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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Well we've discovered that one of motives is revenge (assuming she's telling the truth). We've also seen that she feels threatened by us and we can resist her sounanigans. We do seem to have the upperhand and I'm pretty sure that our privacy field only gives us privacy it doesn't actually give us a real advantage other than blocking responses from her shades.

Basically I don't think it really hurts us to end the privacy field if it makes her feel better. Perhaps with a strong chastisement of you could have asked and if she does that again we'll have to consider her to be hostile.

I'm kind of curious about the confirmation about the range of her shades, I hadn't realized we had that information. Is it really world wide?

Anyway maybe we can continue the conversation after we lower the privacy field. Basically move to more innocuous conversation? Ask her what's in her drink, what other magical girls she's met, ways she's killed Kyubey, favorite foods, etc. You know basic stuff that all magical girls can relate to.


An alternative idea is using grief to communicate with Mami and have her call in our timestopper friend. We can stop time and then examine her in detail and then have Homura retreat back to where she was before. Simply done with a simple phonecall.
 
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Uugh. Can we just call for a timestop meeting and discussion, then? With Sayaka in attendance? If the group as a whole determines we have to act, then we will, if it doesn't then we won't. We can offload the moral decisionmaking to the NPCs, if we're so conflicted.
 
WorldSlayer said:
Basically I don't think it really hurts us to end the privacy field if it makes her feel better. Perhaps with a strong chastisement of you could have asked and if she does that again we'll have to consider her to be hostile.
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It'll still work on other people though. You really think she won't take a hostage? Like the blond one behind us? She's admitted to worse.
 
I personally believe that letting Rionna out right now would not be a good decision. Information aside I think that it gives her too much additional power and the ability to threaten our friends. She has made a potentially aggressive move against us, but since she just tried mind control instead of attacking she may still not want a direct confrontation. I still think we should wait for her to try and directly attack us before attacking her, just in case she has some sort of case-sensitive victory condition where she can't be defeated unless she attacks first.
 
Gadjo said:
Usually people do demand some justification for murder and enslavement! And she hasn't justified it at all! It's not arrogant to go "why did you murder all those people and keep them around as a personal slave army what the fuck".
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And Alucard from Hellsing's answer to that would be 'because they made themselves my enemy and that's what I do'. Only a lot more rude. I think it's clear we still don't have great context for that exactly because she refuses to provide it because she doesn't feel we have a right to demand answers.
Gadjo said:
I mean, she murdered a bunch of people, admitted some of them were good, and ripped their souls out. She's pretty black and white in the wrong here, no matter what her motivations were.
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Bottom line I think there's a dozen people I can think of off hand in fiction with similar backgrounds I'd call decent if not saints. I also think there's a strong line between 'I disapprove of their actions' and 'I'm murdering them now even though they came under parlay equivalent'.

Most of all, I'm wary of basing the decision on how scary she is or whether we think we've got an advantage at the moment. I'd bet half of Japan's meguca would jump to murdering Sabrina because she feels like witch, and I am very dubious about our advantage with Mami nearby and vulnerable.
 
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Vebyast said:
Kyubey doesn't convince uncontacted magical girls to wish for the power to send people to hell.
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He doesn't. Instead he convinces girls to wish for something, anything at all. Logically, a girl would be inclined to wish during a great emotional upheaval more than, I dunno, while eating a tart.

That's my take on it, at least.

And I still maintain that Wishibg to be a Scottish mime was an objectively better choice overall.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Uugh. Can we just call for a timestop meeting and discussion, then? With Sayaka in attendance? If the group as a whole determines we have to act, then we will, if it doesn't then we won't. We can offload the moral decisionmaking to the NPCs, if we're so conflicted.
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Who among the NPCs do you feel has superior moral decision-making in this situation? Not trash-talking Homura or Sayaka or even Mami, but a decision the thread isn't comfortable with isn't one that we're going to magically become comfortable with because the three of them think it's a good idea. Not when all three of them have had very bad ideas in other timelines.

A timestop meeting is fine, but not as a means of securing the 'right' answer. It should be done in order to try and convince them to help in whatever Sabrina determines the right solution should be.
 
Gadjo said:
I make no implications about your intelligence, but your argument does you no favors. Also, KB may be a son of a bitch, but he can't just excuse all her crimes and then just letting her go murder more people, no matter who's fault it is.
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Your argument isn't doing any you any favors either.

Firnagzen said:
As a general rule, the answers are hidden in the general direction of being kind, emphatic, and so forth. So continuing to be nice tends to have you stumble over the answers, as has happened before. Quite simply: the answers are in the direction of being excellent to people. They're not in the direction of being Hard Girls Making Hard Choices.
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You go against all of this.
 
Gadjo said:
It'll still work on other people though. You really think she won't take a hostage? Like the blond one behind us? She's admitted to worse.
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Do you mean her soul abilities work on other people? In that case the privacy field won't stop her from being able to effect Mami. She may in fact escalate if we don't let her go.


Briefvoice said:
Who among the NPCs do you feel has superior moral decision-making in this situation? Not trash-talking Homura or Sayaka or even Mami, but a decision the thread isn't comfortable with isn't one that we're going to magically become comfortable with because the three of them think it's a good idea. Not when all three of them have had very bad ideas in other timelines.

A timestop meeting is fine, but not as a means of securing the 'right' answer. It should be done in order to try and convince them to help in whatever Sabrina determines the right solution should be.
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Timestop might be useful just for the chance for some analysis (her body, her soul, her enchantments, her shades, whatever we can get a look at) or making a soul protection device or lie detector enchantment.

It's a powerful trump card and with an opponent as potentially dangerous as Crazy Soul Lady we shouldn't hesitate to take advantage.
 
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Riona already attacked un once: there's no guarantee she won't do it again. Making a condition of Riona not using magic against anyone effectively meaningless because she's untrustworthy.


LendvaV said:
You go against all of this.
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I don't see an "always", just "as a general rule": as in, it works more often than not but still sometimes it won't work.
 
[X] Agree to end the conversation, but not before calling Riona out on everything: she's crossed a lot of lines—showing up in your territory without warning, permission, or excuse, trying to mind control you without provocation, making demands in exchange for nothing...
-[X] Meanwhile, call Mami via grief for an emergency timestop meeting.
[X] On timestop, make sure the whole group (Homura, Mami and Sayaka) is in the meeting.
[X] Discuss the situation in timestop with Homura, Mami, and Sayaka.

This seems like a good way forward actually, I think we should let the council render judgement rather than taking the proverbial law into our own hands. Give Everyone a chance to weigh in.

Also having some voices from outside Sabrina's head might be worthwhile additions to the conversation.
 
Filraen said:
Riona already attacked un once: there's no guarantee she won't do it again. Making a condition of Riona not using magic against anyone effectively meaningless because she's untrustworthy.
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Actually I don't think she's said any lies or shown herself to be untrustworthy.

Dangerous, morally bankrupt and volatile yes. But nothing we've seen makes her implicitly untrustworthy.

Which doesn't mean we should really trust her (Dangerous, morally bankrupt and volatile) but I think if she makes a promise and we watch her carefully she probably won't try to break her word.
 
drake_azathoth said:
And Alucard from Hellsing's answer to that would be 'because they made themselves my enemy and that's what I do'. Only a lot more rude. I think it's clear we still don't have great context for that.
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And he's fucking evil! It's a black comedy kind of show, he's never ever meant to be better than "is killing terrible people, but is also a terrible monster of a person"
LendvaV said:
Your argument isn't doing any you any favors either.



You go against all of this.
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Ah ye, sorry for being perhaps a little insistent that we save innocent people we haven't met from a serial killer, I'm a little selfish like that.
WorldSlayer said:
Do you mean her soul abilities work on other people? In that case the privacy field won't stop her from being able to effect Mami. She may in fact escalate if we don't let her go.
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I'm saying the moment we do let her go, she can affect Mami. And she would. Because she's evil.

sigh Okay, I'm just gonna lay out my point and go, because arguing with you people is like arguing with a brick wall. A brick wall that does nothing but make apologies for serial killers.

Riona has done bad things. Confirmed by GM, unassailable. She's also not sorry. Also confirmed. She cannot be redeemed if she doesn't feel bad for what she did. Right now, she doesn't give a shit, is mad that we can corner her, and seems to care for nothing but power. Tell me, what does someone who wants to feel powerful do when confronted with someone who can beat them? Leave? No. They could come and beat them. That doesn't make them feel powerful. They'll make sure they can't beat them. By say, taking hostages, or killing them. Letting her go is the stupidest idea since "witch out for superpowers" and it simply cannot end well and it shows a critical misreading of practically everything.

I shouldn't even need to argue that it'd be foolish. That it'd hurt Sabrina and the people she cares about. Riona is not just a murderer. In this line of work, that's common enough you can generally feel comfortable simply asking them to stop at least. But she's been enslaving the souls of the damned, admitting she's done it to good people, and has announced that she has no intentions of stopping, and won't even continue to talk to us about it. Letting her go to just continue... that is just wrong on a level that makes me tempted to call you all murderhobos, except a murderhobo usually has the self-preservation instincts necessary to notice when they've made an enemy who has every reason to kill them.

You try to excuse this with the quest ideas of being kind to people, of having hope, but how kind is it to let her continue killing and enslaving? What about those people? Were we kind to them too? Shall we meet them for tea in their hellish undeath to apologize? Sometimes to help people, certain bad people have to be stopped, by force if they will not surrender their ways. Because their actions hurt lots of people. This is not complicated morality. Batman gets this. Hell, Superman gets this, he beats people up for being evil all the time. And that's literally simple comic book scenarios with villains usually a lot greyer than she is.

Anyway, Imma leave you be. I don't know who you're playing as, but the Sabrina I knew wouldn't have let a serial killer go on the idea that she "can't judge her".
 
Spectral Waltz said:
[X] Agree to end the conversation, but not before calling Riona out on everything: she's crossed a lot of lines—showing up in your territory without warning, permission, or excuse, trying to mind control you without provocation, making demands in exchange for nothing...
-[X] Meanwhile, call Mami via grief for an emergency timestop meeting.
[X] On timestop, make sure the whole group (Homura, Mami and Sayaka) is in the meeting.
[X] Discuss the situation in timestop with Homura, Mami, and Sayaka.

This seems like a good way forward actually, I think we should let the council render judgement rather than taking the proverbial law into our own hands. Give Everyone a chance to weigh in.

Also having some voices from outside Sabrina's head might be worthwhile additions to the conversation.
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Going to say, mind control without provocation is just wrong. If she felt we were imprisoning her in the isolation field, and keeping her in a negotiation she wanted nothing more to do with, then it was provoked and she'd feel it was justified.

Her demand was to be let go. We've given her nothing. There's nothing to exchange but something that should've been hers all along by right.

So the whole calling out on Riona's actions here just seems to be a misstep to me.
 
Okay, someone please snap me out of my paranoia:
Firnagzen said:
"I live well enough," Rionna says, glancing about in seeming irritation. You watch the way her eyes track down to where your interdiction bubble intersects with the bedsheet, and then across to Mami, and then you.

The back of your neck prickles. You can't help it, but you don't let it show.
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Did Rionna just try to shade Mami? Or is she thinking about doing it once the field drops?
 
I think we're mostly in agreement to have a timestop meeting.

Muramasa said:
Her demand was to be let go. We've given her nothing. There's nothing to exchange but something that should've been hers all along by right.

So the whole calling out on Riona's actions here just seems to be a misstep to me.
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While there might have been provocation, so at least some of that vote could be contested:
Waltz said:
trying to mind control you without provocation
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I would still say her trying to mind control us away was wrong, and think we should not let her brush this off. Not using it as an excuse to start a fight, not trying to make her pay overly much for it, but at least I think we can call her out and use it as a point as for why we're demanding she promise to not hurt or use magic against anyone.

And freedom to enter and roam Mitakihara was not hers. She's in our territory. She arrived, only announced herself as she did, and made demands.

defenestrator said:
Okay, someone please snap me out of my paranoia:

Did Rionna just try to shade Mami? Or is she thinking about doing it once the field drops?
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We would've noticed if she tried to use magic.

Riona knows Mami's more aware than she lets up.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Uugh. Can we just call for a timestop meeting and discussion, then? With Sayaka in attendance? If the group as a whole determines we have to act, then we will, if it doesn't then we won't. We can offload the moral decisionmaking to the NPCs, if we're so conflicted.
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I think we can mostly all agree to have a timestop meeting.

If everyone else decides to gank Riona, it doesn't change much whether we have the meeting now or after leaving. We can gank Riona either way?

defenestrator said:
Also, looking at the brightside, at least we know now that Sabrina has some passive defenses against mind control...?
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A weird soul.

Spectral Waltz said:
[X] On timestop, make sure the whole group (Homura, Mami and Sayaka) is in the meeting.
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I'd like to consider, if we're going to the trouble of getting Sayaka, also getting O&K, so we can get some Anti Magic Enchantments from Kirika, which she can make while we explain things.
 
Firnagzen said:
You open your mouth to speak, but she barrels on. "You want to know? I raised my sister's killer," she snarls. "I hate her. I hate her. I want justice, I want my sister back, but I cannae. I can't bring her back. You can't."
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Rionna wished for a power that she could use to torture her enemies. She got it.

All you people that were asking for more clarification on the state of her shades, here it is: They're suffering. They're suffering right now and they're suffering as much as Rionna can make them suffer. She knows what she wanted when she wished and Wishes always come true.

The "she's not doing anything bad right now, we can deal with her later" or "she isn't enslaving people" arguments falls flat on their face. When you discover that a serial killer's basement is additionally full of people chained to the wall being tortured continuously, you don't say "she's not doing anything bad right now, we can deal with her later". You don't say "she won't kidnap or murder anyone else now that we're watching her". You do something to minimize ongoing suffering.
Firnagzen said:
And that said - no, she didn't try to turn you into a Shade. That would have been, uh. More noticeable.
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In other words, she can't shade us instantly.

[x] Ensure she doesn't leave this bubble under her own power, either by calling a meeting and then alpha-striking her or by alpha-striking her right now.
 
(EDIT: Sorry for repost, I accidentally deleted the original as I was editing it)

Context:
[ ] Agree to end the conversation, but not before calling Riona out on everything: she's crossed a lot of lines—showing up in your territory without warning, permission, or excuse, trying to mind control you without provocation, making demands in exchange for nothing...
-[ ] Meanwhile, call Mami via grief for an emergency timestop meeting.

Muramasa said:
Going to say, mind control without provocation is just wrong. If she felt we were imprisoning her in the isolation field, and keeping her in a negotiation she wanted nothing more to do with, then it was provoked and she'd feel it was justified.

Her demand was to be let go. We've given her nothing. There's nothing to exchange but something that should've been hers all along by right.

So the whole calling out on Riona's actions here just seems to be a misstep to me.
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It's intended to be a distraction so Riona doesn't realize we're setting up the timestop. In fact, I expect being interrupted by Homura not even four words in.

What else to say to her instead? I'm open to suggestions.
 
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So, just to put out there again, clearly:

At this point I see the chances of working with Riona as awfully dim.

Going by what she's said, I think anti-magicking Riona will cause her shades to fade, so with this new information we obtained, I'd say it would be doing her a favor, morally speaking. So that takes away my objections against anti-magicking her.

I'm on boat with getting as much as we can out of her, then anti-magicking her and throwing her in prison.

Let her be for now, but make sure she does not leave Mitakihara.
 
Onmur said:
[X] Promise agree to end the meeting. Because you're sick of it, not because she's asking.

[X] But first:
-[X] Call her out. On everything. Trying to use magic on you, threatening you, baiting you, arriving unnanounced, everything.
--[X] Use this.
-[X] Get her to agree to concessions, as many as you can get:
--[X] Priority: Arrange another meeting before she leaves (morning?).
--[X] She'll stay confined within this room for the duration of her stay.
--[X] She'll answer questions, now or at that later meeting, about:
---[X] Our Soul.
---[X] Clear Seeds.
---[X] Wish Rejection.
---[X] The Feather.
---[X] How the fuck is her name spelled.

[X] Once Riona agrees to everything you can get her to, warn her to not try that again and dismiss the Privacy Field.
-[X] Let Mami know before you dismiss the Field.
-[X] Watch out in case Riona tries to pull something.

[X] Get out. Timestop meeting. Mami hugs.
-[X] Get Sayaka, Oriko and Kirika. This is important.
-[X] Ask Kirika to make Anti Magic Enchantments for our group's use while you talk.
-[X] Explain everything that can be explained about what just happened.

I'd like everyone's reactions and opinions before deciding an actual course of action.
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Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but are we sure that Homura is going to be okay with having Oriko and Kirika in timestop?
 
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