uses completely different casting mechanics from the RPG, so the effect here is unknown, but there component provided a bonus on the scale of 10-15%. For example Burning Shadows has CN of 14 and black lotus provides +2 on casting check.
Last edited:
- Location
- Brazil
Havinng read the thirty fucking pages of discussion, I have to concur that Burning Shadows is the best bet, for a few reasons:
1) It's METAL AS FUCK.
2) Seriously, holy fucking shit it will look amazing.
3) I can think of no set up better than this. This is being smart: leveraging the spell's quirks (it affects one shadow, the shadow has to obey certain requisites) on a unique situation for an amazingly synergistic effect.
4) We can seriously kill and absolute shitload of orcs and goblins this way. The Citadel likely casts a shadow that goes all the way to the other edge of the Caldera, and it's a big honking fortress to boot. Essentially, cut a swathe of devastation in the very center of Grobbi Town. Even buildings should begin to fail and lose their protection as the acid eats at shoddy orc construction, as the effect goes on.
5) And while we can't game mastery, doin't incredibly awesome shit generally leads to good things, such as traits (which are hard to gain and extremely impactful) and stat gains.
6) Burning Shadows also sets the town on fire. Instead of going about it with torches like plebeians, we do like Mathilde won't to: point artillery their way and let loose. Using the many grudge throwers to lob big payloads of burning accelerant is far and wide a better method of setting fire to a town than doing it by hand.
7) We had Panoramia brew a ton of Black Lotus, which just so happens to be a focus for Burning Shadows. It's super neat.
[X] Plan Burning Shadows
@Alratan The one shaky part is assassination, if Boney confirms they do live in outskirts and are generally isolated, then good. If not, you know what would be fabulous for stopping enemy spellcasters? Kragg.
We can't order him, but what else would he be doing during all of this? And dispelling shit most likely doesn't spend precious runes.
1) It's METAL AS FUCK.
2) Seriously, holy fucking shit it will look amazing.
3) I can think of no set up better than this. This is being smart: leveraging the spell's quirks (it affects one shadow, the shadow has to obey certain requisites) on a unique situation for an amazingly synergistic effect.
4) We can seriously kill and absolute shitload of orcs and goblins this way. The Citadel likely casts a shadow that goes all the way to the other edge of the Caldera, and it's a big honking fortress to boot. Essentially, cut a swathe of devastation in the very center of Grobbi Town. Even buildings should begin to fail and lose their protection as the acid eats at shoddy orc construction, as the effect goes on.
5) And while we can't game mastery, doin't incredibly awesome shit generally leads to good things, such as traits (which are hard to gain and extremely impactful) and stat gains.
6) Burning Shadows also sets the town on fire. Instead of going about it with torches like plebeians, we do like Mathilde won't to: point artillery their way and let loose. Using the many grudge throwers to lob big payloads of burning accelerant is far and wide a better method of setting fire to a town than doing it by hand.
7) We had Panoramia brew a ton of Black Lotus, which just so happens to be a focus for Burning Shadows. It's super neat.
[X] Plan Burning Shadows
@Alratan The one shaky part is assassination, if Boney confirms they do live in outskirts and are generally isolated, then good. If not, you know what would be fabulous for stopping enemy spellcasters? Kragg.
We can't order him, but what else would he be doing during all of this? And dispelling shit most likely doesn't spend precious runes.
Last edited:
How do the halflings and rangers get into the caldera in your plan? More importantly, how do they get out when there might be greenskins in (literally) hot pursuit?
You've done exactly the same if not more. Fine, you don't want to defend the assumptions of your plan. Don't spend hours attacking the foundations of mine then. But fair enough. I won't reply to you again.
In terms of exhaustion, in the same way she was fine in the first Karak we took. In this case even more so, because it shouldn't be a long night. For one thing, she has her tireless shadowsteed to move her around. While in combat she won't tire as she'll have cast Aethyric Armour. For a second, I don't actually believe there are any surviving shaman. I through that in to placate people who were worried there would be. Even if there are she shouldn't be exhausted.
I think even your desired option of an uncontrollable firestorm in a confined basin with rangers, halfling, and a shadow wizard inside is a lot less dangerous than casting a spell which Mathilde can cast without a roll.
Things can change in eighteen hours, but not that much. It would take a lot of work for another force to mobilise to take the Citadel, and that takes time we're not giving them even if we wait a day. One and a half days is not enough time for an unprepared force to mobilise.
Last edited:
- Location
- United States of America
I mean, I'm not intrinsically against plan Burning Shadows, I just feel like it has a lot of flaws. Like waiting for another day.
Couldn't we just... cast it this afternoon so that the shadow of the Citadel is falling inside of the Citadel and specify that Greenskins are the ones affected but not anything else? Because we can determine who is and who is not affected by the spell, and so we could have the fight happen in the citadel while the entire enemy army is melting from our spell.
And any reinforcements would have to enter the Citadel and start melting as well, which serves functionally the same purpose of preventing them from helping, but we don't have to wait for a whole day.
Even if we can only affect a part of the Citadel this afternoon, affecting the only entrance would mean that it would still keep the other Greenskins away, while providing a wall between us and any prospective archers or shamans. Which means we don't need to go out hunting for any shamans that may or may not be out there.
I'm just not sure how the shadows would fall in the citadel this afternoon. Which I guess is another question to ask.
Couldn't we just... cast it this afternoon so that the shadow of the Citadel is falling inside of the Citadel and specify that Greenskins are the ones affected but not anything else? Because we can determine who is and who is not affected by the spell, and so we could have the fight happen in the citadel while the entire enemy army is melting from our spell.
And any reinforcements would have to enter the Citadel and start melting as well, which serves functionally the same purpose of preventing them from helping, but we don't have to wait for a whole day.
Even if we can only affect a part of the Citadel this afternoon, affecting the only entrance would mean that it would still keep the other Greenskins away, while providing a wall between us and any prospective archers or shamans. Which means we don't need to go out hunting for any shamans that may or may not be out there.
I'm just not sure how the shadows would fall in the citadel this afternoon. Which I guess is another question to ask.
- Location
- Brazil
- Location
- United States of America, Michigan
[X] Plan Light Everything On Fire And Kill Things
- Location
- Germany
I am starting to come around on Burning Shadows.
Just a question: What will Mathilde do if the Grobi just stay away and start to shoot arrows or throw spears?
I am not sure whether we need to actually mention this, but Mathilde should also have an idea of what to do if some Grobi manage to break through her Shadows. Maybe some guards a short distance behind her so she can retreat.
Just a question: What will Mathilde do if the Grobi just stay away and start to shoot arrows or throw spears?
I am not sure whether we need to actually mention this, but Mathilde should also have an idea of what to do if some Grobi manage to break through her Shadows. Maybe some guards a short distance behind her so she can retreat.